Wait. Rogues have a different GCD than every other class? When did this happen? What did I miss? What's going on? I mean, I never timed it myself, I just assumed it was the same as everyone else's.
It doesn't. You stack it three times, then it has a 30s duration. You only have to refresh it once during that 30s to keep the 3 stacks up. Well... Once every 30s.
Re: GCD - Man, I did not know that. I'm doing it wrong.
What surprises me is that you hadn't heard about it before. It was a hot topic back when it was discovered that spell haste decreased the caster GCD but did nothing for melee, but their cap is 1.25 (I believe). "Wah wah wah, we still can't get down to 1 second like rogues!" was a common qq thread/statement at the time of that patch.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Oh, I've considered it common knowledge for years now, but it was noted repeatedly in a number of threads (here even) about how casters couldn't get down to the 'rogue gcd' even with absurd amounts of haste, so I figured it'd be pretty widely known. At least, among other rogues. Especially other rogues who should know better. *looks at MGHM*
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
With seal fate you should really only need two mutilates per 5 point envenom.
I was quite surprised when I found out recently that a lot of rogues don't think seal fate is worth it. I can only assume it's because you get a lot of 'wasted' CPs, if you get two mutilate crits in a row for example.
Meanwhile they'll splurge over spending 3 spoints to have a 60% chance to get 1 free CP after a finisher.
Rami on
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Oh, I've considered it common knowledge for years now, but it was noted repeatedly in a number of threads (here even) about how casters couldn't get down to the 'rogue gcd' even with absurd amounts of haste, so I figured it'd be pretty widely known. At least, among other rogues. Especially other rogues who should know better. *looks at MGHM*
Heh, well... uh... maybe I knew, but forgot? Or... I don't know. I'm sorry.
I'd just like to clarify that every point past the first in SF gives diminishing returns, 3 points isn't some magic number. I used 3 points in SF as an example since Ruthlessness is a 3 point talent. As an example, at a 40% crit chance, 1 point in SF gives you a 28.3% chance for a 5pt finisher. The next point adds about 22%, then 16.4%, 12%, and 8.4%, for a total of about 87% chance with 5 points invested.
However, Aldriana is correct in that the synergy between ruthlessness and SF is important, since they are not exclusive talents (you can take both and don't have to choose one or the other). I'm not sure how to rate the value of a 4 point finisher after 1 mutilate, but those two talents definitely have synergy. Looking again at a 40% chance to crit (seems reasonable in a raid setting), 3 points ruthlessness and increasing points in SF:
1 mut 4pt finisher chance:
1 SF = 9.2%
2 SF = 17.7%
3 SF = 25.3%
4 SF = 32.3%
5 SF = 38.4%
2 mut 5pt finisher chance:
1 SF = 62.1%
2 SF = 62.4%
3 SF = 61.3%
4 SF = 59.2%
5 SF = 56.4%
2 mut 4pt finisher chance:
1 SF = 28.7%
2 SF = 19.9%
3 SF = 13.3%
4 SF = 8.6%
5 SF = 5.2%
The last point in SF is hardly worth it I think. 2 to 3 points in SF is probably optimal, with additional points giving severe diminishing returns. At the end the problem with SF is the first point is pretty good, additional points just give less bang for your buck.
'Wasted' CPs from Seal Fate are completely irrelevant - you're not paying energy to get Seal Fate procs, any CPs that you do or don't use are completely free. The only thing that matters is which talent increases your DPS more. Three points in Ruthlessness gives you a 60% chance to end up with five CPs after finisher-Mutilate-Mutilate. Three points in Seal Fate will give you the same chance for five CPs if you have at least 19.1% base crit. As long as you don't need the Ruthlessness points to move down the tree, Seal Fate is better.
No, what was normalized was the attack speed that your AP is multiplied by.
(Attack Power / 14) * Normalized Weapon Speed + Weapon Damage + (Modifiers for things like Sinister Strike) = Damage
See, before your weapon speed wasn't normalized. This meant that a really slow weapon make your AP count for more, by a good chunk. (ex - a 1.8 speed weapon would get 30% more out of your AP then a 1.4 speed one) Now, the attack speed used in the calculation only depends on the weapon type, not it's actual speed. 1.7 for daggers, 2.4 for everything else.
The thing is, your weapon damage still counts. So even if the DPS on your weapon is higher, if it's faster, then the weapon damage could actually be LOWER, which would make your SS hit not quite as hard.
That's the thing, though. The new sword is faster, but it also just plain does more damage. The old sword was 29-55 damage, 2.7 speed. The new one is 32-61 damage, 2.1 speed. And somehow the character screen was showing more damage per hit with the old sword.
No, what was normalized was the attack speed that your AP is multiplied by.
(Attack Power / 14) * Normalized Weapon Speed + Weapon Damage + (Modifiers for things like Sinister Strike) = Damage
See, before your weapon speed wasn't normalized. This meant that a really slow weapon make your AP count for more, by a good chunk. (ex - a 1.8 speed weapon would get 30% more out of your AP then a 1.4 speed one) Now, the attack speed used in the calculation only depends on the weapon type, not it's actual speed. 1.7 for daggers, 2.4 for everything else.
The thing is, your weapon damage still counts. So even if the DPS on your weapon is higher, if it's faster, then the weapon damage could actually be LOWER, which would make your SS hit not quite as hard.
That's the thing, though. The new sword is faster, but it also just plain does more damage. The old sword was 29-55 damage, 2.7 speed. The new one is 32-61 damage, 2.1 speed. And somehow the character screen was showing more damage per hit with the old sword.
Attack power/speed is only normalized on your specials. For auto-swings, you still get attack power doing more for slower weapons. You just get more hits in with the faster stuff.
No, what was normalized was the attack speed that your AP is multiplied by.
(Attack Power / 14) * Normalized Weapon Speed + Weapon Damage + (Modifiers for things like Sinister Strike) = Damage
See, before your weapon speed wasn't normalized. This meant that a really slow weapon make your AP count for more, by a good chunk. (ex - a 1.8 speed weapon would get 30% more out of your AP then a 1.4 speed one) Now, the attack speed used in the calculation only depends on the weapon type, not it's actual speed. 1.7 for daggers, 2.4 for everything else.
The thing is, your weapon damage still counts. So even if the DPS on your weapon is higher, if it's faster, then the weapon damage could actually be LOWER, which would make your SS hit not quite as hard.
That's the thing, though. The new sword is faster, but it also just plain does more damage. The old sword was 29-55 damage, 2.7 speed. The new one is 32-61 damage, 2.1 speed. And somehow the character screen was showing more damage per hit with the old sword.
Attack power/speed is only normalized on your specials. For auto-swings, you still get attack power doing more for slower weapons. You just get more hits in with the faster stuff.
Basically, just go with the new sword.
Well yeah, it wasn't even a question of which sword to use. It just bugged me, that's all. And thanks for the explanations guys
* Hunger for Blood now only attempt to remove a Bleed effect. (Old - any harmful physical effect)
* Deadly Brew now only has a chance to apply Crippling poison
* Improved Poisons now increases the chance to apply Instant and Deadly poison to your target by 2/4/6/8/10% (Down from 3/6/9/12/15%)
Combat
* Savage Combat now also increases your total attack power by 2/4%.
* Vitality has been changed now increases your Energy renegeration rate by 3/6/10%.
* Aggression has been moved from Tier 6 to Tier 5 and changed to 5 points. Now Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike, Backstab, and Eviscerate abilities by 2/4/6/8/10%.
* Endurance now increases your total stamina by 2/4% additionally from the Sprint / Evasion cooldown reduction
Subtlety
* Filthy Tricks now the cooldown of your Tricks of the Trade and Distract abilities by 5/10 secs and Preparation by 2.5/5 min.
So now were back to being sub par again. I told you they'd nerf assassination into the ground because they fucked up combat.
Seriously, DB is now essentially pointless. Cut to the Chase is far less useful because the proc rate of deadly poison is lower and you'll be forced to DW deadly to make your envenom worth a damn so instant poison is redundant.
And with one fell swoop mutilate is back to being distinctly meh in PVE.
Since the RS nerf I can no longer put together a decent combat backstab build either, so now it's either fists or re-roll DK.
Rami on
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So now were back to being sub par again. I told you they'd nerf assassination into the ground because they fucked up combat.
Seriously, DB is now essentially pointless. Cut to the Chase is far less useful because the proc rate of deadly poison is lower and you'll be forced to DW deadly to make your envenom worth a damn so instant poison is redundant.
And with one fell swoop mutilate is back to being distinctly meh in PVE.
Since the RS nerf I can no longer put together a decent combat backstab build either, so now it's either fists or re-roll DK.
I think Mutilate will still be okay, if weaker than it was. Look, I was doing more damage on my super gimp rogue than I was as any spec on my warrior. It was way, way over the top. Some of these changes were a bit much, but it's still a powerful tree. And it still beats the hell out of the current combat.
It doesn't really. Assassination back to beig okay at PVE/PVP but not great at either. If you want to raid combat is better, if you want to PVP sub is better.
Not many people are going to go 51 points into assassination anymore.
Combat has +10% energy regen, +15 energy chance on offhand attacks, 250% critical damage, 2% increased damage to poison targets, +4% AP, +10% SS/evis damage, +30% rupture damage, relentless strikes and ruthlessness.
And lets not forget the glyphs, sinister strike glyph gives it seal fate, +1 cp on SS crits. Which is huge when combat has a +10% crit, as well as raid buffs (5% from druid/warrior, 3% from judgement at least). Adrenaline rush CD can be reduced by 1 minute, blade flurry costing 0 energy etc.
Combat is definitley the better PVE spec now, and Sub is better for PVP.
If Assassination was overpowered there were other ways of fixing it than nerfing it really hard and turning key talents in novelties that are 7 tiers high in the tree. Lower poison ap scale, or lower poison base damage so it's more about AP, they're already lowered proc chance of poisons 3 or 4 times now.
Meanwhile, ret paladins, mages etc are still stunningly overpowered and Ret at least is going to see more PVE buffs as well.
Rami on
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For 2 points that high up in the tree, it is actually. There's no room for filler if you're putting 51 points into assassination, and that's definitely filler since it increases your dps by 0.
Nobody is going to spec 51 into assassination for pvp, so it isn't going to get picked up by them either. Assassination is back to being an awesome levelling spec and okay all-rounder, but when you want to get serious about PVE or PVP there are two better trees for it.
If blizzard had just approached their poison dps nerf in a different way, for the first time in history we would actually have two completely different but equally viable PVE specs.
Rami on
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Yeah, Crippling Poison, Mind-numbing poison and wound poison all at once, what a shitty talent! :roll:
I'm usually the first to jump on the QQ train when it comes to Rogues... but come on guys, that slight nerf to deadly brew did not all of the sudden lower our potential 15,000,000,000 fold.
Mutilate still fucking rox, and now Combat may be a viable option too!
Yeah, Crippling Poison, Mind-numbing poison and wound poison all at once, what a shitty talent! :roll:
I'm usually the first to jump on the QQ train when it comes to Rogues... but come on guys, that slight nerf to deadly brew did not all of the sudden lower our potential 15,000,000,000 fold.
Mutilate still fucking rox, and now Combat may be a viable option too!
Yay!
And removing the positional requirement for Mutilate increased potential 15,000,000,000 fold, so it evens out anyway.
Yeah, Crippling Poison, Mind-numbing poison and wound poison all at once, what a shitty talent! :roll:
I'm usually the first to jump on the QQ train when it comes to Rogues... but come on guys, that slight nerf to deadly brew did not all of the sudden lower our potential 15,000,000,000 fold.
Mutilate still fucking rox, and now Combat may be a viable option too!
Yay!
1) Deadly Brew is now a waste of points, except MAYBE for PvP. And in that case, it should only be 1 point.
The problem of course, is that:
2) With the nerf to Hunger For Blood, Assassination is no longer any good for PvP. Hunger For Blood's ability to remove physical movement impairing effects was the only thing giving it the mobility necessary to compete with Subtlety in PvP.
I think they should just swap the position of killing spree and hunger for blood. Also make killing spree remove all movement impairing effects when activated.
Rami on
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How the fuck is anyone supposed to actually utilize shadow dance?
Considering 99.9% of rogues out there bind unique keys to their characters between their stealth and non-stealth bars, does blizzard just expect us to fit 5 more on our non-stealth bars and existing keybindings? what. the. fuck.
How the fuck is anyone supposed to actually utilize shadow dance?
Considering 99.9% of rogues out there bind unique keys to their characters between their stealth and non-stealth bars, does blizzard just expect us to fit 5 more on our non-stealth bars and existing keybindings? what. the. fuck.
Shitty implimentation. Shitty shitty shitty.
This is truth. The UI issues render the talent unworkable, as cool as it sounds at first.
dylman on
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I think two into opportunity will provide more benefit than two into Imp SnD. CPs aren't going to be nearly as slow as in combat.
My view on it is that impSnD provides more chances for Focused Attacks which is needed for mutilates (crazy) 60 energy cost. I can see Opportunity getting picked up with 3/5 precision though.
Posts
Took the words right out of my mouth.
If we're up to 1.5, our haste had damned well better be altered to lower that, like casters.
B.net: Kusanku
It doesn't. You stack it three times, then it has a 30s duration. You only have to refresh it once during that 30s to keep the 3 stacks up. Well... Once every 30s.
Re: GCD - Man, I did not know that. I'm doing it wrong.
At least, for forum devourers.
I was quite surprised when I found out recently that a lot of rogues don't think seal fate is worth it. I can only assume it's because you get a lot of 'wasted' CPs, if you get two mutilate crits in a row for example.
Meanwhile they'll splurge over spending 3 spoints to have a 60% chance to get 1 free CP after a finisher.
Heh, well... uh... maybe I knew, but forgot? Or... I don't know. I'm sorry.
Actually, I didn't know cat form was only 1 second too, but I'm not surprised by that, given how often cat form mechanics match up.
I think seal fate came out at only increasing your DPS by about 30 per point, which was lower than pretty much everything else.
I think it's awesome though.
Counterpoint.
B.net: Kusanku
That's the thing, though. The new sword is faster, but it also just plain does more damage. The old sword was 29-55 damage, 2.7 speed. The new one is 32-61 damage, 2.1 speed. And somehow the character screen was showing more damage per hit with the old sword.
Attack power/speed is only normalized on your specials. For auto-swings, you still get attack power doing more for slower weapons. You just get more hits in with the faster stuff.
Basically, just go with the new sword.
Steam Profile
3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Well yeah, it wasn't even a question of which sword to use. It just bugged me, that's all. And thanks for the explanations guys
Hey, don't shoot the messenger.
Skills
Combat
* Gouge awards one combo point once again.
Subtlety
* Tricks of the Trade now costs 15 energy.
Talents
Assassination
* Hunger for Blood now only attempt to remove a Bleed effect. (Old - any harmful physical effect)
* Deadly Brew now only has a chance to apply Crippling poison
* Improved Poisons now increases the chance to apply Instant and Deadly poison to your target by 2/4/6/8/10% (Down from 3/6/9/12/15%)
Combat
* Savage Combat now also increases your total attack power by 2/4%.
* Vitality has been changed now increases your Energy renegeration rate by 3/6/10%.
* Aggression has been moved from Tier 6 to Tier 5 and changed to 5 points. Now Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike, Backstab, and Eviscerate abilities by 2/4/6/8/10%.
* Endurance now increases your total stamina by 2/4% additionally from the Sprint / Evasion cooldown reduction
Subtlety
* Filthy Tricks now the cooldown of your Tricks of the Trade and Distract abilities by 5/10 secs and Preparation by 2.5/5 min.
So now were back to being sub par again. I told you they'd nerf assassination into the ground because they fucked up combat.
Seriously, DB is now essentially pointless. Cut to the Chase is far less useful because the proc rate of deadly poison is lower and you'll be forced to DW deadly to make your envenom worth a damn so instant poison is redundant.
And with one fell swoop mutilate is back to being distinctly meh in PVE.
Since the RS nerf I can no longer put together a decent combat backstab build either, so now it's either fists or re-roll DK.
I think Mutilate will still be okay, if weaker than it was. Look, I was doing more damage on my super gimp rogue than I was as any spec on my warrior. It was way, way over the top. Some of these changes were a bit much, but it's still a powerful tree. And it still beats the hell out of the current combat.
Not many people are going to go 51 points into assassination anymore.
Combat has +10% energy regen, +15 energy chance on offhand attacks, 250% critical damage, 2% increased damage to poison targets, +4% AP, +10% SS/evis damage, +30% rupture damage, relentless strikes and ruthlessness.
And lets not forget the glyphs, sinister strike glyph gives it seal fate, +1 cp on SS crits. Which is huge when combat has a +10% crit, as well as raid buffs (5% from druid/warrior, 3% from judgement at least). Adrenaline rush CD can be reduced by 1 minute, blade flurry costing 0 energy etc.
Combat is definitley the better PVE spec now, and Sub is better for PVP.
If Assassination was overpowered there were other ways of fixing it than nerfing it really hard and turning key talents in novelties that are 7 tiers high in the tree. Lower poison ap scale, or lower poison base damage so it's more about AP, they're already lowered proc chance of poisons 3 or 4 times now.
Meanwhile, ret paladins, mages etc are still stunningly overpowered and Ret at least is going to see more PVE buffs as well.
Hunger For Bloods "Remove X Effect" part is now essentially useless.
Deadly Brew is now a waste of points.
And combat got a big old buff. Their energy regen is going to be INSANE.
Nobody is going to spec 51 into assassination for pvp, so it isn't going to get picked up by them either. Assassination is back to being an awesome levelling spec and okay all-rounder, but when you want to get serious about PVE or PVP there are two better trees for it.
If blizzard had just approached their poison dps nerf in a different way, for the first time in history we would actually have two completely different but equally viable PVE specs.
I'm usually the first to jump on the QQ train when it comes to Rogues... but come on guys, that slight nerf to deadly brew did not all of the sudden lower our potential 15,000,000,000 fold.
Mutilate still fucking rox, and now Combat may be a viable option too!
Yay!
1) Deadly Brew is now a waste of points, except MAYBE for PvP. And in that case, it should only be 1 point.
The problem of course, is that:
2) With the nerf to Hunger For Blood, Assassination is no longer any good for PvP. Hunger For Blood's ability to remove physical movement impairing effects was the only thing giving it the mobility necessary to compete with Subtlety in PvP.
Considering 99.9% of rogues out there bind unique keys to their characters between their stealth and non-stealth bars, does blizzard just expect us to fit 5 more on our non-stealth bars and existing keybindings? what. the. fuck.
Shitty implimentation. Shitty shitty shitty.
This is truth. The UI issues render the talent unworkable, as cool as it sounds at first.
Thoughts?
Its a decent combat build. Keep in mind I haven't played the beta, but to me it looks like mutilate will be topping those dps meters.
I am thinking something like this for pve.
I think two into opportunity will provide more benefit than two into Imp SnD. CPs aren't going to be nearly as slow as in combat.