It's cool, there are absolutely so many factors out there that it can be very difficult to judge accurately what we do or don't do that actually improves us. You're doing something right, no worries there.
It's cool, there are absolutely so many factors out there that it can be very difficult to judge accurately what we do or don't do that actually improves us. You're doing something right, no worries there.
Ah, so after switching to ruptures tonight, my DPS was higher. I just didn't move from 4th. Hunterslololol.
Beck on
Lucas's Franklin Badge reflected the lightning back!
Eviscerate can obviously crit for more than Rupture, but what Rupture does that more than makes up for it is consistency. You are consistently guaranteed to get a solid 2000-2400 damage out of Rupture with Mangle debuff, while your Evis is going to have a nice 3k crit 1 in 3 times and the rest a pitiful 1300 or so.
I used Mutilate for 2 weeks on Illidan attempts to test out finishers before Xmas. Phase1 is a pure tank-n-spank until 65% when Phase2 begins, so it's perfect for sustained DPS tests. Long story short: My best DPS numbers were without a doubt when keeping Rupture up as close to 100% as possible. Not even Envenom spam with 5/5 each poison talent, 270 hit, and running 40-48% crit sustained with the Lethality trinket was able to put up better numbers.
(I need more Ignore Armor before Evis really comes on strong as a solid 3rd finisher with Mutilate. T6 + Stormrage ring etc. adds up to around 840 before Executioner)
I have a quick question (more like a chain of questions, but whatever)
Does shiv do any damage at all or does it just apply the poison on that weapon?
If it DOES do damage, does dual-wield spec increase this damage?
Missed this, yes it does wepn dmg and yes DW spec boosts it, my Prowlers Strikeblade (1.5, 95dps) shivs for about 300 non crit and 700 crit max, its no slouch for applying poison to start a dps cycle or shiv crippling in PVP, and with SF (I am 41/20) it can obviosly add 2 combos.
I installed Omen and it is amazing how quickly you become reliant on it.
I played from 1 to 60 without any addons either.
Then I got Gatherer.
Things went downhill from there.
Soon I was downloading an entire compliation pack, but that was too much, so I'd disable some I didn't want/like.
Then one of the 1.0x patches broke like EVERYTHING I had, and the great mod purge of 2005 began. I pared it down to barebones, and began building back up.
I'm back up to a healthy number again, and am thinking that I may just need to do another purge at some point, but they're all so good! Charactersviewer! Omen! DBM, SCT and SWSTATS!
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Well guys, the 2 to 3 CP SnD / 5 CP Ruptures seemed to boost my DPS insanely high. Last night in SSC, we took out 3 bosses, the last of which was Fathom-Lord Karathress. #1 on the DPS meters, I only looked at the damage portion of it, but was told by someone else in the raid that I was at about 1300 DPS which I find really hard to believe with my gear. I don't have a single Tier piece to my name.
Either way though, the 2 to 3 point SnD and Rupture cycle seemed to work out extremely well, and I think I'll probably stick with it.
As for mods, yeah it all started with Cartographer for me, and then a HUD, now I have about 5 or 6 addons I literally cannot play the game without. But yeah, the 90% aggro threat screen glow (with Omen) is awesome and has saved my ass several times now.
Ok, so I got Dory's Embrace last night. I've been using Cloak of the Inciter. Dory's is superior in every way EXCEPT that it doesn't have +hit. Inciter has 16. With the food buff, I land just over 250 in my current gear. Would I be find using Dory's? Or is 16 hit really that important?
Ok, so I got Dory's Embrace last night. I've been using Cloak of the Inciter. Dory's is superior in every way EXCEPT that it doesn't have +hit. Inciter has 16. With the food buff, I land just over 250 in my current gear. Would I be find using Dory's? Or is 16 hit really that important?
16 hit is that important. I was a fucking retard and got rid of my cloak of inciter for Dory's and now I regret doing it. I really wish I still had the Inciter for Raiding...
So after almost 4 months clean I’m back on the wow. I’m transitioning from raiding to being a full time PvP Rogue. This is me http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarius&n=Mordander (yeah I know I need a gem in my neck piece, I just got the damn thing) I’m planning to Honor farm for all the veteran gear and use my Arena points to grab S3 (and some S2 because 1800+ is out of reach for now). So my questions are 1.) Do I bother getting any S1, after I have all the veteran stuff? Or just hold on for S3/S2? 2.) Is it worth it to replace my rings (10K marks and master violet assassin) with Vindicator's Band of Triumph and Veterans Band of Triumph? Same question with Dory’s and drape of the dark reavers. Thanks for roguering.
P.S. the new shadow step is so awesome it even makes WSG fun
You don't want Veteran gear. You want Vindicator gear. Also, the s1 MH is worth getting. The s2 OH will be fast and easy to get, and the MH might take some time. So the s1 will be a nice in betweener. And I love Dory's. Also, get some of the s1 gear to fill in spots that might take awhile on the arena grind. That's what I would do anyways.
Ok, so I got Dory's Embrace last night. I've been using Cloak of the Inciter. Dory's is superior in every way EXCEPT that it doesn't have +hit. Inciter has 16. With the food buff, I land just over 250 in my current gear. Would I be find using Dory's? Or is 16 hit really that important?
16 hit is that important. I was a fucking retard and got rid of my cloak of inciter for Dory's and now I regret doing it. I really wish I still had the Inciter for Raiding...
I'd have to have the numbers beside me, but offhand I disagree, and we probably all know how much of a huge hit whore I am.
You're losing just over 1% to hit, but look at what you're gaining!
I'm wearing Dory's currently, and my hit is currently down at 276 before food. I'm hoping to get a few upgrades with actual Hit on them, but only time (and the RNG) shall tell.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Well I'm still only in Kara. Basically we clear up to, and including, Aran. Netherspite/Prince/Nightbane are still a little out of reach. (progression group split in two, to allow for two raids and training raid noobs (like me))
So I figure the 16hit will be replaced rather quickly as I acquire more gear. So far all I've really gotten were the t4 gloves and gloves of dextrous manipulation. Oh, and the engineering scope plans from Attumen.
Ok, so I got Dory's Embrace last night. I've been using Cloak of the Inciter. Dory's is superior in every way EXCEPT that it doesn't have +hit. Inciter has 16. With the food buff, I land just over 250 in my current gear. Would I be find using Dory's? Or is 16 hit really that important?
16 hit is that important. I was a fucking retard and got rid of my cloak of inciter for Dory's and now I regret doing it. I really wish I still had the Inciter for Raiding...
I'd have to have the numbers beside me, but offhand I disagree, and we probably all know how much of a huge hit whore I am.
You're losing just over 1% to hit, but look at what you're gaining!
I'm wearing Dory's currently, and my hit is currently down at 276 before food. I'm hoping to get a few upgrades with actual Hit on them, but only time (and the RNG) shall tell.
I think where you sit with your hit rating definitely affects which you would wear, but since I'm sitting at like 234 unbuffed hit, I need every little bit I can get my hands on.
Cloak of the Inciter
+15 Stamina
Requires Level 68
Equip: Improves hit rating by 16 (1.13% @ L68)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 18 (0.91% @ L68).
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Dory's Embrace
114 Armor
+34 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 20 (0.91% @ L70)
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 20 (0.51% @ L70)
Equip: Increases attack power by 46.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 112 of your opponent's armor.
Between the two:
Stamina - Dory's. Yes, stamina is nice for raiding, but it doesn't make or break an item.
Crit - Dory's. Yeah, by 2 rating, so basically, they are even
Hit - Inciters. Primary raid stat for Rogues until you start breaking 300 hit rating
AP - Dory's. Only 16 more AP, but that does make a slight difference.
Resilience - Useless
I'd go to say that if you have below 250 hit rating, to go for inciters, and if you have over 250, probably stick with Dory's. All preference though, both cloaks kick ass.
Also, throw +15 agility on either of those cloaks ASAP.
4 crit rating difference. It's not huge, but it's there.
16 AP is nothing to overlook too easily, but I agree it's small.
You glossed over the Armour Penetration, however, which isn't a small thing after Sunder and whatnot are considered. Every point of Armour Penetration is more valuable than the last, up until the mob has 0 armour.
Also, it's 12 agility to cloaks unless there's a new enchant I'm unaware of, but now I'm just totally nitpicking, so I digress.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
That armor penetration looks fantastic if could get a few other pieces from ZA.
Edit: On that note, I understand that every point is better than the last, but that's always confused me, as when gearing for armor on a tank, every additional point of armor is just as valuable for end mitigation as the last.
If the armory is working... You can check my sig. It has what I raid with, though might still have some raid buffs up. Also, anyone know if Latros's Shifting sword (or whatever) has a decent drop rate? I'm thinking about grabbing that for my OH. I want to use my arena points towards the maces for PvP.
Yeah you are right, 12 agility. I always get that confused with the +15 agility to weapon enchant.
And yeah I forgot about the armor penetration. Looking over the 2 again, you could pretty easily make up that 16 hit rating with two +8 hit dawnstones anyways, so yeah, I change my mind, Dory's is probably the better cloak even with its lack of hit.
Edit: On that note, I understand that every point is better than the last, but that's always confused me, as when gearing for armor on a tank, every additional point of armor is just as valuable for end mitigation as the last.
I hope I'm not mistaken, but here's how I understand armour; diminishing returns.
1000 armour = however much % damage reduction.
Another 1000 armour (2000 total) is double the armour, but is not double the damage reduction.
And so on, and so on.
Taking 100 armour off a mob with 10,000 armour isn't much, agreed, but taking 100 armour off a mob with 5,000 armour increases your damage more. After Sunder Armour and Faerie Fire, which are a significant chunk of almost any mob's armour, that 200-500+ armour penetration can start looking pretty damned good.
... what would be the opposite of "Diminishing Returns"?
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
You're right that each additional 1000 armor grants less % damage reduction, but then each extra % damage reduction is more valuable than the last, for a steady benefit for each 1000 armor. Unless this has changed some time in BC. This is what I learned from the big tanking threads on both the warrior and druid forums a long time ago.
I don't have access to wowwiki from work, but I could swear that this is why a mage/rogue/whatever with 3k armour can have like 25% damage reduction, whereas a druid/warrior/paladin requires like 30,000 armour to hit 75% damage reduction.
Each % of damage reduced is indeed equally or more valuable, but you need more raw armour to get that %, thus, diminishing returns.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
Armor is direct physical damage mitigation. The dps reduction that armor grants diminishes with more and more armor. The opposite is true for lower and lower armor.
The way armor increases the total amount of damage you take before dying does not diminish.
More of my L2Pro PvP foolishness; Gem priority? +RES and + STAM> +RES> +AGI and STAM?
It's all really debatable, to be honest.
Stam/Agi, Stam/Crit or AP/Crit, AP Gems, and for metas the 24 AP + Minor Runspeed Increase gem, or the 18 Stam gem (I prefer the AP, personally).
Some players opt for more AP, others for more stamina...Really, it's up to you. You know your play style better than anyone else, so while I decided on getting more AP, it may just work better for you to go with more stamina in your sockets. You'll always at least 1550 AP, though, and over 10k health, you'll probably hit 11k or so.
Beck on
Lucas's Franklin Badge reflected the lightning back!
Armor is direct physical damage mitigation. The dps reduction that armor grants diminishes with more and more armor. The opposite is true for lower and lower armor.
The way armor increases the total amount of damage you take before dying does not diminish.
Right, your time to live gained from armor doesn't diminish, which makes me think that a bosses time to live would not reduce at an ever increasing rate, which is what seems to be the case when each additional point of penetration is better than the last.
I got Cloak of the Dark Reavers (or whatever) last night. Which is pretty much a direct upgrade to Inciter, except also has +agl. So I'm using that for PvE now, and Dory's for PvP. Until I have hit coming out of my ass from other gear at least.
Armor is direct physical damage mitigation. The dps reduction that armor grants diminishes with more and more armor. The opposite is true for lower and lower armor.
The way armor increases the total amount of damage you take before dying does not diminish.
Right, your time to live gained from armor doesn't diminish, which makes me think that a bosses time to live would not reduce at an ever increasing rate, which is what seems to be the case when each additional point of penetration is better than the last.
It still boggles my mind that people haven't figured out that armor and armor penetration are both linear in terms of relative benefits. Just because the numbers are bigger on low armor targets doesn't mean that the effect is in any way better, it's the same exact relative effect.
No one seems to question the fact that the effect of AP is reduced linearly by armor, but the moment you bring reduction into the equation, the math just gets too hard. I believe this is the same phenomenon that leads people to believe that avoidance does not scale.
Well I've asked the question over in the feral druid thread(maybe not the best place), and at least one person confirmed what my knowledge and wiki say, that armor does not give diminishing returns, but no word on armor penetration giving increasing returns.
Well I've asked the question over in the feral druid thread(maybe not the best place), and at least one person confirmed what my knowledge and wiki say, that armor does not give diminishing returns, but no word on armor penetration giving increasing returns.
How would it be possible? The problem is that people see your damage going from 50% reduced to 49% reduced, and they think "oh, 1% damage," and then they see 10% reduction to 0% reduction and think "oh, 10% extra damage." When, unfortunately, relative damage doesn't work that way in the first case.
I don't know, hence my asking. I also don't know maths.
Septus on
PSN: Kurahoshi1
0
kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
[this post is mainly for my own benefit]
Basically, armor penetration linearly reduces the amount of time you'd take to kill a specific target.
Some hypothetical example:
Let's say you have two targets with the same amount of hp.
One of them has a moderate 5000 armor (using this as a reference). That armor grants him 33% damage reduction, or 50% extra survival time when taking physical dps.
The other target has 10000 armor, and he gets 50% damage reduction out of that. He gains 100% extra survival time when taking physical damage. That's how armor is linear, they're both receiving the same amount of survival time for each point of armor.
Let's say you need 100s of your damage -- which is all physical -- in order to kill one of these guys if they're completely unarmored. So, before any armor penetration, you'd need 150s to kill the first one and 200s to kill the second. If you gain a crazy 5000 armor penetration somehow, then you kill both targets 50s faster. You gain the same amount of "bonus" time from the armor penetration on each target, but due to ratios you gain more dps on the lower armored target. 150/100 is larger than 200/150.
Posts
Saying that, it seems like a very fun and versatile class to play. Having plenty of different specs offering similar levels of dps.
Keep up the good work gents and ladies.
Ah, so after switching to ruptures tonight, my DPS was higher. I just didn't move from 4th. Hunterslololol.
Does shiv do any damage at all or does it just apply the poison on that weapon?
If it DOES do damage, does dual-wield spec increase this damage?
http://wowwebstats.com/ajdhvgfdoew3a
Although I was haxxing it as I was on the naga, but that was as 41/20, which now we have the immune fuckers on farm I am staying with 4evah.
Oh and the slackers at the bottom are being talked too, they did so little dps we were almost 22 manning it
3pt snd 5pt rupture with find weakness always up, it just feels so right.
I used Mutilate for 2 weeks on Illidan attempts to test out finishers before Xmas. Phase1 is a pure tank-n-spank until 65% when Phase2 begins, so it's perfect for sustained DPS tests. Long story short: My best DPS numbers were without a doubt when keeping Rupture up as close to 100% as possible. Not even Envenom spam with 5/5 each poison talent, 270 hit, and running 40-48% crit sustained with the Lethality trinket was able to put up better numbers.
(I need more Ignore Armor before Evis really comes on strong as a solid 3rd finisher with Mutilate. T6 + Stormrage ring etc. adds up to around 840 before Executioner)
Missed this, yes it does wepn dmg and yes DW spec boosts it, my Prowlers Strikeblade (1.5, 95dps) shivs for about 300 non crit and 700 crit max, its no slouch for applying poison to start a dps cycle or shiv crippling in PVP, and with SF (I am 41/20) it can obviosly add 2 combos.
I played from 1 to 60 without any addons either.
Then I got Gatherer.
Things went downhill from there.
Soon I was downloading an entire compliation pack, but that was too much, so I'd disable some I didn't want/like.
Then one of the 1.0x patches broke like EVERYTHING I had, and the great mod purge of 2005 began. I pared it down to barebones, and began building back up.
I'm back up to a healthy number again, and am thinking that I may just need to do another purge at some point, but they're all so good! Charactersviewer! Omen! DBM, SCT and SWSTATS!
Either way though, the 2 to 3 point SnD and Rupture cycle seemed to work out extremely well, and I think I'll probably stick with it.
As for mods, yeah it all started with Cartographer for me, and then a HUD, now I have about 5 or 6 addons I literally cannot play the game without. But yeah, the 90% aggro threat screen glow (with Omen) is awesome and has saved my ass several times now.
Boot the mages and invite me!!
16 hit is that important. I was a fucking retard and got rid of my cloak of inciter for Dory's and now I regret doing it. I really wish I still had the Inciter for Raiding...
P.S. the new shadow step is so awesome it even makes WSG fun
I'd have to have the numbers beside me, but offhand I disagree, and we probably all know how much of a huge hit whore I am.
You're losing just over 1% to hit, but look at what you're gaining!
I'm wearing Dory's currently, and my hit is currently down at 276 before food. I'm hoping to get a few upgrades with actual Hit on them, but only time (and the RNG) shall tell.
So I figure the 16hit will be replaced rather quickly as I acquire more gear. So far all I've really gotten were the t4 gloves and gloves of dextrous manipulation. Oh, and the engineering scope plans from Attumen.
I think where you sit with your hit rating definitely affects which you would wear, but since I'm sitting at like 234 unbuffed hit, I need every little bit I can get my hands on.
Cloak of the Inciter
+15 Stamina
Requires Level 68
Equip: Improves hit rating by 16 (1.13% @ L68)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 18 (0.91% @ L68).
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Dory's Embrace
114 Armor
+34 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 20 (0.91% @ L70)
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 20 (0.51% @ L70)
Equip: Increases attack power by 46.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 112 of your opponent's armor.
Between the two:
Stamina - Dory's. Yes, stamina is nice for raiding, but it doesn't make or break an item.
Crit - Dory's. Yeah, by 2 rating, so basically, they are even
Hit - Inciters. Primary raid stat for Rogues until you start breaking 300 hit rating
AP - Dory's. Only 16 more AP, but that does make a slight difference.
Resilience - Useless
I'd go to say that if you have below 250 hit rating, to go for inciters, and if you have over 250, probably stick with Dory's. All preference though, both cloaks kick ass.
Also, throw +15 agility on either of those cloaks ASAP.
16 AP is nothing to overlook too easily, but I agree it's small.
You glossed over the Armour Penetration, however, which isn't a small thing after Sunder and whatnot are considered. Every point of Armour Penetration is more valuable than the last, up until the mob has 0 armour.
Also, it's 12 agility to cloaks unless there's a new enchant I'm unaware of, but now I'm just totally nitpicking, so I digress.
Edit: On that note, I understand that every point is better than the last, but that's always confused me, as when gearing for armor on a tank, every additional point of armor is just as valuable for end mitigation as the last.
And yeah I forgot about the armor penetration. Looking over the 2 again, you could pretty easily make up that 16 hit rating with two +8 hit dawnstones anyways, so yeah, I change my mind, Dory's is probably the better cloak even with its lack of hit.
I hope I'm not mistaken, but here's how I understand armour; diminishing returns.
1000 armour = however much % damage reduction.
Another 1000 armour (2000 total) is double the armour, but is not double the damage reduction.
And so on, and so on.
Taking 100 armour off a mob with 10,000 armour isn't much, agreed, but taking 100 armour off a mob with 5,000 armour increases your damage more. After Sunder Armour and Faerie Fire, which are a significant chunk of almost any mob's armour, that 200-500+ armour penetration can start looking pretty damned good.
... what would be the opposite of "Diminishing Returns"?
Each % of damage reduced is indeed equally or more valuable, but you need more raw armour to get that %, thus, diminishing returns.
Is 70 Paladin tankin as fun as level 30 paladin tanking?
I'm starting to enjoy it more than DPS'ing.
The way armor increases the total amount of damage you take before dying does not diminish.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor seems up to date.
It's all really debatable, to be honest.
Stam/Agi, Stam/Crit or AP/Crit, AP Gems, and for metas the 24 AP + Minor Runspeed Increase gem, or the 18 Stam gem (I prefer the AP, personally).
Some players opt for more AP, others for more stamina...Really, it's up to you. You know your play style better than anyone else, so while I decided on getting more AP, it may just work better for you to go with more stamina in your sockets. You'll always at least 1550 AP, though, and over 10k health, you'll probably hit 11k or so.
Right, your time to live gained from armor doesn't diminish, which makes me think that a bosses time to live would not reduce at an ever increasing rate, which is what seems to be the case when each additional point of penetration is better than the last.
I got Cloak of the Dark Reavers (or whatever) last night. Which is pretty much a direct upgrade to Inciter, except also has +agl. So I'm using that for PvE now, and Dory's for PvP. Until I have hit coming out of my ass from other gear at least.
It still boggles my mind that people haven't figured out that armor and armor penetration are both linear in terms of relative benefits. Just because the numbers are bigger on low armor targets doesn't mean that the effect is in any way better, it's the same exact relative effect.
No one seems to question the fact that the effect of AP is reduced linearly by armor, but the moment you bring reduction into the equation, the math just gets too hard. I believe this is the same phenomenon that leads people to believe that avoidance does not scale.
How would it be possible? The problem is that people see your damage going from 50% reduced to 49% reduced, and they think "oh, 1% damage," and then they see 10% reduction to 0% reduction and think "oh, 10% extra damage." When, unfortunately, relative damage doesn't work that way in the first case.
Basically, armor penetration linearly reduces the amount of time you'd take to kill a specific target.
Some hypothetical example:
Let's say you have two targets with the same amount of hp.
One of them has a moderate 5000 armor (using this as a reference). That armor grants him 33% damage reduction, or 50% extra survival time when taking physical dps.
The other target has 10000 armor, and he gets 50% damage reduction out of that. He gains 100% extra survival time when taking physical damage. That's how armor is linear, they're both receiving the same amount of survival time for each point of armor.
Let's say you need 100s of your damage -- which is all physical -- in order to kill one of these guys if they're completely unarmored. So, before any armor penetration, you'd need 150s to kill the first one and 200s to kill the second. If you gain a crazy 5000 armor penetration somehow, then you kill both targets 50s faster. You gain the same amount of "bonus" time from the armor penetration on each target, but due to ratios you gain more dps on the lower armored target. 150/100 is larger than 200/150.
It also doesn't help with the extremely vague explanations...