Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
I think that the most ridiculous PvP rogue is going to be sub, simply because of Honor Among Theives and Shadowdance+ambush.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
There is one shitty thing about the energy changes. No more cheap shotting right before an energy tick to get an (effectively) half-price Cheap Shot.
True, but it probably balances out really quickly with not needing to wait 2 seconds to kill something at the end.
Yeah, agreed. Overall, I'm okay with it.
It'll take some readjustment to be sure. After playing a rogue since launch, I've gotten so used to the 2 second regen that I almost play things like a rhythm game instead of watching my energy bar.
It'll take some readjustment to be sure. After playing a rogue since launch, I've gotten so used to the 2 second regen that I almost play things like a rhythm game instead of watching my energy bar.
you can still play like that the energy regen is the same energy/second. If you know the rhythm or like to play with a metronome you won't see a difference, other than lower energy skills lighting up in between 2 second ticks
Finally saved up 18k honor yesterday and bought myself the S2 MH Dagger in order to prepare myself for the new tree's in WotLK. I have to say, after some initial frustration, I really do enjoy the Mutilate build. There is so much damn potential there, I'm excited for the WotLK changes.
The last time I played a Mutilate build was before puncturing wounds also affected Mutilate, so now I'm seeing double mutilate crits all over the damn place. Although, after playing sub for so long, I keep hitting my keybinding for shadowstep and it's just not working...
How would you Rogues compare my Mutilate build (41,0,20) to like a 17,0,44 sub dagger build for general PvE and PvP stuff. (No, not arena)
I raid mutilate (40/20/0) and it is really fun. I can keep up with the combat rogues so I'm not really gimping myself.
However for BGs and 5mans/heroics/solo I much prefer sub. Lower cooldowns on vanish/evasion are life savers, cheat death is great for when things go wrong in 5mans (as is being able to vanish twice on boss wipes. Vanish once when tank dies to clear threat and then vanish again when everyone is dead to reset boss). Imp sap and stealth are also great for trash (but I guess you'd probally have that as 41/0/x) and shadowstep is great for ninja teleport goodness.
I was thinking today about how shadow dance will work. It will be great for solo but will get worse with more people around. Ideal attack pattern would be:
Cheapshot -> Amsbush -> KS -> Ambush -> Ambush. From here you can gouge/blind/stand and fight. Having a druid around will really screw you up though, as will having people beating on you (I have no doubt a hunter pet will render this completly useless).
I can't see you having the energy to do all that during a 6 second shadow dance. It would take 200 Energy to do all of that, with everything talented down. It would take 20 seconds to generate 200 energy.
EDIT: I still find Shadow Dance underwhelming. It will be a fantastic escape tool, though.
So.... if you don't mind waiting around for energy (1 second for Ambush #2, and 2.5 seconds for Ambush #3) it could work. The Kidney Shot will be 4 seconds at the low end, and 6 seconds max.
I'm also assuming that though it doesn't trigger the GCD, you have to wait out the GCD before you can activate it. I don't know that that's how it works, of course.
Yea I'll have to play around with it a bit to get a feel for it, but I'll most likely be going deep assassination anyways. Hunger for blood looks so good and if shadow dance is just normal stealth then it will probally fail 1/2 the time.
Yea I'll have to play around with it a bit to get a feel for it, but I'll most likely be going deep assassination anyways. Hunger for blood looks so good and if shadow dance is just normal stealth then it will probally fail 1/2 the time.
I'm 90% sure it's a Vanish, each time. I mean, that's the only way it makes sense, really.
Dear rogue thread, here is my character. I like to think I have alright gear (save for the belt, shoulders and chest), but my AP is still low. Suggestions?
It just wasn't meant to be. I played Mutilate for one night and gave up on daggers yet again. No matter how hard I try I can't get myself to tolerate positional combat.
Oh well back to combat, haven't played that in awhile...
Yea I'll have to play around with it a bit to get a feel for it, but I'll most likely be going deep assassination anyways. Hunger for blood looks so good and if shadow dance is just normal stealth then it will probally fail 1/2 the time.
I'm 90% sure it's a Vanish, each time. I mean, that's the only way it makes sense, really.
Yea but vanish fails fairly often when you're under attack. Not to mention people will be able to stop it fairly easily if it isn't 1 on 1 (with AoE etc).
It just wasn't meant to be. I played Mutilate for one night and gave up on daggers yet again. No matter how hard I try I can't get myself to tolerate positional combat.
Oh well back to combat, haven't played that in awhile...
I predict you will go back to Sub by the end of the night.
Dear rogue thread, here is my character. I like to think I have alright gear (save for the belt, shoulders and chest), but my AP is still low. Suggestions?
I would focus on Hit first, AP/Crit stuff second. You are on the right track though, good gemming of your gear and such, you just either need to PvP for some welfare stuff or do some raiding/instancing to replace those greens with better gear.
It just wasn't meant to be. I played Mutilate for one night and gave up on daggers yet again. No matter how hard I try I can't get myself to tolerate positional combat.
Oh well back to combat, haven't played that in awhile...
I predict you will go back to Sub by the end of the night.
I guess 225 would be a good number to shoot for, for starters. Try to get your hands on Romulo's Poison Vial from the Opera Event in Karazhan. Another great trinket is the Shard of Contempt from Heroic Magister's Terrace. It's Expertise, not hit, but this is also an important stat.
I guess 225 would be a good number to shoot for, for starters. Try to get your hands on Romulo's Poison Vial from the Opera Event in Karazhan. Another great trinket is the Shard of Contempt from Heroic Magister's Terrace. It's Expertise, not hit, but this is also an important stat.
For a "skull con" boss (level 73 equivelent) the cap with 5/5 precision is 363, as I recall.
However, against a level 70 target it's only around 315 or 316, and remember that +20 hit food is fairly easy to come by if you continue doing the cooking daily.
In dungeon 3 rares and equivelent gear, getting over 250 can be challenging. Once you open up T4 content (with things like the Poison Vial, and T4 which has plenty of hit and red/yellow gem slots for more hit), getting up to and over 300 becomes much easier.
Funny enough, actual T5 has very little hit on it, as do S1 and S2. S3, however, does have hit on a couple pieces, making it an easily obtainable replacement for ~T4 if you're raiding and have crappy gear or crappy RNG luck. I believe S4 continues this line of itemization, but haven't paid much attention to it.
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First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
He certainly doesn't need to get 250 for Karazhan, that's for sure. After you've gotten what's needed from there along with badge loot and Magtheridon/Gruul's, it'll be easy to get there.
Armoury blocked at work as always, what's the spec?
If it's combat, then Hit is the most important thing you can have (without being a retard and taking, like, a rare with 14 hit over an epic with 12 hit and 34 extra AP).
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First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I think, having tried it both ways, I like having the tools from assassination first before going into subtlety. Having Malice, remorseless attacks and puncturing wounds available to you at an early level is a very good thing.
So why do I get shit on by everyone for being a rogue?
It sucks when everybody thinks your "skill" is actually just flavor of the month overpoweredness. Not that it really matters, but it's a little disheartening. Are we going to be nerfed sometime soon?
So why do I get shit on by everyone for being a rogue?
It sucks when everybody thinks your "skill" is actually just flavor of the month overpoweredness. Not that it really matters, but it's a little disheartening. Are we going to be nerfed sometime soon?
combat is good with swords, sub is fun but man they nerfed the shit out of cheat death under level 70.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Thing is, I don't even understand why we're being called "overpowered" again. I haven't heard that since the early days of patch 2.0 with the implementation of Cloak of Shadows, and not before that since the days before the instant attack "normalization".
Has something changed recently that has kicked us up into "OP" territory, because someone forgot to send me my 'I win' button.
i would say the consensus this time around is that cheat death is too good. bad rogues all of a sudden became good rogues and it wasn't their skill that got better.
it has been 'fixed' but people haven't gotten the memo yet.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Ah yes, Cheat Death.
Meh, they can nerf the shit out of that (haven't they already?). But if they start fucking with the effectiveness of the rest of the class as it stands now because PvPers are whining again, there will be blood.
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Yeah, agreed. Overall, I'm okay with it.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents2.html?tal=005303105000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000550003033030120350135231051
It'll take some readjustment to be sure. After playing a rogue since launch, I've gotten so used to the 2 second regen that I almost play things like a rhythm game instead of watching my energy bar.
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you can still play like that the energy regen is the same energy/second. If you know the rhythm or like to play with a metronome you won't see a difference, other than lower energy skills lighting up in between 2 second ticks
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents2.html?tal=005023105000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000550243130230121050105031251
However I havent messed around with daggers in about a year so that could be off. ShadowDance Ambushes seem exciting though.
The last time I played a Mutilate build was before puncturing wounds also affected Mutilate, so now I'm seeing double mutilate crits all over the damn place. Although, after playing sub for so long, I keep hitting my keybinding for shadowstep and it's just not working...
How would you Rogues compare my Mutilate build (41,0,20) to like a 17,0,44 sub dagger build for general PvE and PvP stuff. (No, not arena)
However for BGs and 5mans/heroics/solo I much prefer sub. Lower cooldowns on vanish/evasion are life savers, cheat death is great for when things go wrong in 5mans (as is being able to vanish twice on boss wipes. Vanish once when tank dies to clear threat and then vanish again when everyone is dead to reset boss). Imp sap and stealth are also great for trash (but I guess you'd probally have that as 41/0/x) and shadowstep is great for ninja teleport goodness.
I was thinking today about how shadow dance will work. It will be great for solo but will get worse with more people around. Ideal attack pattern would be:
Cheapshot -> Amsbush -> KS -> Ambush -> Ambush. From here you can gouge/blind/stand and fight. Having a druid around will really screw you up though, as will having people beating on you (I have no doubt a hunter pet will render this completly useless).
Where does Shadow Dance fit into this rotation.
I can't see you having the energy to do all that during a 6 second shadow dance. It would take 200 Energy to do all of that, with everything talented down. It would take 20 seconds to generate 200 energy.
EDIT: I still find Shadow Dance underwhelming. It will be a fantastic escape tool, though.
Warning, Math incoming...
CS = Cheap Shot
AB = Ambush
SD = Shadow Dance
KS = Kidney Shot
CS - 0.00 - 60 (2 [3] CP)
SD - 1.50 - 75
AB - 1.50 - 30 (3 [4] CP)
KS - 3.00 - 20 (4 [5] seconds)
SD - 4.50 - 35
AB - 5.50 - 00
SD - 7.50 - 20
AB - 10.0 - 00
So.... if you don't mind waiting around for energy (1 second for Ambush #2, and 2.5 seconds for Ambush #3) it could work. The Kidney Shot will be 4 seconds at the low end, and 6 seconds max.
I'm also assuming that though it doesn't trigger the GCD, you have to wait out the GCD before you can activate it. I don't know that that's how it works, of course.
I'm 90% sure it's a Vanish, each time. I mean, that's the only way it makes sense, really.
Oh well back to combat, haven't played that in awhile...
Yea but vanish fails fairly often when you're under attack. Not to mention people will be able to stop it fairly easily if it isn't 1 on 1 (with AoE etc).
EDIT: @Toldo
How much do I need, exactly?
I would focus on Hit first, AP/Crit stuff second. You are on the right track though, good gemming of your gear and such, you just either need to PvP for some welfare stuff or do some raiding/instancing to replace those greens with better gear.
Most likely...
For PvE content? Tons. The cap is 300+
I guess 225 would be a good number to shoot for, for starters. Try to get your hands on Romulo's Poison Vial from the Opera Event in Karazhan. Another great trinket is the Shard of Contempt from Heroic Magister's Terrace. It's Expertise, not hit, but this is also an important stat.
However, against a level 70 target it's only around 315 or 316, and remember that +20 hit food is fairly easy to come by if you continue doing the cooking daily.
In dungeon 3 rares and equivelent gear, getting over 250 can be challenging. Once you open up T4 content (with things like the Poison Vial, and T4 which has plenty of hit and red/yellow gem slots for more hit), getting up to and over 300 becomes much easier.
Funny enough, actual T5 has very little hit on it, as do S1 and S2. S3, however, does have hit on a couple pieces, making it an easily obtainable replacement for ~T4 if you're raiding and have crappy gear or crappy RNG luck. I believe S4 continues this line of itemization, but haven't paid much attention to it.
It's definitely not going to hurt his DPS. A raid is a raid. The bosses in Kara aren't any easier to hit than the bosses in SWP, as far as I know.
If it's combat, then Hit is the most important thing you can have (without being a retard and taking, like, a rare with 14 hit over an epic with 12 hit and 34 extra AP).
It sucks when everybody thinks your "skill" is actually just flavor of the month overpoweredness. Not that it really matters, but it's a little disheartening. Are we going to be nerfed sometime soon?
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Yeah what Wave said, just get used to it.
Has something changed recently that has kicked us up into "OP" territory, because someone forgot to send me my 'I win' button.
it has been 'fixed' but people haven't gotten the memo yet.
Meh, they can nerf the shit out of that (haven't they already?). But if they start fucking with the effectiveness of the rest of the class as it stands now because PvPers are whining again, there will be blood.