I still don't see why it would be necessary. It wouldn't stack with sunder/expose and it's hardly a difficult time soloing as ret.
You could argue it's a bonus to having a paladin tank as opposed to a warrior (sunder) or a druid (ff), but you can already judge wisdom/light and if you wanted to spend the 3 points you could give your entire party/raid +3% crit with imp crusader.
Rami on
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I still don't see why it would be necessary. It wouldn't stack with sunder/expose and it's hardly a difficult time soloing as ret.
The only reason it wouldn't stack, is if Blizz intentionally did that. I would certainly advocate that it stack with with sunder, just curse of recklessness does.
Sunder and Expose don't stack, presumably because they're both physical. I can't remember if Vin is a magic effort, but either way there are already two magic armour reducing effects. There's also that survival hunter armour reducing proc.
There's a lot of armour reduction about these days, taking an extra 15% off a raid boss is going to equate to a huge dps increase over an 8-10 minute fight, there's the question of making things too easy.
Rami on
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These are just details that Blizz should be able to figure out. The important point is that vindication ought to have a pve buff that doesn't improve it for pvp. Armor reduction could work(maybe not 15%).
well you bring enough enh shaman so your melee group and tank group have WF (which may only be 1 shaman)
you bring 2-3 ferals if you have regular feral OTs and/or for tank heavy encounters
Maybe you bring as many as 2 ferals, if you're trying to prepare for heavy tanking, but this depends heavily on the tanking need. But one enhancement shammy is probably enough, in the top melee dps team.
There's only room for 2.5 of each class. When you're trying to use at least one of those slots if not two, on the more "primary" specs like resto or prot, that doesn't leave a lot of room for off-specs.
That many tanks are rarely needed as far as I've seen. You get a prot pally and a prot warrior as the two primary tanks(yes one of them is somewhat useless when there's one thing to tank, but prot pallies are just that awesome that it's worth it). Then you get a feral druid and a dps warrior as your third and fourth off-tanks. I think that would cover you in the vast majority of cases. Then you get one ret pally and one holy pally and you've already got 3 paladins which is plenty for a raid. I mean, with three pallies and three druids, you're already shafting two other classes of one member each.
We have 1 ench shaman to go in our melee group (4 rogues), we have 0 elemental shaman, 0 ret paladins, 0 prot paladins. We do have one druid that goes between Boomkin/tree depending on whether an additional healer is needed.
We do have 3 feral druids however, all used for tanking (they wouldn't take them for dps, they only do dps on one tank fights like Morogrim). Usually only two feral druids attend the raid though. We only bring two warriors as well.
Unfortunatly class balance decisions lie with the classleaders, and the paladin class leader just won't accept ret/prot as raiders. My main is a rogue but I quit raiding 2 weeks ago (after we downed Vashj) because I have a lot of work at uni now. I now play my Pally most of the time, once I've geared up a bit I'll be signing up for off-raid day stuff (ie, Karazahn). As you'd probably expect, Kara runs for us these days consist largely of alts and guests (guest = friend of a raider, they're allowed in the guild but aren't taken to raids unless there's an extreme player shortage that night).
When WOTLK comes out I might even make my pally my new main, providing I can convince them tankadins are awesome.
Rami on
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Good for tankin Kara? And how far from ZA? I realize that the shield is terrible, but I haven't had any luck, so I'm going to snag the badge reward or Sha'tar rep shield, but aside from that, Close to tankin' Kara?
Edit: Also, those bad gems are temporary. At least the ones in the epics.
You're a good way from uncrushable yet, which means MTing is probably not a great idea, but you're very well set to OT. Gotta get that block rating up.
Actually, I have a couple questions about that.
Is base miss chance factored into being uncrushable? And if so is it the same 5% or not?
And does the "Decreases chance to be hit" factor in? Since with both of those I'm sitting at about 99.7% avoidance (With Kings for that whopping .4 dodge)
I think it's because they don't see what a paladin tank does that a warrior can't. Warriors get more hp, more neat tricks (last stand, shield wall etc) and it's far, far easier to become uncrushable thanks to shield block.
Druids at least get more hp and armour, which may be more useful than avoidance in some situations.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
Good for tankin Kara? And how far from ZA? I realize that the shield is terrible, but I haven't had any luck, so I'm going to snag the badge reward or Sha'tar rep shield, but aside from that, Close to tankin' Kara?
Edit: Also, those bad gems are temporary. At least the ones in the epics.
You're a good way from uncrushable yet, which means MTing is probably not a great idea, but you're very well set to OT. Gotta get that block rating up.
Actually, I have a couple questions about that.
Is base miss chance factored into being uncrushable? And if so is it the same 5% or not?
And does the "Decreases chance to be hit" factor in? Since with both of those I'm sitting at about 99.7% avoidance (With Kings for that whopping .4 dodge)
5% base miss + "Decreases chance to be hit" (a.k.a. "increases chance to be missed") + dodge + parry + block = total uncrushability percentage.
I think it's because they don't see what a paladin tank does that a warrior can't. Warriors get more hp, more neat tricks (last stand, shield wall etc) and it's far, far easier to become uncrushable thanks to shield block.
Druids at least get more hp and armour, which may be more useful than avoidance in some situations.
Good for tankin Kara? And how far from ZA? I realize that the shield is terrible, but I haven't had any luck, so I'm going to snag the badge reward or Sha'tar rep shield, but aside from that, Close to tankin' Kara?
Edit: Also, those bad gems are temporary. At least the ones in the epics.
You're a good way from uncrushable yet, which means MTing is probably not a great idea, but you're very well set to OT. Gotta get that block rating up.
Actually, I have a couple questions about that.
Is base miss chance factored into being uncrushable? And if so is it the same 5% or not?
And does the "Decreases chance to be hit" factor in? Since with both of those I'm sitting at about 99.7% avoidance (With Kings for that whopping .4 dodge)
5% base miss + "Decreases chance to be hit" (a.k.a. "increases chance to be missed") + dodge + parry + block = total uncrushability percentage.
Sweet. Just need 2.3% mitigation then. Then comes the stam stacking. Then in the off-chance I go to T6 on my Paladin, comes avoidance tanking.
Hm good point, with the extra 6% A paladin will eventually over take warriors, but their base hp is much higher so it will take a while until the gear reaches the point where that +6% makes up the difference, and even though it's going to be small.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
Good for tankin Kara? And how far from ZA? I realize that the shield is terrible, but I haven't had any luck, so I'm going to snag the badge reward or Sha'tar rep shield, but aside from that, Close to tankin' Kara?
Edit: Also, those bad gems are temporary. At least the ones in the epics.
You're a good way from uncrushable yet, which means MTing is probably not a great idea, but you're very well set to OT. Gotta get that block rating up.
Actually, I have a couple questions about that.
Is base miss chance factored into being uncrushable? And if so is it the same 5% or not?
And does the "Decreases chance to be hit" factor in? Since with both of those I'm sitting at about 99.7% avoidance (With Kings for that whopping .4 dodge)
5% base miss + "Decreases chance to be hit" (a.k.a. "increases chance to be missed") + dodge + parry + block = total uncrushability percentage.
WHOA WHOA WHOA.
So your total avoidance is "Chance to miss" from def + Block + Dodge + Parry + 5?
Because if so then I am WAY over the uncrushable cap. Whoops.
Salvation122 on
0
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Good for tankin Kara? And how far from ZA? I realize that the shield is terrible, but I haven't had any luck, so I'm going to snag the badge reward or Sha'tar rep shield, but aside from that, Close to tankin' Kara?
Edit: Also, those bad gems are temporary. At least the ones in the epics.
You're a good way from uncrushable yet, which means MTing is probably not a great idea, but you're very well set to OT. Gotta get that block rating up.
Actually, I have a couple questions about that.
Is base miss chance factored into being uncrushable? And if so is it the same 5% or not?
And does the "Decreases chance to be hit" factor in? Since with both of those I'm sitting at about 99.7% avoidance (With Kings for that whopping .4 dodge)
5% base miss + "Decreases chance to be hit" (a.k.a. "increases chance to be missed") + dodge + parry + block = total uncrushability percentage.
WHOA WHOA WHOA.
So your total avoidance is "Chance to miss" from def + Block + Dodge + Parry + 5?
Because if so then I am WAY over the uncrushable cap. Whoops.
Yep. And once you get over it, you'll find gear keeps pushing you upwards. When I got my gloves the other night it gave me 109.4% avoidance. So I'm going to say good bye to my pocketwatch and go double stamina trinkets when the faire gets here.
Thomamelas on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Good for tankin Kara? And how far from ZA? I realize that the shield is terrible, but I haven't had any luck, so I'm going to snag the badge reward or Sha'tar rep shield, but aside from that, Close to tankin' Kara?
Edit: Also, those bad gems are temporary. At least the ones in the epics.
You're a good way from uncrushable yet, which means MTing is probably not a great idea, but you're very well set to OT. Gotta get that block rating up.
Actually, I have a couple questions about that.
Is base miss chance factored into being uncrushable? And if so is it the same 5% or not?
And does the "Decreases chance to be hit" factor in? Since with both of those I'm sitting at about 99.7% avoidance (With Kings for that whopping .4 dodge)
5% base miss + "Decreases chance to be hit" (a.k.a. "increases chance to be missed") + dodge + parry + block = total uncrushability percentage.
WHOA WHOA WHOA.
So your total avoidance is "Chance to miss" from def + Block + Dodge + Parry + 5?
Because if so then I am WAY over the uncrushable cap. Whoops.
Yep. And once you get over it, you'll find gear keeps pushing you upwards. When I got my gloves the other night it gave me 109.4% avoidance. So I'm going to say good bye to my pocketwatch and go double stamina trinkets when the faire gets here.
Salvation weren't you talking about getting crushed in Kara before?
Dhalphir on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Salvation weren't you talking about getting crushed in Kara before?
Aye, but that was in the context of getting raped by the HS seam.
It was also a while ago. My gear's improved rather a lot since then.
Warriors have a much larger seam in that Shield Block only lasts for two hits, and then they have to burn a GCD to keep it up, so it's harder for them.
Salvation122 on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Salvation weren't you talking about getting crushed in Kara before?
Aye, but that was in the context of getting raped by the HS seam.
do warriors have a similar seam?
Kinda, yes, no, maybe. Shield block lasts longer then it's cooldown. But it has less charges. So unless a parry thrash hits a seam for a paladin it's no biggie. And odds of that are slim. A parry thrash for a warrior is bad news.
Thomamelas on
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
Salvation weren't you talking about getting crushed in Kara before?
Aye, but that was in the context of getting raped by the HS seam.
It was also a while ago. My gear's improved rather a lot since then.
Warriors have a much larger seam in that Shield Block only lasts for two hits, and then they have to burn a GCD to keep it up, so it's harder for them.
Shield block doesn't take up the gcd but it has a 5s cd with up to two charges.
Kinda, yes, no, maybe. Shield block lasts longer then it's cooldown. But it has less charges. So unless a parry thrash hits a seam for a paladin it's no biggie. And odds of that are slim. A parry thrash for a warrior is bad news.
also shield block lasts as long as its cooldown
edit: The conclusions aren't wrong, even normal mobs affected by improved thunderclap will eventually land 3 normal attacks through a single shield block phase without parries.
kaleedity on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2008
So I assume its very important to drop Reckoning once you start tanking crushing bosses?
Not vitally. The HS seam is exceptionally small assuming you don't mess up your GCD management and your lag isn't stupid-huge. Prince is a special case in that he swings retardedly fast in Phase 2, which significantly increases the chance of him crushing.
Getting crushed three times is still in the seam is unlikely as hell. I'm just unlucky.
Posts
Which is why you make it only affect mobs.
You could argue it's a bonus to having a paladin tank as opposed to a warrior (sunder) or a druid (ff), but you can already judge wisdom/light and if you wanted to spend the 3 points you could give your entire party/raid +3% crit with imp crusader.
The only reason it wouldn't stack, is if Blizz intentionally did that. I would certainly advocate that it stack with with sunder, just curse of recklessness does.
There's a lot of armour reduction about these days, taking an extra 15% off a raid boss is going to equate to a huge dps increase over an 8-10 minute fight, there's the question of making things too easy.
Magicalicious.
eh
eh
Honestly, is there any reason to bring two feral druids? Two enhancement or elemental shammies or balance druids?
Shadow priest is probably the only "off-spec" that is always awesome to have more than one of.
you bring 2-3 ferals if you have regular feral OTs and/or for tank heavy encounters
Maybe you bring as many as 2 ferals, if you're trying to prepare for heavy tanking, but this depends heavily on the tanking need. But one enhancement shammy is probably enough, in the top melee dps team.
There's only room for 2.5 of each class. When you're trying to use at least one of those slots if not two, on the more "primary" specs like resto or prot, that doesn't leave a lot of room for off-specs.
and our raid is pretty melee heavy, so we could justify 2 enh shaman if we had a second
It seems to reduce the mobs total health by a fair bit (ie, attacks that took off, say 6% of their health now take off 10%.)
We have 1 ench shaman to go in our melee group (4 rogues), we have 0 elemental shaman, 0 ret paladins, 0 prot paladins. We do have one druid that goes between Boomkin/tree depending on whether an additional healer is needed.
We do have 3 feral druids however, all used for tanking (they wouldn't take them for dps, they only do dps on one tank fights like Morogrim). Usually only two feral druids attend the raid though. We only bring two warriors as well.
Unfortunatly class balance decisions lie with the classleaders, and the paladin class leader just won't accept ret/prot as raiders. My main is a rogue but I quit raiding 2 weeks ago (after we downed Vashj) because I have a lot of work at uni now. I now play my Pally most of the time, once I've geared up a bit I'll be signing up for off-raid day stuff (ie, Karazahn). As you'd probably expect, Kara runs for us these days consist largely of alts and guests (guest = friend of a raider, they're allowed in the guild but aren't taken to raids unless there's an extreme player shortage that night).
When WOTLK comes out I might even make my pally my new main, providing I can convince them tankadins are awesome.
Groundhog Day is nearly upon us, after all.
Actually, I have a couple questions about that.
Is base miss chance factored into being uncrushable? And if so is it the same 5% or not?
And does the "Decreases chance to be hit" factor in? Since with both of those I'm sitting at about 99.7% avoidance (With Kings for that whopping .4 dodge)
Druids at least get more hp and armour, which may be more useful than avoidance in some situations.
5% base miss + "Decreases chance to be hit" (a.k.a. "increases chance to be missed") + dodge + parry + block = total uncrushability percentage.
Combat Expertise. Our stamina-to-health scales better.
Warriors DON'T get more HP.
Sweet. Just need 2.3% mitigation then. Then comes the stam stacking. Then in the off-chance I go to T6 on my Paladin, comes avoidance tanking.
So your total avoidance is "Chance to miss" from def + Block + Dodge + Parry + 5?
Because if so then I am WAY over the uncrushable cap. Whoops.
Yep. And once you get over it, you'll find gear keeps pushing you upwards. When I got my gloves the other night it gave me 109.4% avoidance. So I'm going to say good bye to my pocketwatch and go double stamina trinkets when the faire gets here.
Salvation weren't you talking about getting crushed in Kara before?
Aye, but that was in the context of getting raped by the HS seam.
do warriors have a similar seam?
It was also a while ago. My gear's improved rather a lot since then.
Warriors have a much larger seam in that Shield Block only lasts for two hits, and then they have to burn a GCD to keep it up, so it's harder for them.
Kinda, yes, no, maybe. Shield block lasts longer then it's cooldown. But it has less charges. So unless a parry thrash hits a seam for a paladin it's no biggie. And odds of that are slim. A parry thrash for a warrior is bad news.
Shield block doesn't take up the gcd but it has a 5s cd with up to two charges.
also shield block lasts as long as its cooldown
edit: The conclusions aren't wrong, even normal mobs affected by improved thunderclap will eventually land 3 normal attacks through a single shield block phase without parries.
Getting crushed three times is still in the seam is unlikely as hell. I'm just unlucky.
I basically have to tank regular five mans in my holy gear