Thing is, I don't even understand why we're being called "overpowered" again. I haven't heard that since the early days of patch 2.0 with the implementation of Cloak of Shadows, and not before that since the days before the instant attack "normalization".
Has something changed recently that has kicked us up into "OP" territory, because someone forgot to send me my 'I win' button.
It's kind of like with locks when they first got Death Coil to a lesser degree. It's a monstrously powerful ability (it hurts less now but back in the day . . .), but people tend to forget how much locks sucked before it.
Now any good rogue pvper knows that the rogue lives and often dies by cooldowns or lack thereof, which is significantly different from any class. Hence, smart rogues know that it's not a good idea to attack unless certain cooldowns are up unless you have a much more pressing matter that doesn't let you wait to open up. Some people can't get over the fact that rogues have no real counter class so much as being countered by situational stuff like cooldowns still ticking and being caught in stealth.
Now add what cheat death was sometimes like to the mix, and people will be louder. I disagree with the power many saw in cheat death. It never won me a fight I wouldn't have won by just blinding my target and bandaging, it just sometimes prevented me from flat out dying and giving me a moment to escape. I consider routing someone a win though even if I don't get honor points for a kill, most people seem to not feel the same.
By now however, rogues are everywhere and have geared up quite a bit. When I reactivated my account 2 months ago, I was bumping into tons of rogues in S3/S2 and raid gear and losing handily in my pvp blues and year of off time. I've since done well enough in arenas and kara raids to be a part of that group. The result is that a lot of people are having their faces smashed in by rogues and unlike being gibbed and dotted by mages and locks from across the map, it's a bit more memorable when you see a rogue up close stunning you.
Early on, before resilience was adjusted, you had warlocks running around in tailored gear with a nice health return effect (it's not much, but as any pvp'er knows, ANYTHING that gives you health is worth looking at, especially when it's effectively free) that was essentially T5 or better while many others had D3 or worse.
However, rogues of course scale very well with their weapons, and the relatively easy availability of S1 and S2 weapons put them back in the fight to a better degree than they had been.
There's also the ever-present hatred of our ability to lockdown classes, particularly casters, who usually wear cloth. Resilience and heavy Stam pvp gear means that literally going from 100% to 0 while in stunlock is far less likely, but people seldom let go of hatred and prejudices that are deeply rooted.
I'd say the only class that gets nearly as much shit (but deservedly so) are Druids. Seriously, fuck druids. I don't really mind fighting any other class, but a well played druid can lock down 2 people on their own while the other member(s) of their team go to town. I hear in 5's this isn't nearly the case, but my only experiences are in 2's and 3's, so this is a small comfort.
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There's also the ever-present hatred of our ability to lockdown classes, particularly casters, who usually wear cloth. Resilience and heavy Stam pvp gear means that literally going from 100% to 0 while in stunlock is far less likely, but people seldom let go of hatred and prejudices that are deeply rooted.
And just because there is pvp gear available doesn't mean people are smart enough to use it. Many people insist on trying to get by with raid epics going for all out damage instead of survivability. The premed, cheapshot, expose armor, gouge, vanish, garrote, hemo, kidney shot/rupture sequence is especially brutal on them.
I'd say the only class that gets nearly as much shit (but deservedly so) are Druids. Seriously, fuck druids. I don't really mind fighting any other class, but a well played druid can lock down 2 people on their own while the other member(s) of their team go to town. I hear in 5's this isn't nearly the case, but my only experiences are in 2's and 3's, so this is a small comfort.
CC and healing in one package is extremely potent in the smaller brackets, less so in 5s. Likewise, rogues lose power in 5s as there are many more people around to snare/root you. My usual job in 5s is to either force a pali to waste a bubble on themselves instead of the team mate the 2 other dps are on (I've long been in significantly worse gear, though that's a decreasing gap) or to stay on a druid to prevent cyclones.
In my 3s team, I seem to be de facto leader and I can't count how often my instructions come down to "We CC this target, then dps this target until the druid comes out of stealth AND YOU KNOW THERE WILL BE ONE."
Thing is, I don't even understand why we're being called "overpowered" again. I haven't heard that since the early days of patch 2.0 with the implementation of Cloak of Shadows, and not before that since the days before the instant attack "normalization".
Has something changed recently that has kicked us up into "OP" territory, because someone forgot to send me my 'I win' button.
Sub Hemo Rogues are basically overpowered, I play one and I can admit it. I can basically square off against almost any class and win, I can even take out well geared warriors in most situations. The only class I don't stand a snowballs chance in hell against is a Resto Druid, but neither does any other class so i'm not sure if it counts.
And then of course the nature of our class is stuns, and as you know, the most frustrating part of PvP for anyone is the loss of control of their character. So you combine the OP aspect of our current Sub PvP builds with the fact our class is literally based on stunning people to death, and you get a double dose of hate from everyone.
Agreed in regards to stuns. I'd be fine if we had better survivability but used stuns more for interrupting people than for locking them down.
I like what they did with fear; for the most part, if you're getting the shit kicked out of you, you're probably going to break free pretty quickly. Yes, sometimes the RNG hates you and you get violated while running around at mach 2, but I mean in general, it's not that bad. They had to nerf fear like 17 fucking times, but it's about right, imo.
Stuns, however, you just sit there and take it. Roughly. Through the pants.
I've played a rogue main since WoW's release and even I recognize that in PVP, it's a terribly frustrating class to fight against, but that's just how we're designed.
Pick a target, pick the place to fight, and then violate them. Get caught out in the open and we may well be screwed, but having the ability to pick the time and place for most of said fights is truly invaluable.
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I've played a rogue main since WoW's release and even I recognize that in PVP, it's a terribly frustrating class to fight against, but that's just how we're designed.
Pick a target, pick the place to fight, and then violate them. Get caught out in the open and we may well be screwed, but having the ability to pick the time and place for most of said fights is truly invaluable.
This is why in PvP while playing any class (especially my Rogue), I will always target other Rogues first. I love to play mine, but god damn I hate playing against them. Nothing is worse than sitting there getting stunned from 100% to 30% because your 2 minute trinket is on cooldown.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Meh, I don't know. Stuns can be frustrating, to be sure, but just about any CC is annoying (except for Poly. D'aww, thanks for healing me, lil' mage buddy).
I'd argue that fear is worse because it's spammable, and even with diminishing returns, it's the only form of CC that not only incapacitates the player but ALSO pushes them away from you, giving you more time to A) get away or rape you through the pants. And in some cases, C) both.
I mean, I get that being stunned sucks, but there are enough ways out of it and there's enough time in between when we can do it that it's not just "lock down and burn from 100 to 0%" anymore. Back in the early pre-TBC days you could make a case for it, but between all the stamina that the season gear gives and the talents that each class was given in TBC (plus the 2 minute cooldown PVP trinket), stunlock just isn't what it used to be.
Agreed in regards to stuns. I'd be fine if we had better survivability but used stuns more for interrupting people than for locking them down.
I like what they did with fear; for the most part, if you're getting the shit kicked out of you, you're probably going to break free pretty quickly. Yes, sometimes the RNG hates you and you get violated while running around at mach 2, but I mean in general, it's not that bad. They had to nerf fear like 17 fucking times, but it's about right, imo.
Stuns, however, you just sit there and take it. Roughly. Through the pants.
I've played a rogue main since WoW's release and even I recognize that in PVP, it's a terribly frustrating class to fight against, but that's just how we're designed.
Not just how we're designed, but also a factor of how the other classes are designed. Almost every other class wants to stay at range and has a way to try instantly enable that so it's not like you can normally not use stuns and win one on one. We have a diametrically opposed preferred range to most of the game population and I abhorred what felt like running after a headless chicken back in 60's pvp when we didn't have shiv and crippling poison didn't take.
I mean, I get that being stunned sucks, but there are enough ways out of it and there's enough time in between when we can do it that it's not just "lock down and burn from 100 to 0%" anymore. Back in the early pre-TBC days you could make a case for it, but between all the stamina that the season gear gives and the talents that each class was given in TBC (plus the 2 minute cooldown PVP trinket), stunlock just isn't what it used to be.
Where are you getting this? When did anyone say you get "locked down and burned from 100 to 0"? I think everyone here realizes that such a thing has all but been eradicated as of BC and resilience.
Stunlock may not be all that it used to be, but it is still extreeeeemely frustrating when you are on the recieving end, and considering this whole discussion was spurred off of someone asking why everyone hates Rogue's, it was a very appropriate statement.
Yes, all CC is frustrating, but combine massive CC with a Sub Hemo Rogue with a billion ways to escape death and who stealths around out of sight until he wants to strike, you have someone that is going to be loathed and hated by basically the entirety of the WoW population.
Also don't forget, there are a hajillion rogues out there, so that doesn't help our image either.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
No one specifically said that, I was just using the phrase to illustrate my point. I was the one who asked the question 'why are we getting the "OP" tag again after so long', and while I understand where you're coming from in regards to stunlock/Subtlety specced rogues being frustrating, it just didn't make sense for that to be the sole reasoning. This whole outcry of "OP" is something I've been hearing more recently as of late, so that's what triggered the confusion, as Subtlety specced rogues have been around for a while.
The Cheat Death thing makes the most sense, though, but as has been mentioned, that's been fixed for a while now.
If I'm raid destro, I can be pretty close to stun locked from 100% to 0% in my pvp gear (granted, it's not fantastic gear) by a well geared rogue if I don't trinket out.
That's why I don't pvp as destro, and why I use my trinket.
(Actually, sometimes I do pvp in bgs as destro, but in that case I'm retarded, and I specifically don't sacrifice my pet so I can seduce and run away.)
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I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
Hmm, after lurking and reading everyone's suggestion, it looks like I've put far too much importance on AP and not enough on +hit. Which is funny because pre-BC, I was way too focused on Crit and was surprised when AP was apparently the new hottness in BC (at least when it came to all the quest loot I was getting).
So, when WotLK comes out, do you guys think it'll remain that +hit and then AP are still the stats to focus on? (And Crit/Resilience/Stam for PvP) Obviously AGI is important too, but that's pretty much assumed.
druids and rogues will share gear meaning there will be enough +hit on gear to reach the yellow cap but you are expected to socket +hit after that.
There is no telling what WLK talents and skills will bring but based on how raiding is now, I would say +hit will be even more important against level 83 bosses, especially since the +hit requirement will be higher than it is now at 80.
druids and rogues will share gear meaning there will be enough +hit on gear to reach the yellow cap but you are expected to socket +hit after that.
There is no telling what WLK talents and skills will bring but based on how raiding is now, I would say +hit will be even more important against level 83 bosses, especially since the +hit requirement will be higher than it is now at 80.
Uhhh, what? The amount of hit rating on gear will scale like everything else, the +hit requirement as a % will be the exact same. I also think they plan on tweaking the hit system.
if the conversions stay the same, it will be 32 hit rating for 1% hit at 80. Currently it is 15 hit rating for 1% hit at lvl 70, and 10 hit rating at 60.
if the conversions stay the same, it will be 32 hit rating for 1% hit at 80. Currently it is 15 hit rating for 1% hit at lvl 70.
Yes, that's the point. The hit rating on gear will go up, look at 60 gear compared to 70 gear. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37767 example of lvl 76 helmet.
meaning you will need more hit rating then you do now at 70, which is what i said.
blue has said that druids will be able to share gear with rogues and not go over their hit rating cap. which means base gear will have enough (or close) hit rating to reach the yellow cap and if you want to reach the white cap as a rogue you will have to socket for hit.
rogues now value hit over most other stats and if this stays the same you will still have to socket for hit, and the rating needed will be about double then it is now at 70.
meaning you will need more hit rating then you do now at 70, which is what i said.
blue has said that druids will be able to share gear with rogues and not go over their hit rating cap. which means base gear will have enough (or close) hit rating to reach the yellow cap and if you want to reach the white cap as a rogue you will have to socket for hit.
rogues now value hit over most other stats and if this stays the same you will still have to socket for hit, and the rating needed will be about double then it is now at 70.
He didn't say all leather gear would only have a little hit. Also, Mgcw is not arguing that you'll need more hit. Of course you will. But it will be about as easy/difficult to get as it is now. Count on that. Hit Rating needed scales with level. Hit Rating on gear will scale as well. A top rogue piece now might have 32 HR (~2%), a top rogue piece in Wrath will likely have 66 HR (~2%).
If rogues and feral druids are to share gear, I wonder if this means that rogues will get more out of Strength, or if they're going to have druids get more out of AP gear.
Plus, given all that "enhanced armour" shit, I have strong doubts about there being one set between both classes. It's wasted itemization on a rogue, so unless there are literally no other options available, I suspect there'll still be "druid gear" and "rogue gear", it'll just be less of a waste on the other class.
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"blue has said that druids will be able to share gear with rogues."
It doesn't say "Rogues and Druids will share all gear." There is, without a shadow of a doubt, going to be gear that's clearly aimed at one class or the other.
That said, they've said the same thing about fury warriors, ret paladins and deathknights, for example. Obviously the Tier stuff will be aimed solely at their class, but I suspect we'll see a lot of generic drops that are either very good for all viable classes, or a Sunmote system where you can tweak them as needed.
I mean, what's the point of touting how you're going to make gearing people easier if you still have 31+ specs worth of gear to itemize?
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No one specifically said that, I was just using the phrase to illustrate my point. I was the one who asked the question 'why are we getting the "OP" tag again after so long', and while I understand where you're coming from in regards to stunlock/Subtlety specced rogues being frustrating, it just didn't make sense for that to be the sole reasoning. This whole outcry of "OP" is something I've been hearing more recently as of late, so that's what triggered the confusion, as Subtlety specced rogues have been around for a while.
The Cheat Death thing makes the most sense, though, but as has been mentioned, that's been fixed for a while now.
I think the population of the class active in pvp is a huge culprit. Cheat Death may have been fixed, but anyone that rolled a rogue when it was better (though again, I never got much out of it when it was better. I think it was probably more PvE geared rogues getting it and doing better than other classes in PvE gear that really affected perceptions of it) probably hasn't stopped playing the rogue since then.
So why do I get shit on by everyone for being a rogue?
It sucks when everybody thinks your "skill" is actually just flavor of the month overpoweredness. Not that it really matters, but it's a little disheartening. Are we going to be nerfed sometime soon?
Flavor of the month? Flavor of three years. Anyway, don't think too much of it. People just see the damage numbers and don't think of all the BS you gotta go through to get those numbers.
So, any Rogue's here in the Beta? I really want to get an idea of how good killing spree is and how it looks in action.
It seems like it is not implemented yet as all it does is turn you red and do nothing from what I saw.
I swear to god, if one of the Rogue top talents is essentially a petless Beastial Wrath...
On the bright side, it will make my transition to Warrior-main a lot easier. Right now i'm still 50/50, if the top tier combat talents are really really good, I'll probably keep my rogue as my main. I'm underwhelmed with the other trees completely since I don't do daggers.
So, any Rogue's here in the Beta? I really want to get an idea of how good killing spree is and how it looks in action.
It seems like it is not implemented yet as all it does is turn you red and do nothing from what I saw.
I swear to god, if one of the Rogue top talents is essentially a petless Beastial Wrath...
On the bright side, it will make my transition to Warrior-main a lot easier. Right now i'm still 50/50, if the top tier combat talents are really really good, I'll probably keep my rogue as my main. I'm underwhelmed with the other trees completely since I don't do daggers.
Why not skip the 51 pt talent (I think it's amazing, FWIW), and go 21/50. +20% poison damage, and +10% chance to apply poisons. Or Cold Blood, though I think that would be a waste for raiding.
Unless the numbers skew way to the higher talents and I'm just not seeing it, this could be an excuse to give Combat / Seal Fate a try, which would be hillarious and awesome.
A couple good crit streaks now and then and I could keep SnD, Rupture and EA all running at the same time!
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Unless the numbers skew way to the higher talents and I'm just not seeing it, this could be an excuse to give Combat / Seal Fate a try, which would be hillarious and awesome.
A couple good crit streaks now and then and I could keep SnD, Rupture and EA all running at the same time!
I wonder if that makes up for the damage lost with 5/5 Prey on the Weak (+25% crit damage on white attacks), though. In a boss fight, that's going to be a pretty massive boost in DPS.
Unless the numbers skew way to the higher talents and I'm just not seeing it, this could be an excuse to give Combat / Seal Fate a try, which would be hillarious and awesome.
A couple good crit streaks now and then and I could keep SnD, Rupture and EA all running at the same time!
I wonder if that makes up for the damage lost with 5/5 Prey on the Weak (+25% crit damage on white attacks), though. In a boss fight, that's going to be a pretty massive boost in DPS.
This assumes both that Blizzard moves away from constant raid damage boss fights, and that rogues get heals. :P
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Unless the numbers skew way to the higher talents and I'm just not seeing it, this could be an excuse to give Combat / Seal Fate a try, which would be hillarious and awesome.
A couple good crit streaks now and then and I could keep SnD, Rupture and EA all running at the same time!
I'm concerned about Seal Fate in WotLK. After reading some info from Ming, he was informing us that his crit (which was around 35% at 70), was dropping down to like 15% or something ridiculous with the current leveling / conversion rate. I honestly don't remember the exact numbers he quoted, but i'm at work right now and can't refer to it directly.
I'm worried that Blizz is going to try and get us away from crit even more than they did with BC. In BC they made our entire class focus on Hit over crit, they may try and get us even further away from it in wotlk by not itemizing as much for crit, which would really hurt the usefullness of Seal Fate.
Only time will tell obviously, but the hit that crit ratings are taking from leveling are very significant.
I've seen a Wrath polearm with 72 critical strike rating. Hit has always been important, but if you wanted to have a 35% crit chance on your rogue, it would be easy to obtain. Hit wasn't nearly as available in Vanilla WoW, but I bet it would have been better than crit back then, too.
EDIT: As with hit, the amount of crit you will find on gear will scale as much as the amount needed for 1%. It has always been this way, it will continue to be this way.
EDIT: As with hit, the amount of crit you will find on gear will scale as much as the amount needed for 1%. It has always been this way, it will continue to be this way.
If that's the case, then the top tier combat talents better be fuckawesome because no way will they compete with a SF Combat build. The sheer amount of increased output you could squeeze out of a Combat/SF build would be downright ridiculous.
EDIT: As with hit, the amount of crit you will find on gear will scale as much as the amount needed for 1%. It has always been this way, it will continue to be this way.
If that's the case, then the top tier combat talents better be fuckawesome because no way will they compete with a SF Combat build. The sheer amount of increased output you could squeeze out of a Combat/SF build would be downright ridiculous.
I think +25% damage on white crits (60% of your overall damage) is pretty fuckawesome.
EDIT: As with hit, the amount of crit you will find on gear will scale as much as the amount needed for 1%. It has always been this way, it will continue to be this way.
If that's the case, then the top tier combat talents better be fuckawesome because no way will they compete with a SF Combat build. The sheer amount of increased output you could squeeze out of a Combat/SF build would be downright ridiculous.
I think +25% damage on white crits (60% of your overall damage) is pretty fuckawesome.
To be fair, white HITS account for 60% of your damage. White CRITS are probably significantly less, especially early on, when all our crit rates go back down from 30%+ to, like, 10% as a fresh level 80.
Of course, by this same standard, Seal Fate wouldn't be super useful either, but I'm just sayin'...
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Don't worry, we're arguably the most gear dependant class in the game, or at least are tied with Warriors for that title. We'll suck pretty damned hard fresh at 80, and cloth wearers will probably get like T8 level tailored gear again or some shit, and then 6 months later with S6 we'll start picking up reasonable weapons because we finally have a method of gearing up again that doesn't require fighting an RNG, and will go from unloved to overpowered again.
Such is the circle of life.
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It's kind of like with locks when they first got Death Coil to a lesser degree. It's a monstrously powerful ability (it hurts less now but back in the day . . .), but people tend to forget how much locks sucked before it.
Now any good rogue pvper knows that the rogue lives and often dies by cooldowns or lack thereof, which is significantly different from any class. Hence, smart rogues know that it's not a good idea to attack unless certain cooldowns are up unless you have a much more pressing matter that doesn't let you wait to open up. Some people can't get over the fact that rogues have no real counter class so much as being countered by situational stuff like cooldowns still ticking and being caught in stealth.
Now add what cheat death was sometimes like to the mix, and people will be louder. I disagree with the power many saw in cheat death. It never won me a fight I wouldn't have won by just blinding my target and bandaging, it just sometimes prevented me from flat out dying and giving me a moment to escape. I consider routing someone a win though even if I don't get honor points for a kill, most people seem to not feel the same.
By now however, rogues are everywhere and have geared up quite a bit. When I reactivated my account 2 months ago, I was bumping into tons of rogues in S3/S2 and raid gear and losing handily in my pvp blues and year of off time. I've since done well enough in arenas and kara raids to be a part of that group. The result is that a lot of people are having their faces smashed in by rogues and unlike being gibbed and dotted by mages and locks from across the map, it's a bit more memorable when you see a rogue up close stunning you.
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Early on, before resilience was adjusted, you had warlocks running around in tailored gear with a nice health return effect (it's not much, but as any pvp'er knows, ANYTHING that gives you health is worth looking at, especially when it's effectively free) that was essentially T5 or better while many others had D3 or worse.
However, rogues of course scale very well with their weapons, and the relatively easy availability of S1 and S2 weapons put them back in the fight to a better degree than they had been.
There's also the ever-present hatred of our ability to lockdown classes, particularly casters, who usually wear cloth. Resilience and heavy Stam pvp gear means that literally going from 100% to 0 while in stunlock is far less likely, but people seldom let go of hatred and prejudices that are deeply rooted.
I'd say the only class that gets nearly as much shit (but deservedly so) are Druids. Seriously, fuck druids. I don't really mind fighting any other class, but a well played druid can lock down 2 people on their own while the other member(s) of their team go to town. I hear in 5's this isn't nearly the case, but my only experiences are in 2's and 3's, so this is a small comfort.
And just because there is pvp gear available doesn't mean people are smart enough to use it. Many people insist on trying to get by with raid epics going for all out damage instead of survivability. The premed, cheapshot, expose armor, gouge, vanish, garrote, hemo, kidney shot/rupture sequence is especially brutal on them.
CC and healing in one package is extremely potent in the smaller brackets, less so in 5s. Likewise, rogues lose power in 5s as there are many more people around to snare/root you. My usual job in 5s is to either force a pali to waste a bubble on themselves instead of the team mate the 2 other dps are on (I've long been in significantly worse gear, though that's a decreasing gap) or to stay on a druid to prevent cyclones.
In my 3s team, I seem to be de facto leader and I can't count how often my instructions come down to "We CC this target, then dps this target until the druid comes out of stealth AND YOU KNOW THERE WILL BE ONE."
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Sub Hemo Rogues are basically overpowered, I play one and I can admit it. I can basically square off against almost any class and win, I can even take out well geared warriors in most situations. The only class I don't stand a snowballs chance in hell against is a Resto Druid, but neither does any other class so i'm not sure if it counts.
And then of course the nature of our class is stuns, and as you know, the most frustrating part of PvP for anyone is the loss of control of their character. So you combine the OP aspect of our current Sub PvP builds with the fact our class is literally based on stunning people to death, and you get a double dose of hate from everyone.
I like what they did with fear; for the most part, if you're getting the shit kicked out of you, you're probably going to break free pretty quickly. Yes, sometimes the RNG hates you and you get violated while running around at mach 2, but I mean in general, it's not that bad. They had to nerf fear like 17 fucking times, but it's about right, imo.
Stuns, however, you just sit there and take it. Roughly. Through the pants.
I've played a rogue main since WoW's release and even I recognize that in PVP, it's a terribly frustrating class to fight against, but that's just how we're designed.
Pick a target, pick the place to fight, and then violate them. Get caught out in the open and we may well be screwed, but having the ability to pick the time and place for most of said fights is truly invaluable.
This is why in PvP while playing any class (especially my Rogue), I will always target other Rogues first. I love to play mine, but god damn I hate playing against them. Nothing is worse than sitting there getting stunned from 100% to 30% because your 2 minute trinket is on cooldown.
I'd argue that fear is worse because it's spammable, and even with diminishing returns, it's the only form of CC that not only incapacitates the player but ALSO pushes them away from you, giving you more time to A) get away or
I mean, I get that being stunned sucks, but there are enough ways out of it and there's enough time in between when we can do it that it's not just "lock down and burn from 100 to 0%" anymore. Back in the early pre-TBC days you could make a case for it, but between all the stamina that the season gear gives and the talents that each class was given in TBC (plus the 2 minute cooldown PVP trinket), stunlock just isn't what it used to be.
Not just how we're designed, but also a factor of how the other classes are designed. Almost every other class wants to stay at range and has a way to try instantly enable that so it's not like you can normally not use stuns and win one on one. We have a diametrically opposed preferred range to most of the game population and I abhorred what felt like running after a headless chicken back in 60's pvp when we didn't have shiv and crippling poison didn't take.
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Where are you getting this? When did anyone say you get "locked down and burned from 100 to 0"? I think everyone here realizes that such a thing has all but been eradicated as of BC and resilience.
Stunlock may not be all that it used to be, but it is still extreeeeemely frustrating when you are on the recieving end, and considering this whole discussion was spurred off of someone asking why everyone hates Rogue's, it was a very appropriate statement.
Yes, all CC is frustrating, but combine massive CC with a Sub Hemo Rogue with a billion ways to escape death and who stealths around out of sight until he wants to strike, you have someone that is going to be loathed and hated by basically the entirety of the WoW population.
Also don't forget, there are a hajillion rogues out there, so that doesn't help our image either.
The Cheat Death thing makes the most sense, though, but as has been mentioned, that's been fixed for a while now.
That's why I don't pvp as destro, and why I use my trinket.
(Actually, sometimes I do pvp in bgs as destro, but in that case I'm retarded, and I specifically don't sacrifice my pet so I can seduce and run away.)
So, when WotLK comes out, do you guys think it'll remain that +hit and then AP are still the stats to focus on? (And Crit/Resilience/Stam for PvP) Obviously AGI is important too, but that's pretty much assumed.
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There is no telling what WLK talents and skills will bring but based on how raiding is now, I would say +hit will be even more important against level 83 bosses, especially since the +hit requirement will be higher than it is now at 80.
Uhhh, what? The amount of hit rating on gear will scale like everything else, the +hit requirement as a % will be the exact same. I also think they plan on tweaking the hit system.
edit: http://www.curse.com/articles/details/12360/
Yes, that's the point. The hit rating on gear will go up, look at 60 gear compared to 70 gear. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37767 example of lvl 76 helmet.
blue has said that druids will be able to share gear with rogues and not go over their hit rating cap. which means base gear will have enough (or close) hit rating to reach the yellow cap and if you want to reach the white cap as a rogue you will have to socket for hit.
rogues now value hit over most other stats and if this stays the same you will still have to socket for hit, and the rating needed will be about double then it is now at 70.
He didn't say all leather gear would only have a little hit. Also, Mgcw is not arguing that you'll need more hit. Of course you will. But it will be about as easy/difficult to get as it is now. Count on that. Hit Rating needed scales with level. Hit Rating on gear will scale as well. A top rogue piece now might have 32 HR (~2%), a top rogue piece in Wrath will likely have 66 HR (~2%).
Plus, given all that "enhanced armour" shit, I have strong doubts about there being one set between both classes. It's wasted itemization on a rogue, so unless there are literally no other options available, I suspect there'll still be "druid gear" and "rogue gear", it'll just be less of a waste on the other class.
there will still be rogue T7 and druid T7 and they will have specific stats to the class, just the off-set pieces will be sharable.
It doesn't say "Rogues and Druids will share all gear." There is, without a shadow of a doubt, going to be gear that's clearly aimed at one class or the other.
That said, they've said the same thing about fury warriors, ret paladins and deathknights, for example. Obviously the Tier stuff will be aimed solely at their class, but I suspect we'll see a lot of generic drops that are either very good for all viable classes, or a Sunmote system where you can tweak them as needed.
I mean, what's the point of touting how you're going to make gearing people easier if you still have 31+ specs worth of gear to itemize?
I think the population of the class active in pvp is a huge culprit. Cheat Death may have been fixed, but anyone that rolled a rogue when it was better (though again, I never got much out of it when it was better. I think it was probably more PvE geared rogues getting it and doing better than other classes in PvE gear that really affected perceptions of it) probably hasn't stopped playing the rogue since then.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
It seems like it is not implemented yet as all it does is turn you red and do nothing from what I saw.
I swear to god, if one of the Rogue top talents is essentially a petless Beastial Wrath...
On the bright side, it will make my transition to Warrior-main a lot easier. Right now i'm still 50/50, if the top tier combat talents are really really good, I'll probably keep my rogue as my main. I'm underwhelmed with the other trees completely since I don't do daggers.
Why not skip the 51 pt talent (I think it's amazing, FWIW), and go 21/50. +20% poison damage, and +10% chance to apply poisons. Or Cold Blood, though I think that would be a waste for raiding.
A couple good crit streaks now and then and I could keep SnD, Rupture and EA all running at the same time!
I wonder if that makes up for the damage lost with 5/5 Prey on the Weak (+25% crit damage on white attacks), though. In a boss fight, that's going to be a pretty massive boost in DPS.
This assumes both that Blizzard moves away from constant raid damage boss fights, and that rogues get heals. :P
I'm concerned about Seal Fate in WotLK. After reading some info from Ming, he was informing us that his crit (which was around 35% at 70), was dropping down to like 15% or something ridiculous with the current leveling / conversion rate. I honestly don't remember the exact numbers he quoted, but i'm at work right now and can't refer to it directly.
I'm worried that Blizz is going to try and get us away from crit even more than they did with BC. In BC they made our entire class focus on Hit over crit, they may try and get us even further away from it in wotlk by not itemizing as much for crit, which would really hurt the usefullness of Seal Fate.
Only time will tell obviously, but the hit that crit ratings are taking from leveling are very significant.
EDIT: As with hit, the amount of crit you will find on gear will scale as much as the amount needed for 1%. It has always been this way, it will continue to be this way.
If that's the case, then the top tier combat talents better be fuckawesome because no way will they compete with a SF Combat build. The sheer amount of increased output you could squeeze out of a Combat/SF build would be downright ridiculous.
I think +25% damage on white crits (60% of your overall damage) is pretty fuckawesome.
To be fair, white HITS account for 60% of your damage. White CRITS are probably significantly less, especially early on, when all our crit rates go back down from 30%+ to, like, 10% as a fresh level 80.
Of course, by this same standard, Seal Fate wouldn't be super useful either, but I'm just sayin'...
Such is the circle of life.