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Australian PAers, please help with some university advice!
Ultimanecat
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So, I'm an American that graduated recently from university, and while I'm working as a teacher right now, I'd rather be in law school (or more correctly, I'd rather be in law school once I save a little more money and secure a loan).
While I could apply to an American law school, I'd rather not for a variety of reasons that I can get in to if you're actually interested.
After looking around, I definitely am interested in some of the programs available in Australia; they're organized in a way that I'm familiar with, and I can still qualify for financial aid from the US government. What I don't know is the relative quality of the schools, and whether I should bother applying to some of them.
I have a BA in Political Science - International Relations from the University of California, San Diego. My cumulative GPA is a 3.36 on a 4 point scale, but that is actually the average of the GPAs that I have from two separate universities that I attended to achieve the same degree.
What schools should I honestly consider applying to, knowing that I may take the LLB and move out of Australia later? I've looked at the University of Sydney, University of New South Wales, and the University of Canberra so far. Their entrance requirements for US students seem to be based solely on GPA, with a minimum GPA listed as a 2.8 at most of those. Is mine competitive enough to bother?
Any help or advice is appreciated!
While I could apply to an American law school, I'd rather not for a variety of reasons that I can get in to if you're actually interested.
After looking around, I definitely am interested in some of the programs available in Australia; they're organized in a way that I'm familiar with, and I can still qualify for financial aid from the US government. What I don't know is the relative quality of the schools, and whether I should bother applying to some of them.
I have a BA in Political Science - International Relations from the University of California, San Diego. My cumulative GPA is a 3.36 on a 4 point scale, but that is actually the average of the GPAs that I have from two separate universities that I attended to achieve the same degree.
What schools should I honestly consider applying to, knowing that I may take the LLB and move out of Australia later? I've looked at the University of Sydney, University of New South Wales, and the University of Canberra so far. Their entrance requirements for US students seem to be based solely on GPA, with a minimum GPA listed as a 2.8 at most of those. Is mine competitive enough to bother?
Any help or advice is appreciated!
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General advice is to attend a law school in the state where you want to practice. I can't imagine it wouldn't apply to countries. If you're not looking to practice in Australia afterwards, why go to school there?
I suppose if you want to practice International Law, that's one thing, but otherwise, I can't see it making a lot of sense.
Law at UQ is pretty decent, and Brisbane's a pretty nice city to live in...But if your primary concern is quality of education, I'd look into that a bit more...
QUT in Brisbane, UQ Brisbane
Bond in QLD, though this is uber expensive
RMIT in Melbourne
UNSW in Sydney
Are your best bets
Well, I do want to stick with international law, if that helps clear it up. My area of focus when studying international relations at university was East Asia.
Beyond that, I do know the "go to school where you want to practice" mantra, but I'm not really sure I even want to practice law so much as I want to use the knowledge and parlay it into a related career.
Combine that with the fact that I'm a California resident (no cheap law education for me anyway unless I have a 3.8 and can somehow get into Boalt up at Berkeley or get into UCLA...and I hate LA) and that I'm not a fan of the ABA and don't really feel obliged to do anything for them, and suddenly going to law school abroad didn't seem too far-fetched.
Sorry
That maxim doesn't really mean shit within Australia. We have mutual recognition schemes, and our state laws are all quite similar if you choose to practice. As far as studying overseas goes, principles of law easily translate between jurisdictions, and you'd be quite capable of using an Australian law degree in the US if you chose to.
I'm at Uni of Tasmania law school, and while I don't want to do a whole sales pitch, it's a great school so long as you're not too hung-up about going to the best law school. I'm sure that can be said about a lot of Australia's second-tier law schools. I'd be happy to talk to you about it over PM if you want more details.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought RMIT didn't have a law facuilty?
ANU seems to be a pretty solid school and ranks high, but it seems that they focus more on Australian constitutional and administrative law. It'd be fine if I knew that I wanted to stay in Australia, but I'm not too sure about that. It's also in the ACT, which I guess isn't the most lively place to be.
UNSW still looks like a good candidate.
UQ Brisbane doesn't seem to have a graduate law program, as far as I can tell.
No opinions on University of Sydney? Should I avoid it for some reason?
Thanks guys...obviously I'm a bit insane for considering going to school in a country I hardly know.
I'm studying law at Bond University at the moment. As far as I know, law isn't really a graduate program. I'm straight out of highschool studying law in my first year of university.
Sydney University and UNSW are both fantastic choices, as is UQ. You should also seriously consider University of Melbourne if you get the chance.
I'm gathering my application materials and so far I am currently applying to USyd, UNSW, and University of Melbourne. I'm also looking at Monash and Bond.
If any other Australians have anything they'd like to share, I'll have your babies. Although I'm American, so that's probably not a good thing in your eyes.
What Iriah said: USyd students say that about every faculty. They're the biggest collection of snobs and yuppies in Sydney. Of course, that could actually be a good thing for Law...
Avoid ACT and Canberra. The place is a glorified sheep farm. I can't stress this enough.
The UNSW Law Building looks like it was built by Imperial Stormtroopers or something. You could go there simply for the novelty of working in a pub-adjacent architectural monstrosity.
1) Bond University (Private & expensive though)
2) University of Queensland (Where I attended before I deferred)
3) Queensland University of Technology
4) Griffith University
As far as how each stands in regards to law, I have no idea, my list is simply more of the general quality of each one. I have several friends who attend each of the different universities and none strongly dislike them so it would be hard to go wrong, just it would be wise to research which is the best in regards to law but I would imagine it would be Bond or UQ.
I'd go for USyd if I were you just for the networking opportunities, but its hardly the only good place.
As far as academic snobbery goes...well, I'm not a fan, but I've lived through it before and I figure I can manage again. To be honest, it was something that I was hoping to avoid by going to a school outside the US, but maybe some things are more similar than I thought.
By the way, I'm also applying to a few other schools, mostly in Scandinavia (I speak Norwegian and Swedish)...those I'm not so sure about since I really would be tying myself down to the region. But, I've lived there before, and if I'm going to emigrate for anything at anytime, now would be the best bet.
I've been accepted to UNSW for their Law program, and I'm seriously considering going for it. My friends and family are not unanimously thrilled about the idea, but we only have one life to live, so sometimes you just have to follow your dreams :P
Thanks for the help. Now I have to start the long process of applying for US financial aid and securing a loan.
Also you get to work in our law building, where to venture inside is to risk your sanity.
With the AUD quickly gaining 1:1 with the USD, you may run into some financing problems. Just something to keep in mind.
UNSW's fees are actually pretty reasonable compared to US schools, and I'm looking easily at 150000 USD of debt over three years of school no matter whether I stay in the US or not. I'll have to see, though, if it will be a much larger issue getting a loan to make up the difference between my financial aid and my total expenses if I'm studying in a different country.
Uh...what do you want to DO with this degree? This is coming a few months too late, but do you want to do international relations work? If so, you're better off going to SAIS or the Fletcher school. What job are you trying to get with an Australian LLB?
If you need any help getting acclimatised to Australia and how things work here, drop one of us a line. Soon you'll wonder why you didn't move here earlier.
Heh, you sound a bit like some of my friends in currently in law school / some members of my family.
I'm aware that by getting a degree in Australia I would be limiting my options upon any possible return to America, and trust me, in the dark of night I'm still wondering what the right thing to do is.
But firstly, graduating from a law school in America doesn't guarantee much these days. I'd have to be a fairly exemplary student (which I quixotically plan on being) no matter where I go to have hopes of doing something amazing with that JD/LLB - and if I really do plan on pushing myself like that, then it may matter less where I go (within reason...after all, I did ask what schools in Australia are considered "good", but then again I didn't know too much about them when I asked!)
Secondly, I'm really not a terribly competitive person, nor am I focused on pure material success. I guess because of that, the nature of the application process and the actual atmosphere fostered at some US law schools is just off-putting. Law in America would probably eat me alive...
Finally, my areas of interest mostly concern public international law as it concerns the US (duh), Asia, and more generally, the Pacific Rim. I worked with the Red Cross when I lived in Norway with issues concerning refugees and asylum-seekers, so I'm interested in that as well. Whether there is any career in that in the first place, I'm not sure, but there aren't many US law schools that can help me with that focus any more than another common-law-based school outside the US.
I'm still not sure what your plan is after that last post. It's hard to work for any IGO/NGO as an american generally - most try to keep things representative of in terms of country and gender. So as a white male from the global north, it's a hard slot to get in the first place. There's not a whole lot of legal jobs out there in PIL anyway. If I get my security clearance, I'll be working in one in the fall with the us federal government.
There's a definite pecking order to these things, and the school you go to matters IMMENSELY. I think it will be hard doing it coming out of anywhere but USyd, and you're not going to be able to get work from the aussie gov't if you're not a citizen, and you won't get american work because you didn't go to an american law school.
I've worked on a few asylum cases, and honestly, if you really want to help refugees and asylum-seekers, you're much better off working with resettlement groups in a non-legal capacity. There are lots of immigration lawyers as it is, and the communities need lots of help after their petitions are heard in admin court.
I'm glad you're realistic about the lack of what law school can do for you. But to a large extent, the school matters a lot more than your grades. If you go to some second-tier law school in the states, there's no way a selective federal agency will hire you (the exception would be JAG), but you could be bottom-third of a selective school - like columbia, chicago, stanford,yale, harvard or berkeley, and get a placement if you interview well.
You won't be able to practice in the states with an LLB. Many, many states won't let you practice even if you come back and spend ANOTHER $100,000 picking up an LLM from an american law school. This plan really sounds like you're going to blow anywhere from $100,000-$300,000 to pursue an ill-defined int'l public service career that isn't really predicated on legal work to begin with, and you'll have no way of paying off your loans once you finish.
One of the big advantages of going to a good American school is their generous loan repayment programs - NYU comes to mind here especially, will pay off your loans to varying amounts if you're stuck making ~$70k or less. Unless you're sure the Australian schools can match that, even if you want to do something in PIL, there's no way you'll be able to afford it. And if your parents can hand you that much $$, you're better off volunteering or working cheap for a year or two with an int'l aid agency and parlaying that experience into a full career or going to a better law school w/your job experience (and spending $$ on prepping for the LSAT till you get a score that will get you in to a selective school).
I think your objectives are noble, but you're taking a really bad course to get there. You're going to be buried in debt and have no clear employment path. It's not even clear you'll be able to work in australia, because you won't be guaranteed a work visa. And do you want to spend the rest of your life in australia?
I'm just a guy on the internet, but i'm on a similar path as you, and I think there are much cheaper, easier and more reliable ways to travel that path.
For the most part, like I said, I like to be realistic, but at the same time some of the truths behind legal study/practice in the US bother me. Maybe I'm getting too old to flip the bird to the establishment and tell them I don't need their rules, but honestly if an attitude of "C's get degrees" at a top-tier law school is better than doing markedly well at a less-noteworthy school, it makes me a sad panda. Same goes for paying thousands of dollars for LSAT courses until you can raise your score to some arbitrary point that's necessary to not get your application binned immediately at any chosen school (while I haven't taken mine yet, practice tests I've taken probably put me around 165-175, depending on how good a day I'm having). I probably could get into an okay school (just locally thinking, Boalt ain't happening right off the bat with my GPA, UCLA / USC may take me but no thanks to living and working in LA).
I'm open to emigrating from the US (this is probably the point where most of my friends, especially the ones in law school, mark me as "insane"). If my being American is the scarlet letter for NGO work, then I guess I really just have no business doing that.
Anyways, I'm aware of the basic, cold truth of what you're saying, but I thank you for the advice. I'm still talking it over with the family, and I have a bit of time to make a decision.
In terms of rankings and what not in Universities in Australia for law I think its ANU first place then Melbourne uni. Plus the city is good fun if that counts for anything. But Canberra where ANU is at is a serious fucking bore.
Yes. He totally does. He just doesn't know it yet.
I bet not many of you lot live in Victoria...
(Sorry for the arrogance and petty elitism present in the above post. As a UoM law student, I feel entitled to be a sniveling, arrogant asshole. This is what we're known for, apart from our world class faculty.)
EDIT: Of course, someone mentions MU two posts below mine and I don't see it. Hooray!
Incidentally, UNSW stated in their offer letter that I should probably let them know if I intend to attend within about a month, which puts me in a bit of a bind. I'm still considering applying to the University of Melbourne (along with some American law schools), but that would have to happen after I potentially decide not to attend UNSW, since both UM and schools here require taking the LSAT. I'm taking it in about two weeks, so I could feasibly squeak in an application to UM in time.
Funny how the suggestions have pretty much named most major Australian universities (as far as I can tell)...confusing enough but maybe they just haven't ingrained their names and how they stack up in the public consciousness like they have here.
Who likes hierarchies? Unfortunately, they serve a purpose for letting employers easily, if imperfectly, pre-screen applicants. So while you don't have to like the system, you should still try to work it. The goal isn't to feel good about the structure of legal academia and employment - your goal is to get the job you want. You're right that Boalt won't happen, but if you know boalt disproportionately weights your GPA, then you know that everywhere else favors high-LSAT low-GPA splitters. Given that your GPA isn't that low, if you score a 170+ on the LSAT you have a very good shot at a Cornell/Georgetown ranked school that will get you where yoju want to be. I'm not sure how you made the inferential leap that attending school at USC or UCLA means you're stuck in LA - you can go to any major market or any secondary market you have ties to with those schools.
You may not like the idea of the LSAT determining your fate, but it does, and you should prepare for the test accordingly. You're scoring well enough that if you invest $$ at the front end into boosting your score, it will repay itself off immensely - either by matriculating at a school that will pay off your $150,000-$200,000 in loans, or by letting you go to a lesser-ranked school that will provide you with a generous scholarship up front.
If you're going to make a giant investment of 3 years of your youth and gobs of cash, have a coherent career path before you go. FWIW, my aussie friends anecdotally establish the same pecking order, with my USyd and ANU friends at the top of it; I don't know what that means for your career prospects at UNSW. But you need to investigate australian rules league tables before you make a decision, because worst case, you're going to be stuck either drafting legal memos at a firm or washing dishes in australia if this whole PIL thing doesn't work out.
Your issues with the American law school system are not going to be alliviated by having a foreign qualification, and you seem to know that.
To me, you just sound hell-bent on getting out of America and having a life experience, which is fine. I've done that (one study abroad year to California, year and a half working in New Zealand), and I would recommend that everyone else do it too.
What I am worried about is that it seems you are doing is trying to rationalise this perfectly reasonable urge by replacing it with something "useful" so your time isn't "wasted". Law school provides a convienient reason, either to convince yourself or others, for your time abroad.
You don't need a reason, going there is reason enough, and it's a reason that doesn't involve crippling student debt.
I would seriously think about deferring your application, and travelling to Australia as a Working Holidaymaker (if you still qualify, which you should). You can live and work in Oz for a year, experience the different lifestyle and people. After that time, if you still then want to continue and take an Australian law degree in order to stay and practice in Australia, then all the better.
Never mind the doom and gloom scenarios that could happen, because time and time again it turns out after you've had your first couple of jobs, employers stop caring what university you went to.
And as far as I've gathered, UNSW is an alright school anyway...
You're at least partly right, Lewisham - ever since I got back from living in Europe I've felt a compulsion to do something more "international" with myself, and honestly speaking I probably do better when I'm challenged day-by-day in an not-quite-familiar environment.
I dunno. Practicality is always smarter, and much less interesting :P