Options

Do you think this is as far as MMORPGs will evolve?

124678

Posts

  • Options
    KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It has to be instanced for WOW - the scale wouldn't work otherwise. It would only take 5-10 minutes to walk across a zone I suspect, how could you fit housing in that, without it looking silly and crowded? By comparison it used to take me an hour to walk across the farm I grew up on, and that was about 800 acres in size.

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Options
    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I doubt they're as much of a minority as you think.

    Care to support this statement? Because last time I checked, I believe the current playerbase that has done BT numbers less than one percent of the population. So doubt all you want, but without some sort of numbers to back up your statement, you're just posting blind conjecture.

    delroland on
    EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
    "Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
  • Options
    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    'Raid players' covers a lot more territory than raids that are in BT. Who's to say the [House Kit] wouldn't be a rare drop from any raid boss?

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • Options
    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    You still haven't supported your statement. Find the percentage of players that have killed the last boss in Kara, and if it is higher than five percent, I will be amazed. Heck, THREE percent is a bit of a stretch. So why make content that will only be available to one out of twenty or thirty players?

    delroland on
    EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
    "Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
  • Options
    piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Less than five percent of WoW characters are probably dwarf rogues. Fuck dwarf rogues.

    piL on
  • Options
    MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    delroland wrote: »
    You still haven't supported your statement. Find the percentage of players that have killed the last boss in Kara, and if it is higher than five percent, I will be amazed. Heck, THREE percent is a bit of a stretch. So why make content that will only be available to one out of twenty or thirty players?

    There are no hard statistics for this sort of thing, as they are impossible to get if you are not Blizzard themselves, and they don't give numbers. Everything else is speculation, and I would definitely call you wrong as Nightbane is not at all difficult. You haven't supported your statement either, "I believe" does not count.

    Mgcw on
  • Options
    piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Here's a study someone did in 2006. Obviously not up to date or anything, but I think 30% of mas levels is a big enough group to cater too, especially considering your average level 10 has probably paid 15-30 in monthly fees, while your average level 70 has probably paid in the neighborhood of $100 (a conservative estimate considering that's only about six months and some people have been playing since release).

    The number for all characters in total is 3.6%, but the percentage of players (or rather accounts, as if I let my 10 year old brother start and play a shaman to level 5, he can hardly count) is obviously higher than this (I postulate much higher), if you include people having twinks, characters to mess around with, bank alts, and even multiple 70s (like some certain crazy paladins we know).

    Of course, accurate numbers are still difficult to obtain, especially with trial accounts and what not. What's more, you have to consider that a raid player is "worth more" than some other players, in that if a person only gets to level 25, they're probably far more likely to quit after three months than to keep playing for a year. Also, raid players often draw other players in. If I only get to about level 40 and something new and shiny and fun looking comes out, I'll probably go play that. Raid players are more likely to stick, convince their friends to play, and convince your friends to stay. I don't know how long I kept playing WoW because I had a friend or two in a raiding guild.

    One more thing to throw on top of there? A good deal of people play with raider as their golden maguffin they pursue endlessly. Even if they never are good enough, plenty of people pay enough money to keep trying to get there, and $15 is $15 no matter who it comes from. Keeping that raid content as a pretty goal means more people will want to stay longer to try to attain it, even if they aren't actually a raiding character.

    piL on
  • Options
    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Mgcw wrote: »
    There are no hard statistics for this sort of thing, as they are impossible to get if you are not Blizzard themselves, and they don't give numbers. Everything else is speculation, and I would definitely call you wrong as Nightbane is not at all difficult. You haven't supported your statement either, "I believe" does not count.

    Blizzard has admitted in their WLK threads that less than one percent of WoW players have done BT. The only reason I haven't gotten the link is that I can't access the WoW forums on my current computer.
    piL wrote: »
    Here's a study someone did in 2006...

    The people you are failing to include in your argument are the players that would have continued to play, and thus continue to pay their $15/mo, if only they hadn't become frustrated by the requirement to raid at high level and thus decided to move on to another game. Or maybe they got frustrated by the raid drama, or the strict raiding schedule. The end result is the same: people quitting.

    I'm not saying to eliminate raids altogether, but they can NOT be the primary focus for endgame content.

    delroland on
    EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
    "Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
  • Options
    GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    delroland wrote: »
    Mgcw wrote: »
    There are no hard statistics for this sort of thing, as they are impossible to get if you are not Blizzard themselves, and they don't give numbers. Everything else is speculation, and I would definitely call you wrong as Nightbane is not at all difficult. You haven't supported your statement either, "I believe" does not count.

    Blizzard has admitted in their WLK threads that less than one percent of WoW players have done BT. The only reason I haven't gotten the link is that I can't access the WoW forums on my current computer.
    piL wrote: »
    Here's a study someone did in 2006...

    The people you are failing to include in your argument are the players that would have continued to play, and thus continue to pay their $15/mo, if only they hadn't become frustrated by the requirement to raid at high level and thus decided to move on to another game. Or maybe they got frustrated by the raid drama, or the strict raiding schedule. The end result is the same: people quitting.

    I'm not saying to eliminate raids altogether, but they can NOT be the primary focus for endgame content.

    Why not? It's worked out rather well for Blizzard so far.

    Garthor on
  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    delroland wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Rare deed drops from raid bosses, which actually then CAN be placed anywhere in the world and become permanent?

    Fuck.

    That.

    If they do this, I am going to form a guild specifically dedicated to camping outside these people's houses and kill them whenever they try to enter or leave. We'll call ourselves <Salt the Earth>.

    I know I've said it several times before, but raid players = minority. So why cater to them?

    Hell, I'd support bringing this in just so I can join that guild.

    That would be awesome.

    Dhalphir on
  • Options
    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    According to Wowjutsu there's around 2 million characters in the US and EU that have loot from a BC raid. Assuming half of those are alts, you get 1 million people. If you divide this into the worldwide subscription numbers, you get just over 10%. Of course, the actual percent is higher since we'd need the US+EU subscription numbers rather than worldwide, but there you go, proof that raiders are a relatively large percent of the game base.

    Opty on
  • Options
    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The 90% of the population that doesn't have loot from a BC raid seems just a tad bit larger, though.

    reVerse on
  • Options
    SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    Kalkino wrote: »
    It has to be instanced for WOW - the scale wouldn't work otherwise. It would only take 5-10 minutes to walk across a zone I suspect, how could you fit housing in that, without it looking silly and crowded? By comparison it used to take me an hour to walk across the farm I grew up on, and that was about 800 acres in size.

    Yeah, but farms are incredible inefficient at housing people. If I walked for an hour across Edinburgh, I'd probably cover enough distance to house about half of the city's population.

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • Options
    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Opty wrote: »
    According to Wowjutsu there's around 2 million characters in the US and EU that have loot from a BC raid. Assuming half of those are alts, you get 1 million people.
    You think raiders only have one alt? I bet 1 million of those are just Jaef's characters.

    Glal on
  • Options
    SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    Glal hates gamer minorities.

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • Options
    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    They steal honest carebears' crafting jobs!

    Glal on
  • Options
    piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I also like how the solution to problems with supporting what is supposedly a minority, but is actually a rather large group and (again) serves as the goal for many of the other player that aren't that "minority" is griefing.

    piL on
  • Options
    KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Kalkino wrote: »
    It has to be instanced for WOW - the scale wouldn't work otherwise. It would only take 5-10 minutes to walk across a zone I suspect, how could you fit housing in that, without it looking silly and crowded? By comparison it used to take me an hour to walk across the farm I grew up on, and that was about 800 acres in size.

    Yeah, but farms are incredible inefficient at housing people. If I walked for an hour across Edinburgh, I'd probably cover enough distance to house about half of the city's population.

    Sure, if they designed housing to be tightly packed into a city it might work. But where would they do that? Would they build new zones next to the cities? You'd need a Town Planning Department. Man that would be awesome! First you farm the gold/mats/raid instance, then you get together 25 friends and queue up outside the new "Town Hall Instance" where you must fight your way through a succession of bosses, starting with the lovable Number Machine and ending with the Mayor. Assuming you get in, it is a rare spawn afterall.

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Options
    piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Kalkino wrote: »
    Kalkino wrote: »
    It has to be instanced for WOW - the scale wouldn't work otherwise. It would only take 5-10 minutes to walk across a zone I suspect, how could you fit housing in that, without it looking silly and crowded? By comparison it used to take me an hour to walk across the farm I grew up on, and that was about 800 acres in size.

    Yeah, but farms are incredible inefficient at housing people. If I walked for an hour across Edinburgh, I'd probably cover enough distance to house about half of the city's population.

    Sure, if they designed housing to be tightly packed into a city it might work. But where would they do that? Would they build new zones next to the cities? You'd need a Town Planning Department. Man that would be awesome! First you farm the gold/mats/raid instance, then you get together 25 friends and queue up outside the new "Town Hall Instance" where you must fight your way through a succession of bosses, starting with the lovable Number Machine and ending with the Mayor. Assuming you get in, it is a rare spawn afterall.

    There needs to be a metaphor MMO.

    piL on
  • Options
    TurnpikeLadTurnpikeLad Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    All of this discussion and nobody's mentioned Darkfall? I know that for some reason people like to make fun of it but really they're almost done with it and it's going to be amazing. It's like an unholy child of Shadowbane and old Horizons.

    They let a journalist in a month or two ago and let him play around in a year-old stable version. Here's his writeup.

    http://www.lordsofdeath.com/www/?p=12

    TurnpikeLad on
  • Options
    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Man, did that guy ever get the PR spinaround done on him.

    All I really get from that review is "it's pretty," "it's realistic" and "there will be pretty much unrestricted pvp."

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • Options
    TurnpikeLadTurnpikeLad Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I think it's more a matter of the poor guy not knowing how to convey a fricking piece of information clearly.

    I'll try to do a better job. Darkfall is based on the idea that the player should be free to do whathever they want. The game has unlimited PvP, full loot, player settlements, almost exclusively player-crafted equipment, tactical FPS-style combat with no targeting, friendly fire, ship-to-ship and mounted combat. There's a gigantic gameworld. The fanbase is rabid like that of Shadowbane in '99. It's not my ideal game, because that game includes permanent death and is called Trials of Ascension, but it's got the important distinction of being almost finished and fully staffed.

    TurnpikeLad on
  • Options
    AphostileAphostile San Francisco, CARegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Man, I would play a Harvest Moon MMO so HARD.

    But I'm sure they'd have to include some jackass thief who would come steal my carrots...

    Until I shoot his face off with my sawed off shotgun and use his remains to fertilize my crops. Sweet, pvp AND crafting.

    Aphostile on
    Nothing. Matters.
  • Options
    ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    This thread makes me want to play regular MMO's again. Then I remember that this thread details what modern MMO's lack, and I die a little inside.


    Oh well, back to EvE I guess.

    Zzulu on
    t5qfc9.jpg
  • Options
    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I'll try to do a better job. Darkfall is based on the idea that the player should be free to do whathever they want. The game has unlimited PvP, full loot, player settlements, almost exclusively player-crafted equipment, tactical FPS-style combat with no targeting, friendly fire, ship-to-ship and mounted combat.
    So how exactly do crafting and economy work? "If you can't fight then dig the ditches!" is fine and dandy, if components magically appear inside player-safe cities... but given the game's rar-realistic stance, I doubt it works that way.

    Glal on
  • Options
    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    The problem with Darkfall's premise is that it takes an awful long time for people to rise above the inherent impulse toward anarchism. And when people are free to go "you know what fuck this" and stop paying the monthly fee, it's unlikely to ever happen.

    I see what they're trying to do, but I don't think the "creators-come-janitors" EVE model will ever appeal to more than a niche audience, without more structural support than they seem inclined to offer.

    That, and I don't think anyone has ever done the "tactical combat without targeting" thing well when the combat involved weapons that were not guns.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • Options
    TurnpikeLadTurnpikeLad Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Dyscord wrote: »
    The problem with Darkfall's premise is that it takes an awful long time for people to rise above the inherent impulse toward anarchism. And when people are free to go "you know what fuck this" and stop paying the monthly fee, it's unlikely to ever happen.

    I see what they're trying to do, but I don't think the "creators-come-janitors" EVE model will ever appeal to more than a niche audience, without more structural support than they seem inclined to offer.

    A niche audience these days is in the hundreds of thousands of users. But beyond that, this is the kind of model that many people have been waiting for for years. A good portion of people in this thread have expressed yearning for a game just like this. Just read the OP.
    Just like everyone else in the MMORPG community I have been waiting for that next revolutionary mmorpg that was like UO and Everquest back in the day but I am starting to think it will never happen. Is it even possible to create this dream universe that we all envision where there is full PK anywhere with out it being anarchy? Where the combat system is not the same one that has been used for the past 10 years. Yes, the combat systems are much better but still nothing new from scratch. Right now the best thing we have is WoW which just combined all the good things from other games into one.

    Am I the only one that imagines a world were governments are formed just from real people and maintain order in the world keeping Pkers from running crazy? The end of useless drops that are to sell for money, I blame everquest for that. So do you guys think this is as good as it is going to get?

    How is Darkfall not the game this guy is talking about?

    Darkfall is the opposite of "single-player games only online." Your experience depends on other people's actions to the point where you may not have a good time if others don't play along. This is what developers have been shying away from for the past ten years and this is what MMOs need nowadays.
    That, and I don't think anyone has ever done the "tactical combat without targeting" thing well when the combat involved weapons that were not guns.

    Except for Mount and Blade. And many people in this thread have expressed a wish for this exact kind of combat. Age of Conan is doing something similar as well.

    TurnpikeLad on
  • Options
    PoketpixiePoketpixie Siege Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Glal wrote: »
    I'll try to do a better job. Darkfall is based on the idea that the player should be free to do whathever they want. The game has unlimited PvP, full loot, player settlements, almost exclusively player-crafted equipment, tactical FPS-style combat with no targeting, friendly fire, ship-to-ship and mounted combat.
    So how exactly do crafting and economy work? "If you can't fight then dig the ditches!" is fine and dandy, if components magically appear inside player-safe cities... but given the game's rar-realistic stance, I doubt it works that way.

    I would suppose it'll work very similar to UO....people loot crap gear off monsters and make do until the crafters are up to speed. Then players gear up in their nice, shiny armor and wander out into the world like sheep only to inevitably get slaughtered...and that's how the pks gear up.

    Am I the only one that imagines a world were governments are formed just from real people and maintain order in the world keeping Pkers from running crazy?

    This only works when people actually give a crap about maintaining order. Doing so is a lot of work and often a thankless job and quite frankly, that's not how a lot of people want to spend their gaming time. Unless there is damn good incentive to be the good guys and police the gameworld...people are going to go the easy and extremely profitable route of being the bad guys.

    Poketpixie on
  • Options
    TurnpikeLadTurnpikeLad Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Poketpixie wrote: »
    Am I the only one that imagines a world were governments are formed just from real people and maintain order in the world keeping Pkers from running crazy?

    This only works when people actually give a crap about maintaining order. Doing so is a lot of work and often a thankless job and quite frankly, that's not how a lot of people want to spend their gaming time. Unless there is damn good incentive to be the good guys and police the gameworld...people are going to go the easy and extremely profitable route of being the bad guys.

    Of course this will happen. But the question is, what happens _after_ this. In EvE, the major corporations are all "bad guys" - existing in 0.0 space, engaged in constant strategic and economic warfare, pledged each to the others' destruction. The more powerful the "bad guys" get, the more they approximate military organizations. There is room within these organizations for crafters, explorers, farmers, etcetera - they're necessary. The difference is, now you answer to the organization. Now the world is made up of titanic "bad guys" or- as we euphemistically call them- political states.

    In a world of aggressive nations fighting for territory, the life of the solitary PKer or band of PKers is tough. Threaten somebody's interests and they will retaliate. No good guys or selfless paladins here. The rule of law is necessary to wield the military force that's needed to keep from getting conquered.

    TurnpikeLad on
  • Options
    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Except that isn't really true, because in MMOs there's usually always room to set up a new nation. Also, there's no geneva convention for MMOs, and it doesn't really matter if you're getting ganked by 'random PKers' or the opposition forces.

    Maybe fighting as a soldier in an MMO war is fun, and worth paying money for. Being a civiilian and getting blown up by MMO terrorists isn't very much fun.

    Also, EVE's lucky in that, at least with GS, a large pre-formed group moved in. They didn't just spring up spontaneously, they had a previous support structure and values to draw on. GS is cool, but they're also not the norm, and they certainly aren't substantial enough to prevent basically whoever wants to from coming into 'their' space and ganking people.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • Options
    KlatuKlatu Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi OiRegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I'm only on the second page at the moment (will continue reading the rest of the thread after this) but I just wanted to comment quickly on 1DKs views on MMOs.

    I agree wholeheartedly with the UNIQUE dynamic boss mob that is as hard as hell to locate and randomly messes shit up around the world. WoW doesn't have any real uniqueness about it. The only thing that comes close to uniqueness is if you're in a premier PVE guild and get that Hammer of Badass or Robe of Sweetness... and even if you are in said uber PVE guild, you're only unique for maybe 2 months tops? before some other guy is rolling around with the same item.

    A unique boss encounter that only happens once and gives 2-3 items that people can wear with pride and say "Yeah, this is that sword I got from killing :that big bad dragon:, only one of its kind". It would mean something, to the game and to that person.

    Of course there is the potential that certain guilds could "farm" the unique mobs, but you can't control that and even if you did, it's not exactly right to do so, if they want to spend time online searching around for the dragons lair, let them, it's part of their MMO experience.

    Klatu on
    Steam id:Klatu - PS id: Klatu_PA - 3DS FC: 0920-0528-6680
  • Options
    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Poketpixie wrote: »
    Glal wrote: »
    I'll try to do a better job. Darkfall is based on the idea that the player should be free to do whathever they want. The game has unlimited PvP, full loot, player settlements, almost exclusively player-crafted equipment, tactical FPS-style combat with no targeting, friendly fire, ship-to-ship and mounted combat.
    So how exactly do crafting and economy work? "If you can't fight then dig the ditches!" is fine and dandy, if components magically appear inside player-safe cities... but given the game's rar-realistic stance, I doubt it works that way.
    I would suppose it'll work very similar to UO....people loot crap gear off monsters and make do until the crafters are up to speed. Then players gear up in their nice, shiny armor and wander out into the world like sheep only to inevitably get slaughtered...and that's how the pks gear up.
    And how is getting ganked while collecting materials different from getting ganked while doing quests? If you're shit at PVP then "go craft instead!" is a piss poor alternative when it also requires PVP to actually keep what you procured.

    Glal on
  • Options
    TurnpikeLadTurnpikeLad Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Glal wrote: »
    Poketpixie wrote: »
    Glal wrote: »
    I'll try to do a better job. Darkfall is based on the idea that the player should be free to do whathever they want. The game has unlimited PvP, full loot, player settlements, almost exclusively player-crafted equipment, tactical FPS-style combat with no targeting, friendly fire, ship-to-ship and mounted combat.
    So how exactly do crafting and economy work? "If you can't fight then dig the ditches!" is fine and dandy, if components magically appear inside player-safe cities... but given the game's rar-realistic stance, I doubt it works that way.
    I would suppose it'll work very similar to UO....people loot crap gear off monsters and make do until the crafters are up to speed. Then players gear up in their nice, shiny armor and wander out into the world like sheep only to inevitably get slaughtered...and that's how the pks gear up.
    And how is getting ganked while collecting materials different from getting ganked while doing quests? If you're shit at PVP then "go craft instead!" is a piss poor alternative when it also requires PVP to actually keep what you procured.

    Let's keep this quote tree going for a bit. I can't imagine someone being a crafter in Darkfall without being part of an organization. On your own you would get killed and looted. But more importantly, if you're super-opposed to the idea that rewards should come with some kind of palpable risk and not just from time investment, then you probably won't like this game, or any of the others like it on the horizon. Why would you play a full PvP game if you're total shit at PvP?

    However. Just because it's not for you, don't think that there's no market for it. There are at least five million people in this country who play MMORPGs, and if only a tenth of those people try the game out and only half of those stay longer than a month, that's still 250,000 subscribers. Things have changed in this market in the last couple years. That's why Darkfall has a chance in hell of succeeding.

    TurnpikeLad on
  • Options
    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Not even a tenth of the people who play MMOs want to play that game, though.

    There's a reason the trend is toward games with more structure. Developing structure organically as a player takes a ton of time and effort, and most people won't pay for the pleasure of doing so.

    I mean, Darkfall might go on to be a moderately successful game, just as EVE has. But it's not going to revolutionize the market.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • Options
    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Glal wrote: »
    Poketpixie wrote: »
    Glal wrote: »
    I'll try to do a better job. Darkfall is based on the idea that the player should be free to do whathever they want. The game has unlimited PvP, full loot, player settlements, almost exclusively player-crafted equipment, tactical FPS-style combat with no targeting, friendly fire, ship-to-ship and mounted combat.
    So how exactly do crafting and economy work? "If you can't fight then dig the ditches!" is fine and dandy, if components magically appear inside player-safe cities... but given the game's rar-realistic stance, I doubt it works that way.
    I would suppose it'll work very similar to UO....people loot crap gear off monsters and make do until the crafters are up to speed. Then players gear up in their nice, shiny armor and wander out into the world like sheep only to inevitably get slaughtered...and that's how the pks gear up.
    And how is getting ganked while collecting materials different from getting ganked while doing quests? If you're shit at PVP then "go craft instead!" is a piss poor alternative when it also requires PVP to actually keep what you procured.
    Let's keep this quote tree going for a bit. I can't imagine someone being a crafter in Darkfall without being part of an organization. On your own you would get killed and looted. But more importantly, if you're super-opposed to the idea that rewards should come with some kind of palpable risk and not just from time investment, then you probably won't like this game, or any of the others like it on the horizon. Why would you play a full PvP game if you're total shit at PvP?
    It was the game's dev who implied people who suck at PVP should go craft, not me. I just questioned whether that was a realistic option.

    [edit] On the other hand, he might've just been being a dick. "However, you’d better have PvP talent or else you should craft a shovel and find work digging ditches." could be read either way.

    Glal on
  • Options
    PoketpixiePoketpixie Siege Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Glal wrote: »
    Poketpixie wrote: »
    I would suppose it'll work very similar to UO....people loot crap gear off monsters and make do until the crafters are up to speed. Then players gear up in their nice, shiny armor and wander out into the world like sheep only to inevitably get slaughtered...and that's how the pks gear up.
    And how is getting ganked while collecting materials different from getting ganked while doing quests? If you're shit at PVP then "go craft instead!" is a piss poor alternative when it also requires PVP to actually keep what you procured.

    I agree....it sucked in UO and it will suck in WoD. I won't play any game that allows other players to loot my stuff. But when you allow that to happen.....people are going to do it. In fact, the worst sort of socio-pathic excuse for a human being will be thrilled by the idea of it and they will crow how it's all about risk vs reward...nevermind the fact that the ones they're killing and looting are the ones risking the most for the least reward.

    Poketpixie on
  • Options
    SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2007
    Poketpixie wrote: »
    Glal wrote: »
    Poketpixie wrote: »
    I would suppose it'll work very similar to UO....people loot crap gear off monsters and make do until the crafters are up to speed. Then players gear up in their nice, shiny armor and wander out into the world like sheep only to inevitably get slaughtered...and that's how the pks gear up.
    And how is getting ganked while collecting materials different from getting ganked while doing quests? If you're shit at PVP then "go craft instead!" is a piss poor alternative when it also requires PVP to actually keep what you procured.

    I agree....it sucked in UO and it will suck in WoD. I won't play any game that allows other players to loot my stuff. But when you allow that to happen.....people are going to do it. In fact, the worst sort of socio-pathic excuse for a human being will be thrilled by the idea of it and they will crow how it's all about risk vs reward...nevermind the fact that the ones they're killing and looting are the ones risking the most for the least reward.

    I think the issue here is maybe the expectation/game mechanic that allows and is geared towards you carrying everything you own with you at pretty much all times. I get the impression that most MMOs are like this - if there are places to store excess items, it's generally an overflow for your main inventory that you carry on you at all times, rather than the main storage place from where you select a handful of items to take with you on a quest. I've noticed this in Tabula Rasa - there are storage boxes in the basecamps, but I'm at level 12 and have yet to actually transfer anything to storage. There's no need to use them unless I run out of room. Conversely, with EVE, I only ever undock with items that I absolutely, positively need to be carrying with me to do what ever it is I am undocking to do. Anything not directly applicable to this task is stored safely in a station until I do need it. That way, if I get my shit pushed in, I've at least minimised the impact of my losses.

    The solution to making looting acceptable is to transfer storage away from the main avatar. That way, the things you loose (either by destruction or from your corpse being looted after death) are limited so the loss, while genuinely affecting you, doesn't completely destroy the game for you.


    It's also important, if implementing particularly harsh PvP, to ensure that it is balanced. And it needs to be reasonably balanced even if it's a level 40 pker ganking noobs. Otherwise, as you suggest, the only person taking any risk is the one being victimised by the pker. That way, those who decide to take that route don't take it lightly. If there's a real risk of the gank backfiring, then they need to think carefully about it. If there's a real risk of them loosing as much as they stand to gain, then they won't pk idly.

    Take EVE, for example. There are dicks who sit on low sec gates smartbombing noob ships that pass through. One of them does this in a Mothership, so basically he's sitting there at a gate idly killing ships worth maybe 50,000 Isk in a ship with fittings that probably exceed 1 Billion Isk in total value. However, his setup is geared towards killing small, weak ships - hence the smartbombs, so he needs to be pretty careful, because a small gang of considerably cheaper ships would easily and happily kill him if he does this in the wrong system.

    So there's a trade off and a natural balance. You can't build an indestructible killing machine, no matter what level you get to or how much money you have, so you can't ever end up with an unstoppable griefer running around instakilling everybody.

    I like the fact that there are rewards for PvP. The sterile PvP in other MMOs where it's all done within arenas doesn't interest me. But then neither does the idea of an MMO where some asshole can just run around FODing everybody and anybody because the game mechanics allow you to build or grind an unbalanced PvP character due to character development and item leveling being PvE focused. For this reason, PvP needs to be properly incorporated into the game mechanics where PvP and PvE are both considered during balancing and testing, rather than focusing on designing items and skills for tackling ever-harder PvE encounters and then just letting the players run amock with their MWDs in open-PvP.

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • Options
    piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Glal wrote: »
    Glal wrote: »
    Poketpixie wrote: »
    Glal wrote: »
    I'll try to do a better job. Darkfall is based on the idea that the player should be free to do whathever they want. The game has unlimited PvP, full loot, player settlements, almost exclusively player-crafted equipment, tactical FPS-style combat with no targeting, friendly fire, ship-to-ship and mounted combat.
    So how exactly do crafting and economy work? "If you can't fight then dig the ditches!" is fine and dandy, if components magically appear inside player-safe cities... but given the game's rar-realistic stance, I doubt it works that way.
    I would suppose it'll work very similar to UO....people loot crap gear off monsters and make do until the crafters are up to speed. Then players gear up in their nice, shiny armor and wander out into the world like sheep only to inevitably get slaughtered...and that's how the pks gear up.
    And how is getting ganked while collecting materials different from getting ganked while doing quests? If you're shit at PVP then "go craft instead!" is a piss poor alternative when it also requires PVP to actually keep what you procured.
    Let's keep this quote tree going for a bit. I can't imagine someone being a crafter in Darkfall without being part of an organization. On your own you would get killed and looted. But more importantly, if you're super-opposed to the idea that rewards should come with some kind of palpable risk and not just from time investment, then you probably won't like this game, or any of the others like it on the horizon. Why would you play a full PvP game if you're total shit at PvP?
    It was the game's dev who implied people who suck at PVP should go craft, not me. I just questioned whether that was a realistic option.

    [edit] On the other hand, he might've just been being a dick. "However, you’d better have PvP talent or else you should craft a shovel and find work digging ditches." could be read either way.

    The implication might be that you can still contribute to an effort. Have your friends protect you/get you mats, and then you make it because they don't want to take the time to l2craft, or the actual work involved (just like the non-pvper doesn't care to learn to pvp). The idea being that it takes both in tandem. I guess. I don't really know, I haven't been looking at Darkfall.

    piL on
  • Options
    PoketpixiePoketpixie Siege Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I don't care for arenas or WoW's battleground system either. It actively discourages world pvp and tries to channel everyone into battlegrounds...and then channels players into achieving the objectives there. It's less about fighting than it is about grinding honor now. I don't care for unrestricted pvp either. I don't want to give up my stuff to some jerk just looking to ruin someone else's day. Looting by proxy would be ok with me.....if someone kills me they can loot a token or randomly generated loot...but not the items I'm carrying.

    I'm absolutely tired of PvP systems that are tacked on as an afterthought and I don't think any of the current MMOs have got it quite right yet. I think PvP needs to be voluntary and yet extremely deep and involved at the same time. I want PvP as an endgame.....with the PvE being the tutorial/introduction to the game or something you do to take a break from the intensity of PvP. I don't think it should be punitive on an individual level. It's supposed to be fun and it should be absolutely huge.

    Poketpixie on
  • Options
    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I personally hate PvP, as cooperation has always been more fun to me than competition, but I am curious as to whether you have played DAoC, pocketpixie. What did you think of the PvP in that game?

    delroland on
    EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
    "Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Sign In or Register to comment.