I don't know what you're trying to say, but what I see you saying is something like this:
"You can find simple dialogue (i.e. without exposition) here."
That's a silly thing to say because simple dialogue is not the same as non-expository dialogue. How about a game with a rich, complex plot that is shown, not told, to us?
Etrian Odyssey does have a plot, but it isn't spelled out. It's hinted at the deeper you go into the labyrinth.
If you aren't there for the story, you might not figure it out at all. There's small notes and subtle pieces of information about the environment scattered around the ends of certain tunnels that can be completely overlooked.
Up until the fifth stratum, it's basically 'here's a forest, go explore it for us'. After that, it starts going against convention.
I think I'm going to have to post an 'in mah day' - because, as far as I can tell, the RPG games OP is talking about havent gotten much beyond the old Apple 2e game "Wizardry". Elder Scrolls:Morrowind was something of an exception, but overall, I cant say I've seen anything that compares to pen & paper - aka Real RPGs.
Baldur's Gate II was great because it just went on and on and on - but there wasnt much of a role to play - a. "How dare you speak to a Child of Baal like that! b. Eat sword, foul temptress or c. Thats very interesting, yes, I would like to save on my long distance bill - but I'm always the kind of gamer that looks for option d. none of the above. I look for the wierd solution, or the funny one. Until you can get that sort of game into a computerized RPG, they're all going to be essentially the same hack and slash rehash.
Sword_of_Light on
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. "
Yes, it does have a plot. However, the plot really only factors in at... hmmm, halfway of the fourth stratum, more or less? Although there're a couple of hints beforehand if you're paying attention. That's why I said there's barely a plot - more than half, nearly 3/4 of the game exists without anything beyond 'Go explore' at all.
Also, the guy in question didn't ask for 'deep plots that are given without exposition'. He asked for 'No exposition'.
Also, the guy in question didn't ask for 'deep plots that are given without exposition'. He asked for 'No exposition'.
Right, and then you saw fit to throw plot out the window too for some reason. I find that odd and perhaps telling.
Telling of what? Etrian Odyssey is an awesome game that has almost nothing in way of expository dialogue. It meets the requirements set down by the guy who asked for it. So I recommended he go try it.
*shrugs* The way you behave like plots are essential to videogames or jRPGs is equally telling, if anything.
Also, the guy in question didn't ask for 'deep plots that are given without exposition'. He asked for 'No exposition'.
Right, and then you saw fit to throw plot out the window too for some reason. I find that odd and perhaps telling.
You know what you get when you go looking for a deep storyline and convincing character with no exposition whatsoever? Dissapointment. Even fucking Shakespeare built in expositional content and extensive monologues as a major feature of his best stuff, and I'd just LOVE to see you explain to me that 'Othello' was a piece of shit because Iago whines on and on and on to the audience and Othello is just a jealous emo bitch who should grow a pair.
Clearly he did it pretty well. It seems like what you really want is better writing in games in general, as well as for the medium to move past its habit of (poorly) imitating past media like plays and movies. Well, join the club - but tossing all exposition isn't the clear cut solution that will bring that about. I think it's more the other way around.
You know what you get when you go looking for a deep storyline and convincing character with no exposition whatsoever? Dissapointment.
I disagree. I saw No Country for Old Men a couple of weeks ago. Any exposition - and there was hardly any - was not there just to tell the viewers what was going on. It served to show insights into the characters and themes of the film without beating us over the head with them. If you're going to have exposition - and I understand that sometimes it's necessary - then don't make it so painfully obvious that it's there for the benefit of the audience rather than the characters in the story.
Even fucking Shakespeare built in expositional content and extensive monologues as a major feature of his best stuff, and I'd just LOVE to see you explain to me that 'Othello' was a piece of shit because Iago whines on and on and on to the audience and Othello is just a jealous emo bitch who should grow a pair.
Sure, Shakespeare did all kinds of things, but he was a genius with both words and storytelling so he gets a pass.
Clearly he did it pretty well. It seems like what you really want is better writing in games in general, as well as for the medium to move past its habit of (poorly) imitating past media like plays and movies. Well, join the club - but tossing all exposition isn't the clear cut solution that will bring that about. I think it's more the other way around.
Adding exposition? Well, I guess we'll just have to take our respective schools of thought and go our separate ways then.
Also, the guy in question didn't ask for 'deep plots that are given without exposition'. He asked for 'No exposition'.
Right, and then you saw fit to throw plot out the window too for some reason. I find that odd and perhaps telling.
You know what you get when you go looking for a deep storyline and convincing character with no exposition whatsoever? Dissapointment. Even fucking Shakespeare built in expositional content and extensive monologues as a major feature of his best stuff, and I'd just LOVE to see you explain to me that 'Othello' was a piece of shit because Iago whines on and on and on to the audience and Othello is just a jealous emo bitch who should grow a pair.
Clearly he did it pretty well. It seems like what you really want is better writing in games in general, as well as for the medium to move past its habit of (poorly) imitating past media like plays and movies. Well, join the club - but tossing all exposition isn't the clear cut solution that will bring that about. I think it's more the other way around.
Logical Fallacy spotted: Argumentum ad Verecundiam, or in less pretentious terms, "Argument from Authority"
This involves stating that a claim is true because a person or group of perceived authority says it is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. It is reasonable to give more credence to the claims of those with the proper background, education, and credentials, or to be suspicious of the claims of someone making authoritative statements in an area for which they cannot demonstrate expertise. But the truth of a claim should ultimately rest on logic and evidence, not the authority of the person promoting it.
There's plenty of games with good plot and stories that are almost completely devoid of exposition. Half-Life 2 for example. Which we're actually talking about right now in the HL2 thread.
That's a silly thing to say because simple dialogue is not the same as non-expository dialogue. How about a game with a rich, complex plot that is shown, not told, to us?
Just to re-emphasize, this. This is precisely what I was saying we needed more of in the first place.
Did you go out of your way to quote Latin to counter a very simple idea as a way of accusing ME of using false authority to prop up a spurious argument? Nicely done.
It's a simple concept. He seems to be of the opinion that exposition and any kind of monolgue inherently makes for a shitty experience. On that point he's factually fucking wrong, and I provided a well known and highly thought of counterexample.
Granted, there ARE some examples of storylines presented very well with little in the way of exposition - Shadow of the Colossus is one of my favorite games and falls into that category - but attempting that type of presentation by is not necessarily 'better'. It certainly CAN be, but the opinion that exposition and monologue are ALWAYS crude and unworthy is just absurd. Notice that I didn't even argue that there weren't poorly done or overused in JRPGs in general, because they clearly are. But that doesn't mean they are the devil incarnate, and when used well they'll have their place in gaming for a long time.
This whole thing just seems like a couple of you getting out of shape about how JRPGs are horrible abortions with no redeeming value whatsoever and must have been conceived by demon possesed Nazis - they are things of no value whatsoever, and they wriggle into your brain and lay evil eggs of evil that corrupt minds and collapse the societies of the world so that they can resurrect Zombie Hitler and take over the world.
The fact that this is actually a better plotline than many JRPGs shows that you have a point about the genre in many ways, but it seems to be getting carried a bit too far.
Also, the guy in question didn't ask for 'deep plots that are given without exposition'. He asked for 'No exposition'.
Right, and then you saw fit to throw plot out the window too for some reason. I find that odd and perhaps telling.
You know what you get when you go looking for a deep storyline and convincing character with no exposition whatsoever? Dissapointment. Even fucking Shakespeare built in expositional content and extensive monologues as a major feature of his best stuff, and I'd just LOVE to see you explain to me that 'Othello' was a piece of shit because Iago whines on and on and on to the audience and Othello is just a jealous emo bitch who should grow a pair.
Clearly he did it pretty well. It seems like what you really want is better writing in games in general, as well as for the medium to move past its habit of (poorly) imitating past media like plays and movies. Well, join the club - but tossing all exposition isn't the clear cut solution that will bring that about. I think it's more the other way around.
Logical Fallacy spotted: Argumentum ad Verecundiam, or in less pretentious terms, "Argument from Authority"
Um, no. It's not argument from authority to say that someone famously made copious and flowery exposition work very well. It's just a fact, and it's used to refute people who say that exposition is bad.
You can hide or trick people into believing that it's not there or whatever but all narrative is built on a pretty simple formula, and you just can't do it without exposition. And, if done well, even obvious and noticeable expository elements can be extremely compelling.
Also, isn't it some kind of argument from authority to quote the stupid fucking logical fallacies in the first place? No one likes that stuf. Do the internet a favor and delete the text file you c/v from.
RedShell on
Homing In Imperfectly?
Pokemans D/P: 1289 4685 0522
This is not an exposition versus no exposition deal. I don't think any of us are retarded enough to believe those are the only two options, I hope at least.
Lets refer back to the original post on this subject.
Also, the guy in question didn't ask for 'deep plots that are given without exposition'. He asked for 'No exposition'.
Right, and then you saw fit to throw plot out the window too for some reason. I find that odd and perhaps telling.
You know what you get when you go looking for a deep storyline and convincing character with no exposition whatsoever? Dissapointment. Even fucking Shakespeare built in expositional content and extensive monologues as a major feature of his best stuff, and I'd just LOVE to see you explain to me that 'Othello' was a piece of shit because Iago whines on and on and on to the audience and Othello is just a jealous emo bitch who should grow a pair.
Clearly he did it pretty well. It seems like what you really want is better writing in games in general, as well as for the medium to move past its habit of (poorly) imitating past media like plays and movies. Well, join the club - but tossing all exposition isn't the clear cut solution that will bring that about. I think it's more the other way around.
So now we're directly comparing passive vs active forms of entertainment? You know what needs more monologues? Kickboxing. Why? Because Shakespeare was good at them.
Pb on
0
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
Also, the guy in question didn't ask for 'deep plots that are given without exposition'. He asked for 'No exposition'.
Right, and then you saw fit to throw plot out the window too for some reason. I find that odd and perhaps telling.
You know what you get when you go looking for a deep storyline and convincing character with no exposition whatsoever? Dissapointment. Even fucking Shakespeare built in expositional content and extensive monologues as a major feature of his best stuff, and I'd just LOVE to see you explain to me that 'Othello' was a piece of shit because Iago whines on and on and on to the audience and Othello is just a jealous emo bitch who should grow a pair.
Clearly he did it pretty well. It seems like what you really want is better writing in games in general, as well as for the medium to move past its habit of (poorly) imitating past media like plays and movies. Well, join the club - but tossing all exposition isn't the clear cut solution that will bring that about. I think it's more the other way around.
So now we're directly comparing passive vs active forms of entertainment? You know what needs more monologues? Kickboxing. Why? Because Shakespeare was good at them.
To be fair, Kickboxing + Monologues = AWESOME
FireWeasel on
AC:CL Wii -- 3824-2125-9336 City: Felinito Me: Nick
Hmm, that's 10 syllables, but not the right alternation of stressed/not stressed for iambic pentameter.
I don't believe I'm jumping in here, but that looks iambic to me.
Except I'm not sure if the last syllable of incredible is really stressed. It certainly can be, but it's normally not considered as such.
It's stressed compared to the "i" preceding, so it counts.
If we really want to be pedantic, though, I think Vegeta says that Goku's power level is "unbelievable."
Anyway, RE: the state of RPGs, I'm sort of annoyed that the last two I've played on the computer didn't feel finished. KoTOR 2 was pretty much literally unfinished, and Oblivion (which I've only played a small amount of) really needs mods to get around some silly things (like the omniscient guards). I don't think it's a trend, but with Oblivion it certainly is going to steer me away from console versions of RPGs that also have a computer release.
Anyway, RE: the state of RPGs, I'm sort of annoyed that the last two I've played on the computer didn't feel finished. KoTOR 2 was pretty much literally unfinished, and Oblivion (which I've only played a small amount of) really needs mods to get around some silly things (like the omniscient guards). I don't think it's a trend, but with Oblivion it certainly is going to steer me away from console versions of RPGs that also have a computer release.
KoTOR 2 was a pretty good game but it ran so bad sometimes. The frame rate turned into a slide show, but I do wonder if it ran any better on the PC version? Wasn't KoTOR 2 released on the PC as well? I know the first one was.
I think I'm going to have to post an 'in mah day' - because, as far as I can tell, the RPG games OP is talking about havent gotten much beyond the old Apple 2e game "Wizardry". Elder Scrolls:Morrowind was something of an exception, but overall, I cant say I've seen anything that compares to pen & paper - aka Real RPGs.
This is obvious. Short of NWN where you could have a DM on the connection, there is no way these games are at all similar to pen & paper RPGs. MMOs allow you to get together as a group, especially in instances, but it's still all content generated from the server. I don't know of any game or other tech that will dynamically generate and modify content based on infinite probabilties, but you shouldn't piss on the genre just because we can't have SkyNET installed.
Baldur's Gate II was great because it just went on and on and on - but there wasnt much of a role to play - a. "How dare you speak to a Child of Baal like that! b. Eat sword, foul temptress or c. Thats very interesting, yes, I would like to save on my long distance bill - but I'm always the kind of gamer that looks for option d. none of the above. I look for the wierd solution, or the funny one. Until you can get that sort of game into a computerized RPG, they're all going to be essentially the same hack and slash rehash.
They kind of had that in the QFG and Fallout series with multiple solutions for multple problems, combat and otherwise, but there's still gonna be a limit.
I do think that it's interesting how you can have WRPGSs that have such bipolarism in interaction and how you can have JRPGs which are essentially not interactive at all except for clicking "next". I don't know if that's a matter of assumptions made by the developers as to what their audience expects/who their audience is or if there is a more pervasive cultural influence.
'Cause I grew up in the North America, I can easily see where the heavy good/evil influence comes in, especially in the past 60 years. However, the "entertainment on rails" in Asia is a bit different for me to explain.
However, from my perspective, it seems that the focal point of RPG's has shifted as the platforms have gotten more advanced.
I think RPG developers are still trying to master implementing basic RPG systems in a full 3D environment and do it well.
I find that the RPG's with stronger storylines and mechanics (Arcanum, KOTOR for example) tend to have weaker attributes in other areas such as graphics or interface, etc.
Then there are some games which are the opposite. In my opinion, Oblivion had great graphics, etc, but had again, in my opinion, lame mechanics and sort of a thrown together storyline. But I profess that I am not a big fan of Elder Scrolls to begin with.
Actually I believe Western-style RPGs are on the rise, and JRPGs are on the downfall. Maybe it's because of the ancient game mechanics, the cliche'd plots and generic characters. Maybe.
Actually I believe Western-style RPGs are on the rise, and JRPGs are on the downfall. Maybe it's because of the ancient game mechanics, the cliche'd plots and generic characters. Maybe.
That's odd, because FF sales numbers have stayed pretty much the same over time and Dragon Warrior numbers have gone up (in America). And there are just as many popular niche RPGs as usual, with the Disgaea and it's spinoffs and the SMT series.
Those are two established series, and while both might sell very well, Random JRPG #47 isn't. Mass Effect and KoTOR are two good examples of Western RPGs that are doing very well, and more are on the way. I can't predict the future, but I see Western-style games dominating the market in the future.
The UK's idea of Japanese game's is kinda "Eh? What?" then they sign up a game thats 2 editions out of the current release in the USA and market it as a budget/cutprice jobbie in GAME, £14.99 for 'Disgaea' even though Disgaea 2 had been out for ages but had no release date in the UK, they did the same for Shadow Hearts 3, was like trying to find gold dust and only independant stores held the title because GAME and others just though 'Meh! Stupid Japanese silliness game!' and didn't stock it or ordered about 3 copies total.
I predict similar events when No More Heroes is out, Killer7 was a bitch to find.
Resident0 on
0
SirUltimosDon't talk, Rusty. Just paint.Registered Userregular
Those are two established series, and while both might sell very well, Random JRPG #47 isn't. Mass Effect and KoTOR are two good examples of Western RPGs that are doing very well, and more are on the way. I can't predict the future, but I see Western-style games dominating the market in the future.
I think this is dead wrong. Other than Mass Effect and KoToR how many WRPG's have been released lately and did well? I can only think of Oblivion besides from those two that made a big impact.
And if FF and DQ don't count then KoToR doesn't either. It had the Star Wars license attached, which is about a big a franchise as you can get.
JRPGs are on the downfall. Maybe it's because of the ancient game mechanics, the cliche'd plots and generic characters. Maybe.
Tales of would like a word with you... mostly on the game mechanics part, I'm sorry but if you don't want deep 2 button combat with 40+ spells in full party mode, what's wrong with you.
The problem is that people stereotype jRPGS, like with FF, which is just a joke.
support the "playing JRPGs that aren't FF" movement!
seriously im worried. these are truly the end of days. duke nukem forever is coming out, and the best nintendo ds game on the horizon is a sonic the hedgehog rpg by bioware.
Brawl: 4983-4625-3928
0
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited January 2008
How come now one has mentioned Vagrant Story and how awesome it is? I suppose it is a bit old, but when it comes to JRPGs I'd say Vagrant Story is one of the best. If not the best.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Posts
Etrian Odyssey does have a plot, but it isn't spelled out. It's hinted at the deeper you go into the labyrinth.
If you aren't there for the story, you might not figure it out at all. There's small notes and subtle pieces of information about the environment scattered around the ends of certain tunnels that can be completely overlooked.
Up until the fifth stratum, it's basically 'here's a forest, go explore it for us'. After that, it starts going against convention.
Okay, now I'm confused.
Baldur's Gate II was great because it just went on and on and on - but there wasnt much of a role to play - a. "How dare you speak to a Child of Baal like that! b. Eat sword, foul temptress or c. Thats very interesting, yes, I would like to save on my long distance bill - but I'm always the kind of gamer that looks for option d. none of the above. I look for the wierd solution, or the funny one. Until you can get that sort of game into a computerized RPG, they're all going to be essentially the same hack and slash rehash.
Also, the guy in question didn't ask for 'deep plots that are given without exposition'. He asked for 'No exposition'.
Platinum FC: 2880 3245 5111
Telling of what? Etrian Odyssey is an awesome game that has almost nothing in way of expository dialogue. It meets the requirements set down by the guy who asked for it. So I recommended he go try it.
*shrugs* The way you behave like plots are essential to videogames or jRPGs is equally telling, if anything.
Platinum FC: 2880 3245 5111
Clearly he did it pretty well. It seems like what you really want is better writing in games in general, as well as for the medium to move past its habit of (poorly) imitating past media like plays and movies. Well, join the club - but tossing all exposition isn't the clear cut solution that will bring that about. I think it's more the other way around.
Sure, Shakespeare did all kinds of things, but he was a genius with both words and storytelling so he gets a pass.
Adding exposition? Well, I guess we'll just have to take our respective schools of thought and go our separate ways then.
Logical Fallacy spotted: Argumentum ad Verecundiam, or in less pretentious terms, "Argument from Authority"
Just to re-emphasize, this. This is precisely what I was saying we needed more of in the first place.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
It's a simple concept. He seems to be of the opinion that exposition and any kind of monolgue inherently makes for a shitty experience. On that point he's factually fucking wrong, and I provided a well known and highly thought of counterexample.
Granted, there ARE some examples of storylines presented very well with little in the way of exposition - Shadow of the Colossus is one of my favorite games and falls into that category - but attempting that type of presentation by is not necessarily 'better'. It certainly CAN be, but the opinion that exposition and monologue are ALWAYS crude and unworthy is just absurd. Notice that I didn't even argue that there weren't poorly done or overused in JRPGs in general, because they clearly are. But that doesn't mean they are the devil incarnate, and when used well they'll have their place in gaming for a long time.
This whole thing just seems like a couple of you getting out of shape about how JRPGs are horrible abortions with no redeeming value whatsoever and must have been conceived by demon possesed Nazis - they are things of no value whatsoever, and they wriggle into your brain and lay evil eggs of evil that corrupt minds and collapse the societies of the world so that they can resurrect Zombie Hitler and take over the world.
The fact that this is actually a better plotline than many JRPGs shows that you have a point about the genre in many ways, but it seems to be getting carried a bit too far.
Pokemans D/P: 1289 4685 0522
Lets refer back to the original post on this subject.
Go-go gadget bold.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
So now we're directly comparing passive vs active forms of entertainment? You know what needs more monologues? Kickboxing. Why? Because Shakespeare was good at them.
To be fair, Kickboxing + Monologues = AWESOME
I don't believe I'm jumping in here, but that looks iambic to me.
Except I'm not sure if the last syllable of incredible is really stressed. It certainly can be, but it's normally not considered as such.
It's stressed compared to the "i" preceding, so it counts.
I love you guys.
If we really want to be pedantic, though, I think Vegeta says that Goku's power level is "unbelievable."
Anyway, RE: the state of RPGs, I'm sort of annoyed that the last two I've played on the computer didn't feel finished. KoTOR 2 was pretty much literally unfinished, and Oblivion (which I've only played a small amount of) really needs mods to get around some silly things (like the omniscient guards). I don't think it's a trend, but with Oblivion it certainly is going to steer me away from console versions of RPGs that also have a computer release.
KoTOR 2 was a pretty good game but it ran so bad sometimes. The frame rate turned into a slide show, but I do wonder if it ran any better on the PC version? Wasn't KoTOR 2 released on the PC as well? I know the first one was.
They kind of had that in the QFG and Fallout series with multiple solutions for multple problems, combat and otherwise, but there's still gonna be a limit.
I do think that it's interesting how you can have WRPGSs that have such bipolarism in interaction and how you can have JRPGs which are essentially not interactive at all except for clicking "next". I don't know if that's a matter of assumptions made by the developers as to what their audience expects/who their audience is or if there is a more pervasive cultural influence.
'Cause I grew up in the North America, I can easily see where the heavy good/evil influence comes in, especially in the past 60 years. However, the "entertainment on rails" in Asia is a bit different for me to explain.
However, from my perspective, it seems that the focal point of RPG's has shifted as the platforms have gotten more advanced.
I think RPG developers are still trying to master implementing basic RPG systems in a full 3D environment and do it well.
I find that the RPG's with stronger storylines and mechanics (Arcanum, KOTOR for example) tend to have weaker attributes in other areas such as graphics or interface, etc.
Then there are some games which are the opposite. In my opinion, Oblivion had great graphics, etc, but had again, in my opinion, lame mechanics and sort of a thrown together storyline. But I profess that I am not a big fan of Elder Scrolls to begin with.
Thread answered.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
That's odd, because FF sales numbers have stayed pretty much the same over time and Dragon Warrior numbers have gone up (in America). And there are just as many popular niche RPGs as usual, with the Disgaea and it's spinoffs and the SMT series.
I predict similar events when No More Heroes is out, Killer7 was a bitch to find.
I think this is dead wrong. Other than Mass Effect and KoToR how many WRPG's have been released lately and did well? I can only think of Oblivion besides from those two that made a big impact.
And if FF and DQ don't count then KoToR doesn't either. It had the Star Wars license attached, which is about a big a franchise as you can get.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F1cOvZ3nS8
Tales of would like a word with you... mostly on the game mechanics part, I'm sorry but if you don't want deep 2 button combat with 40+ spells in full party mode, what's wrong with you.
The problem is that people stereotype jRPGS, like with FF, which is just a joke.
support the "playing JRPGs that aren't FF" movement!
!!!
So obviously there's a large audience out there for old-style, random-encounter, grindy RPGs.
Pokemans D/P: 1289 4685 0522
The game that will single-handedly save the genre.