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On Watercooling...

MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
Well well well... Here I am saying I'll never do water cooling because it's just dangerous, but I'm getting frustrated with trying to keep the temps down on my 8800 GTX.

So! I'm here to appeal to everyones wonderful sense of self informed righteousness on the topic they have spent hours perfecting!

Let's cut right to the chase. I've never used water cooling beyond coating a Pentium 2 processor in mineral oil and submerging it under liquid nitrogen to see how high I can get it. Never did get a speed rating from it, but it came out looking like a grenade mid-explosion! So when you're discussing water cooling, assume I know nothing about the method at all. What I'm specifically looking for is recommendations from case space requirements, PSU requirements, what product i should get, and how to apply it, given what I currently have! So, to make things easy I'll post my entire rig for the world to see, since I basically just built it.

The rig:

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814150205 - 8800 GTX
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817153043 - 850 W Thermaltake GPU
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115028 - E6850 Core 2 Duo - 3Ghz
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822136012 - 150GB Raptor Drive
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822152052 - 500GB HDD
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16827136120x2 - DVD R/W
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16835702002 - Peltier Cooler
And also two 2gb sticks of Mushking 4-3-3-12 RAM that I can't find on Newegg and am too lazy to link to.

The Temps:

CPU - Idle: 32C
CPU - Load: 41C

*Just fine with the Peltier Cooler*

GPU - Idle: 70C
GPU - Load (WoW): 84C
GPU - Load (Crysis): 96C

*Desperately Needs Cooling*

RAM - Ambient Temperature seems to be 38C - 51C

The Challange:

I need to drop the temps on that video card. Seriously. It is way way too hot, and I start getting artifacts over 90C. Now my CPU is fine just fine with that Peltier, and I don't feel like taking it off after all I did to install it, not to mention the price tag on it. As far as the RAM... eh, I'll look to you wise gentlemen to tell me what you think I should do - cool or no cool on the RAM.

So my real questioning starts with... Would liquid help my video card temps? Do I *have* to cool my CPU with the liquid cooling or can I just use the peltier? Would it behoove me to cool my RAM as well?

My case has two 250mm intake fans, a 120mm intake fan in the front, and overall is quite except for the noisy 8800 GTX cooling FAN. Also, should I consider cooling my HDD(s)?

Let the discussing begin, yes? What do yall recommend that I do for this powerhouse.

-Michichael Folf-sunè
Michichael on

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    ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Michichael wrote: »
    Well well well... Here I am saying I'll never do water cooling because it's just dangerous, but I'm getting frustrated with trying to keep the temps down on my 8800 GTX.

    So! I'm here to appeal to everyones wonderful sense of self informed righteousness on the topic they have spent hours perfecting!

    Let's cut right to the chase. I've never used water cooling beyond coating a Pentium 2 processor in mineral oil and submerging it under liquid nitrogen to see how high I can get it. Never did get a speed rating from it, but it came out looking like a grenade mid-explosion! So when you're discussing water cooling, assume I know nothing about the method at all. What I'm specifically looking for is recommendations from case space requirements, PSU requirements, what product i should get, and how to apply it, given what I currently have! So, to make things easy I'll post my entire rig for the world to see, since I basically just built it.

    The rig:

    http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814150205 - 8800 GTX
    http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817153043 - 850 W Thermaltake GPU
    http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115028 - E6850 Core 2 Duo - 3Ghz
    http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822136012 - 150GB Raptor Drive
    http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822152052 - 500GB HDD
    http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16827136120x2 - DVD R/W
    http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16835702002 - Peltier Cooler
    And also two 2gb sticks of Mushking 4-3-3-12 RAM that I can't find on Newegg and am too lazy to link to.

    The Temps:

    CPU - Idle: 32C
    CPU - Load: 41C

    *Just fine with the Peltier Cooler*

    GPU - Idle: 70C
    GPU - Load (WoW): 84C
    GPU - Load (Crysis): 96C

    *Desperately Needs Cooling*

    RAM - Ambient Temperature seems to be 38C - 51C

    The Challange:

    I need to drop the temps on that video card. Seriously. It is way way too hot, and I start getting artifacts over 90C. Now my CPU is fine just fine with that Peltier, and I don't feel like taking it off after all I did to install it, not to mention the price tag on it. As far as the RAM... eh, I'll look to you wise gentlemen to tell me what you think I should do - cool or no cool on the RAM.

    So my real questioning starts with... Would liquid help my video card temps? Do I *have* to cool my CPU with the liquid cooling or can I just use the peltier? Would it behoove me to cool my RAM as well?

    My case has two 250mm intake fans, a 120mm intake fan in the front, and overall is quite except for the noisy 8800 GTX cooling FAN. Also, should I consider cooling my HDD(s)?

    Let the discussing begin, yes? What do yall recommend that I do for this powerhouse.


    Ok this is a biggie so I guess I'll do my best based on my own past experiences. Gah, where to begin.


    Ok first and foremost you have to see what kind of budget you have. Water cooling...particularly effective water cooling can get very expensive very quickly. Not insomuch as the water cooling equipment itself, but rather all the other crap you have to modify in order to actually allow the water cooling to be installed correctly.

    Case in point. When I originally started out building my PC about 2 years ago, I started with a plain old mid-case tower I had lying around the house, when I ran into the same temperature problems like you had, I started looking at water cooling as an alternative as my case was already sounding like a leafblower anyway. (This was also before I discovered the importance of paying for top top quality fans)

    Anyhow, so I started looking at water cooling units and supplies and all of them basically require the same damn thing:

    A full tower case, not just any case mind you but, depending on how good you are with a Skil saw, you're going to want one that comes with some pre-cut holes for tubes or some kind of mounting brackets come with the case itself in order to mount your radiator/pump correctly.

    So before I even got to buying a water cooling unit, I had to get a new case. Based on just the fan sizes in your case, I'm guessing you already have a full tower so that's good. Check around to see if there are some kind of easily accessible holes either in the back, top or side of the case that look like acrylic/pvc piping could be threaded through. If you don't you're going to have to start cutting which I'm not sure whether you want to do or not. The case that I ended up going with:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133021

    Had several pre-cut holes and mounts that made installing a water cooling unit infinitely easier. Check out the pics on the description you'll notice several folded up holes and mounting sockets on the back end.

    Ok so now you have a case and your power supply definitely has more than adequate power, (which was another bloody thing I had to upgrade to upgrade to water cooling as well)

    Now to find cooling units. These vary widely and also will require you to test your comfort running piping and tubing full of radiator fluid and water close to very sensitive electronic components. Personally I decided to go with a pre-fab kit from Koolance.

    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?cPath=28_41&products_id=375

    This worked out pretty well but of course, it all comes with freaking stupid catches.

    The cooling unit, like many others unless you buy a whole system kit (which is generally loaded with unnecessary components you probably wont need based on your specs) basically is just that; only the unit. You then have to factor in the cost of purchasing extra tubing, couplers and water blocks for your gfx card.

    And I can guarantee you, that your card, being the 8800 gtx, is going to have a pretty damn expensive water block.

    BINGO!

    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?cPath=29_46&products_id=405

    100 smackers just for the block on top of the extra couplers and tubing you'll need to buy as your pump puts out 3/8" tubing and you have to adapt that down to a video card. Also I'm pretty sure removing the stock cooler on a video card and replacing it with the water block will void your cards warranty so keep that in mind as well.

    Now you should be able to just cool your video card, but once again, you'll have to figure out how to retrofit a cooling radiator to fit it for that size and make sure it doesn't completely bogart your system up. I realize you already have a nice air cooling unit on your system but depending on your mobo and case layout, running tubes around that big cpu fan might screw up the air flow, I'm not sure of course, just making a guess based on how much bloody tubing I had running through my case just cooling my cpu and two video cards. I would generally avoid using any kind of coolers for hard drives or memory as that is just going to create massive tubing and coupling headaches as well as stressing your pump out as well, which will put more strain on your power supply. Really the biggest heat generators in your compy are going to be the mb, vid card, and cpu slap in an extra quiet fan or two and that should be sufficient, I'm running 6 hard drives in my case and with a couple of quiet fans the ambient is kept down pretty reasonably.

    Summing it all up before you even start with water cooling make sure to do effective pre-planning and not like I did it. You have to make sure your case, power supply and internal layout can support an effective water cooling solution and make sure you don't break your bank on the path to doing it. Get it right and you'll have some really nice overclocking and temperature control capabilities so good luck, feel free to pick apart my statements and I'll see what I can add.

    Thegreatcow on
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    Fartacus_the_MightyFartacus_the_Mighty Brought to you by the letter A.Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Before you go buying anything, see if manually turning up the fan on your GTX (via the nvidia control panel) to 100% fixes the problem. I had problems with my Ultra overheating in Crysis, and I discovered that the software was keeping the fan at 59% all the time. Bumped it up to 100, and the temps dropped by 20 degrees.

    Fartacus_the_Mighty on
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Before you go buying anything, see if manually turning up the fan on your GTX (via the nvidia control panel) to 100% fixes the problem. I had problems with my Ultra overheating in Crysis, and I discovered that the software was keeping the fan at 59% all the time. Bumped it up to 100, and the temps dropped by 20 degrees.

    Fan's already at 100%.
    Also I'm pretty sure removing the stock cooler on a video card and replacing it with the water block will void your cards warranty so keep that in mind as well.

    I actually confirmed with XFX tech support, in writing, that it would not void my Warranty, they actually recommend applying water cooling to their card.

    Hmmm. What kind of hole cutting would I need to do on the case? The inside is very wide open, I can post photos if you'd like... As for price? That's not really an issue. I want something that will last.

    Also... given your links and what I've seen, odds are that unless I want to cut my case, I'd need to utilize the 120mm slot in the back of the computer, currently used by my Peltier. Would it really be worth the investment to simply resell the peltier and take the water cooling on the CPU block?

    Or how about using a rear card slot, with the external you suggested?

    Ooog... confusing..

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=405
    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=402
    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=395
    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=375

    Total is 570 bucks. Is that a fair bargian for water cooling, roughly what I should expect to spend?

    Looking at the external, it's probably what I will do. I can also knock off the CPU cooler I think, if I go with this configuration, yes? That would leave it at about 520 dollars.

    So since we've somewhat started selecting a cooling SYSTEM.... what are the risk factors of Water Cooling? What should a newb Water Cooler like myself know about the do's and don't s of it. I'm assuming the liquid cooling solution won't spark a fire if it leaks, but what about rust, corrosion, wear and tear on parts, what can I expect?

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    How do you find how hot your hardware is?

    Vista BTW

    The Black Hunter on
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    ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Michichael wrote: »
    Before you go buying anything, see if manually turning up the fan on your GTX (via the nvidia control panel) to 100% fixes the problem. I had problems with my Ultra overheating in Crysis, and I discovered that the software was keeping the fan at 59% all the time. Bumped it up to 100, and the temps dropped by 20 degrees.

    Fan's already at 100%.
    Also I'm pretty sure removing the stock cooler on a video card and replacing it with the water block will void your cards warranty so keep that in mind as well.

    I actually confirmed with XFX tech support, in writing, that it would not void my Warranty, they actually recommend applying water cooling to their card.

    Hmmm. What kind of hole cutting would I need to do on the case? The inside is very wide open, I can post photos if you'd like... As for price? That's not really an issue. I want something that will last.

    Also... given your links and what I've seen, odds are that unless I want to cut my case, I'd need to utilize the 120mm slot in the back of the computer, currently used by my Peltier. Would it really be worth the investment to simply resell the peltier and take the water cooling on the CPU block?

    Or how about using a rear card slot, with the external you suggested?

    Ooog... confusing..

    Michichael wrote: »
    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=405
    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=402
    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=395
    http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=375

    Total is 570 bucks. Is that a fair bargian for water cooling, roughly what I should expect to spend?

    Looking at the external, it's probably what I will do. I can also knock off the CPU cooler I think, if I go with this configuration, yes? That would leave it at about 520 dollars.

    So since we've somewhat started selecting a cooling SYSTEM.... what are the risk factors of Water Cooling? What should a newb Water Cooler like myself know about the do's and don't s of it. I'm assuming the liquid cooling solution won't spark a fire if it leaks, but what about rust, corrosion, wear and tear on parts, what can I expect?




    Yeeeeeup welcome the wonderful world of watercooling, your kick in the nards will be delivered in 6 weeks. :P

    Ok then I'll try to go through one by one to answer your concerns.

    I'm actually impressed that XFX supports the whole water deal thingy, when I had my XFX Geforce 7800GTXes back in they day they ended up getting voided by the warranty when I wanted to get the original coolers reattached. Anyhow onto the meatier parts....

    As for cutting, well it all heavily depends on your water cooler. For instance, the external Koolance Exos2 unit that I had at one point used 3/8" pvc tubing to handle the inflow and outflow of coolant. So that means at a minimum you're going to need to cut two holes at least 3/8" inch diameter to allow the pipes to feed through and wiggle around a bit so you can adjust the lengths and whatnot. Using my case as an example again, here's essentially what you're facing.

    There's several types of radiators these days. The most common ones are either stand alone units that literally are like mini-cooling towers that stand next to your computer like a big blue wing-wong.

    Here's an example:

    http://www.qrdc.com/Quiet_Computer_PC_Parts/PC_Water_Cooling/Reserator_1_V2_Fanless_Water_Cooling_System/217
    http://www.qrdc.com/Quiet_Computer_PC_Parts/PC_Water_Cooling/Reserator_2_Fanless_Water_Cooling_System/218

    These also are the easiest to set up as it literally is just a case of threading tubing trhough your case and mounting the water blocks, just takes up desk real-estate.


    And the rest are smaller internal or case mounted radiators that will generally stand in one of 3 places on the case highlated here by the red boxes:

    http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/thegreatcow/11-133-021-10.jpg

    As you can see they'll either be mounted on top near the back with the output panels or on the bottom of the case as a tiny unit.

    here's another angle to see what I mean.

    http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/thegreatcow/11-133-021-12.jpg

    DO NOTE THO!

    I strongly recommend against using the radiators that sit at the bottom of the case inside it. These suckers are generally small but generate lots of heat and depend on the CPU's case fans to circulate air through it's radiator to cool the coolant. If you don't have enough case fans or if your ambient is too high, it's just going to re-circulate warm coolant over and over again.

    Plus it makes wire and tube navigation a bish when you're trying to add or remove a drive. Avoid em at all costs.


    You'll also notice I've highlighted the pre-cut holes that come on this case. Essentially if you don't have these holes that spot is generally a good spot to cut some holes to allow piping to come through, once again it heavily depends on your case, you have to make sure you can thread piping through that wont' be brushing up against critical components and won't obstruct airflow too much with their position, remember there will still be a few case fans running and they still have to work.

    If you can locate your holes ok then, you have to decide what you want to do with that CPU cooler of yours.

    Personally, with how much juice is running through CPUs these days I'd honestly say you'll get more performance out of a CPU waterblock but chances are it will probably set you back another 50-100 dollars which I'm not sure whether you want to spend or not. Also if you plan to upgrade the CPU in the next two years or so chances are you're going to need to buy another waterblock to fit it as well.

    Giving it one final thought I'd say since you have a decent CPU cooler and you'd save 100 bucks or so by not buying a CPU water block, I'd say go with an external mount cooler of some kind and route it through one off the PCI slot covers.

    Also as I noted in the 2nd pic and here as well:
    http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/thegreatcow/11-133-021-14.jpg

    DON'T cut the grill for your 120MM case fan. For starters that puppy is right next to the cpu and even with a water block definitely helps shunt extra heat out of the case. Try to see if you can cut holes around it so you can still keep the case fan mounted there to provide extra cooling.


    Ah yes risks, there are some risks yes, but can be avoided if you treat your system with care and basic maintenance.

    Firstly, yes, water and electricity DO NOT MIX. So, when you're setting up your cooling system even with an external system, I'd strongly recommend to remove as many pieces of hardware as possible that you don't need to do a basic boot for the intial boot test. Most cooling systems will show you how to "prime" the system, that is make sure the whole system is juiced up with coolant before you actually turn the computer on. And any of the cooling systems worth a damn will have a bypass cord built into the power switch to make sure they turn on when the cpu power button is pressed.

    Secondly take it slow. Even with an external cooler, you're going to have to move around quite a bit of hardware to get everything set. With my Koolance sysetm it took the better part of a weekend to get everything set up, granted I had a LOT more hardware to cool and that was already in there so I probably had a bit more complicated rig than you did.

    As for maintenance, yeah you definitely have to worry about corrosion and leaks just like a car radiator but not nearly as much.

    Most modern coolants will have blended in them some kind of anti-corrosion agent that will inhibit waterscaling and gunk up. If your coolant comes in a concentrate and specifies to be blended with water, USE ONLY DISTILLED WATER. Thankfully I haven't encountered a coolant that required blending most come pre-mixed and ready to be poured. Heck, Koolance will sell you bags of the stuff ready to be poured at about 10 bucks a bag.

    You'll need to change your coolant about once every 1-2 years or so depending on use. If you're a power user and pretty much have your compy on 24/7 you may need to do it every year. The radiator should come with instructions how to clean it out and flush the system so make sure you keep that in a safe spot as I lost mine and to re-download the manual to flush my system.

    As for the other parts, most pumps are rated to about several thousand hours lifespan so you should definitely get several years out of them, even more if you're not using it all the time and not pushing your system too much. Hoses may need to be replaced every couple of years or so as that PVC stuff degrades over time and the hoses start to get stiff and start cracking, but you won't have to worry about that for a long time. Couplers and blocks pretty much live as long as they're compatible with your system, never had a water block fail on me yet.

    Ultimately however just be careful, there's really no set in stone guidelines aside from making sure your system is primed before you turn on the compy on for the first time after installing it. Run it for about 5 minutes or so according the pump's instructions to check for leaks. And yes if the coolant starts spewing all over the components they can cause a short, not necessarily a fire, but can fry your system if you're not careful with those couplings and housings. Just exercise caution is really all I can say, you're dealing with finicky plumping around electronics so you have to just take it slowly and double and triple-check your system before you send into the fire.

    Thegreatcow on
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    ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    How do you find how hot your hardware is?

    Vista BTW

    Usually your mobo will have some kind of temp monitoring proggy that came with the mobo disc. Barring that there usually are some free utilities floating around on the web that allow you to see your cpu temp based on what it can pull from the system bios.

    Thegreatcow on
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    Squirrel RancherSquirrel Rancher Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Is there a need for you to go with water-cooling? It's only worth the cost and maintenance if you're doing serious overclocking or want a silent system.

    The stock cooling on the 8800 series is absolute shit, you could easily fix the problem by getting a better heatsink and fan and save a ton of money as well. When I got my 8800 GTS I got myself a Thermalright HR-03 Plus and a medium speed Panaflo fan. Right now the ambient temperature is 15.6 C and my idle temp is at 41 C.

    Just my opinion anyway.

    Squirrel Rancher on
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    ArasakiArasaki Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Try the forums at this site: www.overclockers.co.uk

    There are several guides on how to set up a watercooled system, and I found a bunch of decent information there.

    Arasaki on
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    Disco BanditDisco Bandit Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Shouldn't this be in the Technology subforum? That forum is there for a reason.

    Disco Bandit on
    Pokemon Diamond: 5412 9146 7564
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    There's a technology subforum? I thought it was Stupid Technology, like something to mock bad techonlogy investments.

    Anyway, TheGreatcow, These external Exos Coolers say they can go through a rear card slot instead of through precut holes, whats your opinion on that?
    Is there a need for you to go with water-cooling? It's only worth the cost and maintenance if you're doing serious overclocking or want a silent system.

    No real *need* for water cooling, but so far it seems like the most effective way of cutting temps out there, especially for potential overclocking.

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    TechBoyTechBoy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    If you want to get water cooling, then by all means go for it. However, if your graphics card is overheating to that degree on stock cooling, then something is seriously fucked up with the air flow in or around your case. You shouldn't NEED water cooling just to keep stuff from overheating.
    Michichael wrote: »
    My case has two 250mm intake fans, a 120mm intake fan in the front, and overall is quite except for the noisy 8800 GTX cooling FAN. Also, should I consider cooling my HDD(s)?

    I hope that doesn't mean that all the fans in your case are sucking air in? Cause that is wrong. Fans in the back blow out, fans in the front suck in.

    TechBoy on
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I hope that doesn't mean that all the fans in your case are sucking air in? Cause that is wrong. Fans in the back blow out, fans in the front suck in.

    No, however I have cats and dogs. The vents are getting clogged constantly which leads to air cooling not exactly being tip top with the Stock cooler. The 250mm fans are on the left side of the case, intake. The front is 120mm, bottom of the case.

    One 120mm rear of case on Peltier cooler - output.
    120mm fan on top of case, output.
    Stock cooler on the 8800 GTX, output rear of case.

    Ambient is 51C under load with the sensor on the back of the 8800 GTX, meaning that it's taking temp right where it's hottest in the system, as far as ambient goes. I have cleaned the stock cooler many times and reapplied Artic ceramique thermal compound, but still no real luck. This bad boy just puts out a TON of freaking heat. So I'm wondering if air cooling just doesn't cut it for this card and I should use water.

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    noweatnoweat Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    i have almost the exact setup as you do, but my problems seem to come from the northbridge overheating rather than the 8800 freaking out. if i point a fan at it my system stabalizes, so i'm looking to invest in a better case with greater a) ventilation b) internal airflow.

    i got tired of messing with water systems like koolance and others which is why i gave the peltier a shot this time around. i would hope that water cooling has improved since my experience but i don't see how its worth the additional cost unless you have money to burn and you really really need a quieter system. you can buy a $10 pci addon that places a fan right next to your vid card for extra cooling. might want to try that first and see if you can save yourself an extra $400+. also looks like you could use another exhaust between the peltier and the back of the case to lower ambient.

    noweat on
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    TechBoyTechBoy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Ah, yeah, pet hair clogging the intake vents will mess up airflow nicely.

    Does your card still idle that high right after you clean up everything? Because if it still runs that high even when air is flowing and everything is clean, you should take it up with XFX and have them replace the card. The 8800GTX runs hot, but it definitely should not be reaching the 90s and artifacting in games.

    If it's all good after a cleaning though, then yeah, it seems like water would be your best alternative.

    TechBoy on
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    ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Michichael wrote: »
    There's a technology subforum? I thought it was Stupid Technology, like something to mock bad techonlogy investments.

    Anyway, TheGreatcow, These external Exos Coolers say they can go through a rear card slot instead of through precut holes, whats your opinion on that?
    Is there a need for you to go with water-cooling? It's only worth the cost and maintenance if you're doing serious overclocking or want a silent system.

    No real *need* for water cooling, but so far it seems like the most effective way of cutting temps out there, especially for potential overclocking.

    Aye that's definitely an option there, you just have to make sure you have enough tubing to pipe it down the back of the case, through the case to the components in the case and then back out and up the back of the case again. I forget how much tubing came with the exos2 unit, but you may need to buy more depending on how much you need.

    I had just enough to cool a cpu and 2 video cards on my Thermaltake armor full tower so in theory you should have enough tubing to get what you need done. Granted however I did end up using the pre cut holes in my case rather than the pci slot, but you should still be able to do it, especially if all you want to cool is your video card and nothing else.

    Thegreatcow on
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    TechBoy wrote: »
    Ah, yeah, pet hair clogging the intake vents will mess up airflow nicely.

    Does your card still idle that high right after you clean up everything? Because if it still runs that high even when air is flowing and everything is clean, you should take it up with XFX and have them replace the card. The 8800GTX runs hot, but it definitely should not be reaching the 90s and artifacting in games.

    If it's all good after a cleaning though, then yeah, it seems like water would be your best alternative.

    Nah after I go through the hassle of taking apart the card fan and cleaning it up, as well as the case, it drops to ~ 62 idle and 85 load.
    if all you want to cool is your video card and nothing else.

    Well at the moment it looks like all I do need to cool, right?

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I saw koolance and cringed.

    Do not use their products, they don't cool that well and use aluminium which can cause corrosion.
    Firstly, yes, water and electricity DO NOT MIX.

    This is partly a myth. Deionized distilled water is not really going to conduct a current. The issue is that it will reionize over time and lead to problems. Most "non conductive" coolants simply use D/D water toss in some anti-freeze (fights corrosion) and call it a day.

    It's still best to leak test the system first, but I've had many leaks and never lost anything (knock on wood.).

    Good American retailers

    www.petrastechshop.com
    www.performance-pcs.com
    www.sidewindercomputers.com

    Best 8800 block on the market is the switech GPU only (you need sinks for the RAM) MCW block, or if you want full cover it's the EK 8800FC. Best CPU block is a toss up between the d-tek fuzion or the EK supreme.

    Radiators go with a swiftech, or if you can afford it a thermochill.

    I'll post pics when I get home.

    waterlogged on
    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I saw koolance and cringed.

    Do not use their products, they don't cool that well and use aluminium which can cause corrosion.
    Firstly, yes, water and electricity DO NOT MIX.

    This is partly a myth. Deionized distilled water is not really going to conduct a current. The issue is that it will reionize over time and lead to problems. Most "non conductive" coolants simply use D/D water toss in some anti-freeze (fights corrosion) and call it a day.

    It's still best to leak test the system first, but I've had many leaks and never lost anything (knock on wood.).

    Good American retailers

    www.petrastechshop.com
    www.performance-pcs.com
    www.sidewindercomputers.com

    Best 8800 block on the market is the switech GPU only (you need sinks for the RAM) MCW block, or if you want full cover it's the EK 8800FC. Best CPU block is a toss up between the d-tek fuzion or the EK supreme.

    Radiators go with a swiftech, or if you can afford it a thermochill.

    I'll post pics when I get home.


    Aye I'll agree that overall I didn't really like Koolance all that much but it was the only experience with watercooling I had so I figured I'd use that as a baseline rather than anything else. :P

    Thegreatcow on
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I saw koolance and cringed.

    Do not use their products, they don't cool that well and use aluminium which can cause corrosion.
    Firstly, yes, water and electricity DO NOT MIX.

    This is partly a myth. Deionized distilled water is not really going to conduct a current. The issue is that it will reionize over time and lead to problems. Most "non conductive" coolants simply use D/D water toss in some anti-freeze (fights corrosion) and call it a day.

    It's still best to leak test the system first, but I've had many leaks and never lost anything (knock on wood.).

    Good American retailers

    www.petrastechshop.com
    www.performance-pcs.com
    www.sidewindercomputers.com

    Best 8800 block on the market is the switech GPU only (you need sinks for the RAM) MCW block, or if you want full cover it's the EK 8800FC. Best CPU block is a toss up between the d-tek fuzion or the EK supreme.

    Radiators go with a swiftech, or if you can afford it a thermochill.

    I'll post pics when I get home.


    Aye I'll agree that overall I didn't really like Koolance all that much but it was the only experience with watercooling I had so I figured I'd use that as a baseline rather than anything else. :P

    Hey it was still a start. And I was aware that D/I water doesn't conduct, but dust and other compounds that ionize salts in water result in a *bad* situation. Please do post pics when you get home!

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Michichael wrote: »
    I saw koolance and cringed.

    Do not use their products, they don't cool that well and use aluminium which can cause corrosion.
    Firstly, yes, water and electricity DO NOT MIX.

    This is partly a myth. Deionized distilled water is not really going to conduct a current. The issue is that it will reionize over time and lead to problems. Most "non conductive" coolants simply use D/D water toss in some anti-freeze (fights corrosion) and call it a day.

    It's still best to leak test the system first, but I've had many leaks and never lost anything (knock on wood.).

    Good American retailers

    www.petrastechshop.com
    www.performance-pcs.com
    www.sidewindercomputers.com

    Best 8800 block on the market is the switech GPU only (you need sinks for the RAM) MCW block, or if you want full cover it's the EK 8800FC. Best CPU block is a toss up between the d-tek fuzion or the EK supreme.

    Radiators go with a swiftech, or if you can afford it a thermochill.

    I'll post pics when I get home.


    Aye I'll agree that overall I didn't really like Koolance all that much but it was the only experience with watercooling I had so I figured I'd use that as a baseline rather than anything else. :P

    Hey it was still a start. And I was aware that D/I water doesn't conduct, but dust and other compounds that ionize salts in water result in a *bad* situation. Please do post pics when you get home!

    No problem, but Koolance is flat out bad on a lot of levels. You can get far better items in the same price range if you go with a DIY system.

    The thing about ionizing water, it does take some time. And as long as it's not tap water, spraying water over a live PCB is only DC current, it's probably not going to result in catastrophe, now spraying water over AC current (ie your power supply) that's another ball game.

    The best water cooling you can get in terms of performance is a mix and match of parts, and done properly it's cheaper then most single company kits. The only issues are that 1. EK parts are costly in the US but they do make the best video card/chipset/PWM parts out, 2. Thermochill rads are pricey and this is the killer it's about 130 bucks for the Thermochill vs 50 for the Swiftech which is almost as good, and 3. Tygon tubing is way over priced.

    You can slice off the EK price issue with a good retailer, drop the thermochill for a swiftech MCR 320, drop the tygon for tubing of choice and slice a good 200 off a complete cooling solution and get almost the same results.

    Anyways, my box.

    Asus Striker Extreme, intel E6850 @4.0ghz (can go higher), dual 8800gts 640mb SLI OC'd from 500mhz to 650mhz, 4gb corsair ddr2 800 dominator, HT omega Clario+ soundcard, PC P&C 750 quad PSU, silverstone TJ-09 case.

    Cooled by (in no order). Swiftech MCRES, EK asus NB, EK asus SB, 2x EK 8800GTS FC, swiftech apogee GT, liang DDC 12v pump, swiftech MCR 320 radiator, swiftech MCR 220 radiator, 5x yate loon fans in push configuration, distilled water plus pentosion (anti corrosive even though not needed), PT NUKE (anti fungal even though not needed).

    Fun fact about corrosion, as long as you avoid aluminum (cough koolance, innovatek, aquacomputer) you don't needed it as noble metals won't corrode when combined. Fun fact about fungus, copper is a biocide so it kills it. I put a tiny bit in to be on the safe side and because I like the color, but I really don't need to.

    Anyways some (old) pics!

    CPU/PWM area
    IMG_0514.jpg

    Video cards/SB area
    IMG_0513.jpg

    full case shot
    IMG_0512.jpg

    Now I spent a couple hundred cooling that sucker, you don't need to that was a no holds bared build.

    waterlogged on
    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Yeesh! That looks really complicated. How do the fittings work, out of idle curiousity? Do you match the tube size to the internal diameter of the block you're using, or do you go larger/smaller?

    *edit'd out the quote*

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    jesus

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
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    waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Michichael wrote: »
    Yeesh! That looks really complicated. How do the fittings work, out of idle curiousity? Do you match the tube size to the internal diameter of the block you're using, or do you go larger/smaller?

    *edit'd out the quote*

    Most blocks use G1/4 fittings, so you just screw them in with an o-ring and off you go.

    Where it get's complicated is tubing. The standards are 1/4 ID, 3/8 ID, 1/2 ID. Which is the internal tubing diameter, you need to match that to the nozzle you're going to use. You can really slice hairs on what's better, but in general smaller tubing is easier to work with, but larger tubing has more flow and thus more turbulence which helps drop temps. However we are talking a 1-2 C difference here.

    The most common fittings are compression (what koolance uses) where it locks in, perfect seal, and high flow. Again it's slicing hairs but what you use will mandate if you have to seal the tubing around the barb or just lock it in.

    You can always fit slightly smaller tubing over a larger barb, provided the tubing is thick enough it won't crack. Just put the end of it in boiling water for a second to soften it and slap the sucker on. The extra nice part is when it cools it helps seal it. However it's a pain in the ass to remove.

    waterlogged on
    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sorry I've been so long from the thread, job was kicking my ass and I ended up in the hospital and without a job >.<!!

    But I'm getting better now! So anyway nother question: When I put together the system and go to test it, can I run/fit the tubes, then just fill it before fastening it to any components? I.e. can I lay out all of the coolers, get them tubed up, turn it on, and see if there are any leaks, or does it have to be fastened down?

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    Pastoriusk2Pastoriusk2 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sure you can run it unfastened as long as the tube layout/running is correct so you won't have to drain and disconnect them to fasten them down after leak testing.

    Pastoriusk2 on
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    waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Michichael wrote: »
    Sorry I've been so long from the thread, job was kicking my ass and I ended up in the hospital and without a job >.<!!

    But I'm getting better now! So anyway nother question: When I put together the system and go to test it, can I run/fit the tubes, then just fill it before fastening it to any components? I.e. can I lay out all of the coolers, get them tubed up, turn it on, and see if there are any leaks, or does it have to be fastened down?

    Yes you can do it that way. Or you can connect everything to the board, but only plug the pump into the PSU. Then short the PSU with a paper clip and the pump will turn on, but that's all that will turn on. Leak test it that way, and then wire the entire build and off you go.

    I take the second approach because it's a lot easier to tube the sucker up after it's in the case. IMHO it's the easiest way.

    The biggest danger about water cooling really has little to do with the actual cooling. The real truth is that water cooling will drop temps enough that you can volt mod things to get overclocks that aren't possible on air. This is where a lot of people get into trouble.

    I've only had a few leaks and (knock on wood) nothing was ever damaged. However I have destroyed hardware with volt mods because I got to greedy.

    waterlogged on
    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Ideally I just wanna drop the temps on my 8800GTX. It was running over 100C yesterday. opened it up, turns out the fan had over 4mm of dust and hair clogging it. No wonder if wasn't cooling. Now it's back down to 59C idle, but I'd really like to drop these temps.

    About the radiator - where does it go? How does it cool? Are there any good external radiators you can suggest where I can have it sit on top of the case etc? If modifications are necessary how hard are they?

    So far as I understand it I have the pump that propells the liquid, the blocks which transfer the heat of the component to the liquid, and the radiator. Is there anything I'm missing?

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    A reservoir or fillport. You can try an external radiator cage in case you have no where proper to mount your rad.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108084

    Macro9 on
    58pwo4vxupcr.png
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    waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Michichael wrote: »
    Ideally I just wanna drop the temps on my 8800GTX. It was running over 100C yesterday. opened it up, turns out the fan had over 4mm of dust and hair clogging it. No wonder if wasn't cooling. Now it's back down to 59C idle, but I'd really like to drop these temps.

    About the radiator - where does it go? How does it cool? Are there any good external radiators you can suggest where I can have it sit on top of the case etc? If modifications are necessary how hard are they?

    So far as I understand it I have the pump that propells the liquid, the blocks which transfer the heat of the component to the liquid, and the radiator. Is there anything I'm missing?

    You can mount a radiator outside of your case very easily. http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcrre2raho.html rad box.

    Radiator (MCR series is best bang for the buck) http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcqposerab.html

    Block for 8800gtx (best on the market) http://www.petrastechshop.com/ekgtxfucowaf.html

    The pump actually sucks the liquid (it works in inverse). The pump pulls liquid through the blocks which draws the heat away, it's then moved to the radiator which case dissipate x amount of heat (bigger the radiator and more airflow over it the more heat you can move). All the water in the loop reaches the same temperature (depending on how much heat you generate vs how much heat you can remove) and off you go.
    A reservoir or fillport.

    T-line is the easiest way to fill the loop, a res makes bleeding (getting out the air bubbles) easier.

    My EK blocks knocked close to 30c off my 8800 temps.

    waterlogged on
    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    MichichaelMichichael Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Awesome. I'll look into it and post back if I have any questions! Thanks so much for the support on this =)

    Michichael on
    -Michichael Folf-sunè
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    waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    do not buy zalman liquid items, they are beyond bad.

    waterlogged on
    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    CapnCapn Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I have never tried water cooling my self, or at least not yet, but i did stumble on this http://www.hothardware.com/Articles/Asetek_Low_Cost_Liquid_Cooling_LCLC_System/?page=1

    nvm guess this is OEM only.

    Capn on
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