"When raiding becomes a job" re: stuff like farming carapaces like Munkus mentioned is pretty extreme, it's only like world-first type guilds who even bother doing that shit most of the time. However it makes me mad when people say "I want to raid but I don't want to take it seriously"... sure complain about how Blizzard makes the rewards too random, or farming for potions take too much time, or whatever. But that IS how the game works, and if you want to play that part of the game, that's how you play. You can do it with friends, and try not to invite assholes, or try to maintain a casual schedule, sure. But if everyone's trying really hard to learn a new boss, and they all have elixirs or flasks, and you're there with no buffs and a green weapon because "lol it's a game"? That's not fair to those other people at all. Fortunately some people understand this and that's WHY they don't raid. Others just seem angry that the man is keeping them down. (I'm not just talking about people on this forum, either, but sometimes it applies.)
Well, I think it's reasonable for players to want raiding to be changed, so that they get to see the endgame content, without all the extra bullshit thrown in. I don’t even know how this could be done, to my standards at least, because simply playing on a set schedule bothers me and to not have that would probably mean much shorter raids, or raids that were far more segmented like Nax's 4 wings.
I'd just like to point out that I helped Magus back when elites were still elites. /flex
Did you do it barefoot while walking uphill both ways?
IN THE SNOW
WEATHER EFFECTS ALL THE WAY UP
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited November 2007
That's most of my beef with raiding; it's sheer exclusionary nature. The whole "burning crusade" thing, where you have a showdown with Illidan? Yeah, good luck ever seeing it unless you're in a bleeding-edge raiding guild. I'd just like to have exposure to some of these things. Sure, the loot would be nice too, but hell, just getting to go through it and being a part of, say, the Illidan fight or even the Kael'thas battle with the temp. legendaries would be fun.
But no, "if you're not part of 'raiding is serious business', then fuck you" apparently.
Thankfully Blizzard is finally giving the non-raiders quite a bit to do with their time (dailies, arenas, more 5-10 man stuff, etc), so it's less of an issue than it was pre-BC.
Well, I think it's reasonable for players to want raiding to be changed, so that they get to see the endgame content, without all the extra bullshit thrown in. I don’t even know how this could be done, to my standards at least, because simply playing on a set schedule bothers me and to not have that would probably mean much shorter raids, or raids that were far more segmented like Nax's 4 wings.
No I agree, well, not about the schedule thing but that the way raids work would have to be changed a lot for it to be more accessible. I think they've come a long way with Kara and ZA at least. People who can't or won't raid five nights a week can still have some fun and success in those instances. On the other hand I'm not sure if cutting from 40 to 25 made it easier or harder to organize people around a schedule. It makes it less like a work force and more like playing with friends, but every single person is so much more valuable that when a few people are busy one week you're fucked.
No I agree, well, not about the schedule thing but that the way raids work would have to be changed a lot for it to be more accessible. I think they've come a long way with Kara and ZA at least. People who can't or won't raid five nights a week can still have some fun and success in those instances. On the other hand I'm not sure if cutting from 40 to 25 made it easier or harder to organize people around a schedule. It makes it less like a work force and more like playing with friends, but every single person is so much more valuable that when a few people are busy one week you're fucked.
I might not even say that I want raiding, I mainly just want the levelling experience to continue, and if that can't, thenI want the level 70 5-man experience to continue. Now this can certainly include 10 people, as it did in UBRS, but that was good because you could pug it. I guess what I would like is continually releasing content that straddles a line between puggable and requiring a guild. The time requirements of current raids are just crazy, or rather they're crazy when they're basically 90% of all new content.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited November 2007
I think making more 10 man content is the way things should go. 10 mans are accessible to most guilds while they can still be challenging. Blizzard won't drop stuff like BT because of the need for content for high end guilds (Presumably, because of Tigole's influence), but ZA gives smaller, less regimented guilds something to shoot for once Prince goes down.
Is the Sunwell going to contain a new 10 man instance? I thought I remember hearing that it won't just be another 25-man only place, but I don't remember the details. That would be nice, though.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Well, I think it's reasonable for players to want raiding to be changed, so that they get to see the endgame content, without all the extra bullshit thrown in. I don’t even know how this could be done, to my standards at least, because simply playing on a set schedule bothers me and to not have that would probably mean much shorter raids, or raids that were far more segmented like Nax's 4 wings.
No I agree, well, not about the schedule thing but that the way raids work would have to be changed a lot for it to be more accessible. I think they've come a long way with Kara and ZA at least. People who can't or won't raid five nights a week can still have some fun and success in those instances. On the other hand I'm not sure if cutting from 40 to 25 made it easier or harder to organize people around a schedule. It makes it less like a work force and more like playing with friends, but every single person is so much more valuable that when a few people are busy one week you're fucked.
Some of it is understanding that having a little extra depth in each class can help with sanity issues. If I need to take a mental health week, I can do so without fucking the raid over. And it helps with preventing burn out. It also helps that sometimes we just take a week off to just fuck around. You can raid, and have a life and be sane. But people get this image that raiding has to be "OMG 7 days a week, 8 hours a day, 50 DKP minus!" and it really, really doesn't have to be.
I do think they need to add a new and possibly more difficult five-man every time they add a new twenty-five. Most of the work will already be done anyway, design-wise. It'd keep the non-raiders happy without much additional effort on their part.
I think making more 10 man content is the way things should go. 10 mans are accessible to most guilds while they can still be challenging. Blizzard won't drop stuff like BT because of the need for content for high end guilds (Presumably, because of Tigole's influence), but ZA gives smaller, less regimented guilds something to shoot for once Prince goes down.
Screw the high end guilds. The expansion launched with 7 5-mans and 5 raids, that's already probably too close. They've now released two more raids making the ratio tied. That seems completely nuts to me, expecially since you spend so much more time on one raid instance than a 5-man, there's less need for these. It may be more cost effective, for the amount of time that one person gets out of a raid, but considering how little of the playerbase has really progressed past Kara, I think it's a total shaft against the majority of players.
I do think they need to add a new and possibly more difficult five-man every time they add a new twenty-five. Most of the work will already be done anyway, design-wise. It'd keep the non-raiders happy without much additional effort on their part.
Exactly. They ought to do this, at a minimum, and they had this precedent set with the release of the expansion, and for some reason totally dropped the ball with BT.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Screw the high end guilds. The expansion launched with 7 5-mans and 5 raids, that's already probably too close. They've now released two more raids making the ratio tied. That seems completely nuts to me, expecially since you spend so much more time on one raid instance than a 5-man, there's less need for these. It may be more cost effective, for the amount of time that one person gets out of a raid, but considering how little of the playerbase has really progressed past Kara, I think it's a total shaft against the majority of players.
Hey, no argument here, but I don't think it's realistic to expect Blizzard to drop the high end raiding culture. And frankly, does it even matter? Who cares what time they waste on 25 man raids so long as 10 man and 5 man content continues to be released?
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I think making more 10 man content is the way things should go. 10 mans are accessible to most guilds while they can still be challenging. Blizzard won't drop stuff like BT because of the need for content for high end guilds (Presumably, because of Tigole's influence), but ZA gives smaller, less regimented guilds something to shoot for once Prince goes down.
Screw the high end guilds. The expansion launched with 7 5-mans and 5 raids, that's already probably too close. They've now released two more raids making the ratio tied. That seems completely nuts to me, expecially since you spend so much more time on one raid instance than a 5-man, there's less need for these. It may be more cost effective, for the amount of time that one person gets out of a raid, but considering how little of the playerbase has really progressed past Kara, I think it's a total shaft against the majority of players.
I do think they need to add a new and possibly more difficult five-man every time they add a new twenty-five. Most of the work will already be done anyway, design-wise. It'd keep the non-raiders happy without much additional effort on their part.
Exactly. They ought to do this, at a minimum, and they had this precedent set with the release of the expansion, and for some reason totally dropped the ball with BT.
Actually, if you look, there is parity between five and 25 mans. The Crypts/Terrokar instances have no 25 man attached.
Hey, no argument here, but I don't think it's realistic to expect Blizzard to drop the high end raiding culture. And frankly, does it even matter? Who cares what time they waste on 25 man raids so long as 10 man and 5 man content continues to be released?
It matters because I'd rather they spend resources on developing content for the majority of the playerbase instead of neglecting it.
Actually, if you look, there is parity between five and 25 mans. The Crypts/Terrokar instances have no 25 man attached.
Right, but there was precedent in SSC and TK, and seeing as it's a great idea, that they are doing again with the Sunwell, I think they dropped the ball by not starting it as an implemented design policy with BT.
That's most of my beef with raiding; it's sheer exclusionary nature. The whole "burning crusade" thing, where you have a showdown with Illidan? Yeah, good luck ever seeing it unless you're in a bleeding-edge raiding guild. I'd just like to have exposure to some of these things. Sure, the loot would be nice too, but hell, just getting to go through it and being a part of, say, the Illidan fight or even the Kael'thas battle with the temp. legendaries would be fun.
But no, "if you're not part of 'raiding is serious business', then fuck you" apparently.
Thankfully Blizzard is finally giving the non-raiders quite a bit to do with their time (dailies, arenas, more 5-10 man stuff, etc), so it's less of an issue than it was pre-BC.
Man after two or so months you are going to see an explosion of guilds getting their BT on.
Nerfed Kael, Vashj isn't too bad, ZA/Badge/t6 equivilent PVP loot is going to shoot average/above average guilds into BT like a goddamn rocket launcher.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
It matters because I'd rather they spend resources on developing content for the majority of the playerbase instead of neglecting it.
That's why I said "So long as..." If you're getting your 5 and 10 man content, will you still complain about the 25 man raids being released? Because it sounds like yes, you will and you would prefer that end game raiders are neglected in turn instead of content being provided across the board.
Sorry, didn't read carefully enough. Of course the issue here is that 5 man content has not been released, and more specifically, I think 5-man content should have more development than raids. I think the development should be proportional to the playerbase, and the playerbase tells me that, as raiders make up minority, raid content should not be greater than 5-man(or rather, puggable) content.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Hey, no argument here, but I don't think it's realistic to expect Blizzard to drop the high end raiding culture. And frankly, does it even matter? Who cares what time they waste on 25 man raids so long as 10 man and 5 man content continues to be released?
It matters because I'd rather they spend resources on developing content for the majority of the playerbase instead of neglecting it.
Actually, if you look, there is parity between five and 25 mans. The Crypts/Terrokar instances have no 25 man attached.
Right, but there was precedent in SSC and TK, and seeing as it's a great idea, that they are doing again with the Sunwell, I think they dropped the ball by not starting it as an implemented design policy with BT.
1.8 million raiders in 10 and 25 man instances. A third of those are in SSC/TK. While it's not a majority of the player base, it is enough to deserve some development work.
1.8 million raiders in 10 and 25 man instances. A third of those are in SSC/TK. While it's not a majority of the player base, it is enough to deserve some development work.
I remember seeing the stats related to Karazhan, but what I don't remember is any clear indication that the people who had been in Karazhan, did so regularly.
But as the past three(my numbers were off earlier, I forgot Hyjal, so raids actually outnumber the 5 mans) instance releases have shown, raiding is getting the greater portion of the development work.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
1.8 million raiders in 10 and 25 man instances. A third of those are in SSC/TK. While it's not a majority of the player base, it is enough to deserve some development work.
I remember seeing the stats related to Karazhan, but what I don't remember is any clear indication that the people who had been in Karazhan, did so regularly.
But as the past three(my numbers were off earlier, I forgot Hyjal, so raids actually outnumber the 5 mans) instance releases have shown, raiding is getting the greater portion of the development work.
By one instance groupping. That doesn't count the sheer number of daily quests that have been added and the new heroic loots. The casuals haven't been ignored or lacked for development time.
1.8 million raiders in 10 and 25 man instances. A third of those are in SSC/TK. While it's not a majority of the player base, it is enough to deserve some development work.
I remember seeing the stats related to Karazhan, but what I don't remember is any clear indication that the people who had been in Karazhan, did so regularly.
But as the past three(my numbers were off earlier, I forgot Hyjal, so raids actually outnumber the 5 mans) instance releases have shown, raiding is getting the greater portion of the development work.
By one instance groupping. That doesn't count the sheer number of daily quests that have been added and the new heroic loots. The casuals haven't been ignored or lacked for development time.
I'd say the dailies are just as much targeted to the raiders, as a very quick way to build cash for consumables. Daily quests aren't group oriented, and they're inserted into the same old environments, whereas instances are an opportunity to give you actual challenges, in a new setting.
Just had an excellently entertaining Heroic Shattered Halls run. Had just a single wipe (healer and warlock were out of position and died on first Blade Dance) and still finished in under an hour. We also used one of those wacky group compositions, DPS being a warlock, an arms warrior, and a ret paladin. No CC necessary, just mowed the place down. Total prizes: 7 badges (two extra badge-holding bosses on Heroic, plus two more from daily heroic quest) and 50g in quest rewards (rescued the prisoners in the back, too).
That's most of my beef with raiding; it's sheer exclusionary nature. The whole "burning crusade" thing, where you have a showdown with Illidan? Yeah, good luck ever seeing it unless you're in a bleeding-edge raiding guild. I'd just like to have exposure to some of these things. Sure, the loot would be nice too, but hell, just getting to go through it and being a part of, say, the Illidan fight or even the Kael'thas battle with the temp. legendaries would be fun.
But no, "if you're not part of 'raiding is serious business', then fuck you" apparently.
Thankfully Blizzard is finally giving the non-raiders quite a bit to do with their time (dailies, arenas, more 5-10 man stuff, etc), so it's less of an issue than it was pre-BC.
Man after two or so months you are going to see an explosion of guilds getting their BT on.
Nerfed Kael, Vashj isn't too bad, ZA/Badge/t6 equivilent PVP loot is going to shoot average/above average guilds into BT like a goddamn rocket launcher.
From what I've seen, Vashj and Kael are still going to far more difficult than most other bosses in Burning Crusade. It's true they'll be easier; Vashj becomes much easier with better DPS, and Kael has turned into mostly a coordination fight (instead of a coordination fight with a white-knuckled DPS check thrown in at the beginning). They'll still both be real ballbreakers, though, for raids unwilling or unable to step up their level of dedication, preparation, and coordination.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
1.8 million raiders in 10 and 25 man instances. A third of those are in SSC/TK. While it's not a majority of the player base, it is enough to deserve some development work.
I remember seeing the stats related to Karazhan, but what I don't remember is any clear indication that the people who had been in Karazhan, did so regularly.
But as the past three(my numbers were off earlier, I forgot Hyjal, so raids actually outnumber the 5 mans) instance releases have shown, raiding is getting the greater portion of the development work.
By one instance groupping. That doesn't count the sheer number of daily quests that have been added and the new heroic loots. The casuals haven't been ignored or lacked for development time.
I'd say the dailies are just as much targeted to the raiders, as a very quick way to build cash for consumables. Daily quests aren't group oriented, and they're inserted into the same old environments, whereas instances are an opportunity to give you actual challenges, in a new setting.
And the heroic/instance dailies? The problem with defining the daily rep grinds as for raiders, is that the only benfit to raiders is the money. Where as casual players get the money and the rep. The heroic/instance dailies for sure are not for raiders. In terms of money they just don't generate enough. And Kara is slowly sliding into the casual camp as people learn it, in the same way the UBRS became puggable. The only issue with Kara being casual is the time aspect, and that is something ZA will fix.
Septus, are you defining casual content as only five mans because raiders can do anything else too?
I'm not 100% convinced that ZA is really for people who are done with Kara, at this point. People in T6 gear seem to be happy with it as a challenge (the timed event), but the latter half seems rough on groups with Kara gear. And with only one piece of loot dropping per boss, it's not like they'll be getting ZA loot that will help them with the latter bosses very quickly (and, bad loot luck can strike here as well... the only loot we've gotten off the bear boss so far is multiple pally healing helms for the one pally in our group).
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I'm not 100% convinced that ZA is really for people who are done with Kara, at this point. People in T6 gear seem to be happy with it as a challenge (the timed event), but the latter half seems rough on groups with Kara gear. And with only one piece of loot dropping per boss, it's not like they'll be getting ZA loot that will help them with the latter bosses very quickly (and, bad loot luck can strike here as well... the only loot we've gotten off the bear boss so far is multiple pally healing helms for the one pally in our group).
Over time it will get easier from mudflation, more players experiencing the events, and better strats being worked out. Remember that UBRS was a brutal instance in it's day and by the end of vanilla wow it was a joke.
1.8 million raiders in 10 and 25 man instances. A third of those are in SSC/TK. While it's not a majority of the player base, it is enough to deserve some development work.
I remember seeing the stats related to Karazhan, but what I don't remember is any clear indication that the people who had been in Karazhan, did so regularly.
But as the past three(my numbers were off earlier, I forgot Hyjal, so raids actually outnumber the 5 mans) instance releases have shown, raiding is getting the greater portion of the development work.
By one instance groupping. That doesn't count the sheer number of daily quests that have been added and the new heroic loots. The casuals haven't been ignored or lacked for development time.
I'd say the dailies are just as much targeted to the raiders, as a very quick way to build cash for consumables. Daily quests aren't group oriented, and they're inserted into the same old environments, whereas instances are an opportunity to give you actual challenges, in a new setting.
And the heroic/instance dailies? The problem with defining the daily rep grinds as for raiders, is that the only benfit to raiders is the money. Where as casual players get the money and the rep. The heroic/instance dailies for sure are not for raiders. In terms of money they just don't generate enough. And Kara is slowly sliding into the casual camp as people learn it, in the same way the UBRS became puggable. The only issue with Kara being casual is the time aspect, and that is something ZA will fix.
Septus, are you defining casual content as only five mans because raiders can do anything else too?
Heroic dailies? You mean quests that have you doing the same thing that people have been doing since April? That's not content, at all. Ogri'la is content, because there's at least a veneer of lore to it, and a new town etc. I know for sure that my old guild had people running heroics on occasion(total wow playtime was the factor here, not worthiness of the instances) even while going through SSC.
I'd be very surprised to ever see Kara be what UBRS was. UBRS had basically zero class requirements other than general dps/healing/tanking, Kara has very specific class requirements that change between bosses. There's also a relatively high gear requirement for Prince and Curator, whereas people could run UBRS in greens and blues.
I'm definining non-raid instances, not as specifically 5 mans, but not including Kara and ZA because, well, they're "raids" in the sense of being difficult with gear checks and requiring lots of coordination. Non-raid content is basically by definition all inclusive, raids are exclusive like halfmex said. I guarantee raiders would still be wanting to run completely new 5 man instances, at least briefly, simply because it's different. Non-raiders never get to see the raid instances.
I would love to see more 5mans. I still have not gotten to raid aside from one night, where I was just filling a spot.
Perhaps even 10 man instance's, that aren't raids. That way people get experience coordinating with more than just 5 people. But aren't locked into a group, or require 5+ hours to clear, or require a bunch of consumeables. The last boss could drop a heroic level epic on normal, and then on heroic more than one boss can drop epics or something. I don't know, it's probably a stupid idea.
EDIT: I think Septus just said what I said, except better.
And with only one piece of loot dropping per boss, it's not like they'll be getting ZA loot that will help them with the latter bosses very quickly (and, bad loot luck can strike here as well... the only loot we've gotten off the bear boss so far is multiple pally healing helms for the one pally in our group).
Wait, am I insane, or don't 2 pieces drop from each Karazhan boss, with The Prince dropping 3?
Or is that "1 per boss, plus something extra if you do the timed event"?
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
I guarantee raiders would still be wanting to run completely new 5 man instances, at least briefly, simply because it's different. Non-raiders never get to see the raid instances.
This is the core issue, and one that continues to be an annoyance to me to this day. Every instance up to level 60 was 5-mannable and puggable. Then you hit 60 and that all changes drastically for no real reason.
Imagine for a second what WoW would be like if every instance had a five person limit. I'm talking everything from Ragefire/Stockades to Black Temple. If everyone in the game had the ability to access these instances. I can't conceive of how that would be a negative thing. Everyone gets a chance to see this content that the developers apparently work so hard on, versus a smaller chunk of the populace.
That's the thing; it was always so jarring for me to go from 'everything's puggable' to 'better be a raid guild from here on out, boy' in the span of one level. Why even do it that way? What's to be gained by excluding ANY number of your populace, let alone a significant number of it, from experiencing your game? It just makes no sense. Why split your dev team's efforts, having them develop content for two decidedly differently-abled groups of players, when you could just design content that everyone can access? Then you could nullify this whole raider/casual/hardcore/flabbitybloo debate from the get-go. After that, you could just focus on the PvP whiners, but that's a whole other can of worms...
I think a problem with end-game raiding is how the guild is run. 99% of guilds want to clear Kara or whatnot in one night which at first is 5-6 hours. I can't focus that much time at once; I'm a full time pre-med student and a competitive powerlifter. I'm also a National Guardsmen which means 2-3 weekends a month I am gone (only 1 normally but we're training up for Iraq in January). I'm in class full time and in the gym before and after class. You could say I'm not dedicated to WoW but I'm sure I could raid if it was spread to 2-3 hours a night across multiple nights instead of huge sessions 1 or 2 nights a week.
IMO, the act of raiding has little to do with how fun or not fun it is. It's all about the folks you are in there with, which is why 40 mans were awful and 25 mans aren't much better. I wish they'd make alot more 10 man raids with similar time requirements like ZA (aka, less than Kara).
And with only one piece of loot dropping per boss, it's not like they'll be getting ZA loot that will help them with the latter bosses very quickly (and, bad loot luck can strike here as well... the only loot we've gotten off the bear boss so far is multiple pally healing helms for the one pally in our group).
Wait, am I insane, or don't 2 pieces drop from each Karazhan boss, with The Prince dropping 3?
Or is that "1 per boss, plus something extra if you do the timed event"?
In ZA, bosses drop 1 epic (well, the four bosses before Hex Lord, anyway), plus something from the chest if you're in under the time limit. In compensation, you can run ZA twice a week, at least.
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Well, I think it's reasonable for players to want raiding to be changed, so that they get to see the endgame content, without all the extra bullshit thrown in. I don’t even know how this could be done, to my standards at least, because simply playing on a set schedule bothers me and to not have that would probably mean much shorter raids, or raids that were far more segmented like Nax's 4 wings.
Winnar!
Did you do it barefoot while walking uphill both ways?
IN THE SNOW
WEATHER EFFECTS ALL THE WAY UP
But no, "if you're not part of 'raiding is serious business', then fuck you" apparently.
Thankfully Blizzard is finally giving the non-raiders quite a bit to do with their time (dailies, arenas, more 5-10 man stuff, etc), so it's less of an issue than it was pre-BC.
No I agree, well, not about the schedule thing but that the way raids work would have to be changed a lot for it to be more accessible. I think they've come a long way with Kara and ZA at least. People who can't or won't raid five nights a week can still have some fun and success in those instances. On the other hand I'm not sure if cutting from 40 to 25 made it easier or harder to organize people around a schedule. It makes it less like a work force and more like playing with friends, but every single person is so much more valuable that when a few people are busy one week you're fucked.
I might not even say that I want raiding, I mainly just want the levelling experience to continue, and if that can't, thenI want the level 70 5-man experience to continue. Now this can certainly include 10 people, as it did in UBRS, but that was good because you could pug it. I guess what I would like is continually releasing content that straddles a line between puggable and requiring a guild. The time requirements of current raids are just crazy, or rather they're crazy when they're basically 90% of all new content.
Some of it is understanding that having a little extra depth in each class can help with sanity issues. If I need to take a mental health week, I can do so without fucking the raid over. And it helps with preventing burn out. It also helps that sometimes we just take a week off to just fuck around. You can raid, and have a life and be sane. But people get this image that raiding has to be "OMG 7 days a week, 8 hours a day, 50 DKP minus!" and it really, really doesn't have to be.
Screw the high end guilds. The expansion launched with 7 5-mans and 5 raids, that's already probably too close. They've now released two more raids making the ratio tied. That seems completely nuts to me, expecially since you spend so much more time on one raid instance than a 5-man, there's less need for these. It may be more cost effective, for the amount of time that one person gets out of a raid, but considering how little of the playerbase has really progressed past Kara, I think it's a total shaft against the majority of players.
Exactly. They ought to do this, at a minimum, and they had this precedent set with the release of the expansion, and for some reason totally dropped the ball with BT.
Hey, no argument here, but I don't think it's realistic to expect Blizzard to drop the high end raiding culture. And frankly, does it even matter? Who cares what time they waste on 25 man raids so long as 10 man and 5 man content continues to be released?
Actually, if you look, there is parity between five and 25 mans. The Crypts/Terrokar instances have no 25 man attached.
It matters because I'd rather they spend resources on developing content for the majority of the playerbase instead of neglecting it.
Right, but there was precedent in SSC and TK, and seeing as it's a great idea, that they are doing again with the Sunwell, I think they dropped the ball by not starting it as an implemented design policy with BT.
Man after two or so months you are going to see an explosion of guilds getting their BT on.
Nerfed Kael, Vashj isn't too bad, ZA/Badge/t6 equivilent PVP loot is going to shoot average/above average guilds into BT like a goddamn rocket launcher.
That's why I said "So long as..." If you're getting your 5 and 10 man content, will you still complain about the 25 man raids being released? Because it sounds like yes, you will and you would prefer that end game raiders are neglected in turn instead of content being provided across the board.
1.8 million raiders in 10 and 25 man instances. A third of those are in SSC/TK. While it's not a majority of the player base, it is enough to deserve some development work.
I remember seeing the stats related to Karazhan, but what I don't remember is any clear indication that the people who had been in Karazhan, did so regularly.
But as the past three(my numbers were off earlier, I forgot Hyjal, so raids actually outnumber the 5 mans) instance releases have shown, raiding is getting the greater portion of the development work.
By one instance groupping. That doesn't count the sheer number of daily quests that have been added and the new heroic loots. The casuals haven't been ignored or lacked for development time.
I'd say the dailies are just as much targeted to the raiders, as a very quick way to build cash for consumables. Daily quests aren't group oriented, and they're inserted into the same old environments, whereas instances are an opportunity to give you actual challenges, in a new setting.
From what I've seen, Vashj and Kael are still going to far more difficult than most other bosses in Burning Crusade. It's true they'll be easier; Vashj becomes much easier with better DPS, and Kael has turned into mostly a coordination fight (instead of a coordination fight with a white-knuckled DPS check thrown in at the beginning). They'll still both be real ballbreakers, though, for raids unwilling or unable to step up their level of dedication, preparation, and coordination.
And the heroic/instance dailies? The problem with defining the daily rep grinds as for raiders, is that the only benfit to raiders is the money. Where as casual players get the money and the rep. The heroic/instance dailies for sure are not for raiders. In terms of money they just don't generate enough. And Kara is slowly sliding into the casual camp as people learn it, in the same way the UBRS became puggable. The only issue with Kara being casual is the time aspect, and that is something ZA will fix.
Septus, are you defining casual content as only five mans because raiders can do anything else too?
Over time it will get easier from mudflation, more players experiencing the events, and better strats being worked out. Remember that UBRS was a brutal instance in it's day and by the end of vanilla wow it was a joke.
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Heroic dailies? You mean quests that have you doing the same thing that people have been doing since April? That's not content, at all. Ogri'la is content, because there's at least a veneer of lore to it, and a new town etc. I know for sure that my old guild had people running heroics on occasion(total wow playtime was the factor here, not worthiness of the instances) even while going through SSC.
I'd be very surprised to ever see Kara be what UBRS was. UBRS had basically zero class requirements other than general dps/healing/tanking, Kara has very specific class requirements that change between bosses. There's also a relatively high gear requirement for Prince and Curator, whereas people could run UBRS in greens and blues.
I'm definining non-raid instances, not as specifically 5 mans, but not including Kara and ZA because, well, they're "raids" in the sense of being difficult with gear checks and requiring lots of coordination. Non-raid content is basically by definition all inclusive, raids are exclusive like halfmex said. I guarantee raiders would still be wanting to run completely new 5 man instances, at least briefly, simply because it's different. Non-raiders never get to see the raid instances.
Perhaps even 10 man instance's, that aren't raids. That way people get experience coordinating with more than just 5 people. But aren't locked into a group, or require 5+ hours to clear, or require a bunch of consumeables. The last boss could drop a heroic level epic on normal, and then on heroic more than one boss can drop epics or something. I don't know, it's probably a stupid idea.
EDIT: I think Septus just said what I said, except better.
Wait, am I insane, or don't 2 pieces drop from each Karazhan boss, with The Prince dropping 3?
Or is that "1 per boss, plus something extra if you do the timed event"?
Imagine for a second what WoW would be like if every instance had a five person limit. I'm talking everything from Ragefire/Stockades to Black Temple. If everyone in the game had the ability to access these instances. I can't conceive of how that would be a negative thing. Everyone gets a chance to see this content that the developers apparently work so hard on, versus a smaller chunk of the populace.
That's the thing; it was always so jarring for me to go from 'everything's puggable' to 'better be a raid guild from here on out, boy' in the span of one level. Why even do it that way? What's to be gained by excluding ANY number of your populace, let alone a significant number of it, from experiencing your game? It just makes no sense. Why split your dev team's efforts, having them develop content for two decidedly differently-abled groups of players, when you could just design content that everyone can access? Then you could nullify this whole raider/casual/hardcore/flabbitybloo debate from the get-go. After that, you could just focus on the PvP whiners, but that's a whole other can of worms...
I win 75 percent of the ones I'm in. Try playing at a different time or something.
I dunno what'd better, Verne Troyer as the obvious Gnome, or Verne Troyer as a tall race like Troll.