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Flame on: Windows Vista

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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Not very detailed, but I stumbled across this. And this. This one's good too.

    ZOMG WHAT WILL GAMERS DO WITH XP HOME PERFORMANCE HITS!?!

    People say it quite a bit, but these are almost verbatim of what we're hearing today.

    Morskittar on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Alright, ordering a new PC as we speak, and I need an OS. It's either XP or Vista. I'm mainly interested in playing games ~3 years old, so which do I go for?

    Zombiemambo on
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    deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Vista is the better OS with modern hardware.

    deadonthestreet on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Okay, Vista it is. Thanks

    Zombiemambo on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Vista is the better OS with modern, non-budget hardware.

    Beware anything sold with Home Basic.

    Morskittar on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Speaking of which, what version do I want? I just need the barebones. I don't want all the extra junk that comes with media PCs and it's mainly for gaming/browsing the net, so I don't need office or professional or whatever the Vista equivilent is.

    Zombiemambo on
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    bongibongi regular
    edited February 2008
    Home Premium

    bongi on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Can I find it anywhere for under $200? I'm on a budget, and I don't feel like spending a lot on an OS.

    Zombiemambo on
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    victor_c26victor_c26 Chicago, ILRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Yep, Home Premium as bongi suggests.

    You're going to get Media Center with it, but considering the next version below Home Premium (Home Basic) is literally a lobotomized version of Vista, Home Premium is the best choice.

    Just think of Media Center as something extra that came for free. Home Premium costs around the same price as XP Home sold for when it came out.
    Can I find it anywhere for under $200? I'm on a budget, and I don't feel like spending a lot on an OS.

    Get an OEM copy. They sell for $111 for Home Premium.

    It's still a Full Installation copy. The difference being that the OEM version is locked to the motherboard you install and activate it on.

    victor_c26 on
    It's been so long since I've posted here, I've removed my signature since most of what I had here were broken links. Shows over, you can carry on to the next post.
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    bongibongi regular
    edited February 2008
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I don't understand the system builder's thing though.

    Zombiemambo on
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    bongibongi regular
    edited February 2008
    i think it's just because it's intended for resellers

    bongi on
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    victor_c26victor_c26 Chicago, ILRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I don't understand the system builder's thing though.

    Yeah, as bongi said. We're technically not supposed to be able to buy the OEM version. OEM copies are for companies like Compaq, HP, Dell, Falcon Northwest, VooDoo (Now part of HP), etc.

    We're only getting it through Newegg on a technicality (ie buying it with a hardware purchase. Example: Hard drive, motherboard, etc.)

    victor_c26 on
    It's been so long since I've posted here, I've removed my signature since most of what I had here were broken links. Shows over, you can carry on to the next post.
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Okay cool, thanks.

    Zombiemambo on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Lesson time.

    OEM, or Original Equipment Manufacturer licenses come in two varieties. "System Builder" licenses; generic verisons sold to local or independent computer manufacturers; and named or "Royalty" OEM licenses; the type that Dell and HP are able to produce themselves, and pay royalties to MS.

    The former type is what you see on Newegg and the like. Each package has an outer "shell" package with a license agreement on it; the System Builder License Agreement. This exists above the EULA, telling you how the license can be installed, rather than how it's used after installation. This System Builder agreement is "accepted" once you open the outer packaging; at that point you're deemed a System Builder and can only legally transfer the license with a complete computer (though not necessarily new one). If you don't open the outer package and accept the agreement, you can transfer it (without hardware) to another "system builder".

    You can find an online copy of the agreement here. As system builder, you're required to use the OEM Preinstallation Kit (OPK) to install the license (which can be found here), and are responsible for your own support.

    If reinstalling the license, the system will check a hardware-based algorithm and won't automatically activate if it detects a significant change; this pretty much means the motherboard. Though it's agains the licensing, MS activation will generally not question you if you tell them it's a reinstallation on original hardware or hardware replacement due to malfunction (rather than an upgrade).

    If you upgrade every three years or so, it's really cheaper to just buy a new OEM license than try to do Retail.

    Morskittar on
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    FrabbaFrabba Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    LaCabra wrote: »
    If the disk comes to its senses you should be able to just do a repair.

    Disk never came around. To break down exactly as it happened: I had shut down my computer to leave for work in the morning. I come home, turn on my computer, it runs through it's POST, and gets about 5 seconds into the windows boot before it bluescreens and reboots. This loops on for about 15 minutes whie I am playing lost odyssey and not paying attention. So I turn around, and go "what the fuck?". I boot into safe mode, which for some reason is still working. First thing I do is copy all files that Id ont want to lose to my secondary HDD. Run a FSC, nothing found. Chkdsk, nothing found. I say hmm, and reboot my pc. Now I an't even boot into safe mode. Boot up off the vista CD, try a repair, no go, still can't even get into safemode. The PC at this point is bluescreening and rebooting the instant it starts trying to load windows. I boot off the Vista CD again, and try to install onto my old partition. Half an hour later, I'm still at "Expanding files, 0%". Another reboot, boot into the vista installer, and now I notcie that vista isnt even giving me the option to format that HDD, nor did the XP SP2 cd I tried shortly after.

    Looks like my HDD, with it's dying gasps, allowed me to copy off all my documents and pics to my oter hdd, and then went "fuck Frabba". Reinstall went smoothly, and my PC is happily humming away on a fresh RTM install of vista.

    Frabba on
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    BallmanBallman Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    This is a shot in the dark, but I've had my laptop with Vista on it for about 8 months (a Toshiba Satellite, just in case anyone knows anything specific). I typically put the system in standby when I'm leaving work for home, but after doing so, I've probably got a 20-25% chance that Vista will get stuck at some point while resuming the next day. It's really irritating, as all of the work that I left on the desktop either gets lost or I have to go through the various recovery utilities that are offered by the programs I use. Of course, I could just bite the bullet and do a complete shutdown every time, but that seems excessive for day-to-day work, especially when my home laptop (which runs XP Pro) will go into/come out of standby with zero problems (and much more quickly, too).

    Anyone have any thoughts on what could be causing this, or else what I could do to make standby easier for my system?

    Ballman on
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    FaceballMcDougalFaceballMcDougal Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    That's a hardware issue in my experience. We replace/rma laptops that do this at work.

    FaceballMcDougal on
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Are you dual booting with another OS?

    Malkor on
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    BallmanBallman Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    That's a hardware issue in my experience. We replace/rma laptops that do this at work.

    :? Well, I believe I'm way beyond the RMA stage after 8 months. This laptop fucking sucks. Probably 70-75% of the time everything is fine, but sometimes I'll just have infuriatingly arbitrary problems. Once, when I logged into the computer, it couldn't find any of my user data, so it made log in as a guest. Oh hey, next time I restarted, it found my info. Wtf. Programs randomly decide they don't want to work. The computer will randomly (admittedly less often now, after a half-dozen manufacturer updates) bring itself out of standby when it is in my laptop bag and starve itself to death while it's not charging. And of course, going into standby takes a minimum of 5 minutes. If I move the computer before it's finished, it won't go all the way into standby and will deplete the battery before it does anything about it.

    Gah. Next time I get/build a computer, I'm going to give Linux a shot.
    Malkor wrote: »
    Are you dual booting with another OS?

    Nope. I've thought about it, though.

    Ballman on
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    CronusCronus Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Ballman wrote: »
    That's a hardware issue in my experience. We replace/rma laptops that do this at work.

    :? Well, I believe I'm way beyond the RMA stage after 8 months. This laptop fucking sucks. Probably 70-75% of the time everything is fine, but sometimes I'll just have infuriatingly arbitrary problems. Once, when I logged into the computer, it couldn't find any of my user data, so it made log in as a guest. Oh hey, next time I restarted, it found my info. Wtf. Programs randomly decide they don't want to work. The computer will randomly (admittedly less often now, after a half-dozen manufacturer updates) bring itself out of standby when it is in my laptop bag and starve itself to death while it's not charging. And of course, going into standby takes a minimum of 5 minutes. If I move the computer before it's finished, it won't go all the way into standby and will deplete the battery before it does anything about it.

    Gah. Next time I get/build a computer, I'm going to give Linux a shot.
    Malkor wrote: »
    Are you dual booting with another OS?

    Nope. I've thought about it, though.

    Now I know this is from a guy on the Windows team so take it with a grain of salt, but he said that ~90% of Windows crashes, lock ups, and random reboots are because of bad hardware. I don't know if it's actually 90%, but it does make sense with the ability to buy a computer from Dell so cheap it makes sense that they are going to cut corners on something that's not on the box. You'll get 2 gigs of ram, but it will be the cheapest Taiwanese RAM one can find. The same goes for the motherboard.

    The processor and graphics card look good on the side of the box, but Average Joe isn't going to know what a good brand of RAM is, and won't be able to find out as it's never listed. It really sucks for PC gaming and software makers as a whole that the only good way to get a computer is to buy it from a specific vendor you know makes good systems or to build your own.

    Cronus on
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    jonxpjonxp [E] PC Security Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Standby is very hard to write drivers for correctly (meaning there;s a lot of drivers that do poorly at coming out of standby). Try using hibernate instead. Yeah, it takes a smidge longer to shut down and start up than standby, but it's much nicer to the drivers and saves a whole lot more battery (since your laptop is actually off).

    Standby works poorly no matter what your OS is, unless you are using a Mac where all the hardware is a known constant.

    jonxp on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Early Vista materials I saw stated that 90%+ crashes in XP were due to video hardware/drivers, based on those "send information to Microsoft" windows.

    Morskittar on
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    BallmanBallman Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    jonxp wrote: »
    Standby is very hard to write drivers for correctly (meaning there;s a lot of drivers that do poorly at coming out of standby). Try using hibernate instead. Yeah, it takes a smidge longer to shut down and start up than standby, but it's much nicer to the drivers and saves a whole lot more battery (since your laptop is actually off).

    Standby works poorly no matter what your OS is, unless you are using a Mac where all the hardware is a known constant.

    Actually, maybe I am using "hibernate" instead of "standby." (I've heard it called both by different people at different times.) Yes, my computer goes completely off, but it takes roughly 5 minutes to do so. What kills me is that in Vista, the screen goes dark as soon as you select the option, so you can't see what's happening and just have to wait for the lights on the front to go out.

    Really, here's my main issue: On my XP laptop, I got used to putting it to sleep when moving it, with the setting for going into hibernation while in sleep set to something like 10-15 minutes. That way, I could hit sleep (it goes down immediately), pack up, and the computer will go into hibernation in my bag over the next 10 minutes or so. With my Vista laptop, it won't do that, so I have to go straight into hibernation. If I close the machine and put it in my bag, the odds are very good that it will never finish, and will end up killing the battery before I open it again.

    There's a utility that stops the spinning of the hard drive if it detects jostling...I wonder if turning that off would help?

    Ballman on
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    DigDug2000DigDug2000 Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Startup and Shutdown are so much faster in Vista that I'd just avoid the whole "Sleep/Hibernate" options if I were you.

    DigDug2000 on
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    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    That brings up a question I have (sorry if it has been answered earlier). Can I change the behavior of that little power button in the Vista start menu? I really hate that it's a sleep button rather than a shutdown button.

    Bama on
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    stigweardstigweard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    DigDug2000 wrote: »
    Startup and Shutdown are so much faster in Vista that I'd just avoid the whole "Sleep/Hibernate" options if I were you.

    They might be faster, but not nearly fast enough. You can't have your applications open with the files you were working with, or anything else you might have set from a cold boot. I'm spoiled with my ibook. str gives you an instant screen, you can start typing as soon as you take your hand off the lid. I would lose about an hour a day on a busy day, waiting for the system to start up and apps to load if I had to shut it off every time. I

    stigweard on
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    stigweardstigweard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Bama wrote: »
    That brings up a question I have (sorry if it has been answered earlier). Can I change the behavior of that little power button in the Vista start menu? I really hate that it's a sleep button rather than a shutdown button.

    IIRC, you can change it in the advanced power management settings. I don't have Vista installed at the moment, but you can get to it from the power plug task tray icon in the lower right.

    stigweard on
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    My sleep and hibernate work perfectly in Vista and Ubuntu.

    Malkor on
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    BallmanBallman Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    stigweard wrote: »
    DigDug2000 wrote: »
    Startup and Shutdown are so much faster in Vista that I'd just avoid the whole "Sleep/Hibernate" options if I were you.

    They might be faster, but not nearly fast enough. You can't have your applications open with the files you were working with, or anything else you might have set from a cold boot. I'm spoiled with my ibook. str gives you an instant screen, you can start typing as soon as you take your hand off the lid. I would lose about an hour a day on a busy day, waiting for the system to start up and apps to load if I had to shut it off every time. I

    Yeah, this is my main problem. I run several programs at the same time that take forever to load, (and often have a dozen files open on each one), so the idea of hibernate is much more convenient for me. I may switch my power button to "shut down" for a few days, though, to see if it works better for me. I know Vista would be happier anyway, as it's always strong-arming me into restarting due to updates. Thanks to everyone for their advice.

    Ballman on
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    You gotta show Vista who's in charge. Don't be afraid to send it to bed without dessert.

    Malkor on
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    DigDug2000DigDug2000 Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    stigweard wrote: »
    DigDug2000 wrote: »
    Startup and Shutdown are so much faster in Vista that I'd just avoid the whole "Sleep/Hibernate" options if I were you.

    They might be faster, but not nearly fast enough. You can't have your applications open with the files you were working with, or anything else you might have set from a cold boot. I'm spoiled with my ibook. str gives you an instant screen, you can start typing as soon as you take your hand off the lid. I would lose about an hour a day on a busy day, waiting for the system to start up and apps to load if I had to shut it off every time. I
    Heh. Yeah. I forget about such things. To be honest, I don't own (nor need) a notebook so I don't have to deal with sleepy computers very often.

    DigDug2000 on
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    RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Cronus wrote: »
    Now I know this is from a guy on the Windows team so take it with a grain of salt, but he said that ~90% of Windows crashes, lock ups, and random reboots are because of bad hardware. I don't know if it's actually 90%, but it does make sense with the ability to buy a computer from Dell so cheap it makes sense that they are going to cut corners on something that's not on the box. You'll get 2 gigs of ram, but it will be the cheapest Taiwanese RAM one can find. The same goes for the motherboard.

    The processor and graphics card look good on the side of the box, but Average Joe isn't going to know what a good brand of RAM is, and won't be able to find out as it's never listed. It really sucks for PC gaming and software makers as a whole that the only good way to get a computer is to buy it from a specific vendor you know makes good systems or to build your own.

    I took a course by Mark Russinovich (author of Process Explorer and a bunch of other tools) at Microsoft about a year back. They analyzed a bunch of crash reports from Windows XP.

    ~70% are caused by third party driver code
    ~15% are unknown (memory is too corrupted to tell)
    ~10% are caused by hardware issues
    ~5% are caused by Microsoft code

    So chances are that when you get a crash it's due to crappy third-party drivers, not the hardware itself. This is why there's an emphasis on driver quality verification and signing for Vista x64.

    RandomEngy on
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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    I took a course by Mark Russinovich (author of Process Explorer and a bunch of other tools) at Microsoft about a year back.
    That's frickin' awesome. Mark is one hell of a smart guy. He did Process Explorer before sysinternals got bought by MS, so I can only think that with access to the real code he can do some really cool stuff.

    ... Sorry... kinda got a win32 hard-on there... :|

    iTunesIsEvil on
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    CronusCronus Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Cronus wrote: »
    Now I know this is from a guy on the Windows team so take it with a grain of salt, but he said that ~90% of Windows crashes, lock ups, and random reboots are because of bad hardware. I don't know if it's actually 90%, but it does make sense with the ability to buy a computer from Dell so cheap it makes sense that they are going to cut corners on something that's not on the box. You'll get 2 gigs of ram, but it will be the cheapest Taiwanese RAM one can find. The same goes for the motherboard.

    The processor and graphics card look good on the side of the box, but Average Joe isn't going to know what a good brand of RAM is, and won't be able to find out as it's never listed. It really sucks for PC gaming and software makers as a whole that the only good way to get a computer is to buy it from a specific vendor you know makes good systems or to build your own.

    I took a course by Mark Russinovich (author of Process Explorer and a bunch of other tools) at Microsoft about a year back. They analyzed a bunch of crash reports from Windows XP.

    ~70% are caused by third party driver code
    ~15% are unknown (memory is too corrupted to tell)
    ~10% are caused by hardware issues
    ~5% are caused by Microsoft code

    So chances are that when you get a crash it's due to crappy third-party drivers, not the hardware itself. This is why there's an emphasis on driver quality verification and signing for Vista x64.


    That's very interesting. I wonder what the percentages are for crashes during games?

    Cronus on
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    jonxpjonxp [E] PC Security Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Cronus wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Cronus wrote: »
    Now I know this is from a guy on the Windows team so take it with a grain of salt, but he said that ~90% of Windows crashes, lock ups, and random reboots are because of bad hardware. I don't know if it's actually 90%, but it does make sense with the ability to buy a computer from Dell so cheap it makes sense that they are going to cut corners on something that's not on the box. You'll get 2 gigs of ram, but it will be the cheapest Taiwanese RAM one can find. The same goes for the motherboard.

    The processor and graphics card look good on the side of the box, but Average Joe isn't going to know what a good brand of RAM is, and won't be able to find out as it's never listed. It really sucks for PC gaming and software makers as a whole that the only good way to get a computer is to buy it from a specific vendor you know makes good systems or to build your own.

    I took a course by Mark Russinovich (author of Process Explorer and a bunch of other tools) at Microsoft about a year back. They analyzed a bunch of crash reports from Windows XP.

    ~70% are caused by third party driver code
    ~15% are unknown (memory is too corrupted to tell)
    ~10% are caused by hardware issues
    ~5% are caused by Microsoft code

    So chances are that when you get a crash it's due to crappy third-party drivers, not the hardware itself. This is why there's an emphasis on driver quality verification and signing for Vista x64.


    That's very interesting. I wonder what the percentages are for crashes during games?

    They're probably talking about system, not application, crashes. A system crash during a game is likely the result of a hardware/driver issue because it's "touching" calls that normally don't get used and have less real world use to have bugs found.

    jonxp on
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    xWonderboyxxWonderboyx Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I'm having a really odd issue. My little network connection icon in the taskbar says I'm not connected. When I mouse over it, it says, "Connection status: unknown. Server execution failed." However, I am actually connected to my network. My other computer can see me, and access the drive I have shared out. While it doesn't necessarily affect my connection or performance, it's just something that bothers me a little bit for aesthetic reasons.

    For some info I'm on a Sony Vaio VGN-SZ430N (laptop) running Vista Business x86 on a wireless network using a netgear something or other that has never given me problems before. Recently (as early as a few hours ago) some problem was cropping up with some hidden Vaio bullshit, so I disabled it all (have yet to uninstall) from starting up so the process that was causing the problem (presumably) initially is no longer a factor.

    Edit: Also, when the problem first cropped up, Vista diagnosed the problem and had me download a hotfix. This was when I first noticed I had connection despite the icon telling me otherwise. I downloaded and installed the fix, but don't really know what it did.

    And now it seems that while my Network and Sharing page will load (after some time), I cannot actually do anything within it. Everything else in the system works exactly as it should. Anything dealing with the network just shits itself (other than the internet).

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    DHS OdiumDHS Odium Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I'm having a really odd issue. My little network connection icon in the taskbar says I'm not connected. When I mouse over it, it says, "Connection status: unknown. Server execution failed." However, I am actually connected to my network. My other computer can see me, and access the drive I have shared out. While it doesn't necessarily affect my connection or performance, it's just something that bothers me a little bit for aesthetic reasons.

    For some info I'm on a Sony Vaio VGN-SZ430N (laptop) running Vista Business x86 on a wireless network using a netgear something or other that has never given me problems before. Recently (as early as a few hours ago) some problem was cropping up with some hidden Vaio bullshit, so I disabled it all (have yet to uninstall) from starting up so the process that was causing the problem (presumably) initially is no longer a factor.

    Edit: Also, when the problem first cropped up, Vista diagnosed the problem and had me download a hotfix. This was when I first noticed I had connection despite the icon telling me otherwise. I downloaded and installed the fix, but don't really know what it did.

    Ha. My friend literally had this exact same problem with a Vaio a week ago. He did find a fix through google, it involved going into some options/properties and changing some setting. Don't know exactly but he typed the error into google and found an answer within a few minutes.

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    xWonderboyxxWonderboyx Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    DHS Odium wrote: »
    I'm having a really odd issue. My little network connection icon in the taskbar says I'm not connected. When I mouse over it, it says, "Connection status: unknown. Server execution failed." However, I am actually connected to my network. My other computer can see me, and access the drive I have shared out. While it doesn't necessarily affect my connection or performance, it's just something that bothers me a little bit for aesthetic reasons.

    For some info I'm on a Sony Vaio VGN-SZ430N (laptop) running Vista Business x86 on a wireless network using a netgear something or other that has never given me problems before. Recently (as early as a few hours ago) some problem was cropping up with some hidden Vaio bullshit, so I disabled it all (have yet to uninstall) from starting up so the process that was causing the problem (presumably) initially is no longer a factor.

    Edit: Also, when the problem first cropped up, Vista diagnosed the problem and had me download a hotfix. This was when I first noticed I had connection despite the icon telling me otherwise. I downloaded and installed the fix, but don't really know what it did.

    Ha. My friend literally had this exact same problem with a Vaio a week ago. He did find a fix through google, it involved going into some options/properties and changing some setting. Don't know exactly but he typed the error into google and found an answer within a few minutes.

    That's amazing. Looking now.

    Also to note, this is a fresh "install." Sony was kind enough not to include any discs with the system so I was left with the restore partition which just makes it like I just bought the damn thing, shit software and all.

    Edit: From my searchings, it appears to generally be related to running some instant messaging software (in my case, AIM), and actually the problem cropped up about the time I installed the devil program (my wife uses it).

    And I just discovered my sound doesn't work. Odd.

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    xWonderboyxxWonderboyx Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I just tried this:

    "Right. Perhaps the software licensing service has been stopped from starting for some reason. Try this: Start -> Run -> services.msc -> Look for SL UI Notification Services and ensure it is set to automatic and is started."

    It then says" Windows could not start the SL UI Notification Service on Local Computer. Error 1068: the dependency service or group failed to start."

    This most undoubtedly relates to the turning off of that Vaio bullshit, and possibly to AIM.

    xWonderboyx on
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