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EB and the gutting of games

mooshoeporkmooshoepork Registered User regular
edited November 2007 in Games and Technology
I know this has been done to death but I am pissed off. This has never been a problem for me before now, but as time goes on I am seeing Australia's EBs turn into American ones, but pushing pre-orders, and of course "gutting" games.

If I pay for something new, I want it to be fucking new. While some find this superficial, I don't care. Today for instance, I bought Gears of War (just got a 360), the guy has a bitchfit because it doesn't have a " BUY 2 GET ONE FREE" sticker plastered over the cover, he then gets me a crumpled manual, and a "classics" disc, rather than the normal disc. I didn't discover this until I got home. The box is also slightly warped. It is incredibly annoying to have paid "new price" for something, that is in terrible condition.

Usually I don't care if a game has been "gutted". I myself didn't know what the fuss was about until just now. I don't mind if it looks like new, but more than often it doesn't. Here in Australia we don't have much choice of where to shop for games, and I dread going to EB. I will probably buy games on the internet from now on.

Does this piss anyone else off?

mooshoepork on
«13456725

Posts

  • DarkstrykeDarkstryke Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Know what's more annoying? Someone trying for 10 fucking minutes to get you to buy a preowned game for $5 less. uh...no thanks.

    Darkstryke on
  • RookieRookie Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I actually had a great experience with all the EB's I was at when I lived in Australia for most of this year. They had sales there that I've NEVER seen here in Canada.

    But really, nobody is a supporter of gutting games.

    Rookie on
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  • mooshoeporkmooshoepork Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was buying Zelda for the DS the other day. The guy tried to get me to buy this instead:

    box-l.jpg

    I shit you not.

    mooshoepork on
  • Disco BanditDisco Bandit Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Yeah, but that doesn't really make up for the super high prices over there, in both Australia and New Zealand. I didn't do much shoping in Australia, but I remember a new DS game in New Zealand was about $50 (American) at the time.

    Disco Bandit on
    Pokemon Diamond: 5412 9146 7564
  • DeusfauxDeusfaux Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    You know what else I have realised about EBgames?

    The total lack of efficiency they have at getting customers in and out of their store.

    The last several times barring an exception or 2 (I think due to odd hours I was there), there has been a long extremely slow moving lineup being served by 2 staff who take just FOREVER to process anybody regardless of what they need.

    Even just buying a new game I mean they got to look it up and see if they have it, go find it, go find the gutted contents, offer warranty, strategy guide, blah blah blah blah....

    Don't they realise it's detrimental to their business? People will leave or choose not to buy anything at that time if they see they have to wait 20 minutes in a tiny shop just to ask a question or buy something.

    Oh and there were 1 or 2 other staff doing other random things in the back or sorting shelves as well.

    Deusfaux on
  • mooshoeporkmooshoepork Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The store I went to today, each customer it took about 5 minutes. They just typed stuff on the computer. Maybe they are broken. So you stand there, waiting, for maybe 15 minutes, with My Chemical Romance blearing in your ears. urgh. Playasia from now on. I was just impatient to play something. Never again.

    mooshoepork on
  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    1. It saves retailers time/effort and therfore money

    2. It is not going to stop unless a significant number of people refuse to buy gutted games, causing it to no longer save retailers money.

    3. There are plenty of alternatives (either use eBay and pay used price but get it in used condition, or online retailers and Supermarkets, pay new price and get new condition)

    LewieP on
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    interestingly, on normal occasions I refuse to go into eb/gamestops. Not because of some moral issue with their practices, but overall irritation with many of their employees, and possibly more so their customers. After one time listening to a manager try to "explain" to a lady why she didn't want to get her kid a Wii, when that's what her kid asked for, because it would fail miserably and that she should get a PS3 because that's "where it's going to be at", I had vowed never to go into one again.

    However, in my complete failure to find FFXII:Revenant Wings at any other store in Utah County and southern Salt Lake County, I hung my head and wandered into the EBGames next to Best Buy. They actually had a copy, and actually sold it to me, without a preorder. They didn't harass me to preorder anything or sell anything. They didn't offer any magazines and when I was clearly looking for a game and not finding it on the shelf an employee politely asked if they could help me and they did.

    Don't get me wrong, I know this experience was like winning the lottery in its rarity; but nonetheless I'm a happy owner of FFXII for the DS (which so far is very good, I'm really impressed with what SE pulled off with 3D on the DS) and I had a good EBGames experence.

    Still, I should probably not risk another trip into an ebgames, heh, I know next time will be pure hell like it is usually.

    The Dude With Herpes on
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  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was buying Zelda for the DS the other day. The guy tried to get me to buy this instead:

    box-l.jpg

    I shit you not.

    He tried to make you buy it?

    Wait what? Did he say "You know Zelda is good and all.. But what you REALLY need to play is this game about cake."

    I hope you shouted in his face that the cake is a lie then ran out of the store screaming.

    randombattle on
    itsstupidbutidontcare2.gif
    I never asked for this!
  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Its only very recently that I've noticed the local EB taking a turn for the worse like this.

    It could have something to do with all the good old staff they have resigning and being hired by the GAME about 10 stores down from EB though.

    But yeah, if you can, stick to importing titles whenever you can or online shopping nowadays, getting screwed with too expensive prices, the "would you like to pre-order" and all the rest of it makes it more hassle than its worth when you can go to JB and often buy games for half the price, or from VG+.

    Kelor on
  • CoreoCoreo Sydney AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I used to work at eb and I agree that the gutting of games and the pushing of sales is a pain not only to the consumer but to the worker, honestly I think it was embarrasing when I had to push sales with the managers breathing down my back..knowing full well that the customer was hating me for trying to push a game to them that maybe they couldn't afford or I actually thought was a bad game, when the manager wasn't checking up on me I was completely honest with them although there was the occasional secret shopper checking up to see if we were doing the "right" thing.

    It's just a store based on making money, not giving customers a good game.

    What's really starting to worry me is how many EB stores are now opening and how close they are all starting to be to each other, at one shopping mall there is 2 EBs on 2 levels. They're opening EB stores almost walking distance between each other now.

    Coreo on
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was buying Zelda for the DS the other day. The guy tried to get me to buy this instead:

    ZOMG CAKE

    I shit you not.

    He tried to make you buy it?

    Wait what? Did he say "You know Zelda is good and all.. But what you REALLY need to play is this game about cake."

    I hope you shouted in his face that the cake is a lie then ran out of the store screaming.

    LOL And recorded it and put it on youtube for us to see.

    The Dude With Herpes on
    Steam: Galedrid - XBL: Galedrid - PSN: Galedrid
    Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
    Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand

  • plufimplufim Dr Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    My EB has 5 wii games in the generic "case missing" boxes. Fair enough, these things can happen.


    They're selling them for full price :/

    plufim on
    3DS 0302-0029-3193 NNID plufim steam plufim PSN plufim
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  • PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    All these anti EBgames posts makes me happy that the ones we have here aren't like the american ones. Personally I haven't experienced any gutted games in EBgames.
    There are however other places that gut the games and I almost left with an empty box when I bought Metroid Prime 3.

    Peewi on
  • mooshoeporkmooshoepork Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was buying Zelda for the DS the other day. The guy tried to get me to buy this instead:

    ZOMG CAKE

    I shit you not.

    He tried to make you buy it?

    Wait what? Did he say "You know Zelda is good and all.. But what you REALLY need to play is this game about cake."

    I hope you shouted in his face that the cake is a lie then ran out of the store screaming.

    LOL And recorded it and put it on youtube for us to see.

    I was like...what? I couldn't believe my ears. I just looked at him, with a look of utmost confusion.

    " no... uh, no...I think I will be fine?

    He then said: but " How hot is the chick on the front dude

    I wish I was fucking kidding.

    mooshoepork on
  • UltravisitorUltravisitor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Yeah thats bullshit...if the game is opened they should at least sell it to you for the used price. What is also bullshit is the fact that they assume you wont mind at all that they are sellin ya an opened game.

    Fuck Gamestop...fuck them and their stupid "circle of life" card detailin how important subscriptions and preorders are for employees.

    Ultravisitor on
    flcl1-1.jpg
  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was buying Zelda for the DS the other day. The guy tried to get me to buy this instead:

    ZOMG CAKE

    I shit you not.

    He tried to make you buy it?

    Wait what? Did he say "You know Zelda is good and all.. But what you REALLY need to play is this game about cake."

    I hope you shouted in his face that the cake is a lie then ran out of the store screaming.

    LOL And recorded it and put it on youtube for us to see.

    I was like...what? I couldn't believe my ears. I just looked at him, with a look of utmost confusion.

    " no... uh, no...I think I will be fine?

    He then said: but " How hot is the chick on the front dude

    I wish I was fucking kidding.

    No. You're lying.
    You have to be lying.

    Cervetus on
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Yeah thats bullshit...if the game is opened they should at least sell it to you for the used price. What is also bullshit is the fact that they assume you wont mind at all that they are sellin ya an opened game.

    Fuck Gamestop...fuck them and their stupid "circle of life" card detailin how important subscriptions and preorders are for employees.

    do what now?

    The Dude With Herpes on
    Steam: Galedrid - XBL: Galedrid - PSN: Galedrid
    Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
    Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand

  • GilderGilder Aw snap Macaroni PartyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I have the best EBStop ever. I call it "The Forgotten EB" because it's hidden away in a shopping center that almost nobody goes in. I don't go in very often but everytime I do, it's great. I went today because they were the only store that had a game I wanted and they were the only ones to actually listen to the whole name of the game and actually look for it. I went in, got it, and that was it. I didn't pre-order or anything. There was no hassle about it, no pushing of magazines, nothing. The employees there are also nice and know what they're talking about. In fact, the female employee actually recognized me from the Wii launch last year. I was 3 spots behind her in the camp-out. She must have the most photographic memory in the world.

    Gilder on
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Gilder wrote: »
    I have the best EBStop ever. I call it "The Forgotten EB" because it's hidden away in a shopping center that almost nobody goes in. I don't go in very often but everytime I do, it's great. I went today because they were the only store that had a game I wanted and they were the only ones to actually listen to the whole name of the game and actually look for it. I went in, got it, and that was it. I didn't pre-order or anything. There was no hassle about it, no pushing of magazines, nothing. The employees there are also nice and know what they're talking about. In fact, the female employee actually recognized me from the Wii launch last year. I was 3 spots behind her in the camp-out. She must have the most photographic memory in the world.

    or else....:winky:

    The Dude With Herpes on
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    Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
    Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand

  • HearthjawHearthjaw Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    If you're looking for preowned gaming options in Australia, other then EB try GAME (formally gamewizards). To tell the truth though I'm pretty happy with EBAustralia after they sold Mass Effect so early.

    Hearthjaw on
    steamid: sewersider
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Yeah thats bullshit...if the game is opened they should at least sell it to you for the used price. What is also bullshit is the fact that they assume you wont mind at all that they are sellin ya an opened game.

    Fuck Gamestop...fuck them and their stupid "circle of life" card detailin how important subscriptions and preorders are for employees.

    do what now?
    I'm really surprised that I couldn't (quickly) find an image of it online. It's just a business card (I think they have them on the backs of the name tags now) describing the ideal business cycle for Gamestop: game gets reserved, game gets bought, game gets traded in, used game gets bought, etc.

    Bama on
  • ecco the dolphinecco the dolphin Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Yeah, but that doesn't really make up for the super high prices over there, in both Australia and New Zealand. I didn't do much shoping in Australia, but I remember a new DS game in New Zealand was about $50 (American) at the time.

    They still are very expensive. It makes me sad.

    Here's a link to GPStore's DS RPG section. Admittedly, they're not always the cheapest. First few games are NZD$79.95, which according to Google is currently USD$60. Even including cost of shipping from America, it's cheaper to import. Other factors such as release dates also factor in - I mean, would you believe that Trauma Center: Second Opinion has not been officially released in Australia/New Zealand yet?

    Surprisingly enough, for all those fellow Kiwis on this board, I've found good deals to be had at the local Warehouse (from what I gather, it's like our Best Buy equivalent). Got GH3 there for NZD$154 - other places like EB Games were selling it for around NZD$170.

    ecco the dolphin on
    Penny Arcade Developers at PADev.net.
  • ScrabbleDudeScrabbleDude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was buying Zelda for the DS the other day. The guy tried to get me to buy this instead:

    ZOMG CAKE

    I shit you not.

    He tried to make you buy it?

    Wait what? Did he say "You know Zelda is good and all.. But what you REALLY need to play is this game about cake."

    I hope you shouted in his face that the cake is a lie then ran out of the store screaming.

    LOL And recorded it and put it on youtube for us to see.

    I was like...what? I couldn't believe my ears. I just looked at him, with a look of utmost confusion.

    " no... uh, no...I think I will be fine?

    He then said: but " How hot is the chick on the front dude

    I wish I was fucking kidding.
    When I worked at EB we'd do that kind of thing to make a boring retail job fun. Once we had a contest to see who could sell a used copy of Cat in the Hat for the PS2 first. We'd try to sell it to everybody. "I'd like to buy Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory." "I know you think that...but have you ever played Cat in the Hat?"

    ScrabbleDude on
  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Darkstryke wrote: »
    Know what's more annoying? Someone trying for 10 fucking minutes to get you to buy a preowned game for $5 less. uh...no thanks.

    They do that at my store as well. They're actually trying to do you a favor, becasue they can't give you your full money back if you buy a new copy. Buying a used one means you can get a full refund if you return it within a week.

    I see nothing wrong with this.

    Goatmon on
    Switch Friend Code: SW-6680-6709-4204


  • QorzmQorzm Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I work at Gamestop and it is a terrible company for many, many reasons, but not because of gutting games.

    Qorzm on
  • ScrabbleDudeScrabbleDude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Darkstryke wrote: »
    Know what's more annoying? Someone trying for 10 fucking minutes to get you to buy a preowned game for $5 less. uh...no thanks.

    They do that at my store as well. They're actually trying to do you a favor, becasue they can't give you your full money back if you buy a new copy. Buying a used one means you can get a full refund if you return it within a week.

    I see nothing wrong with this.
    Actually they're not trying to do you a favour. Their profit margins are far larger on used product and the sales folk have higher quotas on used product than new product.

    ScrabbleDude on
  • Road BlockRoad Block Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    This talk makes me glad that the closest to an EB we have is A: Decent and B: Charges the right god damn prices. Also nice that they can get almost anything thats out within about a day.

    Road Block on
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Darkstryke wrote: »
    Know what's more annoying? Someone trying for 10 fucking minutes to get you to buy a preowned game for $5 less. uh...no thanks.

    They do that at my store as well. They're actually trying to do you a favor, becasue they can't give you your full money back if you buy a new copy. Buying a used one means you can get a full refund if you return it within a week.

    I see nothing wrong with this.
    Actually they're not trying to do you a favour. Their profit margins are far larger on used product and the sales folk have higher quotas on used product than new product.

    Doing you a favor and doing themselves a favor/meeting quotas/increasing profit margins are not mutually exclusive. Harping on the matter for ten minutes is a different matter, but I've never incountered that behavior. It's easy enough for them to offer the used copy and, if I decline, offer the return benefits of the used copy while ringing up the game I brought to the counter.

    Hevach on
  • QorzmQorzm Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Darkstryke wrote: »
    Know what's more annoying? Someone trying for 10 fucking minutes to get you to buy a preowned game for $5 less. uh...no thanks.

    They do that at my store as well. They're actually trying to do you a favor, becasue they can't give you your full money back if you buy a new copy. Buying a used one means you can get a full refund if you return it within a week.

    I see nothing wrong with this.
    Actually they're not trying to do you a favour. Their profit margins are far larger on used product and the sales folk have higher quotas on used product than new product.
    I don't know why employees that aren't managers even bother pushing for used games. If more employees were lazy, like me, they wouldn't want to have to walk across the store to grab the case, and then find the disc. It's so convenient to just turn around and grab a sealed game!

    Also because it doesn't really make us look good. People only look at your reservation and Game Informer numbers. No one really cares about selling used stuff, except managers. I've been there over a year now and they haven't even told me something like "If we have a used copy, why don't you offer it to them to help our store out?" They should have, but they haven't. There's even a screen that pops up if we have it used, and I just hit no every time.

    Qorzm on
  • Nicho86Nicho86 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I'm an aussie, so I know what you mean about EB going downhill here. I've found that I will be forced to preorder something, yet still end up with a box covered in stickers and promotions that are impossible to pull off cleanly even though the game had been sitting out the back for me to pick up. I reckon that JB HiFi is a decent alternative now. They always seem to have a whole lot of every new game as soon as it is released with virtually no tampering with the original packaging. They do have to put the disc in the box, but I've never had any problems with their stuff.

    Nicho86 on
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  • mooshoeporkmooshoepork Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Yeah, JB was really busy today, and didn't seem to have Gears of War. Usually they are very good though. And FUCK those stickers. Urgh. All my games are going to be imported from now on. I feel kind of good though, as I screwed EB over the other day, by trading in 10, 8 dollar xbox games, and their own used xbox, to buy a 360.

    Instead of paying 538, it worked out to 376. The guy wasn't too impressed. But he had no right to deny me, seeing as I had a catalogue etc...

    mooshoepork on
  • HylianZoraHylianZora Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Hey, now.
    American EB's aren't so bad.
    The manager there often gives me some of the little decorations for advertising new games.
    He also saved for me a Wii by putting it in an XBox box.
    However, when I was out of town and wanted to buy one of the Remote Control Mario Karts, this one employee kept harassing me to buy this Megaman Starforce, or something.
    I HATE the BN series.
    So yeah, they're not ALL bad.
    Just that when they are bad, they tend to be worse than the local mall on Black Friday when your girlfriend drags you along as uses you as a pack mule AND a shield.

    HylianZora on
    My Pokemon Diamond FC is 4253 0208 2286
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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I no longer do business with EBStop, and this is among the reasons why. When I purchased Phoenix Wright, not only did they not have the manual but they didn't have the fucking case for it, so they gave it to me in the case for the sequel. Which looked terrible when I bought the sequel and had them lined up with the rest of my games. But anyway. The friction with this game up when I sold the game back to them. They didn't want to give me credit for the fucking game because of its condition. I had to argue with them that they gave it to me in that condition and they have no right to turn that shit around on me as they did. I did get the money for it I felt I was owed, but it was too much.

    The local Gamestop hasn't been THAT bad in the way of pushing pre-orders or Game Informer subscriptions, but the location at my local mall is intense on that nonsense. My decision to stop doing business with the company altogether was when the store I regularly go to hired me for holiday help, and told me they were going to call me to let me know about a training class they were setting up for all their holiday help employees. I called them to double check on the info, and it wasn't set up. Called them again a week and a half later, and they already had it. They cut me out of the fucking loop after telling me I was in.

    So fuck them. I'm going to Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA - whoever has the better deal. I don't give a shit about pre-ordering a game, I know those places will have it.

    Henroid on
  • DrCongoDrCongo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    When I worked at EB we'd do that kind of thing to make a boring retail job fun. Once we had a contest to see who could sell a used copy of Cat in the Hat for the PS2 first. We'd try to sell it to everybody. "I'd like to buy Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory." "I know you think that...but have you ever played Cat in the Hat?"
    If a game store sales person did that to me (ie. tried to push a shit game on me instead of the one I wanted), that would certainly be the last time I went to that particular store.

    DrCongo on
  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    DrCongo wrote: »
    When I worked at EB we'd do that kind of thing to make a boring retail job fun. Once we had a contest to see who could sell a used copy of Cat in the Hat for the PS2 first. We'd try to sell it to everybody. "I'd like to buy Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory." "I know you think that...but have you ever played Cat in the Hat?"
    If a game store sales person did that to me (ie. tried to push a shit game on me instead of the one I wanted), that would certainly be the last time I went to that particular store.
    EBstop isn't even a real retail place. At other retails stores I worked at or hear about, it's always about getting the customer what they want and tacking on what they need. EBstop doesn't give a good-god-damn about what the customer wants.

    Edit - Yes, my tone is harsh, but my post above explains why. I can never speak of the company positively again.

    Henroid on
  • Blake TBlake T Do you have enemies then? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Do you know what I dislike?




    Australians bitching. Seriously, EB has never not gutted games or plastered stickers all over them. I am puzzled why it is now an outrage.

    Blake T on
  • ViscountalphaViscountalpha The pen is mightier than the sword http://youtu.be/G_sBOsh-vyIRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was buying Zelda for the DS the other day. The guy tried to get me to buy this instead:

    ZOMG CAKE

    I shit you not.

    He tried to make you buy it?

    Wait what? Did he say "You know Zelda is good and all.. But what you REALLY need to play is this game about cake."

    I hope you shouted in his face that the cake is a lie then ran out of the store screaming.

    LOL And recorded it and put it on youtube for us to see.

    I was like...what? I couldn't believe my ears. I just looked at him, with a look of utmost confusion.

    " no... uh, no...I think I will be fine?

    He then said: but " How hot is the chick on the front dude

    I wish I was fucking kidding.


    HAHAHHAAH That is awesome. The sad and hilarious part is, I believe you.

    Viscountalpha on
  • UltravisitorUltravisitor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Yeah thats bullshit...if the game is opened they should at least sell it to you for the used price. What is also bullshit is the fact that they assume you wont mind at all that they are sellin ya an opened game.

    Fuck Gamestop...fuck them and their stupid "circle of life" card detailin how important subscriptions and preorders are for employees.

    do what now?

    I worked there for bout two days (due to creepy harassment reasons)...but they give you a wallet card to carry around that details, what my manager called "The circle of life". I forgot the exact order, but it tells how you have to basically interact with the cutsomer. Like, for example...first, you have to ask them if they have trade ins, then you bug them about subscriptions, after that, you ask them to preorder shit...there was one more, but I forgot. Hopefully it was to actually sell a tangible game.

    Ultravisitor on
    flcl1-1.jpg
  • Katchem_ashKatchem_ash __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Seriously EBGames has the worst distributer ever. Freaking Puzzle Harvest Moon was released on the 30th and there are plenty of copies in Walmart and 3rd party game stores which are smaller than EB. And what does EB do? "Oh we can't find it". Brilliant. I paid for my pre-order, I demand the game!

    Katchem_ash on
This discussion has been closed.