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What features should *every* video game have?

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    GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Houk wrote: »
    If it's got cutscenes, every scene should be pausable and skippable.

    Repeatable would be nice, too.

    GoodOmens on
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    Rufus_ShinraRufus_Shinra Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Customizable Controls.

    I don't see why I should have to learn X as reload for halo, but its Y for other games. Let me keep it standard so I don't spend the first half hour playing a game trying to do something else. It's completely arbitrary with buttons so why not let me have the option?

    Rufus_Shinra on
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    Raybies666Raybies666 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    GoodOmens wrote: »
    Houk wrote: »
    If it's got cutscenes, every scene should be pausable and skippable.

    Repeatable would be nice, too.


    Someone mentioned Banjo Kazooie (sp?) in relation to this, I saw it in Conker 64, was pretty good.
    Just for pausing scenes though, the wii home button has saved my bladder a few times.

    Raybies666 on
    Beat me on Wii U: Raybies
    Beat me on 360: Raybies666

    I remember when I had time to be good at games.
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    CowbombCowbomb Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Lork wrote: »
    Pjstelford wrote: »
    Magus` wrote: »
    The Zelda games are long over-do for a boss rush mode.
    Majora's Mask and The Wind Waker would like to have a word with you.

    Wind Waker?

    I didn't know you could re-fight the bosses again, unless you just meen
    Where you have to fight a few in Ganon's castle.

    Cowbomb on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    LewieP on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not significant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    You know, I find it funny when most KBAM fanbois that say the controller is dumbing down FPSes also complain that console FPSes don't have the crutch of quicksave/quickload.

    Saving and loading on the fly have to be considered in part of the game balance along with everything else. The only exception is portable games due to the fact that the device can run low on battery at any time and/or the user will need to put it away.

    For example, I got so used to just backing out of the OoT menu by hitting B to save that it was annoying as hell to play the GC disc versions due to the 10-15 seconds it took to save.


    And if people want all this stuff, as a developer I request the features from the console makers:

    * don't force us to make a game in HD. This should be a choice of the developer. Just have a scaling chip that scales to the appropos HD res for the TV.

    * on the other hand make sure you don't cock up widescreen support, because that's actually a lot more useful and worth our time than HD support

    * stop fucking changing the god damn console architecture every fucking console generation. Nintendo has the right idea. Only change it if you REALLY need to, not just to push your latest idea. I'm looking at you, shitty implementation of SPUs called Cell. At least we can address the entire RAM from any of the 360's procs.

    * Microsoft needs to grow some balls and tell EA that they'll handle their game's online from now on. If other developers can't run their own servers, EA shouldn't be able to either. And even as a gamer, it's annoying that a game I paid for and a service I am paying for doesn't work because EA was done with it/is shitty due to horrible EA servers.

    * Stop cramming a bajillion game releases into the holidays so that smaller dev studios actually have a chance to sell

    also
    * Carmack needs to give me idtech5 now

    FyreWulff on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not significant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    What I said was wrong was that "All games should have save anywhere"

    It would break the gameplay of some games, therefore it is wrong to say that all games should have it. I do think that alot of games would benefit from it though.

    LewieP on
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    DeepQantasDeepQantas Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Every multiplayer game needs REAL map and kickvote menus that are designed by the actual devs instead of hackers.

    Cos when hackers do it it's ugly, only available on every tenth server and no one knows how to use it. And yet everyone needs them because map rotations always have sucky maps and people are cocks.

    DeepQantas on
    m~
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not significant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    What I said was wrong was that "All games should have save anywhere"

    It would break the gameplay of some games, therefore it is wrong to say that all games should have it. I do think that alot of games would benefit from it though.

    I can't think of any game that would be broken by a ff3 ds quicksave deleted on load implementation that some very simple additions wouldn't completely fix. You just need to design it with it in mind rather than shoehorning it in.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not significant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    What I said was wrong was that "All games should have save anywhere"

    It would break the gameplay of some games, therefore it is wrong to say that all games should have it. I do think that alot of games would benefit from it though.

    I can't think of any game that would be broken by a ff3 ds quicksave deleted on load implementation that some very simple additions wouldn't completely fix. You just need to design it with it in mind rather than shoehorning it in.

    It's a good thing you don't program or design games then, because that's not always possible.

    FyreWulff on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    All games should have checkpoints after every fight in the game.

    Couscous on
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    NarianNarian Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    jothki wrote: »
    - FFXII's ability to fight baddies on the overmap instead of transitioning to ugly generic arenas

    More RPGs definetely need this. I really do hate having to load into another area, fight the bad guys, get the victory song, then load back into where I was traveling before. And I always hated how SE was basically "Oh, we almost did that for FFVIII, then FFIX, then FFX, but we could never program it correctly." If Chrono Trigger on the SNES could pull it off, why couldn't the more powerful systems do this?

    I really hope FFXIII manages this, and reports make it sound like it kinda will/kinda won't.

    Exactly. There's so much wasted time there, not to mention the fact that you totally lose immersion. And don't get me started on those horrible cannon fodder fights where you spend a quarter of a minute panning and posturing and one-linering and ^_____^XxX-ing just to one-shot rats. It all adds up.

    FFXII didn't really handle that very well either, considering all of the unavoidable cannon fodder fights that you still have to go through to get anywhere. It kind of seemed like the game was on to something but missed out on its own point.

    Chrono Trigger pulled it off by having every single fight be scripted. There are still arenas, they just look exactly like the normal terrain and there is no visual transition beyond your party splitting up.

    That's why you had a Gambit system, and you could Flee if you wanted.

    Narian on
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    HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not significant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    What I said was wrong was that "All games should have save anywhere"

    It would break the gameplay of some games, therefore it is wrong to say that all games should have it. I do think that alot of games would benefit from it though.

    A lot of games have features that are very useful that can be abused to break the game.

    Key word: Abuse. Abusing a save feature might potentially break a game, but it wastes time, breaks immersion, and many gamers (especially RPG gamers) have had to refrain from abusing game features rather than break the game, and are used to the fact of life. The rest can be disregarded, since most Fallout fans didn't reload every shot until they got an autokill critical headshot, even though it's entirely possible to do so. As for those who actually did, why does that matter, and why should, say, in-combat saving have been disabled as a result? Abusing a save feature doesn't break a game any more than in-game feature already potentially break many of them.

    Hevach on
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    DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    This isn't really a complicated issue. A menu at startup prompts you if you want to play casual, normal, or ironman mode. In casual mode you can save anywhere but the game tells you to use caution (for example, you may want to keep multiple save files - don't save the game at the bottom of a huge dungeon with no health or items). In normal mode, you can save at savepoints and on the world map, and there's a delete-on-load quicksave. In ironman mode, you can only save at save points, and all save points are the Crystal Bugs from FFXII. :x

    From a developer's point of view, it's a little harder (really, not that much, though), and you end up with a slightly larger save file. You have to save position instead of indexed points, or maybe you just index the entrypoints to rooms... depends on the game.

    Delzhand on
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    Lord YodLord Yod Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Delzhand, that's a good idea. Anyone play The Temple of Elemental Evil on PC? It has an ironman mode where the game saves after literally everything you do.

    Character dies? Damn, that sucks, better go recruit someone. Monster got a crit? Hope you have a healing potion.

    Also this delete-save-on-load feature sounds interesting.

    Lord Yod on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not significant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    What I said was wrong was that "All games should have save anywhere"

    It would break the gameplay of some games, therefore it is wrong to say that all games should have it. I do think that alot of games would benefit from it though.

    I can't think of any game that would be broken by a ff3 ds quicksave deleted on load implementation that some very simple additions wouldn't completely fix. You just need to design it with it in mind rather than shoehorning it in.

    It's a good thing you don't program or design games then, because that's not always possible.

    Why not? (Serious question, hit me with all the juicy details and jargon, I can take it)

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    Lord YodLord Yod Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Since there seems to be a big debate about save points vs save anywhere, I made a new thread here.

    Lord Yod on
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    Vert1Vert1 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Explosive red barrels!!

    Vert1 on
    blood_berry_new.jpg
    Sleep wrote: »
    Vert1 wrote: »
    I'd like to ask everyone here one question. What is a game?

    A lower form of sex.
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    Gorilla SaladGorilla Salad Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Vert1 wrote: »
    Explosive red barrels!!
    Article XXVI, Subsection C of game design law states that "If there are guns in your game, there must be at least 1 explosive barrel."

    It's been covered.

    Gorilla Salad on
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    MiserableMirthMiserableMirth Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Difficulty settings that you can select from the beginning of the game and change at check point type intervals.

    Edit: Also, I should note that a barrel full of gasoline will not explode if you shoot it.

    MiserableMirth on
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    bruinbruin Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Difficulty settings that you can select from the beginning of the game and change at check point type intervals.

    Not just any time?

    bruin on
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    MiserableMirthMiserableMirth Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    bruin wrote: »
    Difficulty settings that you can select from the beginning of the game and change at check point type intervals.

    Not just any time?

    Well, I'm hoping developers take a more active role in their difficulty settings than just changing formulas around. I hear Halo 3 does this.

    For example, say your playing a platforming game. You switch it from Normal to Hard, but you did this while standing on a platform that isn't there in the Hard mode and you fall to your death.

    MiserableMirth on
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    LotharsLothars Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Halo 3's video recording should be manditory, but Halo 2's matchmaking should have been manditory aswell and that hasn't worked out exactly.

    I agree that Halo 3 video recording should be mandatory but I really hope Halo 2/3 matchmaking doesn't become the standard because I don't feel like waiting 10 minutes to get into any game everytime no matter what I am playing, now most games should give you the option for both matchmaking and also just avilable games something like a mixture of both.

    I just cannot stand the long wait times for the matchmaking not that it's a bad matchmaker, it's just useless when it's the only option.

    Lothars on
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    bruinbruin Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Photo mode a la the last two PGR games. Pause any time (during gameplay or replays) to enter a free flying first person camera with the ability to change zoom, blur, aperture, etc.

    bruin on
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    PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Lork wrote: »
    Pjstelford wrote: »
    Magus` wrote: »
    The Zelda games are long over-do for a boss rush mode.
    Majora's Mask and The Wind Waker would like to have a word with you.

    Although all bosses can be fought again in MM as often as you like, I'm pretty sure you can only do so one extra time in WW.

    Peewi on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    All games should have a journal.

    Couscous on
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    Vert1Vert1 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    bruin wrote: »
    Difficulty settings that you can select from the beginning of the game and change at check point type intervals.

    Not just any time?

    I'm not too fond of pussing out in the middle of a game by lowering difficulty. What do you think of God Hand's normal difficulty system?

    Vert1 on
    blood_berry_new.jpg
    Sleep wrote: »
    Vert1 wrote: »
    I'd like to ask everyone here one question. What is a game?

    A lower form of sex.
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    PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    DeepQantas wrote: »
    Every multiplayer game needs REAL map and kickvote menus that are designed by the actual devs instead of hackers.

    Cos when hackers do it it's ugly, only available on every tenth server and no one knows how to use it. And yet everyone needs them because map rotations always have sucky maps and people are cocks.

    Somehow I forgot, but I also thought of that some time ago while playing TF2.

    I think that a lot of games should have a mode where you can spawn enemies and items and fuck with shit in general. I wouldn't mind if such things would require to be unlocked before they can be used.

    Peewi on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Commentary like Riddick, not like Valves offerings in Orange box.

    The Riddick one from Starbreeze was not only as informative, it was longer, had more variation in media (lot of video commentary nodes) and felt more like DVD extras. It was also hilarious, whereas the valve one is completely dry and clinical.

    The_Scarab on
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    UltrachristUltrachrist Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    All MMOs should have CoHs sidekick system.

    All console multiplayer games should have as complete an online functionality as halo does (especially in regards to matchmaking).

    All games should have multiple difficulty levels.

    Ultrachrist on
    ultrachrist2.png
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    OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not sign
    ificant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    What I said was wrong was that "All games should have save anywhere"

    It would break the gameplay of some games, therefore it is wrong to say that all games should have it. I do think that alot of games would benefit from it though.

    I can't think of any game that would be broken by a ff3 ds quicksave deleted on load implementation that some very simple additions wouldn't completely fix. You just need to design it with it in mind rather than shoehorning it in.

    It's a good thing you don't program or design games then, because that's not always possible.

    Why not? (Serious question, hit me with all the juicy details and jargon, I can take it)

    I'm curious too. From a gameplay point of view (i.e, not a technical one) isn't this basically the same thing as what happens when you close your DS with the game still running?

    Orogogus on
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    EdcrabEdcrab Actually a hack Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Peewi wrote: »
    I think that a lot of games should have a mode where you can spawn enemies and items and fuck with shit in general. I wouldn't mind if such things would require to be unlocked before they can be used.

    If there's any game that I really wanted to have a sandbox mode, it was Dark Messiah.

    Just give me a selection of arenas and the option to spawn swarms of enemies- the combat was so awesome I could probably have done it all day. And if it had had co-op I'd have probably exploded.

    Edcrab on
    cBY55.gifbmJsl.png
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    All games should have a journal.

    I read this and this immediately lined up in my head:

    Tetris:

    Tuesday:
    Fit an T block into an L block! Much excitement!

    Mario world:

    Tuesday:

    Wahoo! Yahaaa! It's a mario!


    Half Life:

    Tuesday:

    Fuck headcrabs.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    jothkijothki Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not significant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    What I said was wrong was that "All games should have save anywhere"

    It would break the gameplay of some games, therefore it is wrong to say that all games should have it. I do think that alot of games would benefit from it though.

    I can't think of any game that would be broken by a ff3 ds quicksave deleted on load implementation that some very simple additions wouldn't completely fix. You just need to design it with it in mind rather than shoehorning it in.

    It's a good thing you don't program or design games then, because that's not always possible.

    Why not? (Serious question, hit me with all the juicy details and jargon, I can take it)

    Depending on how the game is set up, a quicksave might need to pretty much be an entire memory dump. ff3 and other games can get away with it since it probably (I haven't actually played it, just guessing) only needs to save everything in a normal file and the current avatar position.

    jothki on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    shyguy wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Being able to save anywhere breaks some games. And I don't mean from the perspective of using quicksave/load to cheat the game, because that can be gotten around by just having the load erase itself after loading, but I mean any game where you could get lost easilly, forcing you to save at specific places, not just anywhere means you are less likely to get lost when you load up next time.

    Wait... how is that a downside? Getting lost in a game and having no idea what to do is one of the things that will simply make me shut off a game and never play it again.

    The point I was making was that people saying "All games should let me save anywhere" are wrong, because in some games it would potentially ruin it.

    That point laid up against people with little spare time not being able to play it at all is not significant enough for you to be labelling their desire with an arbritrary designation like "wrong".

    What I said was wrong was that "All games should have save anywhere"

    It would break the gameplay of some games, therefore it is wrong to say that all games should have it. I do think that alot of games would benefit from it though.

    I can't think of any game that would be broken by a ff3 ds quicksave deleted on load implementation that some very simple additions wouldn't completely fix. You just need to design it with it in mind rather than shoehorning it in.

    It's a good thing you don't program or design games then, because that's not always possible.

    Why not? (Serious question, hit me with all the juicy details and jargon, I can take it)

    Not all games are created equal, and can save in the same amount of data.

    Let's take an RPG, for example. The reason most RPGs let you have a save-anytime (unless it's restricted for balance reasons) is that they only have to store your X,Y,Z, which party members you have, and their stats, and event tags (did you get to this point, do you have this special item, etc). You usually have no need to save any enemy or NPC states, or physics object states, etc.

    The more complicated the game gets, the more space you will need to save. Now on PC games, you could get away with this a bit more since everyone has $TEXAS GB of space these days. But on consoles, you have to account for the smallest amount of space available. And even then you don't want to be taking up a person's entire memory card unless you reallly have to.

    Regardless of how much space, you must also consider how to handle -any- event that is occuring at any time if you allow quicksave. For example, in Halo 2 the following is saved when you hit a checkpoint:

    * Player state (xyz, ammo count, weapons, direction being faced, health)
    * Enemy state (xyz, direction being faced, it's current target, the current position in it's decision tree, it's health, knowledge of dead squadmates)
    * Ally state (xyz, direction, knowledge of allies, current position in it's decision tree, gender, face, accesories)
    * Physics object states (location, damage, velocity)
    * Vehicle states (location, damage, velocity, model)
    * all level tags
    * dead bodies
    * much more

    coming out to about a 4MB save file. And that's still not saving "everything", for example it does not save if you are shooting or swinging, etc.

    And this is "just an FPS". Doom 3 can get away with quicksaving because all it does is save your location, ammo, guns, and a quick list of tags and enemy locations. Dead bodies are not tracked, you don't have allies, there's hardly any physics objects, etc.

    The more complicated of a game state you have to track, the bigger the file and the bigger the problems you encounter. For example, nobody will talk in Halo until -after- you get a checkpoint. This is so they don't have to save the current tracking position in a dialogue file for anything being spoken.

    Now, the easy way out would be to just save the entire contents of RAM to disk and be done with it. This can be done with the e-word, and NES/SNES/TGX16/Genesis games on Virtual Consoles. e-words can do it due to the vast amount of HDD space. NES/SNES/etc VC games can do it because the original console had very low amounts of total RAM in the first place. N64 games cannot do it because that would be an 8MB file -in addition to- any save file that the game itself generates, and would eat up the Wii internal memory pretty damn fast. You get up to the PS2: 24MB -at least- to save, GC would be 36, and the Xbox would have taken 64MB to do it. Now you have the Wii at 84MB, the 360 at 512MB, and the PS3 at 384 (128MB is reserved for the XMB) and your available space is disappearing fast. Couple with the fact that dumping the entire contents of RAM to the disk would make it much easier for people to circumvent any of the 3 console's DRM/hacking preventions, and you'll see why nobody is in a rush to do so.

    It should also be noted that the DS/PSP/other handhelds do sleep mode by turning everything off possible while maintaining the current contents of RAM with a small charge. On the GBA this was the speakers, link port, game port and screen. DS games have a bit more control over what happens when you close the DS and can selectively keep certain things on, like WIFI or the speakers. Nothing is being 'saved', it's just pausing the game and turning off non-essential items.

    Either way, in my opinion as a developer, i don't really care if a game has quicksave or checkpoint systems or save points, as long as it's balanced well. Not every game should have quicksaves (if you don't have the time to play a game with long checkpoints, learn 2 pause or I guess that game is not for you) and not every game should have Halo's auto-checkpoint system. Heck, I don't care if the game has a password system as long as it's not too long and I have an option to save anyway (passwords were used by developers to save money on not paying for SRAM or save batteries). Although it does really suck when a developer will do an auto-checkpoint system but botch it.

    A fine example of a game pulling off save points well? Tales of Symphonia. I didn't even know I could save out on the overworld until my brother pointed it out to me a year after playing the game for the first time..

    FyreWulff on
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    SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Half Life:

    Tuesday:

    Fuck Alyx.

    :winky:

    SithDrummer on
  • Options
    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Half Life:

    Tuesday:

    Fuck Alyx.

    :winky:

    :^:

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    PlesioPlesio Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Arrath wrote: »
    No pre-boss fight save points before the boss' cutscene. I hate dying and having to watch the same 5 minute speech over and over.

    Baten Kaitos: Origins had a good solution to this. The save points were still before the cutscenes, but if you died during a boss fight (and only then) the game would ask if you wanted to retry, then allow you to modify your deck and try again, instead of booting you to the last save point.

    Plesio on
  • Options
    DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »

    Not all games are created equal, and can save in the same amount of data.

    Let's take an RPG, for example. The reason most RPGs let you have a save-anytime (unless it's restricted for balance reasons) is that they only have to store your X,Y,Z, which party members you have, and their stats, and event tags (did you get to this point, do you have this special item, etc). You usually have no need to save any enemy or NPC states, or physics object states, etc.

    The more complicated the game gets, the more space you will need to save. Now on PC games, you could get away with this a bit more since everyone has $TEXAS GB of space these days. But on consoles, you have to account for the smallest amount of space available. And even then you don't want to be taking up a person's entire memory card unless you reallly have to.

    Regardless of how much space, you must also consider how to handle -any- event that is occuring at any time if you allow quicksave. For example, in Halo 2 the following is saved when you hit a checkpoint:

    * Player state (xyz, ammo count, weapons, direction being faced, health)
    * Enemy state (xyz, direction being faced, it's current target, the current position in it's decision tree, it's health, knowledge of dead squadmates)
    * Ally state (xyz, direction, knowledge of allies, current position in it's decision tree, gender, face, accesories)
    * Physics object states (location, damage, velocity)
    * Vehicle states (location, damage, velocity, model)
    * all level tags
    * dead bodies
    * much more

    coming out to about a 4MB save file. And that's still not saving "everything", for example it does not save if you are shooting or swinging, etc.

    And this is "just an FPS". Doom 3 can get away with quicksaving because all it does is save your location, ammo, guns, and a quick list of tags and enemy locations. Dead bodies are not tracked, you don't have allies, there's hardly any physics objects, etc.

    The more complicated of a game state you have to track, the bigger the file and the bigger the problems you encounter. For example, nobody will talk in Halo until -after- you get a checkpoint. This is so they don't have to save the current tracking position in a dialogue file for anything being spoken.

    Now, the easy way out would be to just save the entire contents of RAM to disk and be done with it. This can be done with the e-word, and NES/SNES/TGX16/Genesis games on Virtual Consoles. e-words can do it due to the vast amount of HDD space. NES/SNES/etc VC games can do it because the original console had very low amounts of total RAM in the first place. N64 games cannot do it because that would be an 8MB file -in addition to- any save file that the game itself generates, and would eat up the Wii internal memory pretty damn fast. You get up to the PS2: 24MB -at least- to save, GC would be 36, and the Xbox would have taken 64MB to do it. Now you have the Wii at 84MB, the 360 at 512MB, and the PS3 at 384 (128MB is reserved for the XMB) and your available space is disappearing fast. Couple with the fact that dumping the entire contents of RAM to the disk would make it much easier for people to circumvent any of the 3 console's DRM/hacking preventions, and you'll see why nobody is in a rush to do so.

    It should also be noted that the DS/PSP/other handhelds do sleep mode by turning everything off possible while maintaining the current contents of RAM with a small charge. On the GBA this was the speakers, link port, game port and screen. DS games have a bit more control over what happens when you close the DS and can selectively keep certain things on, like WIFI or the speakers. Nothing is being 'saved', it's just pausing the game and turning off non-essential items.

    Either way, in my opinion as a developer, i don't really care if a game has quicksave or checkpoint systems or save points, as long as it's balanced well. Not every game should have quicksaves (if you don't have the time to play a game with long checkpoints, learn 2 pause or I guess that game is not for you) and not every game should have Halo's auto-checkpoint system. Heck, I don't care if the game has a password system as long as it's not too long and I have an option to save anyway (passwords were used by developers to save money on not paying for SRAM or save batteries). Although it does really suck when a developer will do an auto-checkpoint system but botch it.

    A fine example of a game pulling off save points well? Tales of Symphonia. I didn't even know I could save out on the overworld until my brother pointed it out to me a year after playing the game for the first time..

    Without going into details, these are pretty flimsy reasons not to have some sort of quicksave. You don't have to save the position of every joint in enemy 398's body as he ragdolls through the air or the position of the 2000 particles in the rocket explosion. A quicksave isn't (and shouldn't be) a RAM dump. Save event tags, player status, and last room entered. Or something like that. Obviously depends on the game, but at what point are we delving into game design for a specific game as opposed to a theoretical "how-to"?

    Delzhand on
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