I don't see how anyone would think they were entitled to a proc. I ordered 100 sandwiches from a catering place for a fundraising dinner last week, turns out someone made a mistake and made an extra tray, so when the guy came to deliver them they had 150. Did I expect him to give me the extra 50 sandwiches for free just because I provided the cash to pay the people to make the first 100?
I don't see how anyone would think they were entitled to a proc. I ordered 100 sandwiches from a catering place for a fundraising dinner last week, turns out someone made a mistake and made an extra tray, so when the guy came to deliver them they had 150. Did I expect him to give me the extra 50 sandwiches for free just because I provided the cash to pay the people to make the first 100?
This analogy sucks unless you're talking about a random stranger like in the OP. Did you know the catering place had a decent chance to proc extra sandwiches for you? Is the catering place supposed to be your friend?
Basically, I think Alchemy is in many ways a sucky tradeskill, for the end game at least. Not only does it provide no self-only gameplay benefit beyond the alchemist's stone which isn't very good except for raid healers and pvp, but I don't even make money off of my recipes with the exception of flasks which have a terribly low discovery rate.
So basically, when the sole way I make money is through procs(since selling a crafted pot of elixir is usually a loss on the AH), I kind of want to keep those procs.
Basically, I think Alchemy is in many ways a sucky tradeskill, for the end game at least. Not only does it provide no self-only gameplay benefit beyond the alchemist's stone which isn't very good except for raid healers and pvp, but I don't even make money off of my recipes with the exception of flasks which have a terribly low discovery rate.
So basically, when the sole way I make money is through procs(since selling a crafted pot of elixir is usually a loss on the AH), I kind of want to keep those procs.
Then keep the procs from herbs you yourself pick or buy (the self-benefit you were talking about tailor/smiths getting) or ones that people who are not your friends give you to make potions. If I know someone, who is my friend, that has potion/elixir spec I damn well expect them to give me the procs, because if not I will go to someone who will.
As an elixir alchemist I get to escape this problem. For guildies I always give them all the procs, partially because I'm motherfucking rich and so giving them 5 extra Elixirs doesn't hurt me in the least. For transmutes, though, I could see you wanting to keep them, especially if you were poor. And if being poor is the case, your guildie should understand when the proc happens and you go "Yes, a proc! Mind if I keep it so I can afford to repair this week without having to farm as many dailies?" or "If you don't need an extra [whatever], could I keep the extra one(s) and sell them for my epic mount fund?" or "Well 5 procced, is it okay if I just give you 1, put one in the guild bank, and keep the rest for myself?"
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2007
General consensus regarding anything that procs: Give them the extras if they're a friend, go with your current mood if they're not.
With the exception of alchemy transmuting, I think this is pretty ok.
As an elixir alchemist I get to escape this problem. For guildies I always give them all the procs, partially because I'm motherfucking rich and so giving them 5 extra Elixirs doesn't hurt me in the least. For transmutes, though, I could see you wanting to keep them, especially if you were poor. And if being poor is the case, your guildie should understand when the proc happens and you go "Yes, a proc! Mind if I keep it so I can afford to repair this week without having to farm as many dailies?" or "If you don't need an extra [whatever], could I keep the extra one(s) and sell them for my epic mount fund?" or "Well 5 procced, is it okay if I just give you 1, put one in the guild bank, and keep the rest for myself?"
This, I agree, is fine but once again you should just be transmuting things yourself if money is such a concern. If you are pot/elixir spec it makes you a prick, no matter what, to take a friend's herbs turn them into pots and not have the decency to give them the extra ones.
It's only not taking advantage when you apply it to potions/elixirs. I don't think I'm averse to giving people the procs when it's potions/elixirs because it really is just their mats and you can make as many as you want with your own mats. With transmute, though, I get one a day regardless of if it's mine or not. If everyone starts transmuting for money, guildmates et al are going to have to pay market price for primals-- given that it's cheaper to buy the components and have someone do it for you, they are already getting a break and the person transmuting is losing their transmute.
I don't think it's a difficult concept. If it's a proc and I decide to keep it, I'm not being an asshole-- you saved some gold, and I reaped the benefits of my specialization in the sense that it's no longer like I just lost my days' transmute. When I give it away, I lose it. I really, really don't understand why this is so hard for some people to grasp.
EDIT: Also, aren't tailoring specialization procs guaranteed? Just out of curiosity.
EDIT: Also, aren't tailoring specialization procs guaranteed? Just out of curiosity.
Yes, tailors always make 2 of their specialty cloth when they transmute it, and always make 1 of the other types of specialty cloth. Of course, their transmute is on a 4-day cooldown, too.
It's only not taking advantage when you apply it to potions/elixirs. I don't think I'm averse to giving people the procs when it's potions/elixirs because it really is just their mats and you can make as many as you want with your own mats. With transmute, though, I get one a day regardless of if it's mine or not. If everyone starts transmuting for money, guildmates et al are going to have to pay market price for primals-- given that it's cheaper to buy the components and have someone do it for you, they are already getting a break and the person transmuting is losing their transmute.
I don't think it's a difficult concept. If it's a proc and I decide to keep it, I'm not being an asshole-- you saved some gold, and I reaped the benefits of my specialization in the sense that it's no longer like I just lost my days' transmute. When I give it away, I lose it. I really, really don't understand why this is so hard for some people to grasp.
EDIT: Also, aren't tailoring specialization procs guaranteed? Just out of curiosity.
I don't see the difference. If you really want to use your transmute cooldown for yourself or for profit, then do that. If you're not going to use your cooldown today anyway, it's the same as any potion/flask crafting.
edit: Also, I think we have a different concept of "friends". I'd give free procs to any one of my guildies, but my guild is fairly close knit and I generally get along with people (and I know that I could expect similar treatment from them). If I was just some person that I barely knew who happened to be one of the 300 members of my super-guild, or it was some guy that I ran an instance with once who happened to have added me to his friends list... well, I wouldn't call those people 'friends'.
There's no way I'm not going to use my cooldown on any given day. I only get one. But it is a limited commodity. This is not the case with potions/elixirs.
Once, I decided I would start doing transmutes for people asking for someone transmute specced, and charging them like 30g for it, promising they get any and all procs.
I wasn't transmute specced, see.
I stopped caring, though, because I was already filthy rich and - though I enjoy spiting people - would rather not have to interact with people in the trade chat, generally.
Once, I decided I would start doing transmutes for people asking for someone transmute specced, and charging them like 30g for it, promising they get any and all procs.
I wasn't transmute specced, see.
I stopped caring, though, because I was already filthy rich and - though I enjoy spiting people - would rather not have to interact with people in the trade chat, generally.
hahaha
hahahaha
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited November 2007
That's so awesome.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Once, I decided I would start doing transmutes for people asking for someone transmute specced, and charging them like 30g for it, promising they get any and all procs.
I wasn't transmute specced, see.
I stopped caring, though, because I was already filthy rich and - though I enjoy spiting people - would rather not have to interact with people in the trade chat, generally.
Once, I decided I would start doing transmutes for people asking for someone transmute specced, and charging them like 30g for it, promising they get any and all procs.
I wasn't transmute specced, see.
I stopped caring, though, because I was already filthy rich and - though I enjoy spiting people - would rather not have to interact with people in the trade chat, generally.
hahahahaha
You, sir, win. Alot.
a penguin on
This space eventually to be filled with excitement
I find it both despicable and hillarious at the same time.
I think I'm going to gather up a bunch of materials for healing potions, respec to potion mastery (supposedly my guild only has one of them, and I don't have any of the specialty flasks to bother going elixir master) and just accept that as with most of my transmutes, one primal to one primal will just have to be enough.
Hopefully by increasing the number of things I'm actually creating, I'll see more procs and learn some more discoveries. Unless there's an actual modifier based purely on being transmute spec, one would assume with the RNG that the more times you use it, the more likely you are to get good things from it.
Thus, using it once per day kinda sucks ass.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
What exactly is all this "discovery" nonsense? Like, as you skill up you have a chance of randomly learning something good?
Exactly.
Every time you make something, you have a tiny chance to learn to do a new transmute, or a new flask, or a potion. I think some of them can even be 'recipe learned' ones, but there are many that are "Discovery exclusive", so there are some that some characters just won't ever learn, period, based purely on the RNG.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
There's no way I'm not going to use my cooldown on any given day. I only get one. But it is a limited commodity. This is not the case with potions/elixirs.
Really, I don't see why this is so hard to grasp?
Okay. So use your cooldown for yourself, and keep your own procs?
There's no way I'm not going to use my cooldown on any given day. I only get one. But it is a limited commodity. This is not the case with potions/elixirs.
Really, I don't see why this is so hard to grasp?
That isn't hard to grasp. The confusing part is why you'd transmute something for someone else if you're still using your cooldown. When I was still making tailoring gear, and someone asked for shadowcloth for one of those melee cloaks, I did not reply because I was using my cooldown. Nowadays I don't bother using my cooldown, so if someone wanted shadowcloth for their alt's gear, I'd gladly offer mine up. If someone asks you to transmute something, you can say no, and they can find someone else who doesn't use their own cooldown every day...
If you offer yours up anyway and warn them that the conditions are you keep any procs, and they agree because they just want their item, that's cool. But be aware that the standard assumption is that procs are not kept by the crafter when the crafter is your guildmate or friend.
It's a fucking retarded assumption imo and it has the potential to very often paint people who have their hearts in the right places as assholes. It has been a month now and I have not recouped the cost of my specialization, not by far. If a friend of mine needs a transmute I have no problem with that but they should be sympathetic to my wanting to keep the proc, not clamoring about the fact that I'm obligated to give it to them.
It's a fucking retarded assumption imo and it has the potential to very often paint people who have their hearts in the right places as assholes. It has been a month now and I have not recouped the cost of my specialization, not by far. If a friend of mine needs a transmute I have no problem with that but they should be sympathetic to my wanting to keep the proc, not clamoring about the fact that I'm obligated to give it to them.
It is very easy to get someone to transmute in trade (90% of the time for free) if someone you know can't do it, not doing it for your guildmate isn't a crime if you are using it yourself.
That's odd, I have yet to meet an alchemist who uses his/her 24 hour CD transmute every single day they are logged in.
I hit 70 29 days ago and have 19 days /played at this level. I'm unemployed and am still 4000g short my epic mount.
Well I'm sure nobody would be super pissed if you said to them "look, I'm trying to make money so I'm using my cooldown every day, for me. If you don't mind me keeping all your procs then I'll do it, but you'd probably be better off going to any other alchemist you know, who will probably let you keep procs."
Like there's seriously nothing wrong with that. Like it or not, the assumption is that friends let friends keep procs, at least amongst the people I play with. I don't think it's a retarded assumption. But if these people aren't complete assbags, I'm sure they'd understand you wanting to use your profession to make money for yourself.
Like there's seriously nothing wrong with that. Like it or not, the assumption is that friends let friends keep procs
(note: I recognize that you said "amongst the people I play with, but this is the relavent point);
It's funny, but as a friend, I respect the amount of time and effort that goes into these professions. I'll admit to having utilized some cloth cooldowns of people I know at the price of 1 set of materials for 2 pieces of cloth, so let me get that little bit of hypocrisy out of the way. But in the past, I've had flasks made and let them keep the extra. I've had transmutes done, and we usually split the bonus if there are extras and they don't mind. I sometimes have to force potion spec'd friends to take spares that proc, like the time I got 17 or so elixirs off getting 10 made.
Being friends means not taking advantage of each other. On one hand, I like to think that if someone proc'd extras, they'd give me some. On the other, if I proc extras, I intend to share the wealth with them as well.
That road, imo, should travel both ways.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Like there's seriously nothing wrong with that. Like it or not, the assumption is that friends let friends keep procs
(note: I recognize that you said "amongst the people I play with, but this is the relavent point);
It's funny, but as a friend, I respect the amount of time and effort that goes into these professions. I'll admit to having utilized some cloth cooldowns of people I know at the price of 1 set of materials for 2 pieces of cloth, so let me get that little bit of hypocrisy out of the way. But in the past, I've had flasks made and let them keep the extra. I've had transmutes done, and we usually split the bonus if there are extras and they don't mind. I sometimes have to force potion spec'd friends to take spares that proc, like the time I got 17 or so elixirs off getting 10 made.
Being friends means not taking advantage of each other. On one hand, I like to think that if someone proc'd extras, they'd give me some. On the other, if I proc extras, I intend to share the wealth with them as well.
That road, imo, should travel both ways.
Well I'd give them the same courtesy if they came to me to craft something. I run heroics specifically to get people nethers. I save cloth cooldowns when I could be selling them. People ask in guild chat "is there a PM specced tailor not using their cooldown?" and I'll give them both pieces of cloth. I don't keep a logbook of every proc I've gotten and make a note to repay that in some way, but I'd like to think that I'm as generous with others as much as they are generous with me. Maybe the monetary value of the favors I do for my friends isn't exactly the same as that of the favors they do for me, but favors are returned nonetheless.
Yeah exactly. You give crafting stuff to your guildmates and they do the same for you in kind, and you hope it balances out in the end. Even I understand this and I'm generally a selfish twat. I was just telling exis last night that if someone 5x procced a flask for me I'd probably give them one. They wouldn't ever ask for it though.
That's odd, I have yet to meet an alchemist who uses his/her 24 hour CD transmute every single day they are logged in.
I use mine nearly every day, unless I forget or the timer is off enough that I need to reset it, especially if the last one was at 11pm or later. I use it mostly to convert excess earths to waters, which is nearly impossible to keep up with an alt that casually mines.
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This analogy sucks unless you're talking about a random stranger like in the OP. Did you know the catering place had a decent chance to proc extra sandwiches for you? Is the catering place supposed to be your friend?
I discovered the last one in BT where guildies laughed themselves silly on my account.
So basically, when the sole way I make money is through procs(since selling a crafted pot of elixir is usually a loss on the AH), I kind of want to keep those procs.
Then keep the procs from herbs you yourself pick or buy (the self-benefit you were talking about tailor/smiths getting) or ones that people who are not your friends give you to make potions. If I know someone, who is my friend, that has potion/elixir spec I damn well expect them to give me the procs, because if not I will go to someone who will.
EDIT: "Taking advantage of people" shouldn't be read as a pejorative here-- just a matter-of-fact thing.
By your Mats combined, I am CAPTAIN PRIMAL!
With the exception of alchemy transmuting, I think this is pretty ok.
This, I agree, is fine but once again you should just be transmuting things yourself if money is such a concern. If you are pot/elixir spec it makes you a prick, no matter what, to take a friend's herbs turn them into pots and not have the decency to give them the extra ones.
It's not taking advantage of anyone, they are free to not make potions for you.
I don't think it's a difficult concept. If it's a proc and I decide to keep it, I'm not being an asshole-- you saved some gold, and I reaped the benefits of my specialization in the sense that it's no longer like I just lost my days' transmute. When I give it away, I lose it. I really, really don't understand why this is so hard for some people to grasp.
EDIT: Also, aren't tailoring specialization procs guaranteed? Just out of curiosity.
Yes, tailors always make 2 of their specialty cloth when they transmute it, and always make 1 of the other types of specialty cloth. Of course, their transmute is on a 4-day cooldown, too.
I don't see the difference. If you really want to use your transmute cooldown for yourself or for profit, then do that. If you're not going to use your cooldown today anyway, it's the same as any potion/flask crafting.
edit: Also, I think we have a different concept of "friends". I'd give free procs to any one of my guildies, but my guild is fairly close knit and I generally get along with people (and I know that I could expect similar treatment from them). If I was just some person that I barely knew who happened to be one of the 300 members of my super-guild, or it was some guy that I ran an instance with once who happened to have added me to his friends list... well, I wouldn't call those people 'friends'.
Really, I don't see why this is so hard to grasp?
even what I was transmuting for them
there was no verbal contract, get out of my house
I wasn't transmute specced, see.
I stopped caring, though, because I was already filthy rich and - though I enjoy spiting people - would rather not have to interact with people in the trade chat, generally.
hahaha
hahahaha
MARRY ME.
LIKE.
RIGHT THE FUCK NOW.
I WILL RUN TO YOUR HOUSE.
WEARING A WEDDING DRESS
SKIPPING AND CARRYING FLOWERS
AND WE WILL BE TOGETHER FOREVER
Though Potion Mastery is proccing less these days.
hahahahaha
You, sir, win. Alot.
I find it both despicable and hillarious at the same time.
I think I'm going to gather up a bunch of materials for healing potions, respec to potion mastery (supposedly my guild only has one of them, and I don't have any of the specialty flasks to bother going elixir master) and just accept that as with most of my transmutes, one primal to one primal will just have to be enough.
Hopefully by increasing the number of things I'm actually creating, I'll see more procs and learn some more discoveries. Unless there's an actual modifier based purely on being transmute spec, one would assume with the RNG that the more times you use it, the more likely you are to get good things from it.
Thus, using it once per day kinda sucks ass.
Exactly.
Every time you make something, you have a tiny chance to learn to do a new transmute, or a new flask, or a potion. I think some of them can even be 'recipe learned' ones, but there are many that are "Discovery exclusive", so there are some that some characters just won't ever learn, period, based purely on the RNG.
Okay. So use your cooldown for yourself, and keep your own procs?
That isn't hard to grasp. The confusing part is why you'd transmute something for someone else if you're still using your cooldown. When I was still making tailoring gear, and someone asked for shadowcloth for one of those melee cloaks, I did not reply because I was using my cooldown. Nowadays I don't bother using my cooldown, so if someone wanted shadowcloth for their alt's gear, I'd gladly offer mine up. If someone asks you to transmute something, you can say no, and they can find someone else who doesn't use their own cooldown every day...
If you offer yours up anyway and warn them that the conditions are you keep any procs, and they agree because they just want their item, that's cool. But be aware that the standard assumption is that procs are not kept by the crafter when the crafter is your guildmate or friend.
It is very easy to get someone to transmute in trade (90% of the time for free) if someone you know can't do it, not doing it for your guildmate isn't a crime if you are using it yourself.
... that's... 16 hours a day?
Ob's, if you bothered with alts, you could an army that rivaled mine by the end of next year.
::high five::
Well I'm sure nobody would be super pissed if you said to them "look, I'm trying to make money so I'm using my cooldown every day, for me. If you don't mind me keeping all your procs then I'll do it, but you'd probably be better off going to any other alchemist you know, who will probably let you keep procs."
Like there's seriously nothing wrong with that. Like it or not, the assumption is that friends let friends keep procs, at least amongst the people I play with. I don't think it's a retarded assumption. But if these people aren't complete assbags, I'm sure they'd understand you wanting to use your profession to make money for yourself.
(note: I recognize that you said "amongst the people I play with, but this is the relavent point);
It's funny, but as a friend, I respect the amount of time and effort that goes into these professions. I'll admit to having utilized some cloth cooldowns of people I know at the price of 1 set of materials for 2 pieces of cloth, so let me get that little bit of hypocrisy out of the way. But in the past, I've had flasks made and let them keep the extra. I've had transmutes done, and we usually split the bonus if there are extras and they don't mind. I sometimes have to force potion spec'd friends to take spares that proc, like the time I got 17 or so elixirs off getting 10 made.
Being friends means not taking advantage of each other. On one hand, I like to think that if someone proc'd extras, they'd give me some. On the other, if I proc extras, I intend to share the wealth with them as well.
That road, imo, should travel both ways.
Well I'd give them the same courtesy if they came to me to craft something. I run heroics specifically to get people nethers. I save cloth cooldowns when I could be selling them. People ask in guild chat "is there a PM specced tailor not using their cooldown?" and I'll give them both pieces of cloth. I don't keep a logbook of every proc I've gotten and make a note to repay that in some way, but I'd like to think that I'm as generous with others as much as they are generous with me. Maybe the monetary value of the favors I do for my friends isn't exactly the same as that of the favors they do for me, but favors are returned nonetheless.
I use mine nearly every day, unless I forget or the timer is off enough that I need to reset it, especially if the last one was at 11pm or later. I use it mostly to convert excess earths to waters, which is nearly impossible to keep up with an alt that casually mines.