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Light Gun Games! [NSF56K]

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    House of the Dead 4, however, is fucking brilliant.
    Seriously. Go play it now. NOW.

    I have a feeling that HOTD4 and Ghost Squad are the last great arcade light gun games.

    DodgeBlan on
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    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I didn't much like House of the Dead 4 really to be honest, I didn't think it was a patch on HOTD2

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    HypertimeHypertime Arlington, VARegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I assume I wasn't the only dude who dual-wielded with light gun arcade games, right? I was especially found of that old Terminator 2 light gun game.

    Hypertime on
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    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I loved "The Gun"- Alien game.

    Mr_Grinch on
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    AnakinOUAnakinOU Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    Light Guns work on HDTV, you just need to know where to look :) Someone on this forum pointed this out to me and I got two.

    http://www.ntsc-uk.com/feature.php?featuretype=hdw&fea=LCDTopGun

    The guns support PS2, Xbox and Mame. All work a treat (although no talking of mame here!) and have a pretty strong (but not daft) kick-back.

    Works an absolute charm on both my HDTV AND my projector. Virtua Cop 2 and House of the Dead 3 on a giant projector = awesome fun.

    For the projector...what is your screen size, and how far back do you need to sit for it to work?

    AnakinOU on
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    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Erm, my projector is horribly unprofessionally done and I just take down a mirror and plonk the image on my close-enough-to-white wall.

    You actually place the sensors IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PICTURE (I use the mirror hooks!) and then calibrate it. Roughly my screen is likely about 10foot to 12 foot wide and I can sit at the sofa at the back of the room...probably a little over 10 foot away.

    It works great though and is really accurate. For the £20 they cost they're worth giving a shot.

    Mr_Grinch on
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    NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    The PS2's GunCon2 will work on CRT HDTV's with a $12 adapter. I don't know if that extends to LCD/Plasma/Projector.

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    Dodge AspenDodge Aspen Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Crossbow training is one of the shortest games on the Wii, and I am simply addicted to it. Only one more platinum before I have no more goals! :(

    Slash, did you say House of the Dead games are coming to the Wii? This is news to me. Please say it's true.

    Dodge Aspen on
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    SmudgeSmudge Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Are these Wii games really lightgun style games though? My understanding is that they are just crosshair games. A proper lightgun game would have no crosshair on the screen and would have to be calibrated to screensize and where you are sitting (can be as simple as aiming at two corners of the screen and shooting).

    Crossbow training for instance is NOT a lightgun game. You are just moving a crosshair around the screen with relative movement of the controller. A lightgun game would have you actually aiming at the object on the screen you want to shoot and then firing. Not moving a crosshair over a target and firing. The latter is a rail shooter, the former would be a modern equivalent of a lightgun game.

    I mourn the death of the lightgun game even moreso because of the Wii and the corruption of what 'lightgun game' even really means.

    Do these Wii games allow for full calibration and no crosshair? I have not played umbrella chronicles or ghost hunter, but I hear crossbow training mixed in with them, and I HAVE played that, and that is a rail shooter.

    Smudge on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Crossbow training is one of the shortest games on the Wii, and I am simply addicted to it. Only one more platinum before I have no more goals! :(

    I am too. It's really addicting. I got all the Platinum medals.. so I set a new goal for myself.. to break 100,000 on every level.. did that... so I set a new goal: break 200,000 on every level. I think it did that for most of the levels.. Now I have >300,000 on a good number of these levels. I need to go back to it, now that finals are over...
    Slash, did you say House of the Dead games are coming to the Wii? This is news to me. Please say it's true.



    yes, sega's releasing HOTD 2+3 combo pack for the Wii. I don't know of a release date though.

    slash000 on
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    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Sharp10r wrote: »
    What about all of Sega's shooters?

    which shooters do you want to know about?

    TheSonicRetard on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Sharp10r wrote: »
    What about all of Sega's shooters?

    which shooters do you want to know about?

    all of them

    LewieP on
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    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    Sharp10r wrote: »
    What about all of Sega's shooters?

    which shooters do you want to know about?

    all of them

    peh, that'd take hours to talk about. Sega released more gun games than I think you guys realize.

    Instead I'll talk about the 3 types of gun games sega released. Sega has 3 different arcade hardwares for gun games. The first, and most widely used, uses a standard CRT monitor and a the standard sequential timing sequence most light gun games use. Inside the barrel of the light gun is a photodiode which can interpret light in binary - black for 1 and white for 0. When you pull the trigger, the entire screen blanks white except for a target, which gets masked entirely in black. The diode reads at this moment and checks to see if it is seeing white or black. This method is called sequential timing because it cycles through all available targets, blacking them out one by one. So enemy 1 is black for this milisecond, then enemy 2 is black for this one, and so forth. The game simply notes when the diode saw black and kills the appropriate enemy. Games such as Virtua Cop, Gangster Town, and Jurassic Park 2: The lost World all used this.

    Some what rarer and more unconventional is the Terminator 2 style of light guns. T2 the arcade game had 2 mounted guns. However, unlike conventional light guns, these didn't detect light at all. In fact, they weren't even light guns. They were mounted to special pivots which could monitor what angle the gun was facing. So as you pulled back on the gun to aim up or tilted left or right, the gun would simply move the cross hair. Playing with these guns was essentially playing with a very large analog stick. Of course T2 used it (and later Revolution X) but a couple of sega games used it as well, noticably Gunblade.

    The final, more common light gun method used now utilizes a pair of IR receivers. This technology is born from the aborted Dreamcast motion controller plans. Under the cabinet's screen lies a mat of IR sensors which determines precisely where the game controller is. Because the screen is fixed width, the game will always know in 3D space where the gun is. This is basically the same tech Samba De Amigo used. Sega light gun games which use this include House of the Dead 4, Virtua Cop 3, and Ghost Squad.

    TheSonicRetard on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    That'll do me.

    I don't really have much else to contribute, other than it was interesting to read that, and I am glad I now know it.

    LewieP on
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    WezoinWezoin Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Wow, some of you guys really know alot about how light guns work.

    God damn it's making me miss having an arcade in my town though. They've all closed except a random machine here or there, and those all seem to be pretty busted up.

    Wezoin on
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    BigJoeMBigJoeM Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Smudge wrote: »
    Are these Wii games really lightgun style games though? My understanding is that they are just crosshair games. A proper lightgun game would have no crosshair on the screen and would have to be calibrated to screensize and where you are sitting (can be as simple as aiming at two corners of the screen and shooting).

    Crossbow training for instance is NOT a lightgun game. You are just moving a crosshair around the screen with relative movement of the controller. A lightgun game would have you actually aiming at the object on the screen you want to shoot and then firing. Not moving a crosshair over a target and firing. The latter is a rail shooter, the former would be a modern equivalent of a lightgun game.

    I mourn the death of the lightgun game even moreso because of the Wii and the corruption of what 'lightgun game' even really means.

    Do these Wii games allow for full calibration and no crosshair? I have not played umbrella chronicles or ghost hunter, but I hear crossbow training mixed in with them, and I HAVE played that, and that is a rail shooter.

    Ghost Squad does in exactly the way you mention.

    You calibrate the game by shooting in the upper left and lower right corners of your screen and then you can choose to play without the cursor.

    In fact you gain more points for playing it as intended and not using the cursor.

    It 's a really fun game and delightfully cheesy.

    BigJoeM on
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    SmudgeSmudge Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    BigJoeM wrote: »
    Smudge wrote: »
    Are these Wii games really lightgun style games though? My understanding is that they are just crosshair games. A proper lightgun game would have no crosshair on the screen and would have to be calibrated to screensize and where you are sitting (can be as simple as aiming at two corners of the screen and shooting).

    Crossbow training for instance is NOT a lightgun game. You are just moving a crosshair around the screen with relative movement of the controller. A lightgun game would have you actually aiming at the object on the screen you want to shoot and then firing. Not moving a crosshair over a target and firing. The latter is a rail shooter, the former would be a modern equivalent of a lightgun game.

    I mourn the death of the lightgun game even moreso because of the Wii and the corruption of what 'lightgun game' even really means.

    Do these Wii games allow for full calibration and no crosshair? I have not played umbrella chronicles or ghost hunter, but I hear crossbow training mixed in with them, and I HAVE played that, and that is a rail shooter.

    Ghost Squad does in exactly the way you mention.

    You calibrate the game by shooting in the upper left and lower right corners of your screen and then you can choose to play without the cursor.

    In fact you gain more points for playing it as intended and not using the cursor.

    It 's a really fun game and delightfully cheesy.

    Awesome! So it is a real lightgun game then, not a glorified mouse pointer game.

    I will definately have to at the very least rent this then. Thanks for letting me know! I am hesitant with these kinds of games as people often misuse the word 'lightgun' in some awful ways. I love lightgun/aiming games, but find rail shooters to be boring as heck. They are no more fun than navigating the Wii menu or using my mouse to open desktop shortcuts for me.

    Smudge on
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    Sharp10rSharp10r Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    BigJoeM wrote: »
    Smudge wrote: »
    Are these Wii games really lightgun style games though? My understanding is that they are just crosshair games. A proper lightgun game would have no crosshair on the screen and would have to be calibrated to screensize and where you are sitting (can be as simple as aiming at two corners of the screen and shooting).

    Crossbow training for instance is NOT a lightgun game. You are just moving a crosshair around the screen with relative movement of the controller. A lightgun game would have you actually aiming at the object on the screen you want to shoot and then firing. Not moving a crosshair over a target and firing. The latter is a rail shooter, the former would be a modern equivalent of a lightgun game.

    I mourn the death of the lightgun game even moreso because of the Wii and the corruption of what 'lightgun game' even really means.

    Do these Wii games allow for full calibration and no crosshair? I have not played umbrella chronicles or ghost hunter, but I hear crossbow training mixed in with them, and I HAVE played that, and that is a rail shooter.

    Ghost Squad does in exactly the way you mention.

    You calibrate the game by shooting in the upper left and lower right corners of your screen and then you can choose to play without the cursor.

    In fact you gain more points for playing it as intended and not using the cursor.

    It 's a really fun game and delightfully cheesy.
    NO WAY!? Seriously?!? Ok, Ghost Squad and the Wii Zapper just moved to the TOP of my Christmas list!

    OH and SonicRetard: :^: Thanks for the info. That was an awesome report.

    Sharp10r on
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    BigJoeMBigJoeM Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Ghost Squad is awesome with the zapper (my personal favorite way to play it though it will work with the wiimote by itself or with the nunchuk and no zapper)

    Also if you find using the front trigger on the zapper awkward you can set the controls to use the Z button on the nunchuk as your fire button.

    BigJoeM on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Guys, there has been an interesting thing regarding the Wii remote and its use as a lightgun. Ghost Squad has scratched the surface, but there's an even more compelling argument for just how accurate the wii pointer function can get with a simple calibration.

    I was going to save this for a whole thread, but fuck it:

    Wii Remote Whiteboard


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5EvhHy7eQ


    Highly impressive.


    If the wii remote can let you calibrate it to the point where it is accurate enough to just about be used 1:1 as a pointer function for a PC, then it sure as hell can be accurate enough once calibrated to work 1:1 in a lightgun game.

    Ghost Squad does this already, but if a developer were to use the 4-point calibration then it would be even more accurate.

    slash000 on
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    SmudgeSmudge Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Yeah, I have always known the Wii COULD do 1:1 lightgun, but have always feared they would instead go the way of elebits/trauma center/twilight princess/MP3/COD3/red steel and just leave it as relative motion with a crosshair and call them lightgun games.

    Now, this has me wondering. Does Umbrella chronicles allow you to calibrate for 1:1 and play without a crosshair? So you are actually AIMING and not just moving a crosshair?

    Smudge on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Umbrella Chronicles, unfortunatley, does not have a calibration. (any REUC owners out there refute this if it is untrue, but I have not read anything about REUC being able to calibrate to 1:1)


    Right now I think Ghost Squad is the only game on the Wii, period, that allows you to calibrate the pointer for 1:1 accuracy. Even then, GS uses 2 points of calibration, whereas the ideal game would use 4 or 5 points for calibration (the four corners and the center).


    The Whiteboard demonstration pretty much proves that with 4 calibrated, relative points where the Wii Remote can 'see' the entire screen onto which you are pointing, that you can have precisely laid down digital coordinates for where a physical object is pointing.

    The difference between the Whiteboard demonstration and the Wii's normal use is that the "sensor bar" in the demo was moving, and the remote was stationary. For the wii, you'd have the "sensor bar" stationary, and the remote would be moving.

    To the Wii remote's eye, both situations are exactly the same. In both scenarios, you'd have the remote's "eye" being told the 4 corners of the screen relative to a single stationary point - for the whiteboard, the stationary point is the fixed position of the wii remote, for the Wii game console, that fixed point is the sensor bar.

    in both situations, all the remote 'eye' is seeing is an LED (or a pair) moving about a completely ambiguous background. Once the system is told where on this background the four points of the screen are, it can essentially set up its own X and Y coordinate system between those points, and overlay that X-Y system over the square screen of the TV (or projected screen). Thus, you have perfect 1:1 calibration.


    I said it all along, that all the Wii needs is a quick calibration tool, and any lightgun game 1:1 would be perfectly feasible. I've said this since the Wii was launched. Now we're starting to see it come to fruition.

    slash000 on
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    GSMGSM Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Isn't a lot of the limitation due to the two-point system nintendo decided on with the "sensor bar"?
    As in, if they released 4-point alternatives to the sensor bar, a lot more accuracy would be possible?

    edit: I'm basing this on reading Glovepie Scripts where they mention "only one dot visible" conditions, where you looked too far left or right.

    GSM on
    We'll get back there someday.
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    WezoinWezoin Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Anyone mind explaining this 1:1 thing? I'm assuming it pretty much means perfect acuracy?

    Also, Virtua Cop 1 + 2 for ps2? I may have to hunt down a cheap ps2 now since those games are freakin sweet.

    Wezoin on
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    SmudgeSmudge Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Yes, the possibilities of the Wii were clear to most, and then shot down by the pre-launch quote that the system would 'require no calibration' which destroyed the chance of 1:1 pointing. I still don't mind that quote, but for those who WANT 1:1 and not relative controls, give us the OPTION to calibrate it for where we are sitting.

    Smudge on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    GSM wrote: »
    Isn't a lot of the limitation due to the two-point system nintendo decided on with the "sensor bar"?
    As in, if they released 4-point alternatives to the sensor bar, a lot more accuracy would be possible?

    edit: I'm basing this on reading Glovepie Scripts where they mention "only one dot visible" conditions, where you looked too far left or right.


    No, the two-point system does not prevent 1:1 accuracy.


    It's like what I was saying:

    There is no difference between the Whiteboard demo and the wii system.


    In the white board, you only have 1 LED acting for the remote's "eye." That's all it needs. 2 points for the sensor bar is really only there to allow the wii remote to sense distance from the sensor bar.



    What the system needs for 1:1 accuracy is two things:

    1. A stationary fixed point of reference.
    2. 4 points relative to that fixed point representing the 4 corners of a screen.


    The fixed point of reference is the sensor bar. It really only needs 1 LED for this purpose, but the sensor bar provides 2 for distance calculations by the Wii system.

    The 4 points relative the fixed point are provided by calibration. This is the same as pointing to the four points of a screen in the whiteboard demo, or in a game, it would be pointing the remote to four corners of the TV screen. In Ghost Squad, it uses only 2 for calibration, and then calculates the other 2 points for its four. This is less accurate than providing 4 by the user because it doesn't take into account angles besides 90 degrees.



    Having more than 4 LEDs would provide more accuracy, yes, but it does not preclude a very, very accurate 1:1 system, as proven by the Whiteboard demo.



    Smudge wrote: »
    Yes, the possibilities of the Wii were clear to most, and then shot down by the pre-launch quote that the system would 'require no calibration' which destroyed the chance of 1:1 pointing. I still don't mind that quote, but for those who WANT 1:1 and not relative controls, give us the OPTION to calibrate it for where we are sitting.


    Exactly. The wii system doesn't require calibration to work ---

    --- it only require calibration to achieve 1:1, which is perfectly possible, as proven by Ghost Squad and the Whiteboard demo.


    It's a software question, not a hardware question.

    slash000 on
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    SmudgeSmudge Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Wezoin wrote: »
    Anyone mind explaining this 1:1 thing? I'm assuming it pretty much means perfect acuracy?

    Also, Virtua Cop 1 + 2 for ps2? I may have to hunt down a cheap ps2 now since those games are freakin sweet.

    Tape a laserpointer to your wiimote. 1:1 would mean your cursor would be where the laser pointer is on the screen.

    This is not how the Wii works right now. Instead you are not pointing at the cursor on your screen but just pointing vaguely toward the screen (depending on where your sensor bar is and if you have your system set to above or below the tv). You then rotate the wiimote to move the pointer around. But how much you move it does not correlate directly to any given distance on the screen. It can't. Without any calibration the Wii has no idea of where your television is compared to the sensor bar, or how large your TV is. Moving the wiimote a little to the right will cause a large movement on a huge projection screen. Moving it that same amount would cause a tiny movement on a 13 inch tv. It will move the same number of pixels, but a different amount of distance depending on screensize.

    The only way to get 1:1 is to calibrate the system to the corners of the screen. 2 points (diagonal) will work if you are directly in front of the system (or close to it), 4 points will work regardless of position. This calibration would only have to be done once.

    Smudge on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Smudge wrote: »
    Wezoin wrote: »
    Anyone mind explaining this 1:1 thing? I'm assuming it pretty much means perfect acuracy?

    Also, Virtua Cop 1 + 2 for ps2? I may have to hunt down a cheap ps2 now since those games are freakin sweet.

    Tape a laserpointer to your wiimote. 1:1 would mean your cursor would be where the laser pointer is on the screen.

    This is not how the Wii works right now. Instead you are not pointing at the cursor on your screen but just pointing vaguely toward the screen (depending on where your sensor bar is and if you have your system set to above or below the tv). You then rotate the wiimote to move the pointer around. But how much you move it does not correlate directly to any given distance on the screen. It can't. Without any calibration the Wii has no idea of where your television is compared to the sensor bar, or how large your TV is. Moving the wiimote a little to the right will cause a large movement on a huge projection screen. Moving it that same amount would cause a tiny movement on a 13 inch tv. It will move the same number of pixels, but a different amount of distance depending on screensize.

    The only way to get 1:1 is to calibrate the system to the corners of the screen. 2 points (diagonal) will work if you are directly in front of the system (or close to it), 4 points will work regardless of position. This calibration would only have to be done once.



    Exactly.

    Calibration only requires 2 points if you are standing at a 90 degree angle from the screen (standing perfectly in front of it). This is because the screen is a perfect rectangle relative the the remote's eye; and from 2 points, it can calculate the other two points of the rectangle. This is how Ghost Squad works.


    If you are standing at any angle from the screen besides 90 degrees, you need to point the remote and calibrate to 4 points of the screen. The reason is because, based on the viewpoint of the remote, any angle besides 90 degrees makes the screen appear to be a trapezoid. But by giving it 4 points, it can adjust its visible X-Y coordinates to account for that trapezoid shape, and project the X-Y coordinates properly onto the screen. This is exactly how the whiteboard demo works. And a 4-point relative position calibration is perfectly and completely plausible for a game on the Wii itself. It's just that nobody has done it yet!



    But why not?

    because, it's easier to have people use their default calibration that they're used to with the wii, and doesn't require any extra work on the dev's part or the player's part. Plus, no game really suffers from lack of 1:1 except light gun shooters, and you can expect that most if not all light gun shooters in future wii releases will have some sort of 1:1 calibration mode in them. I hope so anyway.

    slash000 on
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    Tim JamesTim James Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    My favorite is Sports Shooting USA by SEGA. I think it's only available in the arcades. I like it because I enjoy practical shooting events and this game tries to mimic it a bit.

    The frustrating thing is that the gun always seems to be miscalibrated, so you can't look through the fake red-dot on top. If I ever found one that was dead on, well... I'd need a lot of quarters.

    Tim James on
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    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Regardless of it being more accurate with 4 points, the 2 points system in Ghost Squad really does work a treat but to aim well with the remote you really do need the zapper. Not that that's a problem, it's cheap as hell :)

    With HOTD3 coming to Wii (and presumably 2 as well) I hope they adopt the calibrate approach rather than JUST a pointer on screen. Also I really really REALLY hope they change one part that was incredibly annoying in the Xbox version of HOTD3

    You couldn't switch OFF auto reload.

    I had a friggin' pump action shot-lightgun which I never needed to "pump" because the game automatically reloaded for me.

    Mr_Grinch on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Damn, Grinch. I had no idea that the game auto-reloaded in HOTD3 on the Xbox.,

    The thing is..

    .. I wouldn't be surprised if HOTD2+3 for the Wii is just bringing over the same thing they put on the 360, changing it only to add wii remote calibration. I reload as much as possible.


    Of course, they added a bunch of crap to Ghost Squad. Or at least it appears that way.



    Anyway. What I mostly care about in future lightgun shooters is a calibration option at least as good as Ghost Squad's.

    slash000 on
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    CentipeedCentipeed Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    On the PS2 I like Virtua Cop Elite Edition (1 and 2 on one disk, as mentioned earlier), probably just because they've got some Japanese guy to shout "Virtua Cop... ELITE EDITION" at the title screen and it sounds hilarious.

    I also like Crisis Zone. Time Crisis makers decided to branch out from their main brand and make a game where you wield machine guns instead. It's awesome.

    Centipeed on
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    BigJoeMBigJoeM Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I think Ninja/Party mode (4 player FTW) and the short training modes/minigames are all that was added to Ghost Sqaud.

    The arcade mode is pretty much the same from the FAQs i've seen and what i've been told.

    BigJoeM on
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    brynstarbrynstar Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I just read through this whole thread and it was fascinating.

    I recently picked up Time Crisis 4 and Ghost Squad, and I'm loving both of them. Time Crisis has a five-point calibration system for the gun, and it works pretty well. I was nervous about the game from the reviews, but I got to try out a demo at my local Fry's and that completely sold me. It's a fun game, and the weird dual-handled gun is surprisingly comfortable.

    Ghost Squad is really great too, though I'm definitely going to have to pick up a zapper tomorrow. The leveling mechanic and all the unlocks are going to suck me in Virtua Fighter style.

    Also, seeing the words FULL AUTO GET go flying across the screen cracks me up every time.

    brynstar on
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