I didn't know how important hit rating was until I started reading this forum. But I also don't say things like, "fucking nub lol". I also try to improve as a player.
Anyways, that arena gear thing brings up a question... Does the S3 gear make suitable PvE gear? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every piece have +15 hit rating, or something like that?
No.
A few of the pieces do.
If your other gear has good hit rating, and you have no other gear, S3 makes a good choice for instancing, but for raiding you really do need more than what S3 can give.
EDIT: This is just from my impressions from observing this forum about how much +hit a raiding Rogue needs, and it doesn't seem to be enough on S3. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Forar
I didn't know how important hit rating was until I started reading this forum. But I also don't say things like, "fucking nub lol". I also try to improve as a player.
Anyways, that arena gear thing brings up a question... Does the S3 gear make suitable PvE gear? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every piece have +15 hit rating, or something like that?
A couple have some hit, but it's not much at all. (I think...40 with the whole set?) Plus, after all of the crit/Ap loss you would lose from the pieces for resil/stamina, the only desirable gear from Arenas for PVE are the weapons.
Of course, it's pretty usable in five mans/heroics/Kara if you sub some of it for hit gear.
Beck on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
Also, unless you're doing a LOT of Arena anyway, working hard enough to get Season 3 JUST to PvE is a bit excessive.
Grinding BGs to get S1, or grinding Arena to get S3, yes, but even IF Season 3 was alright for raiding, which it seems to be not, all it would really save you is carrying a separate set for PvP and PvE, because getting Season 3 is way too much work if you're not an arena junkie anyway.
How much hit rating does a rogue need to be effective? Is that 150-250 number the low-end of good, or is that good, or even really good?
I understand that dual-wielding gives you a 25% chance to miss (though I didn't a month ago...), but I'm not quite sure how that translates to DPS. Right now I have.... Uh... I'm not sure, but around +12% chance to hit. Should I be trying to get that to +25%, or is going for that much +hit going to cost me so much in +AP that I shouldn't worry about more than, say, 20%?
LineNoiz on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
How much hit rating does a rogue need to be effective? Is that 150-250 number the low-end of good, or is that good, or even really good?
I understand that dual-wielding gives you a 25% chance to miss (though I didn't a month ago...), but I'm not quite sure how that translates to DPS. Right now I have.... Uh... I'm not sure, but around +12% chance to hit. Should I be trying to get that to +25%, or is going for that much +hit going to cost me so much in +AP that I shouldn't worry about more than, say, 20%?
From memory of discussions between Oboro and Forar, Oboro has 200-250 and Forar has 300+, although Forar is in Black Temple with a Warglaive.
200 is the point where you enter Kara, 250 is where it spits you out. Do a little legwork on your own, hit 260, and you're ready to start SSC. Then you have trouble maintaining it throughout T5 content, and then it becomes cake with MH/BT.
Well for Kara/Heroics you need at least 200, preferably 250. And it just goes up from there.
I'm not planning on using s3 gear for raiding, I was just wondering. I'm planning to have a full PvE set and a full PvP set. So really doesn't matter, was just curious.
PierceNeck on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
200 is the point where you enter Kara, 250 is where it spits you out. Do a little legwork on your own, hit 260, and you're ready to start SSC. Then you have trouble maintaining it throughout T5 content, and then it becomes cake with MH/BT.
I'm actually waiting for losers to come to SSC, first pull was supposed to be 9 minutes ago. :x
We're doing VR/Astromancer in TK, Lurker/Hydross in here currently.
Woohoo, I hoped I'd catch up to you.
We downed Hydross last night, and Lurker is on Monday. Not hitting TK yet but we could if we wanted to...Karazhan no longer exists, we don't seem to care about Zul'Aman, and we kill Gruul and Magtheridon in about an hour and a half, including the travel time from Mag to Gruul.
Dhalphir on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited January 2008
In retrospect, the parry thing probably explains a few of my tanking deaths in ZG, when the dps was about as thick as an oak armoire.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
so we're going to be doing Tidewalker instead of Hydross until our NR tank finishes getting his gear
I'm totally going to try /wince Combat Swords if Talon drops
but we're on DKP now so it'd sort of be a waste to spend what DKP I have on it, especially when we have combat rogues who could better use it
oh well it was a nice idea
SSC loot is sort of unexciting for a Rogue, the few things I'd like are going to be super-contested from other classes like right up until we down Vashj
so we're going to be doing Tidewalker instead of Hydross until our NR tank finishes getting his gear
I'm totally going to try /wince Combat Swords if Talon drops
but we're on DKP now so it'd sort of be a waste to spend what DKP I have on it, especially when we have combat rogues who could better use it
oh well it was a nice idea
SSC loot is sort of unexciting for a Rogue, the few things I'd like are going to be super-contested from other classes like right up until we down Vashj
We downed vashj and I ended up with the shoulders from Hydross, chest from FLK and the trash drop thrown wep (stop gap till I get the S3 one).
The talon only dropped when I wasn't there and the one tsunami we had was bid on by about 8 people and 4 have way more dkp than me even if we ever go back.
Now we are on KT I am looking forward to the WSC from VR (me and the othe rogues have an agreement) to go with my romulo vial for a whopping 310 hit. other than that only the mace from KT lights my fire.
so we're going to be doing Tidewalker instead of Hydross until our NR tank finishes getting his gear
I'm totally going to try /wince Combat Swords if Talon drops
but we're on DKP now so it'd sort of be a waste to spend what DKP I have on it, especially when we have combat rogues who could better use it
oh well it was a nice idea
SSC loot is sort of unexciting for a Rogue, the few things I'd like are going to be super-contested from other classes like right up until we down Vashj
We downed vashj and I ended up with the shoulders from Hydross, chest from FLK and the trash drop thrown wep (stop gap till I get the S3 one).
The talon only dropped when I wasn't there and the one tsunami we had was bid on by about 8 people and 4 have way more dkp than me even if we ever go back.
Now we are on KT I am looking forward to the WSC from VR (me and the othe rogues have an agreement) to go with my romulo vial for a whopping 310 hit. other than that only the mace from KT lights my fire.
Arcanite steam pistol doesn't do anything for you? Our rogues always acted like that thing was a big deal.
so we're going to be doing Tidewalker instead of Hydross until our NR tank finishes getting his gear
I'm totally going to try /wince Combat Swords if Talon drops
but we're on DKP now so it'd sort of be a waste to spend what DKP I have on it, especially when we have combat rogues who could better use it
oh well it was a nice idea
SSC loot is sort of unexciting for a Rogue, the few things I'd like are going to be super-contested from other classes like right up until we down Vashj
We downed vashj and I ended up with the shoulders from Hydross, chest from FLK and the trash drop thrown wep (stop gap till I get the S3 one).
The talon only dropped when I wasn't there and the one tsunami we had was bid on by about 8 people and 4 have way more dkp than me even if we ever go back.
Now we are on KT I am looking forward to the WSC from VR (me and the othe rogues have an agreement) to go with my romulo vial for a whopping 310 hit. other than that only the mace from KT lights my fire.
Arcanite steam pistol doesn't do anything for you? Our rogues always acted like that thing was a big deal.
Oh yeah it's nice, but I just happen to prefer thrown for deadly throw (which has its place on al'ar adds in a pinch) and I know at least one hunter is after it so it's a "will take it over it being dissed" thing.
Al'ars fists are nice too, but with S1/2 weapons and a pref for swords or maces I don't see myself spending alot for them...and they only look pimp as a set.
So I'm farming the 39 bracket currently so I can get those epic WSG bracers at 40.
I'm hemo build on my way to cheat death, because I heard that's hax for leveling. Along the way I picked up the stealth detection talent.
Holy shit, I see rogues from so far away it's not even funny, they might as well just not stealth around me. --
Also, is there any satisfaction greater than absolutely destroying twinked BG characters with a nontwinked character? I think not, but then that's balanced out by not being able to do a fucking thing to a well played priest twink. Seriously, there's one who hangs out in the 39's, and I just can't kill her. Or even come close. Even with mind numbing/wound combo, to fuck her heals over..still no. My DPS just can't compete with her healing, shielding, and fears.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
yaaay, had fun in Gruul's tonight. I decided I wanted to try out a different guild, so I moved over earlier in the week. It was our first gruuls run, killed HK after about 7 tries and got Gruul down to 25% after two tries before calling it. Very happy with the results. Also got my Netherblade Shoulders, so it wasn't just a time sink either.
Really enjoying the new guild. Plus, since we're using /rolls, I actually have a chance to get the DST. So, here's hoping.
Beck on
Lucas's Franklin Badge reflected the lightning back!
When I dinged 70 I got the Abacus and Hourglass trinkets in the first Mech and BM runs we did, so my luck with trinkets seemed good.
But karma fucked me, I have since had no joy at all and will never see a DST, doubt I will see Tsuami again (or win it if I did) so it's WSC and beyond, but as 41/20 Muti the Tsunami would have been oh so pretty.
Just hope we can hit BT soon so I can get the Ashtounge one
Raiding Rogues, I need some advice. I recently joined a hardcore raiding guild and although I made a great impression on Magtheridon, I failed miserably last night on Gruul and Co. I still did the top damage of all the other Rogues there, but I fell way behind to ranged DPS
My problem on High King Maulgar was forgetting about the Mage AOE. We burned down all the other targets without much problem, then I retardedly ran over to the mage to help DPS him down and got AOE'd for like 8k damage. It was embarrasing as hell.
Gruul was a whole other story though, I found myself popping 5 point SnD's on the guy, and then getting knocked back out of range and stoned or whatever. It was an extreme waste of energy on my part, and looking back I know I can improve on that tactic, but other than that I was busting my ass and ended up 7th on the charts behind the ranged DPS. A few people told me Gruul was more of a ranged DPS fight and that I would never keep up, but a regular let me know I should have been able to keep in the top 3 spots, melee or no, as he did so regularly.
After talking to one of the established raiding Rogues, I was scolded (rightly so) and he was in utter disbelief when I told him about the 5 CP SnD's. He told me that you never ever pop more than a 1 or 2 point SnD. I am probably mistaken, but I thought that was a huge waste of energy to do it that way, what is the verdict on this? On long fights where I stay in Melee range, should I only be popping 1 and 2 point SnD's?
Other than that, any other advice for maximizing DPS on Gruul? On Trash I'm easily #1 2 or 3 on the meters, but when it came to the boss fight I dropped way down, and it was noticed.
He said never ever do 5cps? That does seem ridiculous. If there's a boss where you will be on his ass for an extended period of time, I can imagine no reason why you wouldn't go for all 5 combo points for greater energy efficiency.
Not all established raiders are always right.
Do you have a feral druid for mangle? Rupture seems like a winner on that fight because of how much time you spend not attacking him.
I only use 1-2 combo points for SnD. Then I can get rupture up as soon as possible, and generally have another combo point after using the finisher to re-up SnD. And just cycle through that mostly. If I have excessive combo points, I'll use evis or exp. armor (if there isn't a warrior tank) or whatever. But the point is, by the time my SnD is up, I've usually used my finisher and have a point for SnD again. Even if I don't, a quick shiv will get me that.
My current spec is 20/41/0, and with the points I have in assassination (chance for extra combo points and energy on finishers) and that set bonus, I'd usually get away with a 5 point rupture / 3 point SnD rotation. I'd get SnD going, get that 5 point rupture up, and then build to at least 3 CP's.
The trick to getting things running smoothly is that you want to drop your next finisher with time to build up to the next one, without letting either drop. I disagree with "only 1 or 2 point SnD's".
Depending on gear level, ranged (particularly mages, warlocks and shadow priests with crafted tailored epics) have a HUGE advantage on this fight, but if you're packing S2 or higher weaponry, you should be able to put a good showing.
I assume you know to CloS the shatter so that you can move without the slow, right?
I've lost my T4 over the past two months working with a new crew, and as much as I love upgrades, those two T4 set bonuses were hard to give up. With the Ashtongue trinket, I've had to move to a 5r/5s rotation, which means that rupture is often down. However, the trinket being up (and trying to leave 10 seconds between my finishers) gives me obscene crit, and the 2 piece T6 bonus means that I prioritize *never* being without SnD above just about all else.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Yeah I know about the CloS. I used it a couple times, I had a hard time seeing the shatters though, it looked like there were rocks falling where Gruul stood like the whole time, yet people were yelling for others to 'get out of the rocks', I'm going to watch some youtube videos to see what I am supposed to be looking for because I didn't see it last night.
And as for the SnD, yeah I'm going to stick with my tactics for fights where I stay in melee range. On Magtheridon, where you never really get out of melee range, I was only .3% behind a Rogue in full T4/T5 gear, which tells me my 5 point SnD's must be working.
I definitely need to stop popping 5 point SnD's on fights I am constantly running around though. I'm rusty after not raiding for like a year.
Along with my "5 point ruptures / whatever point SnD's", I try to carefully time them.
You do have Bigwigs or Deadly Boss Mods, right? So you have a timer bar for the ground slam, right?
If so; proceed:
I try to land one of those 5 point ruptures about 3-5 seconds before he slams, and then pound out as many combo points as possible (2-3+ if possible, including the bonus one that may or may not show up from talents/future gear), get thrown and cloak to survive (good man). Note: You can often sneak in an attack or two during the slam itself; I think the 'positioning' update occurs mid flight, or maybe I'm mistaken somehow as to the reasoning).
Then, run back and pop the SnD, burn up to 5 to refresh the fading/faded rupture, and get back into my rotation.
The "falling rocks" are an ability he uses called "Cave in", which is targetted on a player but stationary (lasts like 30 sec or so). This is why the melee want to clump up behind him; a cave in will most certainly land on them/the area, but it takes longer to cover his entire backside. Having the tank move him is possible if this happens, but it's a bad idea in my experience. Better to just try to prevent it from happening in the first place, though given the random targetting used, it's somewhat out of your control.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely try out those suggestions the next time we take him down.
Honestly I just started using Omen and Deadly Boss Mods like a couple of days ago. It's really hard to train myself to start watching them more closely since I'm used to running without them for so long, but I figure it shouldn't take too long to re-aquaint myself
I like BigWigs better than DBM, but that's just me. I like the warnings for waking me up so I don't fall asleep spamming scorch on the mage and die horribly.
IIRC, Gruul has 0 armor so physical dps as an advantage. In my last guild the rogues were always at the top, followed by an excellently geared hunter or two. Then my sad self.
Also, love the new thread title, hate mace spec rogues. I'm trying to convice a couple of PvP'ing rogues I run with to spec maces and be really annoying, but they don't listen to me.
a penguin on
This space eventually to be filled with excitement
I picked up a second trash dropped mace from BT the other day.
Yes, a 1.5 speed mace with a 200 top end is pretty shitty for sinister strike, but having a pair of 1.5 speed maces (with an innate 5% haste between the two of them) + mace spec would be really, really annoying.
I've never spec'd maces for pvp, but I've been thinking of doing so, just to try it out.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
IIRC, Gruul has 0 armor so physical dps as an advantage. In my last guild the rogues were always at the top, followed by an excellently geared hunter or two. Then my sad self.
This is pretty weird from my warlock+warrior dps experience at gruul. He doesn't have especially low armor.
What does really matter is stacking dps. Is there a shadowpriest / is there a shadowpriest in your group / do you have a shaman spec'd in whatever you do in your group / do you have a resto shaman in your group and whatnot can all drastically affect your output.
Also, curses: For rogues, if curse of recklessness isn't active, you lose a big chunk of dps.
In my experience, warlocks should reign supreme on gruul until hunters get crazy gear.
Less applicable because of the Ground Smash mechanic for Gruul, but--
although it's less energy-efficient, you get more DPS out of Rupture if you use smaller ones for the same duration a 5-point Rupture would have functioned -- this is for AP values over 2000 or so (raidbuffed). With all the buffs up, and stuff like trinkets, I have something like 2900AP, or at least 2500. So... you're probably past 2000 yourself. If you're interested in the math,
The AP coefficient is the same no matter how many points are put into the Rupture; however, the base contribution of a Rank 7 Rupture does not change. Once you pass a certain point, the contribution from AP exceeds that of the skill itself-- pass that point, back-to-back 1pt Ruptures become your highest DPS though whether you can sustain them is another question entirely. To illustrate this point, an example-- our Rogue in question has 2000AP. Base damage for Rupture is 324 at 1pt, and 1000 at 5pt; the durations are 8 and 16 seconds respectively, and the modifier is 24%(AP) for both.
The difference between great Rogue DPS and mind-bending Rogue DPS is small things like this; if you don't want to go knee-deep into the math, you may top charts but you will not destroy them. This past week, I improved my DPS on VR massively by realizing that I got more contribution from my haste effects by staggering them instead of using them all at once (though seeing 0.74/0.74 on my character sheet is astounding, staying at 1.01 for twice as long proved more valuable). Is it unintuitive? Maybe slightly.
Is the Rupture thing unintuitive? Pretty starkly so, yes. Being Mutilate spec, though, I benefit more from using at least one low-point finishing move; if I'm using large SnDs to keep total up-time, I need to be using small Ruptures, and I eventually looked at the math just to find out that what I was doing was the best anyhow.
Also, an interesting aside on Rogue math--
On our last Gruul, we had three Rogues, and since I was Daggers instead of Swords I was moved out of the Windfury group and into the Grace of Air one with our Hunters. Of the two Combat Swords Rogues, one was an MH raider with nonsense for gear so I discounted him -- the other was at my gear level, so I hashed out the actual Damage Out from Windfury (on average) after weaseling the related stats from him (WWS does not report the Windfury damage for totem procs, merely the number of them).
On that fight, with Spiteblade mainhand and about 30% raidbuffed crit, his 25 Windfury attacks totaled out to around 16000 expected damage.
On that same fight, with both Poison talents 5/5, I did 14716 damage with Instant Poison alone, off a 1.8 speed weapon. So... despite having lost Windfury totem, I actually didn't lose all that much -- if I went through the trouble of hashing out the contribution from Grace of Air, we may actually have been neck and neck.
EDIT: Reading from that same WWS, our top DPS on Gruul by damage out/sustained DPS (all have 100%ish uptime) is:
Uptime is staggered after that, people die at some point, etc., so it gets harder to judge.
EDIT 2: Back on the subject of Rupture, if you have trinket procs + Mongoose up that's also an ideal time to refresh Rupture because it will carry over that instantaneous AP boost for the duration; depending on how many such AP boosts you have, it can be more worthwhile at those points to hold off on more combo points for the Rupture so that you can have it last through the internal cooldowns to the next such period of Silly Attack Power.
Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely try out those suggestions the next time we take him down.
Honestly I just started using Omen and Deadly Boss Mods like a couple of days ago. It's really hard to train myself to start watching them more closely since I'm used to running without them for so long, but I figure it shouldn't take too long to re-aquaint myself
Omen and DBM are really helpful. I prefer BigWigs, but mostly because I find DBM slows my WoW down a bit.
But, for Gruul's (I just did it last night, and was 3rd place under 2 hunters that really outgear me) I found 3 pt/ 2 pt SNDs (I don't have the 2pc set bonus either) to be the way to go, since you're rarely going to see the effects of a full 5 point SnD due to shatter forcing you to move away from Gruul. Other than that, stick with Eviserate on this boss. He has barely any armor, so you'll be critting for huge amounts of damage, way more than Rupture could offer. For the first two tries, I was using rupture and hovering around 7th, 8th, 9th. After switching to evis, I switched to 3rd immedietly.
Beck on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely try out those suggestions the next time we take him down.
Honestly I just started using Omen and Deadly Boss Mods like a couple of days ago. It's really hard to train myself to start watching them more closely since I'm used to running without them for so long, but I figure it shouldn't take too long to re-aquaint myself
Omen and DBM are really helpful. I prefer BigWigs, but mostly because I find DBM slows my WoW down a bit.
But, for Gruul's (I just did it last night, and was 3rd place under 2 hunters that really outgear me) I found 3 pt/ 2 pt SNDs (I don't have the 2pc set bonus either) to be the way to go, since you're rarely going to see the effects of a full 5 point SnD due to shatter forcing you to move away from Gruul. Other than that, stick with Eviserate on this boss. He has barely any armor, so you'll be critting for huge amounts of damage, way more than Rupture could offer. For the first two tries, I was using rupture and hovering around 7th, 8th, 9th. After switching to evis, I switched to 3rd immedietly.
Wow, when I first hit 70 I played with no addons.
I installed Omen and it is amazing how quickly you become reliant on it.
I don't look at it during trash fights, and actually, I don't notice it on boss fights, until I hit the 90% screen-flash warning, but it is amazing trying to run ANYTHING without it, i feel so naked not knowin exactly how close i am to pulling threat.
I really, truly cannot imagine the scenario where Eviscerate can even possibly be more damage than Rupture. Do you not have Mangle up, have a lot of armor penetration, but somehow also low attack power in tandem with that? It boggles the mind.
EDIT: Numbers for posterity, again assuming a 2000AP Rogue; Rogue with Eviscerate is assumed to have 3/3 Imp. Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression.
5pt Rupture = 1480 damage (not subject to mitigation)
5pt Rupture w/ Mangle (only takes one Feral Druid in your 25) = 1924 (not subject to mitigation)
5pt Eviscerate = 1457 - 1587 (pre-mitigation)
5pt critical Eviscerate = 2914 - 3174 (pre-mitigation)
If you have no Feral Druid, and Gruul's armor really is that low... maybe... Eviscerate is better? You're still going to have to do a shit-load of convincing to push your point of "Don't Rupture at all, just use Eviscerates."
Like, especially when you take into account that any Eviscerate at less than 4-5 points is trash, whereas a 1pt Rupture will steal deal its unmitigated 804 damage ... or 1045 with Mangle up.
I really, physically cannot imagine the scenario where Eviscerate can even possibly be more damage than Rupture. Do you not have Mangle up, have a lot of armor penetration, but somehow also low attack power in tandem with that? It boggles the mind.
I just found eviserate's crits on Gruul were worth it. Every other boss? Rupture, but when I was hitting for around...Shit, 3k when evis crit, I stuck with it.
Our group had a druid, though, so my crit was a bit higher than it normally would have been.
Edit: After reading your post, I really have no idea how my DPS ended up jumping after switching to Evis. Perhaps it was just luck, my hit is pretty low, so maybe that's what happened. I really have no idea.
Beck on
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Posts
No.
A few of the pieces do.
If your other gear has good hit rating, and you have no other gear, S3 makes a good choice for instancing, but for raiding you really do need more than what S3 can give.
EDIT: This is just from my impressions from observing this forum about how much +hit a raiding Rogue needs, and it doesn't seem to be enough on S3. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Forar
A couple have some hit, but it's not much at all. (I think...40 with the whole set?) Plus, after all of the crit/Ap loss you would lose from the pieces for resil/stamina, the only desirable gear from Arenas for PVE are the weapons.
Of course, it's pretty usable in five mans/heroics/Kara if you sub some of it for hit gear.
Grinding BGs to get S1, or grinding Arena to get S3, yes, but even IF Season 3 was alright for raiding, which it seems to be not, all it would really save you is carrying a separate set for PvP and PvE, because getting Season 3 is way too much work if you're not an arena junkie anyway.
I understand that dual-wielding gives you a 25% chance to miss (though I didn't a month ago...), but I'm not quite sure how that translates to DPS. Right now I have.... Uh... I'm not sure, but around +12% chance to hit. Should I be trying to get that to +25%, or is going for that much +hit going to cost me so much in +AP that I shouldn't worry about more than, say, 20%?
From memory of discussions between Oboro and Forar, Oboro has 200-250 and Forar has 300+, although Forar is in Black Temple with a Warglaive.
200 is the point where you enter Kara, 250 is where it spits you out. Do a little legwork on your own, hit 260, and you're ready to start SSC. Then you have trouble maintaining it throughout T5 content, and then it becomes cake with MH/BT.
I'm not planning on using s3 gear for raiding, I was just wondering. I'm planning to have a full PvE set and a full PvP set. So really doesn't matter, was just curious.
Yay.
Where are you up to now anyway?
We're doing VR/Astromancer in TK, Lurker/Hydross in here currently.
Woohoo, I hoped I'd catch up to you.
We downed Hydross last night, and Lurker is on Monday. Not hitting TK yet but we could if we wanted to...Karazhan no longer exists, we don't seem to care about Zul'Aman, and we kill Gruul and Magtheridon in about an hour and a half, including the travel time from Mag to Gruul.
No Warglaive here yet.
Aiming for 250 to 300 in quality blues (that happen to have hit on them) and T4 level gear isn't impossible, and a good level for a Raider,.
hm, i thought that picture you posted of all your characters was a warglaive. what is it?
Blade of Infamy and Blade of Savagery.
I'm totally going to try /wince Combat Swords if Talon drops
but we're on DKP now so it'd sort of be a waste to spend what DKP I have on it, especially when we have combat rogues who could better use it
oh well it was a nice idea
SSC loot is sort of unexciting for a Rogue, the few things I'd like are going to be super-contested from other classes like right up until we down Vashj
We downed vashj and I ended up with the shoulders from Hydross, chest from FLK and the trash drop thrown wep (stop gap till I get the S3 one).
The talon only dropped when I wasn't there and the one tsunami we had was bid on by about 8 people and 4 have way more dkp than me even if we ever go back.
Now we are on KT I am looking forward to the WSC from VR (me and the othe rogues have an agreement) to go with my romulo vial for a whopping 310 hit. other than that only the mace from KT lights my fire.
Arcanite steam pistol doesn't do anything for you? Our rogues always acted like that thing was a big deal.
Oh yeah it's nice, but I just happen to prefer thrown for deadly throw (which has its place on al'ar adds in a pinch) and I know at least one hunter is after it so it's a "will take it over it being dissed" thing.
Al'ars fists are nice too, but with S1/2 weapons and a pref for swords or maces I don't see myself spending alot for them...and they only look pimp as a set.
I'm hemo build on my way to cheat death, because I heard that's hax for leveling. Along the way I picked up the stealth detection talent.
Holy shit, I see rogues from so far away it's not even funny, they might as well just not stealth around me. --
Also, is there any satisfaction greater than absolutely destroying twinked BG characters with a nontwinked character? I think not, but then that's balanced out by not being able to do a fucking thing to a well played priest twink. Seriously, there's one who hangs out in the 39's, and I just can't kill her. Or even come close. Even with mind numbing/wound combo, to fuck her heals over..still no. My DPS just can't compete with her healing, shielding, and fears.
Really enjoying the new guild. Plus, since we're using /rolls, I actually have a chance to get the DST. So, here's hoping.
But karma fucked me, I have since had no joy at all and will never see a DST, doubt I will see Tsuami again (or win it if I did) so it's WSC and beyond, but as 41/20 Muti the Tsunami would have been oh so pretty.
Just hope we can hit BT soon so I can get the Ashtounge one
My problem on High King Maulgar was forgetting about the Mage AOE. We burned down all the other targets without much problem, then I retardedly ran over to the mage to help DPS him down and got AOE'd for like 8k damage. It was embarrasing as hell.
Gruul was a whole other story though, I found myself popping 5 point SnD's on the guy, and then getting knocked back out of range and stoned or whatever. It was an extreme waste of energy on my part, and looking back I know I can improve on that tactic, but other than that I was busting my ass and ended up 7th on the charts behind the ranged DPS. A few people told me Gruul was more of a ranged DPS fight and that I would never keep up, but a regular let me know I should have been able to keep in the top 3 spots, melee or no, as he did so regularly.
After talking to one of the established raiding Rogues, I was scolded (rightly so) and he was in utter disbelief when I told him about the 5 CP SnD's. He told me that you never ever pop more than a 1 or 2 point SnD. I am probably mistaken, but I thought that was a huge waste of energy to do it that way, what is the verdict on this? On long fights where I stay in Melee range, should I only be popping 1 and 2 point SnD's?
Other than that, any other advice for maximizing DPS on Gruul? On Trash I'm easily #1 2 or 3 on the meters, but when it came to the boss fight I dropped way down, and it was noticed.
Not all established raiders are always right.
Do you have a feral druid for mangle? Rupture seems like a winner on that fight because of how much time you spend not attacking him.
My current spec is 20/41/0, and with the points I have in assassination (chance for extra combo points and energy on finishers) and that set bonus, I'd usually get away with a 5 point rupture / 3 point SnD rotation. I'd get SnD going, get that 5 point rupture up, and then build to at least 3 CP's.
The trick to getting things running smoothly is that you want to drop your next finisher with time to build up to the next one, without letting either drop. I disagree with "only 1 or 2 point SnD's".
Depending on gear level, ranged (particularly mages, warlocks and shadow priests with crafted tailored epics) have a HUGE advantage on this fight, but if you're packing S2 or higher weaponry, you should be able to put a good showing.
I assume you know to CloS the shatter so that you can move without the slow, right?
I've lost my T4 over the past two months working with a new crew, and as much as I love upgrades, those two T4 set bonuses were hard to give up. With the Ashtongue trinket, I've had to move to a 5r/5s rotation, which means that rupture is often down. However, the trinket being up (and trying to leave 10 seconds between my finishers) gives me obscene crit, and the 2 piece T6 bonus means that I prioritize *never* being without SnD above just about all else.
Yeah I know about the CloS. I used it a couple times, I had a hard time seeing the shatters though, it looked like there were rocks falling where Gruul stood like the whole time, yet people were yelling for others to 'get out of the rocks', I'm going to watch some youtube videos to see what I am supposed to be looking for because I didn't see it last night.
And as for the SnD, yeah I'm going to stick with my tactics for fights where I stay in melee range. On Magtheridon, where you never really get out of melee range, I was only .3% behind a Rogue in full T4/T5 gear, which tells me my 5 point SnD's must be working.
I definitely need to stop popping 5 point SnD's on fights I am constantly running around though. I'm rusty after not raiding for like a year.
Along with my "5 point ruptures / whatever point SnD's", I try to carefully time them.
You do have Bigwigs or Deadly Boss Mods, right? So you have a timer bar for the ground slam, right?
If so; proceed:
I try to land one of those 5 point ruptures about 3-5 seconds before he slams, and then pound out as many combo points as possible (2-3+ if possible, including the bonus one that may or may not show up from talents/future gear), get thrown and cloak to survive (good man). Note: You can often sneak in an attack or two during the slam itself; I think the 'positioning' update occurs mid flight, or maybe I'm mistaken somehow as to the reasoning).
Then, run back and pop the SnD, burn up to 5 to refresh the fading/faded rupture, and get back into my rotation.
The "falling rocks" are an ability he uses called "Cave in", which is targetted on a player but stationary (lasts like 30 sec or so). This is why the melee want to clump up behind him; a cave in will most certainly land on them/the area, but it takes longer to cover his entire backside. Having the tank move him is possible if this happens, but it's a bad idea in my experience. Better to just try to prevent it from happening in the first place, though given the random targetting used, it's somewhat out of your control.
Honestly I just started using Omen and Deadly Boss Mods like a couple of days ago. It's really hard to train myself to start watching them more closely since I'm used to running without them for so long, but I figure it shouldn't take too long to re-aquaint myself
IIRC, Gruul has 0 armor so physical dps as an advantage. In my last guild the rogues were always at the top, followed by an excellently geared hunter or two. Then my sad self.
Also, love the new thread title, hate mace spec rogues. I'm trying to convice a couple of PvP'ing rogues I run with to spec maces and be really annoying, but they don't listen to me.
Yes, a 1.5 speed mace with a 200 top end is pretty shitty for sinister strike, but having a pair of 1.5 speed maces (with an innate 5% haste between the two of them) + mace spec would be really, really annoying.
I've never spec'd maces for pvp, but I've been thinking of doing so, just to try it out.
This is pretty weird from my warlock+warrior dps experience at gruul. He doesn't have especially low armor.
What does really matter is stacking dps. Is there a shadowpriest / is there a shadowpriest in your group / do you have a shaman spec'd in whatever you do in your group / do you have a resto shaman in your group and whatnot can all drastically affect your output.
Also, curses: For rogues, if curse of recklessness isn't active, you lose a big chunk of dps.
In my experience, warlocks should reign supreme on gruul until hunters get crazy gear.
although it's less energy-efficient, you get more DPS out of Rupture if you use smaller ones for the same duration a 5-point Rupture would have functioned -- this is for AP values over 2000 or so (raidbuffed). With all the buffs up, and stuff like trinkets, I have something like 2900AP, or at least 2500. So... you're probably past 2000 yourself. If you're interested in the math,
324 + (2000*0.24)= 324 + 480 = 804/8seconds
1000 + (2000*0.24)= 1000 + 480 = 1480/16 seconds OR 740/8seconds
The difference between great Rogue DPS and mind-bending Rogue DPS is small things like this; if you don't want to go knee-deep into the math, you may top charts but you will not destroy them. This past week, I improved my DPS on VR massively by realizing that I got more contribution from my haste effects by staggering them instead of using them all at once (though seeing 0.74/0.74 on my character sheet is astounding, staying at 1.01 for twice as long proved more valuable). Is it unintuitive? Maybe slightly.
Is the Rupture thing unintuitive? Pretty starkly so, yes. Being Mutilate spec, though, I benefit more from using at least one low-point finishing move; if I'm using large SnDs to keep total up-time, I need to be using small Ruptures, and I eventually looked at the math just to find out that what I was doing was the best anyhow.
Also, an interesting aside on Rogue math--
On our last Gruul, we had three Rogues, and since I was Daggers instead of Swords I was moved out of the Windfury group and into the Grace of Air one with our Hunters. Of the two Combat Swords Rogues, one was an MH raider with nonsense for gear so I discounted him -- the other was at my gear level, so I hashed out the actual Damage Out from Windfury (on average) after weaseling the related stats from him (WWS does not report the Windfury damage for totem procs, merely the number of them).
On that fight, with Spiteblade mainhand and about 30% raidbuffed crit, his 25 Windfury attacks totaled out to around 16000 expected damage.
On that same fight, with both Poison talents 5/5, I did 14716 damage with Instant Poison alone, off a 1.8 speed weapon. So... despite having lost Windfury totem, I actually didn't lose all that much -- if I went through the trouble of hashing out the contribution from Grace of Air, we may actually have been neck and neck.
EDIT: Reading from that same WWS, our top DPS on Gruul by damage out/sustained DPS (all have 100%ish uptime) is:
Hunter // Rogue // Rogue // Warlock // Mage // Warlock // Warlock
Uptime is staggered after that, people die at some point, etc., so it gets harder to judge.
EDIT 2: Back on the subject of Rupture, if you have trinket procs + Mongoose up that's also an ideal time to refresh Rupture because it will carry over that instantaneous AP boost for the duration; depending on how many such AP boosts you have, it can be more worthwhile at those points to hold off on more combo points for the Rupture so that you can have it last through the internal cooldowns to the next such period of Silly Attack Power.
Oh, you must mean the double proc. >.>
Omen and DBM are really helpful. I prefer BigWigs, but mostly because I find DBM slows my WoW down a bit.
But, for Gruul's (I just did it last night, and was 3rd place under 2 hunters that really outgear me) I found 3 pt/ 2 pt SNDs (I don't have the 2pc set bonus either) to be the way to go, since you're rarely going to see the effects of a full 5 point SnD due to shatter forcing you to move away from Gruul. Other than that, stick with Eviserate on this boss. He has barely any armor, so you'll be critting for huge amounts of damage, way more than Rupture could offer. For the first two tries, I was using rupture and hovering around 7th, 8th, 9th. After switching to evis, I switched to 3rd immedietly.
Wow, when I first hit 70 I played with no addons.
I installed Omen and it is amazing how quickly you become reliant on it.
I don't look at it during trash fights, and actually, I don't notice it on boss fights, until I hit the 90% screen-flash warning, but it is amazing trying to run ANYTHING without it, i feel so naked not knowin exactly how close i am to pulling threat.
EDIT: Numbers for posterity, again assuming a 2000AP Rogue; Rogue with Eviscerate is assumed to have 3/3 Imp. Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression.
5pt Rupture = 1480 damage (not subject to mitigation)
5pt Rupture w/ Mangle (only takes one Feral Druid in your 25) = 1924 (not subject to mitigation)
5pt Eviscerate = 1457 - 1587 (pre-mitigation)
5pt critical Eviscerate = 2914 - 3174 (pre-mitigation)
If you have no Feral Druid, and Gruul's armor really is that low... maybe... Eviscerate is better? You're still going to have to do a shit-load of convincing to push your point of "Don't Rupture at all, just use Eviscerates."
Like, especially when you take into account that any Eviscerate at less than 4-5 points is trash, whereas a 1pt Rupture will steal deal its unmitigated 804 damage ... or 1045 with Mangle up.
I just found eviserate's crits on Gruul were worth it. Every other boss? Rupture, but when I was hitting for around...Shit, 3k when evis crit, I stuck with it.
Our group had a druid, though, so my crit was a bit higher than it normally would have been.
Edit: After reading your post, I really have no idea how my DPS ended up jumping after switching to Evis. Perhaps it was just luck, my hit is pretty low, so maybe that's what happened. I really have no idea.