The only classes I haven't played much are Shaman and Hunter (no interest in class), the others I took to 40+. Raided with a warlock through MC and then just got burned out. We're taking a much more relaxed approach this go around.
I imagine it is like it has always been, the good make do and the bad complain.
Warlocks are awesome fun. Knob in SE++ has spend months hating on WoW, then rolled a warlock and is loving it.
They are arguably the best 5man tanks in the game, definitely equal in 10man raids, and still very useful for fights in 25mans, and can substitute as MTs if gear/skill are good enough.
Their main strength is that they are AOE tanks, so there is little need for CC in 5man instances, hence, AOE classes love them. A Paladin will run into a group of 5 mobs, and provided they can survive the hits, will effortlessly tank all five. A Warrior could tank maybe two using tab targeting Sunders, then will need 3 forms of CC on the last three, or extra tanks.
Their only concern is mana. Because of this they make terrible offtanks. They have a talent which restores mana based on healing received. If they are taking no damage they get no heals, offtanks don't take much damage.
As healers they are some of the best main-tank healers, and as Retribution, they can put out some impressive DPS. Not on the level of warriors or rogues, but impressive nonetheless, and they bring extra buffs and auras.
Their only concern is mana. Because of this they make terrible offtanks. They have a talent which restores mana based on healing received. If they are taking no damage they get no heals, offtanks don't take much damage.
Depending on how you define "offtank". Hitting a mob and trying to remain #2 on its aggro list while otherwise taking no damage, they don't do that well (it's hard for warriors and druids, too, but they at least don't NEED to get hurt to build rage). Tanking a boss's add and holding on to it as a form of CC, they do that just fine.
SabreMau on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Their only concern is mana. Because of this they make terrible offtanks. They have a talent which restores mana based on healing received. If they are taking no damage they get no heals, offtanks don't take much damage.
Depending on how you define "offtank". Hitting a mob and trying to remain #2 on its aggro list while otherwise taking no damage, they don't do that well (it's hard for warriors and druids, too, but they at least don't NEED to get hurt to build rage). Tanking a boss's add and holding on to it as a form of CC, they do that just fine.
True, but its almost always better to have the Paladin tank the boss, gear permitting, more damage means longer holding onto them.
Some bosses adds do comparable damage to the boss but most don't. When we run Kara for badge runs, our paladin tanks Midnight and Attumen simultaneously. We have two feral druids and two warrior tanks, but its easier just to let the paladin tank both because we vastly outgear the instance and he goes out of mana at about 50%.
Also, when are you going to get back to your damn FS RP shit.
You horrible faggot.
I've been waiting a year.
I hate you.
Ravenholdt, you say?
Hmmm...
As for the other thing.... It isn't something I want to discuss here.
Mainly because everyone here would be bored stiff, and it would fuck up the flow of the WoW discussion.
My problem is that if I switch to Horde on Ravenholdt, I'd have to start off at barefuckingnakednothingshitforshitnadafuckallzerozilchpisant. My only Horde character is kind of reserved for a friend/family thing I do on another server.
On that other subject...I will PM you.
Pkmoutl on
0
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Their only concern is mana. Because of this they make terrible offtanks. They have a talent which restores mana based on healing received. If they are taking no damage they get no heals, offtanks don't take much damage.
Depending on how you define "offtank". Hitting a mob and trying to remain #2 on its aggro list while otherwise taking no damage, they don't do that well (it's hard for warriors and druids, too, but they at least don't NEED to get hurt to build rage). Tanking a boss's add and holding on to it as a form of CC, they do that just fine.
You can hold number two but you have to be willing to make some sacrifices and burn consumables. You have to shift into spell damage gear.
Things that help:
Dark runes
Flame caps.
Engineering explosives.
Dark runes and flame caps share a cooldown. But Darkrunes can be very, very nice for maintaining mana. For most fights that need a second OT the reason you need them is to soak an ability and those don't crush (ala Hateful strikes).
Thomamelas on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Their only concern is mana. Because of this they make terrible offtanks. They have a talent which restores mana based on healing received. If they are taking no damage they get no heals, offtanks don't take much damage.
Depending on how you define "offtank". Hitting a mob and trying to remain #2 on its aggro list while otherwise taking no damage, they don't do that well (it's hard for warriors and druids, too, but they at least don't NEED to get hurt to build rage). Tanking a boss's add and holding on to it as a form of CC, they do that just fine.
You can hold number two but you have to be willing to make some sacrifices and burn consumables. You have to shift into spell damage gear.
Things that help:
Dark runes
Flame caps.
Engineering explosives.
Dark runes and flame caps share a cooldown. But Darkrunes can be very, very nice for maintaining mana. For most fights that need a second OT the reason you need them is to soak an ability and those don't crush (ala Hateful strikes).
Which is why its just far easier, as I said, gear permitting, for the paladin to MT.
Its no harder for a Paladin to be uncrushable than a warrior, in fact...IIRC, its actually easier for paladins, because Holy Shield has more charges.
Its no harder for a Paladin to be uncrushable than a warrior, in fact...IIRC, its actually easier for paladins, because Holy Shield has more charges.
Well, yes and no. A warrior with no gear on other than a shield can hit Shield Block and have enough total miss+dodge+parry+block to not take any crushing blows. So it's easier for them to reach uncrushable in the first place, but once the paladin makes up the 45% difference between Holy Shield and Shield Block, they have an easier time maintaining uncrushable through multiple blocks.
SabreMau on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Its no harder for a Paladin to be uncrushable than a warrior, in fact...IIRC, its actually easier for paladins, because Holy Shield has more charges.
Well, yes and no. A warrior with no gear on other than a shield can hit Shield Block and have enough total miss+dodge+parry+block to not take any crushing blows. So it's easier for them to reach uncrushable in the first place, but once the paladin makes up the 45% difference between Holy Shield and Shield Block, they have an easier time maintaining uncrushable through multiple blocks.
yeah thats what I mean, paladins work harder to achieve uncrushable, but once they do, uncrushable is maintained with relatively little effort.
tanking on a warrior seems to require total focus, all the time, constantly, whereas with a paladin it SEEMS that you can just hit holy shield whenever its up and you'll block until the cooldown is up.
Dhalphir on
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2008
Paladins have a little bit to worry about in rotation and CDs, so it can be a little more difficult. Shield Block has no GCD, so its easier in that respect.
But warriors never achieve uncrushable, they can just gain it temporarilly and usually it combines with other stats to make it seem like it.
Kai_San on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
Well if you're looking at it that way, true, but then paladins don't "get" uncrushable either. Without Holy Shield or Redoubt they can't be uncrushable.
For some reason I misread this as "Are paladins still generally passive tanks?," because I'm illiterate, or something.
But I definitely agree with the sentiment you didn't express about how pally tanking is definitely less frenetic than warrior tanking; pallies just kind of throw up Holy Shield and let the mob wail on 'em, where warriors are mashing Shield Slam and Devastate, while making sure to never let Shield Block fall off, and maintaining debuffs like Thunder Clap and Demo Shout.
I've done both, though admittedly only warrior tanking at the raid level, and warrior tanking is by far the more demanding of the two. Pallytanking probably falls into the medium slot, with baretanking being the easiest of the three -- shit, you can just turn your big bare ass around on the mob and still fare about the same. :P
Pally tanks are just keeping up Holy Shield, Consecrate and Seal/Judgement of Vengeance/Righteousness, unless I've forgotten something.
Hamurabi on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
But warriors never achieve uncrushable, they can just gain it temporarilly and usually it combines with other stats to make it seem like it.
Actually, it IS possible for warriors to build a pure avoidance set that would render them passively uncrushable. Takes ~T6 level items, and it's not useful for everyday tanking, but it can be done.
But warriors never achieve uncrushable, they can just gain it temporarilly and usually it combines with other stats to make it seem like it.
Actually, it IS possible for warriors to build a pure avoidance set that would render them passively uncrushable. Takes ~T6 level items, and it's not useful for everyday tanking, but it can be done.
yeah, saw an armory awhile back of a warrior that was uncrushable without shield block, used alot of dodge gems so he only had 17800 hp or something, but he tanked illidan multiple times so it wasn't a big deal.
Minerva_SC on
"If a cherry pie filled cape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
I'm dead serious."
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
what would a WWS parse of something like that even look like?
Reroll your hunter? All classes are gear dependent, but you'll notice the physical DPS have a lot more riding on it. Hunters don't have it as bad because ammo helps out, but man, levelling a Rogue with a low level weapon suuuuuuucks
Soviet Waffle on
League of Legends: Studio
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Unless they also stack an impossible ammount of shield block value they'll be taking damage, just not much :P
ah of course, blocks only block what, 100 damage of a 4k incoming hit?
but if a crushing blow is going to be blocked, rather than it doing crush damage minus block value, it doesn't crush and is just normal
so i imagine a tank tanking SSC would only be taking damage from blocks, never a full unmitigated hit
At that level of gear, more like 500 damage off a 4k incoming hit. My block value ranges around 300-400, depending on which gear I equip.
And yeah, any hit from a boss needs to be a block, or there's a chance it could have crushed instead, for 1.5x normal damage.
or a miss or dodge, mirite?
Or a parry.
OH HO HO FORGETTING SOMETHING MR. TANK MAN?
considering im asking these questions :P
although paladin tanking aye is fun .
Fun and easy. No button mashing, no complicated rotation, just use your cooldowns as needed. Paladin tanking really is relaxing when it needs to be. (That's just for generating threat of course, actual tanking being much uh... tankier)
Unless they also stack an impossible ammount of shield block value they'll be taking damage, just not much :P
ah of course, blocks only block what, 100 damage of a 4k incoming hit?
but if a crushing blow is going to be blocked, rather than it doing crush damage minus block value, it doesn't crush and is just normal
so i imagine a tank tanking SSC would only be taking damage from blocks, never a full unmitigated hit
At that level of gear, more like 500 damage off a 4k incoming hit. My block value ranges around 300-400, depending on which gear I equip.
And yeah, any hit from a boss needs to be a block, or there's a chance it could have crushed instead, for 1.5x normal damage.
or a miss or dodge, mirite?
Or a parry.
OH HO HO FORGETTING SOMETHING MR. TANK MAN?
Anything that hits you from a boss, then. There's "hits you for ____" and "hits you for ____ (___ blocked)". Ideally, you want every melee strike that hits you to be the latter. If it's the former, that means there's a chance it could have crushed instead.
So if a guild in Kara recruits a guy who was in a BT guild and has gear from Illidan it will list the guild BT having killed Illidan. So basically there might be a person in the guild who has gear from one of those bosses but nobody else, for whatever reason, has gear from the bosses leading up to it.
It's also possible the loot from the previous boss was either DE'd or was stored in backpack at the time Armory was scanned.
WoWjutsu keeps track of gear if you switch guild, so gear you got while in Guild X won't show up for Guild Y.
It is however possible for it to happen if you switch guilds before WoWjutsu scans your armory. That's how we ended up with a Morogrim kill.
And we still haven't gotten Halazzi registered as a kill after two+ weeks. Wear your robe, silly warlock!
But I definitely agree with the sentiment you didn't express about how pally tanking is definitely less frenetic than warrior tanking; pallies just kind of throw up Holy Shield and let the mob wail on 'em, where warriors are mashing Shield Slam and Devastate, while making sure to never let Shield Block fall off, and maintaining debuffs like Thunder Clap and Demo Shout.
When our MT speaks on vent during fights we hear his frenetic button-mashing for his macros. :P
He also has a 70 paladin that he likes to tank 5-mans with because it's just so much easier than as a warrior, even though the warrior has epics coming out the ass and the paladin is in mostly blues.
Echo on
0
ClaymanDon't be a baked potato. Be a person.Registered Userregular
When our MT speaks on vent during fights we hear his frenetic button-mashing for his macros. :P
He also has a 70 paladin that he likes to tank 5-mans with because it's just so much easier than as a warrior, even though the warrior has epics coming out the ass and the paladin is in mostly blues.
Well, while tanking as a warrior you have a lot to take care of. Step one: make sure that Thunder Clap, Demo Shout, Commanding Shout and Shield Block is up at all times. Step two: maintain a good threat cycle like: Shield Slam, Revenge, 2xDevastate and then use Heroic Strike as a rage dump as often as you can.
All that is me main tanking raid bosses. I usually speed run Shattered Halls heroic for some fun as well. Yes, I think tanking six mobs at the same time as a warrior is fun, but a different kind of fun compared to the fun you have while tanking loads of mobs at the same time as a paladin.
(Hello btw, I'm the one who keeps Echo on a short leach).
Clayman on
0
Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Reroll your hunter? All classes are gear dependent, but you'll notice the physical DPS have a lot more riding on it. Hunters don't have it as bad because ammo helps out, but man, levelling a Rogue with a low level weapon suuuuuuucks
So if a guild in Kara recruits a guy who was in a BT guild and has gear from Illidan it will list the guild BT having killed Illidan. So basically there might be a person in the guild who has gear from one of those bosses but nobody else, for whatever reason, has gear from the bosses leading up to it.
It's also possible the loot from the previous boss was either DE'd or was stored in backpack at the time Armory was scanned.
WoWjutsu keeps track of gear if you switch guild, so gear you got while in Guild X won't show up for Guild Y.
It is however possible for it to happen if you switch guilds before WoWjutsu scans your armory. That's how we ended up with a Morogrim kill.
And we still haven't gotten Halazzi registered as a kill after two+ weeks. Wear your robe, silly warlock!
edit: oops, messed up quote tree.
Yeah the only other way it can get fucked up badly is server transfers, it doesn't know how to tell that a character with a new name on a new server already had that gear.
And it took us weeks to get Halazzi credit too. Myself and a mage were logging out in that stupid robe all the time to try to fix it.
Nintendo Network: WarrenMSP 3DS: 4184-2362-9697 PSN: Skywarrd
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Also, when are you going to get back to your damn FS RP shit.
You horrible faggot.
I've been waiting a year.
I hate you.
Ravenholdt, you say?
Hmmm...
As for the other thing.... It isn't something I want to discuss here.
Mainly because everyone here would be bored stiff, and it would fuck up the flow of the WoW discussion.
My problem is that if I switch to Horde on Ravenholdt, I'd have to start off at barefuckingnakednothingshitforshitnadafuckallzerozilchpisant. My only Horde character is kind of reserved for a friend/family thing I do on another server.
On that other subject...I will PM you.
Yeah but
I'd help you out.
buddy
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
What the hell? Why would you use anything other than a Clefthide Leg Armor for some low level twinking equipment?
I once saw [Club] with Fiery Weapon on it.
...yeah
There used to be a guy on Feathermoon in overalls and wide brimmed hat with a Farmer's Broom enchanted with the old spellpower enchant running around Westfall. I'd be leveling an alt, pull to much, and this guy comes running out of nowhere to smack shit down with the broom and save me.
Posts
Warlocks are awesome fun. Knob in SE++ has spend months hating on WoW, then rolled a warlock and is loving it.
As a quote...
Something that you probably won't have experienced much, if at all, pre-BC, is Paladins tanking. Well, they do it now.
And do it damn well too.
And its just as fun as DPSing, in my opinion, perhaps even more so.
Not like warrior tanking. Ew.
No.
They are arguably the best 5man tanks in the game, definitely equal in 10man raids, and still very useful for fights in 25mans, and can substitute as MTs if gear/skill are good enough.
Their main strength is that they are AOE tanks, so there is little need for CC in 5man instances, hence, AOE classes love them. A Paladin will run into a group of 5 mobs, and provided they can survive the hits, will effortlessly tank all five. A Warrior could tank maybe two using tab targeting Sunders, then will need 3 forms of CC on the last three, or extra tanks.
Their only concern is mana. Because of this they make terrible offtanks. They have a talent which restores mana based on healing received. If they are taking no damage they get no heals, offtanks don't take much damage.
As healers they are some of the best main-tank healers, and as Retribution, they can put out some impressive DPS. Not on the level of warriors or rogues, but impressive nonetheless, and they bring extra buffs and auras.
True, but its almost always better to have the Paladin tank the boss, gear permitting, more damage means longer holding onto them.
Some bosses adds do comparable damage to the boss but most don't. When we run Kara for badge runs, our paladin tanks Midnight and Attumen simultaneously. We have two feral druids and two warrior tanks, but its easier just to let the paladin tank both because we vastly outgear the instance and he goes out of mana at about 50%.
Ravenholdt, you say?
Hmmm...
As for the other thing.... It isn't something I want to discuss here.
Mainly because everyone here would be bored stiff, and it would fuck up the flow of the WoW discussion.
My problem is that if I switch to Horde on Ravenholdt, I'd have to start off at barefuckingnakednothingshitforshitnadafuckallzerozilchpisant. My only Horde character is kind of reserved for a friend/family thing I do on another server.
On that other subject...I will PM you.
You can hold number two but you have to be willing to make some sacrifices and burn consumables. You have to shift into spell damage gear.
Things that help:
Dark runes
Flame caps.
Engineering explosives.
Dark runes and flame caps share a cooldown. But Darkrunes can be very, very nice for maintaining mana. For most fights that need a second OT the reason you need them is to soak an ability and those don't crush (ala Hateful strikes).
Which is why its just far easier, as I said, gear permitting, for the paladin to MT.
Its no harder for a Paladin to be uncrushable than a warrior, in fact...IIRC, its actually easier for paladins, because Holy Shield has more charges.
yeah thats what I mean, paladins work harder to achieve uncrushable, but once they do, uncrushable is maintained with relatively little effort.
tanking on a warrior seems to require total focus, all the time, constantly, whereas with a paladin it SEEMS that you can just hit holy shield whenever its up and you'll block until the cooldown is up.
But warriors never achieve uncrushable, they can just gain it temporarilly and usually it combines with other stats to make it seem like it.
For some reason I misread this as "Are paladins still generally passive tanks?," because I'm illiterate, or something.
But I definitely agree with the sentiment you didn't express about how pally tanking is definitely less frenetic than warrior tanking; pallies just kind of throw up Holy Shield and let the mob wail on 'em, where warriors are mashing Shield Slam and Devastate, while making sure to never let Shield Block fall off, and maintaining debuffs like Thunder Clap and Demo Shout.
I've done both, though admittedly only warrior tanking at the raid level, and warrior tanking is by far the more demanding of the two. Pallytanking probably falls into the medium slot, with baretanking being the easiest of the three -- shit, you can just turn your big bare ass around on the mob and still fare about the same. :P
Pally tanks are just keeping up Holy Shield, Consecrate and Seal/Judgement of Vengeance/Righteousness, unless I've forgotten something.
Actually, it IS possible for warriors to build a pure avoidance set that would render them passively uncrushable. Takes ~T6 level items, and it's not useful for everyday tanking, but it can be done.
yeah, saw an armory awhile back of a warrior that was uncrushable without shield block, used alot of dodge gems so he only had 17800 hp or something, but he tanked illidan multiple times so it wasn't a big deal.
I'm dead serious."
WOuld you even need a healer?
Dodge doge dodge block parry dodge parry parry dodge block dodge block block block parry dodge block parry?
Unless they also stack an impossible ammount of shield block value they'll be taking damage, just not much :P
ah of course, blocks only block what, 100 damage of a 4k incoming hit?
but if a crushing blow is going to be blocked, rather than it doing crush damage minus block value, it doesn't crush and is just normal
so i imagine a tank tanking SSC would only be taking damage from blocks, never a full unmitigated hit
Enhancement Shamans are very gear dependent.
And yeah, any hit from a boss needs to be a block, or there's a chance it could have crushed instead, for 1.5x normal damage.
Reroll your hunter? All classes are gear dependent, but you'll notice the physical DPS have a lot more riding on it. Hunters don't have it as bad because ammo helps out, but man, levelling a Rogue with a low level weapon suuuuuuucks
or a miss or dodge, mirite?
Or a parry.
OH HO HO FORGETTING SOMETHING MR. TANK MAN?
considering im asking these questions :P
although paladin tanking aye is fun .
Fun and easy. No button mashing, no complicated rotation, just use your cooldowns as needed. Paladin tanking really is relaxing when it needs to be. (That's just for generating threat of course, actual tanking being much uh... tankier)
Anything that hits you from a boss, then. There's "hits you for ____" and "hits you for ____ (___ blocked)". Ideally, you want every melee strike that hits you to be the latter. If it's the former, that means there's a chance it could have crushed instead.
It is however possible for it to happen if you switch guilds before WoWjutsu scans your armory. That's how we ended up with a Morogrim kill.
And we still haven't gotten Halazzi registered as a kill after two+ weeks. Wear your robe, silly warlock!
edit: oops, messed up quote tree.
When our MT speaks on vent during fights we hear his frenetic button-mashing for his macros. :P
He also has a 70 paladin that he likes to tank 5-mans with because it's just so much easier than as a warrior, even though the warrior has epics coming out the ass and the paladin is in mostly blues.
Well, while tanking as a warrior you have a lot to take care of. Step one: make sure that Thunder Clap, Demo Shout, Commanding Shout and Shield Block is up at all times. Step two: maintain a good threat cycle like: Shield Slam, Revenge, 2xDevastate and then use Heroic Strike as a rage dump as often as you can.
All that is me main tanking raid bosses. I usually speed run Shattered Halls heroic for some fun as well. Yes, I think tanking six mobs at the same time as a warrior is fun, but a different kind of fun compared to the fun you have while tanking loads of mobs at the same time as a paladin.
(Hello btw, I'm the one who keeps Echo on a short leach).
No no, I understand. But, still.
Yeah the only other way it can get fucked up badly is server transfers, it doesn't know how to tell that a character with a new name on a new server already had that gear.
And it took us weeks to get Halazzi credit too. Myself and a mage were logging out in that stupid robe all the time to try to fix it.
What the hell? Why would you use anything other than a Clefthide Leg Armor for some low level twinking equipment?
I would enjoy lots of useless stats. (I used to have Theorycraft installed back when it worked, that was glorious)
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
Yeah but
I'd help you out.
buddy
I once saw [Club] with Fiery Weapon on it.
...yeah
Steam: pazython
There used to be a guy on Feathermoon in overalls and wide brimmed hat with a Farmer's Broom enchanted with the old spellpower enchant running around Westfall. I'd be leveling an alt, pull to much, and this guy comes running out of nowhere to smack shit down with the broom and save me.