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Trial By Facebook
sdrawkcaB emaN
regular
regular
So, this news item popped up from my hometown of Portland, OR. Specifically the story comes from Lewis and Clark college, so Medopine would probably know more about it than I do.
Anyway, first, the article
I have slightly mixed feelings about this. It seems clear that if Hunter’s allegations are true, she was sexually assaulted/raped, and thus Fox deserves appropriate punishment. On the other hand, there is an element of vigilantism in the way attention was brought to the issue. Certainly if the allegations were false, the facebook group could be considered libelous.
Now, in this particular instance, as with all accusations, I’m inclined to believe the victim because false accusations are statistically non-existent. That’s not what I want this thread to be about. We’ve had that dicussion before and if you’re afraid of false accusations then just exercise some common sense, be more cautious, and don’t try to have anonymous sex with crazy people. Also get over your castration complex.
But that doesn’t necessarily make the actions of the facebook group students acceptable, to my mind. At the end of the day we do still have a system which presumes innocence until due process leads to conviction. There are several factors to weigh that could legitimize the students’ use of extra-legal means to bring attention to Shaw-Fox, however.
(1) The low rate of report. In this particular case, we see the larger trend that the traumatic experience of sexual assault and the stigma attached by society to victims, as well as the extremely low conviction rate, all contribute to a very low incidence of reporting rape. Most victims stay silent, as Hunter did (except anonymously) until the facebook group prodded her to bring her complaints officially.
(2) The low incidence of conviction. The standards for consent in America force the victim to not only prove who, what, where, when, but also a lack of consent. In effect, this would be like if murder cases presumed self-defense, unless the killing was proven to be a murder. Thus there is a double burden of proof on rape victims.
(3) The probability that Shaw-Fox would assault again. He had a reputation for these actions around campus, and by letting the issue drop, there is a risk presented that he would reoffend.
I’m not sure what to think, but instinctively I side with the students because the official system is flawed, and being a nerd I’ve clearly got a romantic idea of vigilante justice. :P
But seriously, the problems presented by the status quo do seem (in my mind) to call for action outside the official norms. Thoughts?
Anyway, first, the article
Willamette Weekly wrote:One week after the alleged assault, Hunter wrote an anonymous letter to the editor of the student newspaper, The Pioneer Log , where she was on staff.
In it, she alleged a “well-known, well-respected young man” assaulted her days earlier.
She did not name Shaw-Fox. And without offering any additional evidence, she wrote “there were at least a half-dozen other female students on campus that have complained of similar behavior from this man.”
She wrote that she had naively believed Lewis&Clark was safe. ...
Another portion of her letter was directed to her assaulter:
“I have been told that the other women you’ve mistreated and I are entitled to pursue your expulsion from LC,” she wrote. “You are damn lucky that, at this moment, I am not. You deserve to have your filthy, disrespectful ass kicked out of this school, you insolent son of a bitch.”
A week later, The Pioneer Log published a letter in response from the college’s coordinator for the Sexual Assault Response Network, an associate dean of students and the director of campus safety, encouraging the letter writer to file a formal complaint with the college.
Instead, she waited.
On Nov. 12, Calli Bishop, a junior studying anthropology and gender studies, was in the Womyn’s Center drinking wine with several other female students, she says.
Hunter’s anonymous letter to the editor was still a hot topic on campus, especially at the Womyn’s Center, a room in the campus center where students can seek confidential counsel from other students.
“We were talking about the letter,” Bishop says. Then someone in the room revealed she’d learned the name of the guy who had allegedly assaulted Hunter.
“We all knew him and we were livid,” Bishop says. “We felt something needed to be said.”
It was around 3 am at the time, and they decided to do something that was both thoroughly modern and rooted in a long history of radical feminist tactics. They decided to warn other women away from Shaw-Fox.
“I didn’t know if he was going to be charged,” Bishop says. “I didn’t know if the school would do anything, but I didn’t care what the law said. I knew that he had committed violent acts. If the law wasn’t going to do anything, I would. There’s a point where you have to take your lives and the lives of others into your own hands and fight for justice.”
That night, the women created the Facebook group. It named Shaw-Fox as the subject of Hunter’s letter, featured a photograph of him without a shirt (taken from his own Facebook page), and carried a message that told women to stay away from him.
Since it was created as a “secret” group on Facebook, students had to be invited to it before they could see the contents online.
What Bishop did not know when she created the secret Facebook group was that its unsubstantiated name, “Morgan Shaw-Fox is a Piece of Shit Rapist,” would pop up elsewhere on Facebook, even with the blocks in place. ...
I have slightly mixed feelings about this. It seems clear that if Hunter’s allegations are true, she was sexually assaulted/raped, and thus Fox deserves appropriate punishment. On the other hand, there is an element of vigilantism in the way attention was brought to the issue. Certainly if the allegations were false, the facebook group could be considered libelous.
Now, in this particular instance, as with all accusations, I’m inclined to believe the victim because false accusations are statistically non-existent. That’s not what I want this thread to be about. We’ve had that dicussion before and if you’re afraid of false accusations then just exercise some common sense, be more cautious, and don’t try to have anonymous sex with crazy people. Also get over your castration complex.
But that doesn’t necessarily make the actions of the facebook group students acceptable, to my mind. At the end of the day we do still have a system which presumes innocence until due process leads to conviction. There are several factors to weigh that could legitimize the students’ use of extra-legal means to bring attention to Shaw-Fox, however.
(1) The low rate of report. In this particular case, we see the larger trend that the traumatic experience of sexual assault and the stigma attached by society to victims, as well as the extremely low conviction rate, all contribute to a very low incidence of reporting rape. Most victims stay silent, as Hunter did (except anonymously) until the facebook group prodded her to bring her complaints officially.
(2) The low incidence of conviction. The standards for consent in America force the victim to not only prove who, what, where, when, but also a lack of consent. In effect, this would be like if murder cases presumed self-defense, unless the killing was proven to be a murder. Thus there is a double burden of proof on rape victims.
(3) The probability that Shaw-Fox would assault again. He had a reputation for these actions around campus, and by letting the issue drop, there is a risk presented that he would reoffend.
I’m not sure what to think, but instinctively I side with the students because the official system is flawed, and being a nerd I’ve clearly got a romantic idea of vigilante justice. :P
But seriously, the problems presented by the status quo do seem (in my mind) to call for action outside the official norms. Thoughts?
sdrawkcaB emaN on
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edit: so what did the rapist actually do?
https://medium.com/@alascii
Like, how the fuck did they get into higher education stupid.
See now this is some prime discourse.
There is just all kinds of warrants and evidence behind the claims here for me to argue.
Yeah.
People who live in glass houses shouldn’t be such fucking retards
Imma go out on a limb and say he raped someone.
but the girl didn't go to the police?
https://medium.com/@alascii
The short version is a guy and girl both get drunk, start making out, get naked, and he forces her to perform oral on him.
The guy has not been convicted of a crime (and most likely will not in this case). He has been punished by the school, but he says he plans to appeal.
While victim's of sexual assault need all the support they can get, libel campaigns don't seem to be the best way to do this. They certainly work in creating consequences for the perpetraitor, but they are hardly precise or just.
Not to be off topic, but dear god do I hate this.
Guy forcing you to do a gagging blowjob... very not cool...as in peice of shit abuser...not really clear on if its rape or not.
I mean, this is the oral equivalent of a guy suddenly going anal when doing doggy style.
I doubt its suddenly rape, I'm not sure if you could classify it as assault, though perhaps thats the closest you could get.
What do you charge someone with if they dont stop with the safety word in S&M games? Can you charge them with anything?
MWO: Adamski
my, what a rare occurrence.
while I don't necessarily agree with what the women did, I think it does speak a lot to how sexual assault is treated, and with the rise in social networking, this is likely only going to get worse.
Are you fucking kidding me? If he forced her to do ANYTHING then is is by definition RAPE.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Yet even with this 'double burden' rape trials that go to court are more likely to get a conviction then murder.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/camilla_cavendish/article2963335.ece
Also, that 'double burden' is there for a reason. Sex isn't a crime, lack of consent is. The only reasonable way we can work it. Do you seriously think every time a woman (or man) claims rape that we should reverse the most basic and key tennent of justice and have the accused have to prove their innocence? Do you realise how bloody retarded this idea is?
Surely if he has done similar things to multiple girls he can't get away with it?
https://medium.com/@alascii
Why can't he get away with it? Sexual assault is vastly unreported, and when it does get reported, the victim is usually the one on trial...
Its important to establish ground rules prior to S&M play, since it generally takes classical definitions and turns them on their head. (Beatings / Bondage / Humiliation / etc.)
I would love to see a proper court case on this with competent lawyers and an even minded judge.
I agree what was done was wrong, I just have trouble appending the rape tag to it, and apparently the girl did as well since she didnt go to police until forced by peer pressue, and neither did the guy because he is appealing the decision.
I think this is going to be another one of those landmark things where people will say: "Hey, I never really thought this could happen, I guess we need to make a law to clarify what this is."
MWO: Adamski
Who gives a shit? If somebody doesn't want it, then it's rape.
gee, I wonder if mutual consent makes any difference in S&M practices...
well, not to you apparently, but to the average person I'm sure it does.
In the article she calls it 'gray rape' which I don't know what the hell that is, but yeah, even the victim in this case is reluctant to call it rape.
https://medium.com/@alascii
As are most victims of sexual assault.
Perhaps she was seeking a way to minimize her victimization... until you've been sexually assaulted, you probably shouldn't draw a lot of conclusions based on how/when she reported it and/or how she described it.
Conviction rate: ~3%!
never mind that the odds are going to be even lower in a no-witnesses date-rape case involving a college co-ed.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Its sexual assault. and to your last question, yes, but good luck with that in practice and look forward to featuring in 'weird news of the week' stories all over the planet for the next 12 months...
why would you believe this when all evidence completely points to the contrary?
If multiple people claim that someone forced them into sex then they are probably gonn' get it... right?
https://medium.com/@alascii
I'm torn. I'm all for more social shaming, people pussyfoot around a wide variety of psychoes and it allows them to keep being psychos. Office bullies come to mind.
I wonder, is there something to be said for the fact that in not going to prison, he's unlikely to be exposed to the attitudes and tricks of the trade of other offenders? Criminals tend to upskill in there...
No, because for whatever reason these cases rarely get to trial, if it did chances are decent that he'd get sent away for a long time.
It's highly unlikely. There is no physical evidence, and it's just her word versus his. According to her own account she went to his room and initially gave consent. It would be very difficult to prove that she withdrew that consent.
t Cat: the term bothers me because it undermines the cause of those who use it
If by "get it" you mean someone's brother/dad/boyfriend coming after them with offers to make them squeel like a piggy, then you're probably still wrong but are a lot more likely to be right than if you're talking about a criminal trial.
...
did you not read any of the stats I posted earlier? if it did go to trial, chances are he would not be convicted, if he WAS convicted chances are he would serve less then a year in jail, and more likely he wouldn't serve jail time at all.