JRPGs are still going strong and have remained pretty static for, what, twenty years? There are good ones and bad ones (all of them!), and the whole JRPG developing thing isn't going anywhere. I hate them all and hope they die, but that's just me.
Half of you mouth-breathing retards spouting this garbage probably haven't even played a JRPG in the last 5 years. The other half probably barely managed to string together the condemnation through the debilitating effects of fetal alcohol syndrome. I cannot fathom how JRPGs can be "static" when there have been notable games with strong revisions to the battle systems, from Press Turns to FFXII's system.
I don't really see how you can look at a JRPG's storytelling and honestly think that it's something amazing. I mean, I've only played some older JRPGs for as long as I could stand them (usually until I saved and quit about an hour later), but every time I look at the stories, they all seem to be exactly the same. I can't say anything about gameplay, but I usually look for story first in RPGs.
There's usually little role to play at all, actually. Leveling up doesn't mean it's a role playing game. And the argument I usually see it something along the lines of "Well you play as Cloud the entire time so that's your role!", but that applies to all games. I don't play a role in Goldeneye more than any JRPG I've played and I'm pretty sure that Goldeneye isn't an RPG. I mean, there's a giant list somewhere about all of the generic things in a JRPG, as I'm sure you've seen, and as far as I can tell, many of those things on that list are in many JRPGs. At least, all that I've heard of in any detail.
I think we have long since established that JRPGs are not in really anyway analogous to regular RPGs, which is why they have a special denotation! And congratulations, you got an hour into the stories. If you stopped 50 pages into LoTR you'd probably wonder why Tolkien had a fetish for cheery midgets with hairy feet.
Except that Tolkien didn't beat me over the head with exposition for the first 25 pages and boring examples of ways to read the book for 15 more before he got to the actual storytelling. Also, Pb, I kinda think you got overly upset at Pancake over a little half-hearted joke, but that's really neither here nor there.
But I would like to hear some of the innovative JRPGs out there, because I've never, ever heard of one. They've all looked like one basic outline with a few quirks or side tracks here and there.
Upset? This is the internet, Goom. I thought after a few years here you'd have grasped that! As for innovative, I'd say letting you build your own AI with the Gambit system in FFXII was a really good start, and fit the system like a glove. Storytelling is an interesting one to tackle, because you can point this one the other direction as well: how has any RPG really innovated with story recently? If you take a more open game like Oblivion or Vampire, you still end up with a lot of the same checkpoints (less so with Oblivion) and pretty much the same stuff at the end. If you simply want to value a good story over a different structure, you're dipping straight into subjectivity. I personally love the SMT games, especially Nocturne. Others (I believe apotheos is one person), however, are very put off by the plot structure of Nocturne and didn't like it at all. What can you do?
Most JRPGs look like the story was created through a random generator. Let's write one right now. Their is a child in a small town with no real powers to speak of, but he has something special about him. A darkness comes over the land and someone is kidnapped (or killed). He is spoken to by a magical spirit that tells him he needs to take on a quest. And he does, with swords. The end.
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories, as if you're wiping your ass with William Shakespeare.
Most JRPGs look like the story was created through a random generator. Let's write one right now. Their is a child in a small town with no real powers to speak of, but he has something special about him. A darkness comes over the land and someone is kidnapped (or killed). He is spoken to by a magical spirit that tells him he needs to take on a quest. And he does, with swords. The end.
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories.
Western RPGs tend to follow generic rulesets as well, you cock, with a few notable exceptions. It's the same way in JRPGs.
Most JRPGs look like the story was created through a random generator. Let's write one right now. Their is a child in a small town with no real powers to speak of, but he has something special about him. A darkness comes over the land and someone is kidnapped (or killed). He is spoken to by a magical spirit that tells him he needs to take on a quest. And he does, with swords. The end.
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories.
Oh, congratulations, you made a Zelda game too! Lets all bitch about those now and get the party started.
Most JRPGs look like the story was created through a random generator. Let's write one right now. Their is a child in a small town with no real powers to speak of, but he has something special about him. A darkness comes over the land and someone is kidnapped (or killed). He is spoken to by a magical spirit that tells him he needs to take on a quest. And he does, with swords. The end.
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories.
Western RPGs tend to follow generic rulesets as well, you cock, with a few notable exceptions. It's the same way in JRPGs.
Here is a random western RPG: a farmer comes back to his farm to find that his family has been killed by grue, which are being controlled by an evil wizard. Starting off with a pitchfork, somehow the farmer finds this really fucking awesome armor, and a sword that outshines that of the morning sun, which he uses to defeat the wizard. The end.
I think it's been a good long while since anybody has patted Zelda on the back for having a good story. It's usually the gameplay that wins people over.
Most JRPGs look like the story was created through a random generator. Let's write one right now. Their is a child in a small town with no real powers to speak of, but he has something special about him. A darkness comes over the land and someone is kidnapped (or killed). He is spoken to by a magical spirit that tells him he needs to take on a quest. And he does, with swords. The end.
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories.
Western RPGs tend to follow generic rulesets as well, you cock, with a few notable exceptions. It's the same way in JRPGs.
Here is a random western RPG: a farmer comes back to his farm to find that his family has been killed by grue, which are being controlled by an evil wizard. Starting off with a pitchfork, somehow the farmer finds this really fucking awesome armor, and a sword that outshines that of the morning sun, which he uses to defeat the wizard. The end.
Occasionally, however, the character gets to make some morally questionable choices which have absolutely no effect on the ending.
Pb on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
But I would like to hear some of the innovative JRPGs out there, because I've never, ever heard of one. They've all looked like one basic outline with a few quirks or side tracks here and there.
I listed a few in my initial reply, but to be more specific:
Devil Summoner: takes place in the early 1900s, following the 13th in a line of ancestral Devil Summoners. Takes on a job with a freelance detective agency to investigate a soulless army and a kidnapping. Fights with a gun, sword, and a demonic army.
Nocturne: Post-modern. All of humanity killed in a global apocalypse; the player becomes a half-human/half-demon who can either remake the world or destroy it, based on siding with one of various 'Reasons'(ranging from aiding religious fanatics to power-mad creatures set on destroying the weak to Lucifer himself).
Shadow Hearts(Covenant): Early 20th century, takes place during World War 1. Ex-German soldier joins up with a person that can take the forms of various demons. Also involves Rasputin, for whatever reason(different developer). The original's supposed to be the best in the series, but I haven't played it.
Earthbound: Boy and his bicycle set out with his three best friends to fight aliens and occasionally shop at malls. Fairly one-of-a-kind.
Then there's the classic likes of Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI, which might seem cliched nowadays, but they set the standard back then.
Most JRPGs look like the story was created through a random generator. Let's write one right now. Their is a child in a small town with no real powers to speak of, but he has something special about him. A darkness comes over the land and someone is kidnapped (or killed). He is spoken to by a magical spirit that tells him he needs to take on a quest. And he does, with swords. The end.
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories.
Western RPGs tend to follow generic rulesets as well, you cock, with a few notable exceptions. It's the same way in JRPGs.
Here is a random western RPG: a farmer comes back to his farm to find that his family has been killed by grue, which are being controlled by an evil wizard. Starting off with a pitchfork, somehow the farmer finds this really fucking awesome armor, and a sword that outshines that of the morning sun, which he uses to defeat the wizard. The end.
Occasionally, however, the character gets to make some morally questionable choices which have absolutely no effect on the ending.
Or they affect the ending in some manner, but there is no inherent middle ground; you are either a nature and wholesome goodness loving faggot, or a malicious vile villain who drinks the sweat from Satan's balls as a protein shake for breakfast every morning.
Last year was an amazing year for JRPGs, so I'm not entirely sure where the OP is going. Persona 3 alone demonstrated that JRPGs still have interesting and innovative territory to explore.
I, too, am baffled as to why disparaging JRPGs is the cool thing to do. Looking at my game collection, I can see that about 2/3 of my 60 or so games are JRPGs. A lot of the other games in my collection are western RPGs. I don't really dig shooters (of the shmup or the FPS varieties), but you damn well better believe that I've played Deus Ex, System Shock 2, and Half-Life 2, because I'm willing to engage genres that I normally don't like. I understand that JRPGs are a niche within a niche genre, but some people (myself obviously included) still dig menu based combat.
But I would like to hear some of the innovative JRPGs out there, because I've never, ever heard of one. They've all looked like one basic outline with a few quirks or side tracks here and there.
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne starts out with our world ending and the remainder of the game consists of humans & demons fighting over how what philosophy the new world will be ruled by.
Lost Odyssey tells the story of an immortal over a 1000 year period through various short stories.
Chrono Trigger consists of a group of heroes traveling back and forth through time to stop an alien infestation in the future.
Devil Summoner is the story of a detective agency/demon fighting unit in Japan in the early 1900s.
The Valkyrie Profile series & Odin Sphere use Norse mythology as a base instead of the traditional European mythologies.
And so on and so on. That's just the story aspect; I could go on and on about innovative gameplay systems in various JRPGs. Really, most of the complaints levied towards JRPGs seem to be a result of either 1) playing the wrong JRPGs or 2) expecting a non-linear game and being disappointed when you don't get one. Here's the thing: some people actually prefer linear games.
Upset? This is the internet, Goom. I thought after a few years here you'd have grasped that! As for innovative, I'd say letting you build your own AI with the Gambit system in FFXII was a really good start, and fit the system like a glove. Storytelling is an interesting one to tackle, because you can point this one the other direction as well: how has any RPG really innovated with story recently? If you take a more open game like Oblivion or Vampire, you still end up with a lot of the same checkpoints (less so with Oblivion) and pretty much the same stuff at the end. If you simply want to value a good story over a different structure, you're dipping straight into subjectivity. I personally love the SMT games, especially Nocturne. Others (I believe apotheos is one person), however, are very put off by the plot structure of Nocturne and didn't like it at all. What can you do?
Well, you seemed pretty offended is all. I thought that Gambit system was just you telling the AI what to do instead of having to do it yourself.
But on story, I'd say that they have more than some of the stuff in JRPGs. I certainly don't go off to read stuff about JRPGs, so please forgive any ignorance, but it really looks to me that most of them either involve really young people, magic, or the top ruler of the land being evil (possibly from religion!). I'm sure the point from A to B is different per game, but honestly it's still point A to B. Plus, like I said, they can't seem to tell a story in the actual game and rely on cutscenes/droning opening about the long history of blahblahblah. Maybe I just played the wrong games, I'll openly admit that without an hesitation, but those wrong games are some that people talk about being great.
Goomba on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Most JRPGs look like the story was created through a random generator. Let's write one right now. Their is a child in a small town with no real powers to speak of, but he has something special about him. A darkness comes over the land and someone is kidnapped (or killed). He is spoken to by a magical spirit that tells him he needs to take on a quest. And he does, with swords. The end.
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories.
Western RPGs tend to follow generic rulesets as well, you cock, with a few notable exceptions. It's the same way in JRPGs.
Here is a random western RPG: a farmer comes back to his farm to find that his family has been killed by grue, which are being controlled by an evil wizard. Starting off with a pitchfork, somehow the farmer finds this really fucking awesome armor, and a sword that outshines that of the morning sun, which he uses to defeat the wizard. The end.
Occasionally, however, the character gets to make some morally questionable choices which have absolutely no effect on the ending.
Or they affect the ending in some manner, but there is no inherent middle ground; you are either a nature and wholesome goodness loving faggot, or a malicious vile villain who drinks the sweat from Satan's balls as a protein shake for breakfast every morning.
To be fair, in Vampire, you're pretty much hellbound no matter what you do.
cj iwakura on
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited January 2008
I love JRPGs dearly and many of them have been trying new things, but if I got a quarter for every bubbly, giggly, "lets all be friends" female party member I got, then I'd have enough for a new rig to play Fallout 3 on thats for sure!
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Upset? This is the internet, Goom. I thought after a few years here you'd have grasped that! As for innovative, I'd say letting you build your own AI with the Gambit system in FFXII was a really good start, and fit the system like a glove. Storytelling is an interesting one to tackle, because you can point this one the other direction as well: how has any RPG really innovated with story recently? If you take a more open game like Oblivion or Vampire, you still end up with a lot of the same checkpoints (less so with Oblivion) and pretty much the same stuff at the end. If you simply want to value a good story over a different structure, you're dipping straight into subjectivity. I personally love the SMT games, especially Nocturne. Others (I believe apotheos is one person), however, are very put off by the plot structure of Nocturne and didn't like it at all. What can you do?
Well, you seemed pretty offended is all. I thought that Gambit system was just you telling the AI what to do instead of having to do it yourself.
That is, in fact, exactly what it is. What this does is finally allow for fast-based (or you can set the slider and draw it out) concurrent combat without having AI that you constantly feel the need to scream at for being fucking retarded (STAR OCEAN 3 GRSGSFDSfsd). With the removal of the whole "entering battle" thing it catches up to and surpasses almost every other RPG (western or weeabo) I've played in terms of how fun combat is.
Most JRPGs look like the story was created through a random generator. Let's write one right now. Their is a child in a small town with no real powers to speak of, but he has something special about him. A darkness comes over the land and someone is kidnapped (or killed). He is spoken to by a magical spirit that tells him he needs to take on a quest. And he does, with swords. The end.
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories.
Western RPGs tend to follow generic rulesets as well, you cock, with a few notable exceptions. It's the same way in JRPGs.
Here is a random western RPG: a farmer comes back to his farm to find that his family has been killed by grue, which are being controlled by an evil wizard. Starting off with a pitchfork, somehow the farmer finds this really fucking awesome armor, and a sword that outshines that of the morning sun, which he uses to defeat the wizard. The end.
Dungeon Siege came out a good few years ago.
Goomba on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
I love JRPGs dearly and many of them have been trying new things, but if I got a quarter for every bubbly, giggly, "lets all be friends" female party member I got, then I'd have enough for a new rig to play Fallout 3 on thats for sure!
There might have been one or two in Nocturne, but they were probably the first to have their souls eaten.
The average SMT female is more likely to disembowel you with a giant claw that used to be an arm.
I'd say the problem(at least with JRPGs) is when that's ALL you play. They all start to muddle together.
Though I'd say some specific franchises could use a kick in the ass. Pokémon for example has been the same thing for 5 games, which is kinda weird, as the best part was the collectibility which was done amazingly well with Pokémon Snap, but then abandoned in favor of the tired old Dragon Warrior RPG system for the next 3 installments.
Zelda, while not an RPG, has also become tiredly predictable. But that's another rant.
My advice is play another genre for a little while, RPGs are not the only games out there with stories, and they certainly aren't the best.
Spectral Swallow on
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited January 2008
Hell part of the hate against JRPGs might be the fact that there are a hell of a lot more of them then their western counterparts.
Also what constitutes a western RPG is becoming a bit muddle nowadays. They run the gamut from FPS to D&D style turn based affairs.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
I love JRPGs dearly and many of them have been trying new things, but if I got a quarter for every bubbly, giggly, "lets all be friends" female party member I got, then I'd have enough for a new rig to play Fallout 3 on thats for sure!
I agree that JRPGs still have a long way to go in terms of accurate and appropriate portrayals of sexuality and gender (particularly with regards to queer characters, the acupuncturist in Shadow Hearts makes me want to stab someone), but the pendulum seems to swing in the completely opposite direction for action games and shooters. I would prefer an effeminate lead (which I identify with) to a hyper-masculine lead. Again, neither portrayal is doing the artform any good, but I maintain that other genres are just as guilty of this, if not more so.
Also, while we're discussing innovation, look up the original Phantasy Star. I view it as the earliest form of feminist discourse in console gaming, and it's still an amazing game in terms of gameplay and plotting. We're given a female lead who isn't hypersexual or weak. She is actually a strong woman....I'm just sayin'.
Also, I'm not arguing or picking on anyone, in case that isn't clear. JRPGs have been my genre of choice since I was five, so I've been playing these games for a long time and feel passionately about them.
I don't know why there's so much hate for/against any genre or sub-genre. You don't like it? Don't play it! I think the argument that JRPGs are "soiling" the RPG genre as a whole is silly. You don't see sports fans complaining that FPS games are hurting that genre, or that MMOs are doing damage to puzzle games. The fact that we even have a term called "Japanese RPG" should be a good thing for folks who don't like those games, since there's now an established name for this sub-genre, which makes those games easier to avoid.
Anyway, as for the root question, "Are RPGs dying?" ... of course not. The fact that the OP admits not playing games like Mass Effect, or discounting Fallout 3, makes his post rather shaky. I'm fine with starting a discussion like this, but at least do some research first. Otherwise, you look uninformed, and all you'll get is people responding "Well, have you tried X?" or "Just because you don't like Y doesn't mean you can discount it" ... which is exactly what happened here.
There are plenty of RPGs that have been released recently, and plenty more on the way. Just because you don't like all or some of them, doesn't mean the genre is dying. Especially when many of the recently released games are selling quite well! What it probably means is that for you, the genre is "dying" or at least, no longer becoming interesting.
I don't think that they are dying, so much as they just tend to conform to similar plot points, its just in the nature of the genre.
Admittedly, FFXII was refreshing simply because there was less ancient evil and more backstabbing politics.
Persona 3 is set in a high school with kids who shoot themselves in the head to hunt demons.
I have noticed that I'm angling more towards RPGs that don't have the whole ancient world ending evil. Its encouraging to see more of these showing up.
Like that one on the way thats set in WW2 with Nazi zombies vs Allied werewolves. Thats just awesome.
I don't think that they are dying, so much as they just tend to conform to similar plot points, its just in the nature of the genre.
Admittedly, FFXII was refreshing simply because there was less ancient evil and more backstabbing politics.
Persona 3 is set in a high school with kids who shoot themselves in the head to hunt demons.
I have noticed that I'm angling more towards RPGs that don't have the whole ancient world ending evil. Its encouraging to see more of these showing up.
Like that one on the way thats set in WW2 with Nazi zombies vs Allied werewolves. Thats just awesome.
I don't think that they are dying, so much as they just tend to conform to similar plot points, its just in the nature of the genre.
Admittedly, FFXII was refreshing simply because there was less ancient evil and more backstabbing politics.
Persona 3 is set in a high school with kids who shoot themselves in the head to hunt demons.
I have noticed that I'm angling more towards RPGs that don't have the whole ancient world ending evil. Its encouraging to see more of these showing up.
Like that one on the way thats set in WW2 with Nazi zombies vs Allied werewolves. Thats just awesome.
Also, I summon you Katchem_ash!
Any minute now... Any minute.
Is anyone else keeping this window open, hitting F5 periodically, and quivering with anticipation?
Yes, RPGs are a dying genre. This has nothing to do with JRPGs, it has to do with developers being lured over to make MMOs for a cheap buck. Combined with the higher cost of making games with newer, shinier graphics, which they feel they need to do in order to sell copies. I'm sure they are afraid of piracy on the RPG's system of choice, the PC, as well.
This isn't to say that there are no longer RPGs, or that they aren't good, but they certainly are far and few between.
Morrowind is already old, Bloodlines is now about 4 years old. And we have Mass Effect. None of these are traditional RPGs, either. The Witcher is something of an action-rpg too, for that matter.
JRPGs do not compete with traditional RPGs at all, they have a different market, and a different developer base. Excepting that forgotten LOTR FFX ripoff game that came out some years ago, they are all made in, wait for it...japan. So lets keep the fight over which is better out of this.
Upset? This is the internet, Goom. I thought after a few years here you'd have grasped that! As for innovative, I'd say letting you build your own AI with the Gambit system in FFXII was a really good start, and fit the system like a glove. Storytelling is an interesting one to tackle, because you can point this one the other direction as well: how has any RPG really innovated with story recently? If you take a more open game like Oblivion or Vampire, you still end up with a lot of the same checkpoints (less so with Oblivion) and pretty much the same stuff at the end. If you simply want to value a good story over a different structure, you're dipping straight into subjectivity. I personally love the SMT games, especially Nocturne. Others (I believe apotheos is one person), however, are very put off by the plot structure of Nocturne and didn't like it at all. What can you do?
Well, you seemed pretty offended is all. I thought that Gambit system was just you telling the AI what to do instead of having to do it yourself.
But on story, I'd say that they have more than some of the stuff in JRPGs. I certainly don't go off to read stuff about JRPGs, so please forgive any ignorance, but it really looks to me that most of them either involve really young people, magic, or the top ruler of the land being evil (possibly from religion!). I'm sure the point from A to B is different per game, but honestly it's still point A to B. Plus, like I said, they can't seem to tell a story in the actual game and rely on cutscenes/droning opening about the long history of blahblahblah. Maybe I just played the wrong games, I'll openly admit that without an hesitation, but those wrong games are some that people talk about being great.
I think it's the gameplay that makes them feel "stale" to some people. Most JRPGs I've played, all play almost the same. There's innovative ones obviously, but there's alot of generic crap in there too. (This is usual for anything though)
The genre abounds with conventions that can make it feel very samey and stale if you don't like those conventions.
Plus, if you don't like Japanese-style stories, you'll hate them. Alot.
I see a lot of kneejerk hate directed at the eastern RPG, and I'm genuinely wondering what makes people feel that way.
I have never played a JRPG, unless Pokemon counts, so I can't comment on how fun the gameplay usually is. But from everything I've seen (and this includes looking at many things online and watching other people play), they look silly. Not silly in a good way, silly in a what the fuck is this shit way. I know I'm grossly oversimplifying this, but I read the plot summary for Persona 3, and it's about teenagers who fight shadows/demons by night and go to school by day (with detailed dating sim subplots!). What the fuck? I assume that this is a standard anime thing, but how the hell can anyone take that seriously at all? Teenagers, while still attending high school, are somehow the only people in all of Japan in the position to fight off the endless horde of ravenous evil that will consume the earth, and then they worry during the day about hooking up and not failing class because nobody thinks their mission of saving the world is important enough to let them sleep. And this is a plot that JRPG fans are saying, for their genre, is much better than average.
Or these painfully cute tiny enemies that have fucking fruit for heads that kept raping my friend in FF12? How does this make any sense at all? I even asked my friend what the hell these little things were, how they can have fucking apples, pumpkins, and onions for their heads, and why were they attacking him, and he said he had no idea. This is a guy who play FFXI constantly for a summer and still watches the FFX cutscenes (except for the laughing one, ugh), so I assume there *is* no explanation. They're just there. And I can't stand that. Aliens, mutations, demons, hallucinations, whatever, you have to give me something. I guess if you're into anime your suspension of disbelief blurs and you can accept these absolutely insane enemies, and that's ok. But I can't.
Oh, and in the limited exposure I've had to the cutscenes I thought the writing was fairly bad, but that could be bad translation or watching it out of context of the rest of the story (i.e. Aeris dies: is Cloud really a tool, or was Sephiroth just making shit up to try to sound cool?)
The game actually looked kind of fun, except that my friend kept yelling at his stupid party members, and he had to grind a lot to beat that damn fruit boss and catch a stupid bunny, but I don't think I can get past the absurdity and the art-style and everything else that makes them what they are.
If you have any suggestions of PS1 games that aren't at retarded FF7 prices, I'll be willing to try one just so I can have a slightly more informed opinion, I'm on an RPG binge at the moment anyway. Graphics don't bother me, but I tend to reject strongly overly sentimental, cloying plots/characters. I never got a PS2 (xbox 4 lyfe!!!!), so I missed out on a lot of what you guys are talking about.
As one who does not like JRPGs, here are some I enjoyed that weren't FF7:
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy 4 (don't play it on turn based easy mode on the GBA)
Final Fantasy Tactics
Final Fantasy 8
Final Fantasy 5
Chrono Trigger
Yes, there's a trend going there.
You can get them all on the PS1, though, I'd recommend their other ports.
Discussion of Japanese grindan games is rather offtopic however. FF 6 is superb for its time, easily the equal of traditional RPGs of that era. If you like oldschool games, pick it up. FF4 is also worth playing, for being unusually story based for a game released in 1991. Its also really hard, which is nice.
JRPGs are still going strong and have remained pretty static for, what, twenty years? There are good ones and bad ones (all of them!), and the whole JRPG developing thing isn't going anywhere. I hate them all and hope they die, but that's just me.
I get that its cool for the fans of Western RPGs to hate on the JRPG, but can someone at least justify these claims?
There are plenty of eastern games being innovative, I just get the impression that some people don't care to take notice.
I'm not trying to hate on JRPGs farther than some half-hearted jokes, but from what I've played, and I used to try quite a few of them, they haven't changed much in a long time. It could just be me not taking notice of things as they don't really appeal to me in any way, shape, or form, and even the games that I constantly see lauded as the best examples of the genre, I've hated quite a lot.
Specifically, what is it about them? I'm guessing most issues people have with JRPGs can be attributed to their playing the wrong ones.
Or maybe just a dislike of traditional menu-based combat, but there's eastern RPGs that have little or nothing to do with that(Devil Summoner, Growlanser, etc.).
I see a lot of kneejerk hate directed at the eastern RPG, and I'm genuinely wondering what makes people feel that way.
Well, there are a lot of reasons.
To start, I have nothing really against turn-based combat. In fact, I love well-done turn-based games. But regardless of that fact, I've never played a JRPG where I found the combat actually enjoyable. At worst, and by far the majority of my experience, it's tolerable for a little while and then becomes terribly boring as it forces you to do so much of it. Maybe it's the menus, I don't know, it's just boring. Even in the non-menu oriented combat, I've found that that it still devolves into mind-numbing repetition.
I'd throw random encounters in there, but I've noticed a lot more JRPGs are dumping the whole random encounter thing, which I'd be eternally grateful for were I to play JRPGs.
As for the stories, whenever they aren't being incredibly cliche and stupid, they're just so... Japanese. I don't know how else to put it, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I just don't really appreciate that for the most part, and a lot of the "depth" I've seen in plenty of JRPG stories strikes me as more grasping for meaning than it does actual depth.
And I can't say I'm very fond of Japan's take on traditional fantasy. The artistic flair that they apply to it (and repeat in exactly the same way over and over over innumerable games) just doesn't strike me as very appealing. I'm also not a big fan of technofantasy.
The characters could also use some work. They tend to be wholly unbelievable and amateurishly written. Inter-personal relationships seem poorly conceived and juvenile in their execution. Plus the Japanese and their culture and past tend to throw unreasonable personalities and beliefs onto characters in situations and professions that they just shouldn't be in as an excuse to badly philosophize or outright whine. When they're somewhat believable, they're walking cliches.
I guess I hate JRPGs because they're made by Japanese people. Nearly every JRPG I've played felt like bad anime and was just completely uninteresting all around.
JRPGs are still going strong and have remained pretty static for, what, twenty years? There are good ones and bad ones (all of them!), and the whole JRPG developing thing isn't going anywhere. I hate them all and hope they die, but that's just me.
I get that its cool for the fans of Western RPGs to hate on the JRPG, but can someone at least justify these claims?
There are plenty of eastern games being innovative, I just get the impression that some people don't care to take notice.
I'm not trying to hate on JRPGs farther than some half-hearted jokes, but from what I've played, and I used to try quite a few of them, they haven't changed much in a long time. It could just be me not taking notice of things as they don't really appeal to me in any way, shape, or form, and even the games that I constantly see lauded as the best examples of the genre, I've hated quite a lot.
Specifically, what is it about them? I'm guessing most issues people have with JRPGs can be attributed to their playing the wrong ones.
Or maybe just a dislike of traditional menu-based combat, but there's eastern RPGs that have little or nothing to do with that(Devil Summoner, Growlanser, etc.).
I see a lot of kneejerk hate directed at the eastern RPG, and I'm genuinely wondering what makes people feel that way.
Well, there are a lot of reasons.
To start, I have nothing really against turn-based combat. In fact, I love well-done turn-based games. But regardless of that fact, I've never played a JRPG where I found the combat actually enjoyable. At worst, and by far the majority of my experience, it's tolerable for a little while and then becomes terribly boring as it forces you to do so much of it. Maybe it's the menus, I don't know, it's just boring. Even in the non-menu oriented combat, I've found that that it still devolves into mind-numbing repetition.
I'd throw random encounters in there, but I've noticed a lot more JRPGs are dumping the whole random encounter thing, which I'd be eternally grateful for were I to play JRPGs.
As for the stories, whenever they aren't being incredibly cliche and stupid, they're just so... Japanese. I don't know how else to put it, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I just don't really appreciate that for the most part, and a lot of the "depth" I've seen in plenty of JRPG stories strikes me as more grasping for meaning than it does actual depth.
And I can't say I'm very fond of Japan's take on traditional fantasy. The artistic flair that they apply to it (and repeat in exactly the same way over and over over innumerable games) just doesn't strike me as very appealing. I'm also not a big fan of technofantasy.
The characters could also use some work. They tend to be wholly unbelievable and amateurishly written. Inter-personal relationships seem poorly conceived and juvenile in their execution. Plus the Japanese and their culture and past tend to throw unreasonable personalities and beliefs onto characters in situations and professions that they just shouldn't be in as an excuse to badly philosophize or outright whine. When they're somewhat believable, they're walking cliches.
I guess I hate JRPGs because they're made by Japanese people. Nearly every JRPG I've played felt like bad anime and was just completely uninteresting all around.
I do, however, still greatly enjoy Parasite Eve.
Consider yourself limed. That sums up alot of my feelings too.
I'd like to just say, With Oblivion, a game that was released back in March '06, it has come and gone so many times, and it just goes to show as a prime example that it is hard for some games to just die. With this [Mod On] thread, you can see how much attention is easily brought back into the game from something as simple as a bunch of community mods, mods that some players don't even know exactly how they affect game play.
Yeah, Pancake said what I was trying to say except better and with less swearing. I haven't really played enough to state all that confidently, so I focused on the absurdity of it all to someone outside of anime, which I still think is important. Sorry, it's late.
Thanks, FF6 sounds interesting (steampunk is cool), and I should be able to get it pretty cheap since there's the 5/6 anthology. Chrono Trigger might be even better, except that it appears to have lots of the elements that are no associated with western RPGs, which means that I might enjoy it more, but also makes this whole exercise in JRPGs mildly pointless.
Quite frankly I'd like to see a good single player RPG with the size of World of Warcraft, the graphics of Oblivion (Or better) and a plot that changes direction and gives lots of choice.
I'd also like to see no elves, orcs, goblins, dragons, dwarves or other cliche's akin to the Tolkein style. Serious, some fresh creature designs would be great.
Um, let's not use FO3 as an argument. It has as much chance of being a shallow money-grab with shiny graphics as it does of actually being a proper rpg. The Witcher, however, has proven itself beyond a shadow of a doubt.
JRPGs are still going strong and have remained pretty static for, what, twenty years? There are good ones and bad ones (all of them!), and the whole JRPG developing thing isn't going anywhere. I hate them all and hope they die, but that's just me.
I get that its cool for the fans of Western RPGs to hate on the JRPG, but can someone at least justify these claims?
There are plenty of eastern games being innovative, I just get the impression that some people don't care to take notice.
I'm not trying to hate on JRPGs farther than some half-hearted jokes, but from what I've played, and I used to try quite a few of them, they haven't changed much in a long time. It could just be me not taking notice of things as they don't really appeal to me in any way, shape, or form, and even the games that I constantly see lauded as the best examples of the genre, I've hated quite a lot.
Specifically, what is it about them? I'm guessing most issues people have with JRPGs can be attributed to their playing the wrong ones.
Or maybe just a dislike of traditional menu-based combat, but there's eastern RPGs that have little or nothing to do with that(Devil Summoner, Growlanser, etc.).
I see a lot of kneejerk hate directed at the eastern RPG, and I'm genuinely wondering what makes people feel that way.
As for the stories, whenever they aren't being incredibly cliche and stupid, they're just so... Japanese. I don't know how else to put it, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I just don't really appreciate that for the most part, and a lot of the "depth" I've seen in plenty of JRPG stories strikes me as more grasping for meaning than it does actual depth.
I guess I hate JRPGs because they're made by Japanese people. Nearly every JRPG I've played felt like bad anime and was just completely uninteresting all around.
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
I think whether an RPG is good or not depends on the quality of the game itself. The good ones make me care about most of the characters (there are always a few I don't like/care about but whatever) and are enjoyable to play.
I think whether an RPG is good or not depends on the quality of the game itself. The good ones make me care about most of the characters (there are always a few I don't like/care about but whatever) and are enjoyable to play.
The best old RPGs make you care about your own faceless heroes, who have no personality other than what you imagine them to have.
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Upset? This is the internet, Goom. I thought after a few years here you'd have grasped that! As for innovative, I'd say letting you build your own AI with the Gambit system in FFXII was a really good start, and fit the system like a glove. Storytelling is an interesting one to tackle, because you can point this one the other direction as well: how has any RPG really innovated with story recently? If you take a more open game like Oblivion or Vampire, you still end up with a lot of the same checkpoints (less so with Oblivion) and pretty much the same stuff at the end. If you simply want to value a good story over a different structure, you're dipping straight into subjectivity. I personally love the SMT games, especially Nocturne. Others (I believe apotheos is one person), however, are very put off by the plot structure of Nocturne and didn't like it at all. What can you do?
If their is anything worse than generic RPG stories is the dickheads that insist that you're a moron for not appreciating the generic RPG stories, as if you're wiping your ass with William Shakespeare.
Western RPGs tend to follow generic rulesets as well, you cock, with a few notable exceptions. It's the same way in JRPGs.
Oh, congratulations, you made a Zelda game too! Lets all bitch about those now and get the party started.
Here is a random western RPG: a farmer comes back to his farm to find that his family has been killed by grue, which are being controlled by an evil wizard. Starting off with a pitchfork, somehow the farmer finds this really fucking awesome armor, and a sword that outshines that of the morning sun, which he uses to defeat the wizard. The end.
Occasionally, however, the character gets to make some morally questionable choices which have absolutely no effect on the ending.
I listed a few in my initial reply, but to be more specific:
Devil Summoner: takes place in the early 1900s, following the 13th in a line of ancestral Devil Summoners. Takes on a job with a freelance detective agency to investigate a soulless army and a kidnapping. Fights with a gun, sword, and a demonic army.
Nocturne: Post-modern. All of humanity killed in a global apocalypse; the player becomes a half-human/half-demon who can either remake the world or destroy it, based on siding with one of various 'Reasons'(ranging from aiding religious fanatics to power-mad creatures set on destroying the weak to Lucifer himself).
Shadow Hearts(Covenant): Early 20th century, takes place during World War 1. Ex-German soldier joins up with a person that can take the forms of various demons. Also involves Rasputin, for whatever reason(different developer). The original's supposed to be the best in the series, but I haven't played it.
Earthbound: Boy and his bicycle set out with his three best friends to fight aliens and occasionally shop at malls. Fairly one-of-a-kind.
Then there's the classic likes of Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI, which might seem cliched nowadays, but they set the standard back then.
Or they affect the ending in some manner, but there is no inherent middle ground; you are either a nature and wholesome goodness loving faggot, or a malicious vile villain who drinks the sweat from Satan's balls as a protein shake for breakfast every morning.
I, too, am baffled as to why disparaging JRPGs is the cool thing to do. Looking at my game collection, I can see that about 2/3 of my 60 or so games are JRPGs. A lot of the other games in my collection are western RPGs. I don't really dig shooters (of the shmup or the FPS varieties), but you damn well better believe that I've played Deus Ex, System Shock 2, and Half-Life 2, because I'm willing to engage genres that I normally don't like. I understand that JRPGs are a niche within a niche genre, but some people (myself obviously included) still dig menu based combat.
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne starts out with our world ending and the remainder of the game consists of humans & demons fighting over how what philosophy the new world will be ruled by.
Lost Odyssey tells the story of an immortal over a 1000 year period through various short stories.
Chrono Trigger consists of a group of heroes traveling back and forth through time to stop an alien infestation in the future.
Devil Summoner is the story of a detective agency/demon fighting unit in Japan in the early 1900s.
The Valkyrie Profile series & Odin Sphere use Norse mythology as a base instead of the traditional European mythologies.
And so on and so on. That's just the story aspect; I could go on and on about innovative gameplay systems in various JRPGs. Really, most of the complaints levied towards JRPGs seem to be a result of either 1) playing the wrong JRPGs or 2) expecting a non-linear game and being disappointed when you don't get one. Here's the thing: some people actually prefer linear games.
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But on story, I'd say that they have more than some of the stuff in JRPGs. I certainly don't go off to read stuff about JRPGs, so please forgive any ignorance, but it really looks to me that most of them either involve really young people, magic, or the top ruler of the land being evil (possibly from religion!). I'm sure the point from A to B is different per game, but honestly it's still point A to B. Plus, like I said, they can't seem to tell a story in the actual game and rely on cutscenes/droning opening about the long history of blahblahblah. Maybe I just played the wrong games, I'll openly admit that without an hesitation, but those wrong games are some that people talk about being great.
To be fair, in Vampire, you're pretty much hellbound no matter what you do.
That is, in fact, exactly what it is. What this does is finally allow for fast-based (or you can set the slider and draw it out) concurrent combat without having AI that you constantly feel the need to scream at for being fucking retarded (STAR OCEAN 3 GRSGSFDSfsd). With the removal of the whole "entering battle" thing it catches up to and surpasses almost every other RPG (western or weeabo) I've played in terms of how fun combat is.
There might have been one or two in Nocturne, but they were probably the first to have their souls eaten.
The average SMT female is more likely to disembowel you with a giant claw that used to be an arm.
Though I'd say some specific franchises could use a kick in the ass. Pokémon for example has been the same thing for 5 games, which is kinda weird, as the best part was the collectibility which was done amazingly well with Pokémon Snap, but then abandoned in favor of the tired old Dragon Warrior RPG system for the next 3 installments.
Zelda, while not an RPG, has also become tiredly predictable. But that's another rant.
My advice is play another genre for a little while, RPGs are not the only games out there with stories, and they certainly aren't the best.
Also what constitutes a western RPG is becoming a bit muddle nowadays. They run the gamut from FPS to D&D style turn based affairs.
I agree that JRPGs still have a long way to go in terms of accurate and appropriate portrayals of sexuality and gender (particularly with regards to queer characters, the acupuncturist in Shadow Hearts makes me want to stab someone), but the pendulum seems to swing in the completely opposite direction for action games and shooters. I would prefer an effeminate lead (which I identify with) to a hyper-masculine lead. Again, neither portrayal is doing the artform any good, but I maintain that other genres are just as guilty of this, if not more so.
Also, while we're discussing innovation, look up the original Phantasy Star. I view it as the earliest form of feminist discourse in console gaming, and it's still an amazing game in terms of gameplay and plotting. We're given a female lead who isn't hypersexual or weak. She is actually a strong woman....I'm just sayin'.
Also, I'm not arguing or picking on anyone, in case that isn't clear. JRPGs have been my genre of choice since I was five, so I've been playing these games for a long time and feel passionately about them.
I don't know why there's so much hate for/against any genre or sub-genre. You don't like it? Don't play it! I think the argument that JRPGs are "soiling" the RPG genre as a whole is silly. You don't see sports fans complaining that FPS games are hurting that genre, or that MMOs are doing damage to puzzle games. The fact that we even have a term called "Japanese RPG" should be a good thing for folks who don't like those games, since there's now an established name for this sub-genre, which makes those games easier to avoid.
Anyway, as for the root question, "Are RPGs dying?" ... of course not. The fact that the OP admits not playing games like Mass Effect, or discounting Fallout 3, makes his post rather shaky. I'm fine with starting a discussion like this, but at least do some research first. Otherwise, you look uninformed, and all you'll get is people responding "Well, have you tried X?" or "Just because you don't like Y doesn't mean you can discount it" ... which is exactly what happened here.
There are plenty of RPGs that have been released recently, and plenty more on the way. Just because you don't like all or some of them, doesn't mean the genre is dying. Especially when many of the recently released games are selling quite well! What it probably means is that for you, the genre is "dying" or at least, no longer becoming interesting.
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Admittedly, FFXII was refreshing simply because there was less ancient evil and more backstabbing politics.
Persona 3 is set in a high school with kids who shoot themselves in the head to hunt demons.
I have noticed that I'm angling more towards RPGs that don't have the whole ancient world ending evil. Its encouraging to see more of these showing up.
Like that one on the way thats set in WW2 with Nazi zombies vs Allied werewolves. Thats just awesome.
Also, I summon you Katchem_ash!
Any minute now... Any minute.
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This isn't to say that there are no longer RPGs, or that they aren't good, but they certainly are far and few between.
Morrowind is already old, Bloodlines is now about 4 years old. And we have Mass Effect. None of these are traditional RPGs, either. The Witcher is something of an action-rpg too, for that matter.
JRPGs do not compete with traditional RPGs at all, they have a different market, and a different developer base. Excepting that forgotten LOTR FFX ripoff game that came out some years ago, they are all made in, wait for it...japan. So lets keep the fight over which is better out of this.
I think it's the gameplay that makes them feel "stale" to some people. Most JRPGs I've played, all play almost the same. There's innovative ones obviously, but there's alot of generic crap in there too. (This is usual for anything though)
The genre abounds with conventions that can make it feel very samey and stale if you don't like those conventions.
Plus, if you don't like Japanese-style stories, you'll hate them. Alot.
Or these painfully cute tiny enemies that have fucking fruit for heads that kept raping my friend in FF12? How does this make any sense at all? I even asked my friend what the hell these little things were, how they can have fucking apples, pumpkins, and onions for their heads, and why were they attacking him, and he said he had no idea. This is a guy who play FFXI constantly for a summer and still watches the FFX cutscenes (except for the laughing one, ugh), so I assume there *is* no explanation. They're just there. And I can't stand that. Aliens, mutations, demons, hallucinations, whatever, you have to give me something. I guess if you're into anime your suspension of disbelief blurs and you can accept these absolutely insane enemies, and that's ok. But I can't.
Oh, and in the limited exposure I've had to the cutscenes I thought the writing was fairly bad, but that could be bad translation or watching it out of context of the rest of the story (i.e. Aeris dies: is Cloud really a tool, or was Sephiroth just making shit up to try to sound cool?)
The game actually looked kind of fun, except that my friend kept yelling at his stupid party members, and he had to grind a lot to beat that damn fruit boss and catch a stupid bunny, but I don't think I can get past the absurdity and the art-style and everything else that makes them what they are.
If you have any suggestions of PS1 games that aren't at retarded FF7 prices, I'll be willing to try one just so I can have a slightly more informed opinion, I'm on an RPG binge at the moment anyway. Graphics don't bother me, but I tend to reject strongly overly sentimental, cloying plots/characters. I never got a PS2 (xbox 4 lyfe!!!!), so I missed out on a lot of what you guys are talking about.
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy 4 (don't play it on turn based easy mode on the GBA)
Final Fantasy Tactics
Final Fantasy 8
Final Fantasy 5
Chrono Trigger
Yes, there's a trend going there.
You can get them all on the PS1, though, I'd recommend their other ports.
Discussion of Japanese grindan games is rather offtopic however. FF 6 is superb for its time, easily the equal of traditional RPGs of that era. If you like oldschool games, pick it up. FF4 is also worth playing, for being unusually story based for a game released in 1991. Its also really hard, which is nice.
Well, there are a lot of reasons.
To start, I have nothing really against turn-based combat. In fact, I love well-done turn-based games. But regardless of that fact, I've never played a JRPG where I found the combat actually enjoyable. At worst, and by far the majority of my experience, it's tolerable for a little while and then becomes terribly boring as it forces you to do so much of it. Maybe it's the menus, I don't know, it's just boring. Even in the non-menu oriented combat, I've found that that it still devolves into mind-numbing repetition.
I'd throw random encounters in there, but I've noticed a lot more JRPGs are dumping the whole random encounter thing, which I'd be eternally grateful for were I to play JRPGs.
As for the stories, whenever they aren't being incredibly cliche and stupid, they're just so... Japanese. I don't know how else to put it, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I just don't really appreciate that for the most part, and a lot of the "depth" I've seen in plenty of JRPG stories strikes me as more grasping for meaning than it does actual depth.
And I can't say I'm very fond of Japan's take on traditional fantasy. The artistic flair that they apply to it (and repeat in exactly the same way over and over over innumerable games) just doesn't strike me as very appealing. I'm also not a big fan of technofantasy.
The characters could also use some work. They tend to be wholly unbelievable and amateurishly written. Inter-personal relationships seem poorly conceived and juvenile in their execution. Plus the Japanese and their culture and past tend to throw unreasonable personalities and beliefs onto characters in situations and professions that they just shouldn't be in as an excuse to badly philosophize or outright whine. When they're somewhat believable, they're walking cliches.
I guess I hate JRPGs because they're made by Japanese people. Nearly every JRPG I've played felt like bad anime and was just completely uninteresting all around.
I do, however, still greatly enjoy Parasite Eve.
Consider yourself limed. That sums up alot of my feelings too.
I have a serious problem with non-squaresoft games, and even Square-enix's crap though. For the above reasons.
Thanks, FF6 sounds interesting (steampunk is cool), and I should be able to get it pretty cheap since there's the 5/6 anthology. Chrono Trigger might be even better, except that it appears to have lots of the elements that are no associated with western RPGs, which means that I might enjoy it more, but also makes this whole exercise in JRPGs mildly pointless.
Um, let's not use FO3 as an argument. It has as much chance of being a shallow money-grab with shiny graphics as it does of actually being a proper rpg. The Witcher, however, has proven itself beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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The best old RPGs make you care about your own faceless heroes, who have no personality other than what you imagine them to have.
Also, "Are Role Playing Game games dying?"