The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Why do you play video games -- to beat them or see them?
King Boo Hoo
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Gabe mentioned he'd discussed this before, so I'm not sure if you guys have had a thread on it. I understand if this gets deleted for being repetitive, but...
I thought Gabe's quote on motivations to play video games was really interesting:
Finding out that there are gamers who play the game to see levels is a pretty important realisation too. I'm the sort of person who complains that most of today's video games spend too much of their resources creating pretty graphics and allowing the storyline and gameplay to suffer for it. And for some reason, I just assumed most other gamers felt this way too, in the same sense that many people complain that most movie budgets are all graphics and have god-awful dialogue and characters. I won't name any examples of games I felt went down this path because all of them will lead to flame-wars. I'm more interested in hearing why the average gamer, or at least, average Penny-Arcade gamer, plays video-games.
I play to beat levels, and graphics are just a nice secondary benefit of newer generation games. It seems like Gabe plays to see new, more elaborate, and more real-looking graphics as the capacities of consoles and PC's quickly expands. For Gabe, getting stuck on a level wouldn't create a sense of thrill over a challenge as it would for me, but a sense annoyance over not getting to see more new stuff.
So why do you guys play? What does a game need for it to be a good game? What can a game lack and still be a good game?
A few people have pointed out that Gabe most likely meant experience/atmosphere over graphics:
I feel the discussion is just as (or more) interesting on this point. There's something about the concept of achievement, be it progressing through a game or leveling that keeps a lot of us playing games long after one would expect the experience to get old.
Almost every MMORPG I played is true to this. Even with equipment, spells, trade skills, exploration, in the end I'm still a healer spending 80% of my time casting the same heal spell at level 5 or 500, and one would expect to get bored of it in less than three years of constant playing. Something about that quantified sense of accomplishment keeps us going. I've heard fairly often people say "I hate this game but I cant stop playing" -- so are we addicted to leveling?
Even in games that aren't supposed to be about leveling -- first person shooters -- the concept is sneaking in increasingly, through permanent stats and ranks and such.
I was a reg on a TFC server for four years. It wasn't a serious server, more social / programmed objects server full of radios, glow effects, etc. The more you played the more points you had, the more points you had the more privileges and things you could do. Server was real popular. And then at some point the admins decided to take away the points system and grant everyone all the privileges and powers. Within a couple months the server's population dwindled and pretty much died, just because there was nothing quantitative left to show for the time put into the game-- having fun wasn't enough.
It seems like a lot of people commenting below are talking about how once they get bored of a game they stop playing, so what's keeping the rest of us so addicted to the concepts of achievements and leveling?
I thought Gabe's quote on motivations to play video games was really interesting:
Gabe wrote:I was talking to him (Tycho) about how I was getting frustrated because some of the boss battles were really giving me a hard time. I realised I don't play games for the challenge. I don't need or want to be punished by a game for making mistakes. I play games for what Ron Gilbert calls "new art". I play to see the next level or cool animation. I don't play games to beat them I play games to see them. Coming to that realisation was actually sort of important for me.
Finding out that there are gamers who play the game to see levels is a pretty important realisation too. I'm the sort of person who complains that most of today's video games spend too much of their resources creating pretty graphics and allowing the storyline and gameplay to suffer for it. And for some reason, I just assumed most other gamers felt this way too, in the same sense that many people complain that most movie budgets are all graphics and have god-awful dialogue and characters. I won't name any examples of games I felt went down this path because all of them will lead to flame-wars. I'm more interested in hearing why the average gamer, or at least, average Penny-Arcade gamer, plays video-games.
I play to beat levels, and graphics are just a nice secondary benefit of newer generation games. It seems like Gabe plays to see new, more elaborate, and more real-looking graphics as the capacities of consoles and PC's quickly expands. For Gabe, getting stuck on a level wouldn't create a sense of thrill over a challenge as it would for me, but a sense annoyance over not getting to see more new stuff.
So why do you guys play? What does a game need for it to be a good game? What can a game lack and still be a good game?
A few people have pointed out that Gabe most likely meant experience/atmosphere over graphics:
I don't think Gabe was talking about graphics, I think he was talking about overal aesthetic experience (setting, atmosphere, music, the feeling you get when you play and interact).
I feel the discussion is just as (or more) interesting on this point. There's something about the concept of achievement, be it progressing through a game or leveling that keeps a lot of us playing games long after one would expect the experience to get old.
Almost every MMORPG I played is true to this. Even with equipment, spells, trade skills, exploration, in the end I'm still a healer spending 80% of my time casting the same heal spell at level 5 or 500, and one would expect to get bored of it in less than three years of constant playing. Something about that quantified sense of accomplishment keeps us going. I've heard fairly often people say "I hate this game but I cant stop playing" -- so are we addicted to leveling?
Even in games that aren't supposed to be about leveling -- first person shooters -- the concept is sneaking in increasingly, through permanent stats and ranks and such.
I was a reg on a TFC server for four years. It wasn't a serious server, more social / programmed objects server full of radios, glow effects, etc. The more you played the more points you had, the more points you had the more privileges and things you could do. Server was real popular. And then at some point the admins decided to take away the points system and grant everyone all the privileges and powers. Within a couple months the server's population dwindled and pretty much died, just because there was nothing quantitative left to show for the time put into the game-- having fun wasn't enough.
It seems like a lot of people commenting below are talking about how once they get bored of a game they stop playing, so what's keeping the rest of us so addicted to the concepts of achievements and leveling?
King Boo Hoo on
0
Posts
just my two cents
Rich Cook.
PSN ID - WildSpoon
(I'd love to run through Ninja Gaiden, for instance, but I know I just don't have it in me. I'd get bored of trying to master it very quickly, and I hate, HATE having to replay the same stuff over and over.)
Once I realized this and stopped forcing myself to play games 'for real,' I felt less guilty about going through some games on Easy. (About half.) I just want to see the sights and take in the experience, so why not?
JRPGS and so on, I play to see. I don't care if I've gotten absolutely everything in the game, I just want to see what happens next. It's the same reason why I play FPSes at normal difficulty first time out: I could beat them at Hard, but it'll take longer, and I don't want that. I want to drink in the story and find out what happens to Master Chief. Fighting Covenant in tough battles is the frosting: it's what makes the cake delicious, but the cake, the substance behind it, is what I'm going for.
All that goes out the window in two specific genres: rhythm and puzzle games. I play these games to win. I play them to get a sense of accomplishment when I see that "S" appear on my final score. I play Ouendan so I can race my friend to see who S-ranks Ready Steady Go first. I play Tetris so that I can beat my previous high score. I play Puzzle Quest to improve my character and gain more nifties to make them even more ungodly at moving little colored stones around.
As for multiplayer games, I play them mostly to have fun. I don't usually bother trying to get super-good at them, because I rarely do. I'm there just to hang out with awesome people and drink in the experience of watching a medic bonesaw a bunch of guys to death, or a spy single-handedly defend a cap from eight enemy soldiers, or laugh at my buddy as he flings himself off of Poke Floats with a badly placed flipper.
I'm not usually into the tech end and easily forgive subpar graphics or glitchy games if the story pulls me in, the characters are rich and interesting, and the pacing and world design are engaging.
Ng Security Industries, Inc.
PRERELEASE VERSION-NOT FOR FIELD USE - DO NOT TEST IN A POPULATED AREA
-ULTIMA RATIO REGUM-
I do enjoy hard parts, but not when they're really unforgiving, and especially not when they make you watch a giant cut scene over and over and over and over.
I grew up always watching my oldest brother play the latest Final Fantasy, or Earthbound, or whichever other RPG he was playing at the time, and honestly it's almost just as satisfying as when I play them myself.
I know my fiance' feels about the same way, she even taped herself beating Kingdom Hearts 1+2 on VHS so she could watch them whenever she wanted and get her KH goodness in without all the work.
Others I play to see what the game has. HL2: Ep2 isn't really challenging, even on the hardest difficulty setting, but that's not really the reason you play it. It's just an awesomely fun game and you get to see and do a lot of interesting stuff.
Everquest may not be the best example, but I kept playing it years after I lost interest in the gameplay just because I loved exploring all of the odd nooks and crannies and talking to NPC's out in strange areas well off the beaten path. I played a Rogue, and managed to get several of the illusion masks, so I could go anywhere and talk to almost anybody. It's some of the most fun I've ever had in a video game.
With games like the Final Fantasy series, it's somewhat of a mix. I play to see new art and areas and story, and also for the combat. Some of them hold me to the end and I play to near 100% completion. Others bore me part way through and I drop it, like FF7 and 8 (heresy, I know.)
For other games, like puzzle games and FPS and Smash Bros, I play for the competition, with myself or others. To beat high scores, to do fun things, or just have a good time hopefully fragging more people than fragged me. I don't usually play to be the very best. Just good enough to represent myself well.
With tough games like Contra or Gradius (tough shooters/shmups), a lot of the reason to play it comes from seeing it to the end. From starting the game and being destroyed by the first level. But the more you play, you gradually get better at the skills of the game, and the level. Each time you start the game anew, you are slightly better, and get slightly further, opening up a new level or boss that you hadn't seen yet. When finally comes the day where, you're just good enough, you're on your last life and your last continue, on the brink of death, a hundred bullets flying in your face, and you squeeze off one shot that just manages to hit the boss and BOOM, the bastard comes crashing down. That is an awesome feeling.
I also play a lot of games for new experiences. New ways to play games and new gameplay mechanics are fun to experience.
But I also like to play games in traditional styles. I like to apply the skills that I've gained from playing the genre, and that way I don't have to go over some learning curve to get into it.
Lastly, I often find myself treating games like good books. I'll play it to experience all that there is, and then once I'm done, I'll shelve it. But I often find that, like my favorite books, every year or two I'll want to pull it out and experience it again, because I simply enjoy it that much. It's not new, but I love it.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
RPGs I play for the story. I want to be swept up in it. If I don't have a burning need to see what happens next, then the game fails.
Sandbox games I play just to have fun. To see what kind of crazy shit I can come up with. In short, to entertain myself.
FPS I play for the action and sometimes the story, but thats usually a bonus and happens rarely.
And multiplayer games I play to have fun with my buddies.
Also Hruka, two thumbs up for the "Snatch" quote under your name!
More realistically though, for some reason, I enjoy having a vast knowledge of Video Games. I love being able to remember shit thats so old, it shouldn't be remembered. :P
Its like I'm my own little database full of Video Game trivia that no one gives a fuck about but me.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
I think it's really unhealthy so I've given a lot of thought lately as to how best to overcome that urge. If I don't bother with it at all then I don't get as much bang for my buck in singleplayer games and will miss a lot of unlockables, but maybe it's worth it for the peace of mind. I'm considering just erasing the saves I've backed up so I won't think about it anymore. I might still do it for Virtual Console games though, that's relatively manageable.
Tycho is the writer, so you have to cut Gabe a little slack. He might have better phrased his statement as, "I don't play games to beat them, I play games to experience them."
And, to that degree, I agree with him. My enjoyment of a game comes from appreciating its craftsmanship: its art design (of which graphics is a small part), its writing, its sound design, and, most of all, its gameplay. I am not interested in beating it or even in testing my personal "skillz." And if a game tests them too sorely, making me feel frustrated or even insufficient as a gamer, then that lessens its fun.
Only a few genres are excepted: rhythm games or puzzle games, for instance, I play as a combination as to beat and to experience.
Steam BoardGameGeek Twitter
I play Gears of War on casual, just so I can coast it and see the spectacle.
That said I also 100%'d Burnout Takedown, so I play for challenge sometimes.
I don't really play for the challenge, but I like to have it.
Mostly, I want to experience an adventure. If I'm not challenged, it's not really an adventure, is it?
Secondly, I don't think this has to be an either/or. I think the best games combine an aesthetic experience with a drive to master them, and that these two facets can complement each other.
For example, Devil May Cry. It's a pretty game, but I feel like a major part of the aesthetic experience is the feeling of power and badassness you get by killing a bunch of demons in ridiculously stylish fashion. Here, the skill-part of the game complements the vicarious experience part—the better you are at the game, the more "into" the experience you are.
Guitar Hero is another good example. I don't really care about high scores, but I think playing on Expert is just more fun, more interactive, than playing on easier difficulties. I'm motivated to master the game by my desire to more fully interact with the music.
in Ravenholm is one. I like driving games like Underground or Gran Turismo, Forza, where you can screw around with a car, make it really fast, and enjoy that false sense of speed.
I don't like the idea of "finishing" a game, then there is no reason to go back. There should be things that you haven't done, areas you haven't explored.
I really don't care if a game looks good, in terms of "see." If Gabe meant see= play, experience, enjoy...then we're on the same level. Fallout 2 looks like crap, but in terms of gameplay and indepth storyline, its one of the best games
going. I played Neverwinter Nights online to satisfy the Pnp urge, and stopped playing it like a month ago. The game is terribly dated, but I know of no other game that delivers the same experience, RPG wise.
That's one of my biggest gripes with Oblivion. Amazing looking game, but as there is a certain PA comic that says the same thing...its a big snoozefest.
So he'd play up to the final boss and then quit. He only lasted one semester tho as he felt the same way to class assignments.
In any case, I feel sort of bad finishing a game myself. I like to look at my ridiculously huge bookshelf full of video games and know that there's stuff still to see in all of them.
Exactly, same here, except I don't even play rhythm games to beat them and the only puzzle game that's caught me fancy recently is Zack and Wiki. I can't even enjoy the puzzles in Zelda without getting bored fast. That's why I love the DS and Wii so much; I'm not impressed by shiny graphics nor do I play games to beat them so the regular mechanics of the PS3/Xbox 360 got old fast. Although the mini-game fest on the Wii should wear out its welcome pretty soon too.
In fact, during the tail end of the last generation I almost dropped out of gaming altogether. I stil read the news and knew what was coming out, how they rated, what PA and NeoGAF thought, etc but I ever actually got around to playing the games. A Tuesday night could just as be spent watching the latest run from SpeedDemoArchives than trying the game it was achieved on. I guess you could also call me a hardcore casual...
I hate finishing books for the same reason -- I always do finish them -- but it's a sad feeling. You're following these characters and their lives and adventures and then... that's it, there's nothing left, no way to continue that adventure.
Except read it again! That always works for me.
For example, a friend of mine started talking to me about the FF Tactics set of games recently. He started a replay of the original while I replayed Advanced. He started asking me about it, the different classes and such. Although I was deep in the game and had already beaten it once, I couldn't tell him the various jobs/abilities of each, nor could I remember how they different. He started talking about Calculators and such, and I just shrugged. Didn't matter to me.
The thing is with my games is that I aim to play them, not delve them. People will spend hours playing something like Disgaea, exploring all the infinite variation and whatnot, and while I do that to an extent, it's not my main focus. I don't mean to knock anyone who does that, as a game is really what you take away from it, it's just not how I do it.
Other symptoms: My characters in JRPGs are often underdeveloped, and final boss fights are difficult, though not impossible. I remember reading about FFVII when it came out and having a stupidly easy final boss, but it took me forever to beat. I'm not that great at Smash, because although I love the game, I get easily destroyed by people who play the game differently. Not competative players, mind, just differently-minded ones.
Of course, this is summed up in the pithy maxim: I love video games, but boy do I suck at em.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
You could always write your own awful fan fiction!
Nah, I kid.
/shrug
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I just don't understand this:
This seems odd to me. Like, I don't understand how you couldn't retain this knowledge, having beat the game once. How could you not know the difference between someone who attacks and someone who heals. How could you beat the game without knowing that?
Or am I misinterpretting? Are you saying you know that stuff while playing, but when you think about it outside of the game, you just sorta forget?
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
For example, I'm playing LOTRO at the moment, t's the first time I'm paying for a MMORPG and I'm taking my sweet time, while I see people that have been playin for 1/4 of the time I'm playing and already have like 5 max level chars. And they say "You know, I'm getting bored of this game." Well, no shit!
Pokémon HGSS: 1205 1613 4041
When someone talks to me about something like Calculators, and how they've found the best class/ability balance to wreak maximum damage, I don't have much to say because that's not what I focus on. I get the abilities, but I focus on simply playing with them, not theorycrafting them. If I find something that works, I stick with it instead of divine a way to maximize its potential.
I know it a bit better when I'm playing a game, but ultimately forget it all later on. Which is why when he asked me to compare the different jobs and roles between the 2 installments, I couldn't. It's just not an aspect of the game I focused on.