The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Just caught Lou Dobbs tonight. Turns out those Aqua Dots toys that have been flying off of shelves have small, candy-like pieces that metabolize into the equivilent of GHB, the date rape drug, when swallowed.
The Chinese manufacturer decided to cut corners and substituted the safe glue for the stuff sexual predators use to spike people's drinks in bars. Here's a transcript.
Australian authorities are the ones that twigged to it eventually, after a cases of kids going into woozy, erratic resperatory states and even some that have even gone into comas or experienced seizures.
There's been a recall, and Toys-R-Us manned up... you can bring your poisonous toy to them to get a refund -even if you didn't buy it there-.
China has been cutting way too many fucking corners lately. They are asking for it. All the fucking cheap ass prices we pay for labor over there is starting to show. God damn.
Casket on
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
China has been cutting way too many fucking corners lately. They are asking for it. All the fucking cheap ass prices we pay for labor over there is starting to show. God damn.
Yes, it's not like high demand for pennies-a-day labor has anything to do with it.
China has been cutting way too many fucking corners lately. They are asking for it. All the fucking cheap ass prices we pay for labor over there is starting to show. God damn.
Well, I think these are, for the most parts, chines manufactures, so we are paying for cheap ass products, and they are the ones paying for cheap ass labor.
The companies involved will be riding their suppliers, which is good because the Chinese government is going to have to decide to take a stand on the matter somewhere. Exactly where doesn't really matter, but hopefully they'll do something sensible like balance the welfare of their citizens against the need for continued economic development.
The companies involved will be riding their suppliers, which is good because the Chinese government is going to have to decide to take a stand on the matter somewhere. Exactly where doesn't really matter, but hopefully they'll do something sensible like balance the welfare of their citizens against the need for continued economic development.
saying this in reference to the country which has been executing folks in charge of QA(the head of their rough equivalent of the FDA for instance)?
Yeah, I'm not seeing the Chinese government making real changes. They'll address this problem, specifically, but on a whole they'll be, "So do you want cheap junk or not?"
They were Most Favored Nation trading partner in the 80's, when we were still afraid of Communists. They're planted so deep in U.S. interests, it would take actual armed conflict for us to break off trade with them... and I'm not sure the corporate lobbyists would stand for that.
They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.
They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.
Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.
They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.
Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.
The point Loren was making is that its not China's fault that the Canadian company who commissioned the toy's production were too fucking cheap to fund half-decent safety standards. They got what they paid for.
Yeah, its not like this is going to be any different from the last time a bunch of you paranoids decided to get your china-hate on. Y'all might want to look into the history of your own countries's's's manufacturing before judging, because pretty much every country who's been through a rapid phase of industrial development that outstripped the government's ability to legislate has produced some horribly dodgy crap under awful working conditions.
They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.
Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.
The point Loren was making is that its not China's fault that the Canadian company who commissioned the toy's production were too fucking cheap to fund half-decent safety standards. They got what they paid for.
I totally agree with this. The amount of BS that piled upon China when its the NA companies not paying anything good is really at fault here. My Japanese Anime Figures are produced in China. Guess what? None of them are poisoness because the Japanese companies take precaution, at least in the figures I have.
Frankly this mostly sounds like scare mongering and anti-China retoric.
Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.
The Cat made the follow-up I would have made, but even this is simply not necessarily true. China is not inherently inferior in standards, it's simply more beholden to the desires of the company paying for the goods. You do get what you pay for, and if the company pays for incredibly high-quality product, China will make incredibly high-quality product, easily competitive with any socialist democracy.
Y'all might want to look into the history of your own countries' manufacturing before judging, because pretty much every country who's been through a rapid phase of industrial development that outstripped the government's ability to legislate has produced some horribly dodgy crap under awful working conditions.
I would say that's a microcosm of something that goes on every day. The laws and culture are almost always one step behind actual capabilities.
Loren Michael on
0
Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
edited November 2007
Shouldn't the PRC, as a titularly communist state, have provided better for the treatment of it's working class when undergoing rapid industrialization than capitalist nations did when undergoing the same?
From what I've seen they haven't at all, or have done even worse, which annoys me on the "retentive, call yourself what you are" level.
Shouldn't the PRC, as a titularly communist state, have provided better for the treatment of it's working class when undergoing rapid industrialization than capitalist nations did when undergoing the same?
The PRC is not communist, or leftist. In many ways, it's not even particularly socialist.
Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.
The Cat made the follow-up I would have made, but even this is simply not necessarily true. China is not inherently inferior in standards, it's simply more beholden to the desires of the company paying for the goods. You do get what you pay for, and if the company pays for incredibly high-quality product, China will make incredibly high-quality product, easily competitive with any socialist democracy.
There was an interesting point in an Economist a while back on this issue, when the toxic dolls were first discovered. Because post-war Japan was keen to make a name for itself as a manufacturer, quality was really important to it. When a Japanese manufacturer accepted a contract from a western company to manufacture a good, it would make that good and that good alone, and concentrate on a) learning how to design and manufacture goods to high quality, and b) build up a name for itself.
Chinese manufacturers, on the other hand, as part of a global economy, can make more money accepting contracts from competing western companies, and churning out pretty much identical toys, T-shirts, etc. They make more money by being unassuming, undistinguished and unaffiliated "generic Chinese manufacturer A" than they could as an identifiable brand.
Y'all might want to look into the history of your own countries' manufacturing before judging, because pretty much every country who's been through a rapid phase of industrial development that outstripped the government's ability to legislate has produced some horribly dodgy crap under awful working conditions.
I would say that's a microcosm of something that goes on every day. The laws and culture are almost always one step behind actual capabilities.
Yeah, its still around. Most developed countries still have really problematic sectors of industry, like piecework clothing manufacturing. Backyard-sweatshops, whey-hey.
They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.
Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.
The point Loren was making is that its not China's fault that the Canadian company who commissioned the toy's production were too fucking cheap to fund half-decent safety standards. They got what they paid for.
I totally agree with this. The amount of BS that piled upon China when its the NA companies not paying anything good is really at fault here. My Japanese Anime Figures are produced in China. Guess what? None of them are poisoness because the Japanese companies take precaution, at least in the figures I have.
Frankly this mostly sounds like scare mongering and anti-China retoric.
How do you know that?
Have you tried licking them to see if they contain lead?
Not that it would work, the only way to find out is to test them yourself(with a labratory test of the materials).
Kipling217 on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Y'all might want to look into the history of your own countries' manufacturing before judging, because pretty much every country who's been through a rapid phase of industrial development that outstripped the government's ability to legislate has produced some horribly dodgy crap under awful working conditions.
I would say that's a microcosm of something that goes on every day. The laws and culture are almost always one step behind actual capabilities.
Yeah, its still around. Most developed countries still have really problematic sectors of industry, like piecework clothing manufacturing. Backyard-sweatshops, whey-hey.
Labor and the like too of course (and it's probably the most socially significant), but I had a wider view in mind that includes essentially every new advancement and technology.
Er, I don't hate China, nor do I think that the western companies are blameless. Did I say that? No, I said that free market capitalism caused this problem.
China, for their part, let it happen while the western companies pressured them.
Ethically, all manufacturers should only use safe materials and pay its workers a reasonable wage, and that would be reflected in the price of the goods and services. Just because you weren't given a lot of money does not mean that you should provide dangerous product, at least not without full disclosure to the customer... customers have a right to know what they 're getting.
Lowballing the competition on the bid for making stuff influences corner cutting. It happens everywhere, yes, but Chinese firms are really good at it, and the government knows it happens, but acts outraged when caught.
For the record, China has a terribly interesting culture and is filled with beautiful people. I just wish they would use their position as a world top manufacturer to enforce some standards.
They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.
Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.
The point Loren was making is that its not China's fault that the Canadian company who commissioned the toy's production were too fucking cheap to fund half-decent safety standards. They got what they paid for.
I totally agree with this. The amount of BS that piled upon China when its the NA companies not paying anything good is really at fault here. My Japanese Anime Figures are produced in China. Guess what? None of them are poisoness because the Japanese companies take precaution, at least in the figures I have.
Frankly this mostly sounds like scare mongering and anti-China retoric.
How do you know that?
Have you tried licking them to see if they contain lead?
Not that it would work, the only way to find out is to test them yourself(with a labratory test of the materials).
Handling them and then eating food would still contain enough lead to make you sick. Having me touch them, sleep in the same room as them and at least paint/remove paint to make it look better has given me at least some idea. At least thats what I think.
Handling them and then eating food would still contain enough lead to make you sick. Having me touch them, sleep in the same room as them and at least paint/remove paint to make it look better has given me at least some idea. At least thats what I think.
Not really, unless the paint is flaking off into your food. Which would be a totally separate quality-control issue. You would actually have to stick them in your mouth and suck on them regularly to see any significant effects.
Handling them and then eating food would still contain enough lead to make you sick. Having me touch them, sleep in the same room as them and at least paint/remove paint to make it look better has given me at least some idea. At least thats what I think.
Not really, unless the paint is flaking off into your food. Which would be a totally separate quality-control issue. You would actually have to stick them in your mouth and suck on them regularly to see any significant effects.
I like how people are pointing out that any outrage directed at the chinese manufactures of this crap is just hatemongering. Just do me a favor and ask yourself something, if a factory in your nation of origin were to manufacture easily swallowed children's toys with GHB in them, what would happen? In the US that factory get's shut down, end of story, the owners would be facing criminal charges, the reason people don't like china is because they pull this kind of shit, not because we're racists or nationalists or whatever, it's because they don't put nearly the emphasis on safty that we do, while taking advantage of our free market system to drain cash out of our economy. I don't completely take the blame off of the company that commisioned the toys, the deserve some harsh penalties for not running their own safety tests before putting this stuff on the market, but I also demand that the manufacturers be held to the same standards that they would be here, otherwise we shouldn't be willing to trade with china.
Posts
My apologies.
More at 11.
Well, I think these are, for the most parts, chines manufactures, so we are paying for cheap ass products, and they are the ones paying for cheap ass labor.
but... yeah. pretty much.
You think we should protest somehow?
Free market capitalism strikes again.
saying this in reference to the country which has been executing folks in charge of QA(the head of their rough equivalent of the FDA for instance)?
great leap forward in crappy toy production?
They were Most Favored Nation trading partner in the 80's, when we were still afraid of Communists. They're planted so deep in U.S. interests, it would take actual armed conflict for us to break off trade with them... and I'm not sure the corporate lobbyists would stand for that.
They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.
Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.
The point Loren was making is that its not China's fault that the Canadian company who commissioned the toy's production were too fucking cheap to fund half-decent safety standards. They got what they paid for.
I totally agree with this. The amount of BS that piled upon China when its the NA companies not paying anything good is really at fault here. My Japanese Anime Figures are produced in China. Guess what? None of them are poisoness because the Japanese companies take precaution, at least in the figures I have.
Frankly this mostly sounds like scare mongering and anti-China retoric.
The Cat made the follow-up I would have made, but even this is simply not necessarily true. China is not inherently inferior in standards, it's simply more beholden to the desires of the company paying for the goods. You do get what you pay for, and if the company pays for incredibly high-quality product, China will make incredibly high-quality product, easily competitive with any socialist democracy.
I would say that's a microcosm of something that goes on every day. The laws and culture are almost always one step behind actual capabilities.
From what I've seen they haven't at all, or have done even worse, which annoys me on the "retentive, call yourself what you are" level.
The PRC is not communist, or leftist. In many ways, it's not even particularly socialist.
It's a rightist authoritarian state.
There was an interesting point in an Economist a while back on this issue, when the toxic dolls were first discovered. Because post-war Japan was keen to make a name for itself as a manufacturer, quality was really important to it. When a Japanese manufacturer accepted a contract from a western company to manufacture a good, it would make that good and that good alone, and concentrate on a) learning how to design and manufacture goods to high quality, and b) build up a name for itself.
Chinese manufacturers, on the other hand, as part of a global economy, can make more money accepting contracts from competing western companies, and churning out pretty much identical toys, T-shirts, etc. They make more money by being unassuming, undistinguished and unaffiliated "generic Chinese manufacturer A" than they could as an identifiable brand.
Yeah, its still around. Most developed countries still have really problematic sectors of industry, like piecework clothing manufacturing. Backyard-sweatshops, whey-hey.
How do you know that?
Have you tried licking them to see if they contain lead?
Not that it would work, the only way to find out is to test them yourself(with a labratory test of the materials).
Labor and the like too of course (and it's probably the most socially significant), but I had a wider view in mind that includes essentially every new advancement and technology.
China, for their part, let it happen while the western companies pressured them.
Ethically, all manufacturers should only use safe materials and pay its workers a reasonable wage, and that would be reflected in the price of the goods and services. Just because you weren't given a lot of money does not mean that you should provide dangerous product, at least not without full disclosure to the customer... customers have a right to know what they 're getting.
Lowballing the competition on the bid for making stuff influences corner cutting. It happens everywhere, yes, but Chinese firms are really good at it, and the government knows it happens, but acts outraged when caught.
For the record, China has a terribly interesting culture and is filled with beautiful people. I just wish they would use their position as a world top manufacturer to enforce some standards.
Presumably the same way infants found out their was lead in their rubber-duckies...
Handling them and then eating food would still contain enough lead to make you sick. Having me touch them, sleep in the same room as them and at least paint/remove paint to make it look better has given me at least some idea. At least thats what I think.
Not really, unless the paint is flaking off into your food. Which would be a totally separate quality-control issue. You would actually have to stick them in your mouth and suck on them regularly to see any significant effects.
Oh I see.
People with lead poisoning are not funny.
Even less so than people with a wicked GHB rush.
Tell that to the small children who are prone to sucking on their toys, fingers, fists (that one is always funny), bottle... you get the idea.