I don't know, hence my asking. I also don't know maths.
It also doesn't help with the extremely vague explanations...
Kaleedity has a good conceptual explanation. The basic thing to remember about scaling is that if a target has 50% mitigation, that means your total damage is 50% of what you would normally be doing, if you decrease their mitigation to 49%, that means your real damage just went up by 2%, since going from 50% to 51% damage is 1/50, not 1/100 extra damage.
Ah. Then someone could make the argument that the first 5000 armor increases your survival time by 50%, and the next 5000 armor increases your survival time by 33%, yet when itemizing for more armor, I would still consider each new point of armor just as valuable, and in the same sense, it seems that I would value each new point of penetration the same way. Hell, stamina(and, well, every stat) is the same. Each new point of stamina increases your total health by a smaller and smaller percent, but that doesn't mean it's not as valuable.
Ah. Then someone could make the argument that the first 5000 armor increases your survival time by 50%, and the next 5000 armor increases your survival time by 33%, yet when itemizing for more armor, I would still consider each new point of armor just as valuable, and in the same sense, it seems that I would value each new point of penetration the same way. Hell, stamina(and, well, every stat) is the same. Each new point of stamina increases your total health by a smaller and smaller percent, but that doesn't mean it's not as valuable.
Right, they all scale in one way or another, even if it looks like a flat amount. Which is why, say... going from 90% avoidance to 91% avoidance is ridiculously valuable, but going from 0% avoidance to 1% avoidance is ridiculously... not valuable. despite their itemization costs being the same.
But weren't you just making the argument that it is linear? If so, wouldn't 0% to 1% be just as valuable as going from 90 to 91%?
Ugh, so confused.
The value of each point of armor is linear, I went off on a tangent about other stats that I probably shouldn't have. In the 0-1% and the 90-91% case, the 91st percent would cost ten times as much in terms of armor as the 1st percent, because the 91st percent is ten times as effective.
Avoidance stats, however, are not linear in their effect, so in terms of itemization for avoidance, that 91st percent costs the same as the 1st percent, even though their effect is vastly different.
EDIT: Basically, armor penetration = teh gud. No matter what armor level your target is at.
But weren't you just making the argument that it is linear? If so, wouldn't 0% to 1% be just as valuable as going from 90 to 91%?
Ugh, so confused.
The value of each point of armor is linear, I went off on a tangent about other stats that I probably shouldn't have. In the 0-1% and the 90-91% case, the 91st percent would cost ten times as much in terms of armor as the 1st percent, because the 91st percent is ten times as effective.
Avoidance stats, however, are not linear in their effect, so in terms of itemization for avoidance, that 91st percent costs the same as the 1st percent, even though their effect is vastly different.
EDIT: Basically, armor penetration = teh gud. No matter what armor level your target is at.
:^:
Wavechaser on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
But weren't you just making the argument that it is linear? If so, wouldn't 0% to 1% be just as valuable as going from 90 to 91%?
Ugh, so confused.
The value of each point of armor is linear, I went off on a tangent about other stats that I probably shouldn't have. In the 0-1% and the 90-91% case, the 91st percent would cost ten times as much in terms of armor as the 1st percent, because the 91st percent is ten times as effective.
Avoidance stats, however, are not linear in their effect, so in terms of itemization for avoidance, that 91st percent costs the same as the 1st percent, even though their effect is vastly different.
EDIT: Basically, armor penetration = teh gud. No matter what armor level your target is at.
So I'm looking to respec to Sub and play around with Shadowstep for PvP. Combat is just way too much of a snoozefest for me and I've already checked out Mutilate.
What would you guys recommend in terms of talents? I've seen some go with Ass/Sub (typical Ambush sub set-up) while others go Comb/Sub (maces) and pop out of ShStep with Hemo instead of Ambush. Does anybody happen to have experience in this tree?
Yeah, I have been having a lot of fun with this build http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fZhxV0bVZxReo0GRoxst, Im using S2 MH and OH Swords.
Its good for BGs and sub 1600 arenas. Post 2.3.2 to really get your moneys worth out of hemo you need all 5 points of sinister calling. I dont use Shadow step (SStep) as a opener, unless I have to bypass something (or port up a level, thats cool as hell), I prefer to save it as a "closer". So after the mage blinks, vanish-SStep-CS or just SStep-hemo to the face. Cheat death is also good times, its my "From hells dark hart I spit at you" talent. There is a lot of hate for Sub but I find that it kicks ass and is super fun, hopefully you will also.
Yeah, Sub is a blast for PvP. Cheat Death is probably the single most hilarious talent ever concieved, as it can and does result in an entire EotS team beating on you without you dying or even taking noticeable damage.
Y'know, for about three seconds. But it's an entertaining three seconds.
And yes, tempting as it is to use Shadowstep as an opener, it's much, much better saved for once you've initiated combat and need to close some distance. As a gnome sub rogue, I have so many goddamn root breaks it's ridiculous, and I love it.
I've been playing with assassination/sub build, and am having a blast with it. I also have S2/S1 swords, and I just love bouncing around the fight and catching someone that thought they would get away. basically cheap shot, hemo, kidney shot, hemo, hemo, SnD for me. I rarely use anything but hemo as a main attack. You can get 5 combo points with prep and a single cheap shot, so you have a lot of options on your first finishing move.
The day of 2.3.2, I tried a dagger/ss build, and it was really fun, but hated waiting for the energy ticks between backstabs. I did have some 4200 crit ambushes with my 71dps mh (ceds carver), so I am interested in playing with a higher dps MH with that build. With all the little buffs, ambush can get up to something like +70% damage with shadowstep.
EDIT: Basically, armor penetration = teh gud. No matter what armor level your target is at.
The amount of armor value required to get each extra % physical damage reduction is *logarithmic* (or would the curve be considered exponential? I dunno anymore...)
Dropping a caster from 3500 --> 0 armor is going to eliminate ~25% physical dmg reduction.
Dropping a bear druid from 25000 --> 21500 armor is going to eliminate ~3% physical dmg reduction or something close to that ridiculously low number.
Basically: Each point of ignore armor is worth more than the last, but it only has a huge affect when dealing with low armor targets. (AKA casters in PvP, or Bosses which only have 6200 or 7200 ever before any raid debuffs)
Nice, thanks for the info! 'Any other sub builds you can recommend? I'm still not sure if I should go with Combat(maces)/Sub or Ass/Sub to take advantage of Ambush and Backstab.
I'll probably end up giving both a whirl but I'd still love to hear your opinions. Thanks!
so it looks like i'm coming back to WoW, and I plan on rolling an alt for the purpose of taking to BGs/arenas for the phat welfare epics, as well as the occasional raid on my priest. I've narrowed it down to hunter or rogue, leaning more towards a rogue. I just have a few questions for youz guyz.
- I've always liked playing melee classes in various games. I used to play a Warrior, but, while I do think I'd througally enjoy them again, I don't have the time to put forward becoming a main tank, and in the 25mans I did, we had no room for a DPS warrior. Also, the contasting talent trees seem like it'd be very difficult to maintain a dps in raid/pvp build efficiently. Does the same hold true for rogues? What about a certain spec, wouuld it fare well in both pve and pvp?
- What's the best race for rogues on alliance? Does the mace and sword skill humans get outshine escape artist? I'm planning on playing a Dorf again, as they are fucking awesome.
- What about professions? Is it worth it to pick up BS/leatherworking for certain pieces of gear, or would they be outshined by heroic/kara and gladiator epics?
- Are the rogues gimped in pvp? I've been reading the official forums lately (shut up, I know), and while it does seem like every class has this, rogues are even more filled with crying posts about having to reroll or else. should I be concerned about this, or does it really matter.
Thanks for any input. I'm still debating what I should roll, but I was always intrigued by this class.
so it looks like i'm coming back to WoW, and I plan on rolling an alt for the purpose of taking to BGs/arenas for the phat welfare epics, as well as the occasional raid on my priest. I've narrowed it down to hunter or rogue, leaning more towards a rogue. I just have a few questions for youz guyz.
- I've always liked playing melee classes in various games. I used to play a Warrior, but, while I do think I'd througally enjoy them again, I don't have the time to put forward becoming a main tank, and in the 25mans I did, we had no room for a DPS warrior. Also, the contasting talent trees seem like it'd be very difficult to maintain a dps in raid/pvp build efficiently. Does the same hold true for rogues? What about a certain spec, wouuld it fare well in both pve and pvp?
- What's the best race for rogues on alliance? Does the mace and sword skill humans get outshine escape artist? I'm planning on playing a Dorf again, as they are fucking awesome.
- What about professions? Is it worth it to pick up BS/leatherworking for certain pieces of gear, or would they be outshined by heroic/kara and gladiator epics?
- Are the rogues gimped in pvp? I've been reading the official forums lately (shut up, I know), and while it does seem like every class has this, rogues are even more filled with crying posts about having to reroll or else. should I be concerned about this, or does it really matter.
Thanks for any input. I'm still debating what I should roll, but I was always intrigued by this class.
- Combat Swords for leveling (or hemo swords / maces) then go with whatever is the general route.
- Preference, but I would go with Dwarfs cos there are not many about, stoneform is still a nice racial and so is find treasure when skilling LP
- Herb / Alch for everyday usefullness, Mining / Engi for being poor but loving it. The LW and BS epics are replaced by S1 gear imho so prob not worth it.
- Rogues are fine in PVP and deadly in lower lvl pvp and 70 BG's. We are not the greatest in 2k+ arena but by no means the worst, but so many people bitch about that yet so few would ever play there so ignore them. Muti in 5v5, SF Hemo is the new 2v2 with a healer bandwagon and same goes for 3v3 Priest Mage Rogue it seems.
Oh and no matter what, never never never fucking ever read the official forms, they are the breeding ground for malcontent immature 12 year olds and every class is brokem and everyone is quiting or re rolling so GG blizzz you broke it blah blah...
- Rogues are fine in PVP and deadly in lower lvl pvp and 70 BG's. We are not the greatest in 2k+ arena but by no means the worst, but so many people bitch about that yet so few would ever play there so ignore them. Muti in 5v5, SF Hemo is the new 2v2 with a healer bandwagon and same goes for 3v3 Priest Mage Rogue it seems.
It was our second Gruul's as a guild. Things went really well, and even though we had about 11 people in the raid not using DBM or BigWigs, we ended up downing Gruul on our 2nd attempt after one-shotting Highking, a guild best. We moved through loot, after an...iffy player getting the magus-blade over someone who's been in the guild for ages ( ) we started rolling on the DST, something that's only dropped 2 times for us.
I beat out one Rogue by 1 point, and another by 3. Talk about lucky.
Aaaand I was second on the meters tonight, .1% under 1 hunter, dominated the Rogue who won the DST the first week (Because he doesn't think he needs to vanish) and above 2 other Hunters after switching to a solid rupture rotation (Thank you Penny-Arcade ). I'm gunning for the #1 spot next week.
Sorry to brag, I'm just ridiculously excited.
Beck on
Lucas's Franklin Badge reflected the lightning back!
Haha, we have a rogue and a fury warrior who dragged out raid to "a quick gruul run" for months after we were in T5 instances. Never did see a DST drop.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
- Rogues are fine in PVP and deadly in lower lvl pvp and 70 BG's. We are not the greatest in 2k+ arena but by no means the worst, but so many people bitch about that yet so few would ever play there so ignore them. Muti in 5v5, SF Hemo is the new 2v2 with a healer bandwagon and same goes for 3v3 Priest Mage Rogue it seems.
SF Hemo = Seal Fate Hemo?
Yeah
And Rent is correct, I am assuming a certain lvl of gear before you arena as these days most people have full S1/2/3 and weapons.
I was in Nagrand, farming primal airs. And start extracting motes from a cloud on one of those floating islands above Nagrand. As I'm finishing up, a warrior flies up there. (must have been going for the cloud, too) He charges me and I blind him. So I'm sitting there, trying to figure out an escape, but realise there's no where to go. So I go after him and hope for the best. (i was PvE specced too)
I was in Nagrand, farming primal airs. And start extracting motes from a cloud on one of those floating islands above Nagrand. As I'm finishing up, a warrior flies up there. (must have been going for the cloud, too) He charges me and I blind him. So I'm sitting there, trying to figure out an escape, but realise there's no where to go. So I go after him and hope for the best. (i was PvE specced too)
I don't remember his name offhand. I do remember looking him up in the armory to make sure he was actually a warrior. But didn't bother doing a gear/talent check. However, my computer saves everything I enter into those little fields on armory, so I'll get his name when I go home. If I remember.
When I run around in BGs, I tend to just fight whoever I see. I'm not prejudiced. In that regard, I kick the shit out of warriors all the time, and I'm not even PvP specced (combat daggers, for now). I hate pallies with their stupid bubble, and mages with their stupid blink, and druids with their stupid shape-shifting clearing my cripple, and shaman with their stupid totems, and hunters and locks with their stupid pets, and priests with their stupid bubbles and heals, and warriors with their stupid billion hitpoints, and rogues with their stupid stun-locks...
...Anyway. It all comes down to the player (and gear, I suppose). For example, last night, another rogue and I were guarding Blacksmith in AB, and this warrior comes up and killed us both, despite bunches of stuns and armor reductions, and no heals. Pissed me off, because the two of us were doing pretty well keeping that place clear, but that guy... Man, he owned us.
LineNoiz on
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
Things have changed. I no longer fear the Warrior Pally combo in Arenas any longer, and frankly the odd warrior doesn't scare my rogue for shit in the BGs. Thanks to Blizzard's most recent "balancing" tweaks, I fear clothies and Druids now far more than I do plate-wearers.
Poorly geared warriors tend not to give me too much trouble. I once killed a full S2 warrior though, but obviously this was with AR-prep before 2.3.2 hit.
My next project is getting my Warrior to 70. That way I have the choice between Rogue/Pally/Warrior for a main when WotLK is released. The last thing I need is another class to worry about.
My next project is getting my Warrior to 70. That way I have the choice between Rogue/Pally/Warrior for a main when WotLK is released. The last thing I need is another class to worry about.
I would have thought you'd roll a healer next.
Unless once your warrior is 70 you're going to make Corwind a healer.
God damnit. I love PvPing with my rogue, i just hate doing it with my alliance chums
Whats the best horde rogue race for PvP, Undead or Orc?
If you ever judge race choice on anything but aesthetic personal reasons you're doing it wrong
ey? Because racials aren't very useful in PvP situations? ....
They are very useful but if you're playing a character that you dont absolutely love the appearance of just because you like the racial that seems completely retarded to me.
For example, I love the Troll racial Berserking, it would fucking own for almost any situation, but I'd never roll one, because I completely hate the way they look. Same goes for Orcs.
Dhalphir on
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
God damnit. I love PvPing with my rogue, i just hate doing it with my alliance chums
Whats the best horde rogue race for PvP, Undead or Orc?
I'll say this: I can't even conceive of being anything other than Undead for my rogue with as many goddamned warlocks as I go up against (and s.priests and warriors); WotF is a godsend for PvP with rogues. That extra fear break is huge for me.
My next project is getting my Warrior to 70. That way I have the choice between Rogue/Pally/Warrior for a main when WotLK is released. The last thing I need is another class to worry about.
I would have thought you'd roll a healer next.
Unless once your warrior is 70 you're going to make Corwind a healer.
No, I hate playing healer classes. I can't stand sitting there staring at bars, just not my playstyle. I plan on making my Warrior a PvP'er and offtanker, and I'll probably keep Cor as full Prot. I love tanking.
Posts
Kaleedity has a good conceptual explanation. The basic thing to remember about scaling is that if a target has 50% mitigation, that means your total damage is 50% of what you would normally be doing, if you decrease their mitigation to 49%, that means your real damage just went up by 2%, since going from 50% to 51% damage is 1/50, not 1/100 extra damage.
Right, they all scale in one way or another, even if it looks like a flat amount. Which is why, say... going from 90% avoidance to 91% avoidance is ridiculously valuable, but going from 0% avoidance to 1% avoidance is ridiculously... not valuable. despite their itemization costs being the same.
Ugh, so confused.
It's linear, but not when looking at the % damage reduction number.
Just do what I do... ask which piece of gear is better on here. Let everyone hash it out. And then pick the winner.
The value of each point of armor is linear, I went off on a tangent about other stats that I probably shouldn't have. In the 0-1% and the 90-91% case, the 91st percent would cost ten times as much in terms of armor as the 1st percent, because the 91st percent is ten times as effective.
Avoidance stats, however, are not linear in their effect, so in terms of itemization for avoidance, that 91st percent costs the same as the 1st percent, even though their effect is vastly different.
EDIT: Basically, armor penetration = teh gud. No matter what armor level your target is at.
:^:
DUH, BIG NUMBERS BE GOOD.
Thats what I use.
What would you guys recommend in terms of talents? I've seen some go with Ass/Sub (typical Ambush sub set-up) while others go Comb/Sub (maces) and pop out of ShStep with Hemo instead of Ambush. Does anybody happen to have experience in this tree?
Its good for BGs and sub 1600 arenas. Post 2.3.2 to really get your moneys worth out of hemo you need all 5 points of sinister calling. I dont use Shadow step (SStep) as a opener, unless I have to bypass something (or port up a level, thats cool as hell), I prefer to save it as a "closer". So after the mage blinks, vanish-SStep-CS or just SStep-hemo to the face. Cheat death is also good times, its my "From hells dark hart I spit at you" talent. There is a lot of hate for Sub but I find that it kicks ass and is super fun, hopefully you will also.
Y'know, for about three seconds. But it's an entertaining three seconds.
And yes, tempting as it is to use Shadowstep as an opener, it's much, much better saved for once you've initiated combat and need to close some distance. As a gnome sub rogue, I have so many goddamn root breaks it's ridiculous, and I love it.
The day of 2.3.2, I tried a dagger/ss build, and it was really fun, but hated waiting for the energy ticks between backstabs. I did have some 4200 crit ambushes with my 71dps mh (ceds carver), so I am interested in playing with a higher dps MH with that build. With all the little buffs, ambush can get up to something like +70% damage with shadowstep.
The amount of armor value required to get each extra % physical damage reduction is *logarithmic* (or would the curve be considered exponential? I dunno anymore...)
Dropping a caster from 3500 --> 0 armor is going to eliminate ~25% physical dmg reduction.
Dropping a bear druid from 25000 --> 21500 armor is going to eliminate ~3% physical dmg reduction or something close to that ridiculously low number.
Basically: Each point of ignore armor is worth more than the last, but it only has a huge affect when dealing with low armor targets. (AKA casters in PvP, or Bosses which only have 6200 or 7200 ever before any raid debuffs)
I'll probably end up giving both a whirl but I'd still love to hear your opinions. Thanks!
- I've always liked playing melee classes in various games. I used to play a Warrior, but, while I do think I'd througally enjoy them again, I don't have the time to put forward becoming a main tank, and in the 25mans I did, we had no room for a DPS warrior. Also, the contasting talent trees seem like it'd be very difficult to maintain a dps in raid/pvp build efficiently. Does the same hold true for rogues? What about a certain spec, wouuld it fare well in both pve and pvp?
- What's the best race for rogues on alliance? Does the mace and sword skill humans get outshine escape artist? I'm planning on playing a Dorf again, as they are fucking awesome.
- What about professions? Is it worth it to pick up BS/leatherworking for certain pieces of gear, or would they be outshined by heroic/kara and gladiator epics?
- Are the rogues gimped in pvp? I've been reading the official forums lately (shut up, I know), and while it does seem like every class has this, rogues are even more filled with crying posts about having to reroll or else. should I be concerned about this, or does it really matter.
Thanks for any input. I'm still debating what I should roll, but I was always intrigued by this class.
Any comments or suggestions? Again, I've never gone this deep into Sub so any extra info would be great.
- Combat Swords for leveling (or hemo swords / maces) then go with whatever is the general route.
- Preference, but I would go with Dwarfs cos there are not many about, stoneform is still a nice racial and so is find treasure when skilling LP
- Herb / Alch for everyday usefullness, Mining / Engi for being poor but loving it. The LW and BS epics are replaced by S1 gear imho so prob not worth it.
- Rogues are fine in PVP and deadly in lower lvl pvp and 70 BG's. We are not the greatest in 2k+ arena but by no means the worst, but so many people bitch about that yet so few would ever play there so ignore them. Muti in 5v5, SF Hemo is the new 2v2 with a healer bandwagon and same goes for 3v3 Priest Mage Rogue it seems.
Oh and no matter what, never never never fucking ever read the official forms, they are the breeding ground for malcontent immature 12 year olds and every class is brokem and everyone is quiting or re rolling so GG blizzz you broke it blah blah...
SF Hemo = Seal Fate Hemo?
It was our second Gruul's as a guild. Things went really well, and even though we had about 11 people in the raid not using DBM or BigWigs, we ended up downing Gruul on our 2nd attempt after one-shotting Highking, a guild best. We moved through loot, after an...iffy player getting the magus-blade over someone who's been in the guild for ages (
I beat out one Rogue by 1 point, and another by 3. Talk about lucky.
Aaaand I was second on the meters tonight, .1% under 1 hunter, dominated the Rogue who won the DST the first week (Because he doesn't think he needs to vanish) and above 2 other Hunters after switching to a solid rupture rotation (Thank you Penny-Arcade
Sorry to brag, I'm just ridiculously excited.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Yeah
And Rent is correct, I am assuming a certain lvl of gear before you arena as these days most people have full S1/2/3 and weapons.
I was in Nagrand, farming primal airs. And start extracting motes from a cloud on one of those floating islands above Nagrand. As I'm finishing up, a warrior flies up there. (must have been going for the cloud, too) He charges me and I blind him. So I'm sitting there, trying to figure out an escape, but realise there's no where to go. So I go after him and hope for the best. (i was PvE specced too)
He's down in about 3 seconds.
Huh?
He sucked. DO you remember his name?
...Anyway. It all comes down to the player (and gear, I suppose). For example, last night, another rogue and I were guarding Blacksmith in AB, and this warrior comes up and killed us both, despite bunches of stuns and armor reductions, and no heals. Pissed me off, because the two of us were doing pretty well keeping that place clear, but that guy... Man, he owned us.
I ask you, how fucked up is that?
My next project is getting my Warrior to 70. That way I have the choice between Rogue/Pally/Warrior for a main when WotLK is released. The last thing I need is another class to worry about.
I would have thought you'd roll a healer next.
Unless once your warrior is 70 you're going to make Corwind a healer.
Whats the best horde rogue race for PvP, Undead or Orc?
If you ever judge race choice on anything but aesthetic personal reasons you're doing it wrong
ey? Because racials aren't very useful in PvP situations? ....
They are very useful but if you're playing a character that you dont absolutely love the appearance of just because you like the racial that seems completely retarded to me.
For example, I love the Troll racial Berserking, it would fucking own for almost any situation, but I'd never roll one, because I completely hate the way they look. Same goes for Orcs.
No, I hate playing healer classes. I can't stand sitting there staring at bars, just not my playstyle. I plan on making my Warrior a PvP'er and offtanker, and I'll probably keep Cor as full Prot. I love tanking.