The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Well, finally getting into BGing because I have the marks for the three pieces of gear I want and now need honor points to match...Horde are supposed to be having huge queue times for AV? I've been waiting usually under a minute, at most, all day. Winning about half of 'em.
Horde typically have very short queue times due to the fact that Alliance v Horde across most Battlegroups as a whole is 3:1. Alliance usually have the longer queue times simply because there are too many of them and not enough Horde to match up against.
I do believe however that there was an Alliance walk-out on AV on the Storm Strike (was it Storm Strike?) battlegroup. Alliance strategy was so terrible there they couldn't find their ass with both hands and a map - much less defeat an organized Horde raiding force. So they striked and complained about not doing AV anymore until they got attention. I'm not sure if they did...
Dark Helmet on
And my poor Death Knight that couldn't afford an icon.
you snare defenders between the towers and they die like the rest
I do it in nearly every AV game I play on my warrior, and when 10-15 people are there with me we win, every goddamn time
the imbalances are the seemingly impenetrable communities within the battlegroups that decided how to play AV and then somehow stopped responding to any form of change
the reason AV is such a goddamn point of drama is because the meta game behind it is so painfully silly
You nailed it. FW Keep is capable of being defended if 11-14 Horde decide to go to RH and prepare for the predictable Alliance rush. The problem is (at least on the Nightfall battlegroup) is that only 30% of the games I play, do we have a functional defense. Too many games only 4 or 5 Horde ride south to FW keep. The amazing thing is people will complain in /bg "we need more on defense at RH" - but it is people who are riding north who point this out. It baffles me how someone can recognize that by going north they may be in fact sabatoging their faction's chances of winning - and do so anyhow. I guess they assume the next guy in line will decide to double back. Ugh.
On Nightfall, defense is apparently a dirty word.
I'll admit I'm guilty of not defending much, but then again both of my 70s are pve specced, and thus, better attacking then defending :P I will defend on my mage though assuming I'm not the only one there. My paladin on the other hand is usually the sole reason we've capped Aid Station by the same time they've hit RH.
Also keep in mind, I am the kind of player who seeks to win. I could care less about honor-per-hour bullshit. If this is not a school of thought you subscribe to - I will not be offended if you disagree on all counts based purely on that fact.
Limed for truth. I wish I could have said that but if I did it would come out....rude
Well, finally getting into BGing because I have the marks for the three pieces of gear I want and now need honor points to match...Horde are supposed to be having huge queue times for AV? I've been waiting usually under a minute, at most, all day. Winning about half of 'em.
it really depends on the battlegroup
I transferred from shadowburn to uhhh whatever cluster onyxia is on
shadowburn had over 1+ hour queue times for AV horde side and won every AV, where as on onyxia we win about half the time but have near instant queue
The amazing thing is people will complain in /bg "we need more on defense at RH" - but it is people who are riding north who point this out. It baffles me how someone can recognize that by going north they may be in fact sabatoging their faction's chances of winning - and do so anyhow. I guess they assume the next guy in line will decide to double back. Ugh.
You'll actually get more honor when you win as Horde for zerging north through the pure number of HK's you rack up, even though it's the people down south defending who actually have a major impact on the victory.
Want Alliance back in AV? Work out a strat that wins AND gives them enough honour to justify going in.
No last I checked I'm SUPPOSED to try and win. If you're interested in that as well then YOU think up some strat that gets you your own honor. This idea that you should get some honor for showing the hell up is ridiculous and that slacker attitude is what started all this afk shenanigans in the first place.
What slacker attitude. As I just said, Alliance on Vindication are back to "lol90%winz", we're doing just fine thanks, and from what I hear, Horde have instant queues and Alliance queues are like 5 minutes long.
If your battlegroups horde queues are an hour+, well I guess the alliance have found better sources of honour. What you say is true, both sides are supposed to try to win, there's no doubt about that. But there's a difference between being good sports and recognizing that there are other people playing here, rather than just someone to fuel your insatiable blood lust.
It's like those people decrying the "alliance boycotts" of AV. It's not a fucking boycott; they just got tired of earning 100 honour per hour and went into other battlegrounds in search of better honour.
And as much as we might like to think that it's all about be happy go-lucky types who play BG's for fun, when you need 180,000 honour for a set of gear, I sure as hell don't want to do it at a rate of 100 (exaggerated, but not by much) honour per hour.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Want Alliance back in AV? Work out a strat that wins AND gives them enough honour to justify going in.
But there's a difference between being good sports and recognizing that there are other people playing here, rather than just someone to fuel your insatiable blood lust.
There's no natural reason to assume that there is "bloodlust" involved. Make your own destiny. I see no reason to allow anyone on the other side of the field any points, objective, resources or whatever. It's inherently obvious to assume that you shouldn't expect any either.
would you make the correlation that I should get a flag cap for showing up to a losing Warsong Gulch ? Is a 5 cap in Arathi Basin equally un-ethical? well it is if you apply that mindset universally. It's not a denial of humanity or a lack of empathy on my part nor is it indicative of bad sportsmanship. I would consider it insulting to an already embarassing performance if I were to receive "charity" or "pity points". On the contrary it's good sportsmanship to eliminate a team as quickly and thoroughly as possible.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don't know Forar we're gonna have to disagree on this one.
Alliance in my battlegroup are still bitches though !!!
A 3 cap WSG, 4 cap EOTS or 5 cap AB, however, is usually significantly faster than a scorched earth AV. Losing in 3 minutes after a 5 minute queue is significantly less frustrating than losing in 35 minutes after a 5 minute queue.
Do I consider winning to be bad sportsmanship?
No, but I consider drawing out a game to a slow, painful win (win by reinforcements while making a point of specifically denying the other side any significant honour) to be unsporting.
I'll jump in a guild crew and 3/4/5 cap in various BG's, that's fine. What I won't tolerate is graveyard camping (unless done to us first), flag hiding, exploiting or being assholes about it. AV done in certain ways with certain unspoken rules can lead to $texas honour per hour for BOTH sides, win, lose or draw.
Just like griefing, camping or being a dick in general, I fail to see the appeal, fun or glory in not just winning, but winning in such a fashion that leaves the opposition beaten and utterly demoralized in what can otherwise be the most effecting manner of grinding honour available.
And after getting NINE characters to exalted with AV and over 2 years of playing similar (but not quite the same) map, yes, I suppose it is done partially for 'love of the game', and partially because "I don't want to spend 32 hours of my life grinding a fucking pvp trinket out for every one of them".
Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this, but I simply don't understand why the "rape, pillage and violate" method that may or may not lead to slow queue times is in any way superior to the "win as best you can but let the other side get a little piece of the carrot" method that may or may not lead to fast queue times.
I have no hard evidence, but anecdotally, your BG slaughters the opposition and sits on their thumbs a lot, whereas my BG seems to fight it out without battering down the opposition, and both factions have nearly 0 queue times.
I ask again, what's better? 1000 honour for one win and a 1 hour+ queue, or 600-800 honour for a 20 minute race and nearly 0 queue times? What your BG offers the Alliance is the former, but with like 100 honour.
Any possible reason why you think they might've stopped queueing? Any at all?
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I've given up on Pug PVP (not many in my guild do BGs, and I really dislike arena), because AV is over an hour wait, and the other BGs are 99 percent alliance premades, which is fine, except Horde instantly quit, give up, o r hop into another BG when the queue pops (so they queue for all three, then jump through them trying to find a non-premade).
I really really hope that 2.4 drastically cuts AV queue times, and that the HK change makes honor worthwhile in those BGs you can't win. Like when I join 15 BGs in a day where is like 15 vs 6 because all the Horde are bailing. What's really fun is getting into EotS and it's 4 capped because you replaced somebody that bailed.
Just like griefing, camping or being a dick in general, I fail to see the appeal, fun or glory in not just winning, but winning in such a fashion that leaves the opposition beaten and utterly demoralized in what can otherwise be the most effecting manner of grinding honour available.
I think as someone pointed out, is that you want - basically - free honor for just showing up for your efforts. I don't know about other BG's, but I've YET to see an AV where neither side got anything. Complaining that you're not getting as much honor as you'd like to get - I dunno, probably a better way of structuring that.
Alliance in my BG tend to get 0-20 honor per AV if we have 10 defenders (99% of the time we do), but then again they don't have to queue for a fucking hour to get in so I don't feel bad at all.
Just like griefing, camping or being a dick in general, I fail to see the appeal, fun or glory in not just winning, but winning in such a fashion that leaves the opposition beaten and utterly demoralized in what can otherwise be the most effecting manner of grinding honour available.
I think as someone pointed out, is that you want - basically - free honor for just showing up for your efforts. I don't know about other BG's, but I've YET to see an AV where neither side got anything. Complaining that you're not getting as much honor as you'd like to get - I dunno, probably a better way of structuring that.
Please read my posts on the subject.
Vindication Alliance are RAPING Vindication Horde. I'm getting everything I want.
I just don't see a need to be a douchebag about getting it, and working on ways to ensure that the opposition are utterly crushed is one way to ensure longer queue times.
Pre-TBC, I had 1-6 HOUR AV queues. I'm perfectly happy having 5-15 minute queues, thank you very much.
I'm not looking to get anything for nothing. I'm looking to not have my goddamned time wasted on a 45 minute forced turtle that nets me 55 honour, back when heavy turtling was popular (and before the super secret "run past them and ignore IB GY" tech was introduced)
This is one of those "you attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" things. Positive reinforcement guys, not negative. Why in gods name would the alliance queue up for getting kicked in the balls? Work hard? Find a better strat? After enough ball kicking, eventually you just say "fuck it, get 9 people and let's go roll WSG pugs", and lo, AV queue times rise.
I'd rather lose 10 times in a row at 700 honour a piece in 20 minute games than win 3 times for 1000 honour in that same period of time. But hey, that might just be me.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
This is one of those "you attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" things.
Anyone that has ever been uh camping knows what attracts the most flies.
poo-poo humor aside. What is so hard about defending your own towers and securing your own honor. they can't waltz in with two pally's and cap our relief hut anymore . so the "sportsmanlike" approach would be to change their strategy. Instead they unleash a torrent of QQ and cry "not fair! not fair!" and then ...quit! Like bitches. All the while muttering nonsense about map imbalances which is the epitome of irony. I do derive a sense of satisfaction out of playing a small part in contributing to that.
And by the way the "Join as a Group" button is available on both sides which I would assume you know having 19 characters over 15 years of /played since beta was in closed alpha. Kidding aside we don't need them back in AV. GTFO in my opinion AV is fine L2P etc. Don't get aggressive though when I call them bitches because well, they are.
Goodtimes, are you happy with trouncing the alliance once an hour? Yes/No?
If Yes, then I guess we're both happy with how our battlegroups are working.
If not, then I've very intricately detailed what might be wrong with your outlook/tactics as a faction on your Battlegroup. If they're being whiney bitches, then fine. Violate them like the bitches they are, and enjoy your 1k honour / 3 marks per 60/90 minutes (1 hour queue + 20 min or so battle).
You keep cherry picking one line from my posts, and I get the feeling you're not really paying any attention to what I have to say, so perhaps you're right and we're just destined to agree to disagree.
Also, I'm aware that "join as a group" is available to both sides, and if that's the case, go forth young man! Venture with your friends and violate the infidels! I hope you enjoy rolling pre-mades and can keep it up, 'cause I know I love nothing more than rofl-stomping a "PVP server" team from our little backwater RP realm.
/pelvicthrust (that seems to be getting a lot of play today)
Edit: which isn't to say our teams can ever cross paths, I speak in general.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
It'd be nice if they say, doubled the number of BGs. Giving us an option of a large scale one that wasn't entirely white would be cool. They have needed new BGs for like 2 years now. And no, EotS doesn't count. We don't need wacky gimmicks, just more BGs with the exact same objectives and playstyles. More variety.
The only thing worse than AV itself is people whining about it.
Forar, it would be awesome if I could push shit in like that once an hour but more like 1 hr and a 1/2 if we're lucky. regardless I'm lucky to actually get a chance to do it once a day and yes it's worth it. I don't care about Honor per hr I don't care about honor period this is not a "grind" for me it's the part of the game I enjoy. (If I did AB / EotS premades is more honor per hour anyways) I wouldn't go back to black temple if I had every shiny "purplehz" in the entire game, I can't commit enough time regularly to have a competitive arena team with a respectable rating if I want to have respectable collegiate rating. but something keeps me going back to battlegrounds.
I'm the knuckle dragger with welfare epics or whatever
Give me back the old school AV that takes 2 hours, involves epic battles at midfield, ninja strike teams and all sorts of crazy mechanics, and I'd be down with doing AV purely for the sake of doing AV.
I'm not the one that cut the zone in half and neutered anything resembling warfare from the battleground.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Give me back the old school AV that takes 2 hours, involves epic battles at midfield, ninja strike teams and all sorts of crazy mechanics, and I'd be down with doing AV purely for the sake of doing AV.
Take off your Rose Coloured goggles, there.
Well, except the goblin shredder, that was fun.
Assloads of Elite NPCs that no one was geared enough to stand up to? Hell no. The battles went no where.
Give me back the old school AV that takes 2 hours, involves epic battles at midfield, ninja strike teams and all sorts of crazy mechanics, and I'd be down with doing AV purely for the sake of doing AV.
Take off your Rose Coloured goggles, there.
Well, except the goblin shredder, that was fun.
Assloads of Elite NPCs that no one was geared enough to stand up to? Hell no. The battles went no where.
No rose coloured glasses here. Not every AV was a gentlemanly day at the beach, and no, I don't want to see 6+ hours become the norm again, but one of the things that brought me to WoW (let alone into pvp) was AV's introductory page. It sounded... epic. Vast in scope, a massive battle rading on all sides with NPCs, quests,... a destructable town that you'd raze and then kick the other faction out of so you could do quests for your side only (okay, that never made it in), mines, shredders, rich thorium (!), etc, etc.
And then slowly they took away the one item you could pick up and run with, and the mines, and the shredders, and most of the NPCs, and like half the damned map.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
2 hours is unacceptable in any shape or form, unless proportionate honor could somehow be awarded upon quitting early. That's way too long to commit to for pvp.
Give me back the old school AV that takes 2 hours, involves epic battles at midfield, ninja strike teams and all sorts of crazy mechanics, and I'd be down with doing AV purely for the sake of doing AV.
Take off your Rose Coloured goggles, there.
Well, except the goblin shredder, that was fun.
Assloads of Elite NPCs that no one was geared enough to stand up to? Hell no. The battles went no where.
No rose coloured glasses here. Not every AV was a gentlemanly day at the beach, and no, I don't want to see 6+ hours become the norm again, but one of the things that brought me to WoW (let alone into pvp) was AV's introductory page. It sounded... epic. Vast in scope, a massive battle rading on all sides with NPCs, quests,... a destructable town that you'd raze and then kick the other faction out of so you could do quests for your side only (okay, that never made it in), mines, shredders, rich thorium (!), etc, etc.
And then slowly they took away the one item you could pick up and run with, and the mines, and the shredders, and most of the NPCs, and like half the damned map.
The Rich Thorium was amusing, and the goblin shredder rocked. Also, you'd get about 15,000 reputation per game.
But the sheer number of NPCs was absurd. Players couldn't gain ground because NPC charges would literally destroy entire offensives.
Now, with the sort of gears players have now, the NPCs wouldn't be nearly as deadly, but the sheer amount of time, not to mention to queues, were absurd.
Here's how it went on CC: AV happened once a week (thursday IIRC), it lasted around 15 hours.
Now don't get me wrong, I have great memories of it. But do I want to see it come back? God no. Gives us new 80 man PvP BGs and leave AV alone.
There was one server I was told about the other day where they played a 6 day AV. The game started the day after maintenance, and was forcibly ended by the next week's maintenance. I don't know if I buy it, but there was a dude in my guild who claimed to have played in it.
Hopefully the new pvp zone being introduced in WotLK will fill the obvious need for a more 'persistent' battleground, where pvp feels more like a war and less like a game of unreal tournament.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Hopefully the new pvp zone being introduced in WotLK will fill the obvious need for a more 'persistent' battleground, where pvp feels more like a war and less like a game of unreal tournament.
Unless, like my server, 80% of the population is Alliance. In which case 'World PvP Objectives' become 'Bonus Alliance Features'.
The thought that the Alliance is basically going to have free and permanent continent wide buffs really pisses me off. Blizzard should have done something about faction balance a long, long time ago.
Rami on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
i have been sitting here reading goodtimes responses to Forar and giggling to myself because he JUST DOESN'T GET IT
Hopefully the new pvp zone being introduced in WotLK will fill the obvious need for a more 'persistent' battleground, where pvp feels more like a war and less like a game of unreal tournament.
Unless, like my server, 80% of the population is Alliance. In which case 'World PvP Objectives' become 'Bonus Alliance Features'.
The thought that the Alliance is basically going to have free and permanent continent wide buffs really pisses me off. Blizzard should have done something about faction balance a long, long time ago.
Except, you know, on the servers where the horde control the objectives all day.
i have been sitting here reading goodtimes responses to Forar and giggling to myself because he JUST DOESN'T GET IT
yay forar
enlighten me
goodtimes on
new sig underconstruction
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
he's not saying that the opposite faction should expect the usual winners of AV to just "let them get some honour".
he's saying that its better for ALL concerned (note, I say ALL) for games to last about 15-20 minutes, the winners get 600-800 honor, losers get 200-400, and queue times for both sides are almost instant, than for the winning side to go out of their way to completely deny the losers any honour at all, force a reinforcements win, and have the game last 45 minutes with a 1-2hour queue
he's not saying that the opposite faction should expect the usual winners of AV to just "let them get some honour".
he's saying that its better for ALL concerned (note, I say ALL) for games to last about 15-20 minutes, the winners get 600-800 honor, losers get 200-400, and queue times for both sides are almost instant, than for the winning side to go out of their way to completely deny the losers any honour at all, force a reinforcements win, and have the game last 45 minutes with a 1-2hour queue
yeah I got that . what you're missing is that I'm not really concerned about them playing or not. more rubbing in the fact that they quit . I realize that alot of people put alot of importance of honor per hour but AB and eots is worth more than AV anyways and much easier to manage unless you're solo-queing.
Edit~ not referring to they being anyone around here but the proverbial they
yeah I got that . what you're missing is that I'm not really concerned about them playing or not. more rubbing in the fact that they quit . I realize that alot of people put alot of importance of honor per hour but AB and eots is worth more than AV anyways and much easier to manage unless you're solo-queing.
If you play alliance, it certainly isn't worth more. You have to be winning those games awfully fast to be getting more than the 400-600 honour for AV, not including kills.
Basically, you have to be farming it with a premade.
yeah I got that . what you're missing is that I'm not really concerned about them playing or not. more rubbing in the fact that they quit . I realize that alot of people put alot of importance of honor per hour but AB and eots is worth more than AV anyways and much easier to manage unless you're solo-queing.
If you play alliance, it certainly isn't worth more. You have to be winning those games awfully fast to be getting more than the 400-600 honour for AV, not including kills.
Basically, you have to be farming it with a premade.
Which is what most Alliance seem to do on Bloodlust. I feel little remorse smashing them in AV after being utterly crushed by a dozen premades.
yeah I got that . what you're missing is that I'm not really concerned about them playing or not. more rubbing in the fact that they quit . I realize that alot of people put alot of importance of honor per hour but AB and eots is worth more than AV anyways and much easier to manage unless you're solo-queing.
If you play alliance, it certainly isn't worth more. You have to be winning those games awfully fast to be getting more than the 400-600 honour for AV, not including kills.
Basically, you have to be farming it with a premade.
Which is what most Alliance seem to do on Bloodlust. I feel little remorse smashing them in AV after being utterly crushed by a dozen premades.
Chicken, meet Egg. Egg, Chicken.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Except, you know, on the servers where the horde control the objectives all day.
2 wrongs do not make a right. And keep in mind, on a majority of servers Alliance outnumber Horde. The only niche that Horde seems to dominate population-wise is pvp servers. Be it Alliance or Horde, no one should be punished for playing the minority on a server.
The Spirit Towers in Bone Wastes, in my opinion, is along the right path towards ideal world pvp objectives. World pvp objectives that reward quality, and not quantity, of your faction's team-work is the most feasible way to balance out differences in population per server. 6 hours is a bit extreme, but let's say we put Halaa on a 2 hour timer: I think that would be great. On my server, Anvilmar, when Horde captures Halaa - we lose it within 15 minutes. Rule of thumb on Anvilmar for Horde - you show up with a crew of 10, Alliance will show up with a crew of 17. You recruit 5 more people to help? Alliance probably has 9 more players on the way too. In a war of attrition, the minority faction on a server is totally at the mercy of the dominate one.
Dark Helmet on
And my poor Death Knight that couldn't afford an icon.
World PvP objectives are always stupid. Just saying, it depends what server you are on. The massive alliance numbers are mostly on older servers, in my experience.
Its like complaining about AV. The problem has nothing to do with what faction you play, in the grand scheme of things. The problem is that it isn't fun.
so my 2v2 team does averagely week after week. afflic lock and disc/holy priest. we maintain a 1500-1600 rating. disc priests are supposed to have high survivability but my partner gets raped whenever the other team has any kind of focused dps.
the 2 of us made a 3v3 with an elemental shammy. we win 9 of our 10 battles like every week. funny what the introduction of 1 more person can do.
so my 2v2 team does averagely week after week. afflic lock and disc/holy priest. we maintain a 1500-1600 rating. disc priests are supposed to have high survivability but my partner gets raped whenever the other team has any kind of focused dps.
the 2 of us made a 3v3 with an elemental shammy. we win 9 of our 10 battles like every week. funny what the introduction of 1 more person can do.
Its gear based. Kind of like how a s1 paladin will get destroyed by a s3 rogue. In theory they have high survivability, but you need to have the appropriate gear to face your opposition.
If you have the gear, disc priests are simply unkillable without multiple people attacking them.
In an AV the other day, I hit top damage on the chart from chasing one disc priest from galv's base to balinda's . I eventually gave up since I ran out of mana and he feared me off too far.
I was in the weirdest AB fight the other day. Both teams had about 5 healers, and we all seemed to gravitate to the blacksmith. Alliance had 2 pallies, a tree, a healing priest, and a rogue versus our 2 pallies, one tree, my resto shammy, and a frost mage. We must have been "fighting" for about 5 minutes before alliance reinforcments finally showed up and cleared us out. Gogo healer fight.
Posts
Horde typically have very short queue times due to the fact that Alliance v Horde across most Battlegroups as a whole is 3:1. Alliance usually have the longer queue times simply because there are too many of them and not enough Horde to match up against.
I do believe however that there was an Alliance walk-out on AV on the Storm Strike (was it Storm Strike?) battlegroup. Alliance strategy was so terrible there they couldn't find their ass with both hands and a map - much less defeat an organized Horde raiding force. So they striked and complained about not doing AV anymore until they got attention. I'm not sure if they did...
And my poor Death Knight that couldn't afford an icon.
On Nightfall, defense is apparently a dirty word.
I'll admit I'm guilty of not defending much, but then again both of my 70s are pve specced, and thus, better attacking then defending :P I will defend on my mage though assuming I'm not the only one there. My paladin on the other hand is usually the sole reason we've capped Aid Station by the same time they've hit RH.
Limed for truth. I wish I could have said that but if I did it would come out....rude
it really depends on the battlegroup
I transferred from shadowburn to uhhh whatever cluster onyxia is on
shadowburn had over 1+ hour queue times for AV horde side and won every AV, where as on onyxia we win about half the time but have near instant queue
It sucks.
What slacker attitude. As I just said, Alliance on Vindication are back to "lol90%winz", we're doing just fine thanks, and from what I hear, Horde have instant queues and Alliance queues are like 5 minutes long.
If your battlegroups horde queues are an hour+, well I guess the alliance have found better sources of honour. What you say is true, both sides are supposed to try to win, there's no doubt about that. But there's a difference between being good sports and recognizing that there are other people playing here, rather than just someone to fuel your insatiable blood lust.
It's like those people decrying the "alliance boycotts" of AV. It's not a fucking boycott; they just got tired of earning 100 honour per hour and went into other battlegrounds in search of better honour.
And as much as we might like to think that it's all about be happy go-lucky types who play BG's for fun, when you need 180,000 honour for a set of gear, I sure as hell don't want to do it at a rate of 100 (exaggerated, but not by much) honour per hour.
Do I consider winning to be bad sportsmanship?
No, but I consider drawing out a game to a slow, painful win (win by reinforcements while making a point of specifically denying the other side any significant honour) to be unsporting.
I'll jump in a guild crew and 3/4/5 cap in various BG's, that's fine. What I won't tolerate is graveyard camping (unless done to us first), flag hiding, exploiting or being assholes about it. AV done in certain ways with certain unspoken rules can lead to $texas honour per hour for BOTH sides, win, lose or draw.
Just like griefing, camping or being a dick in general, I fail to see the appeal, fun or glory in not just winning, but winning in such a fashion that leaves the opposition beaten and utterly demoralized in what can otherwise be the most effecting manner of grinding honour available.
And after getting NINE characters to exalted with AV and over 2 years of playing similar (but not quite the same) map, yes, I suppose it is done partially for 'love of the game', and partially because "I don't want to spend 32 hours of my life grinding a fucking pvp trinket out for every one of them".
Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this, but I simply don't understand why the "rape, pillage and violate" method that may or may not lead to slow queue times is in any way superior to the "win as best you can but let the other side get a little piece of the carrot" method that may or may not lead to fast queue times.
I have no hard evidence, but anecdotally, your BG slaughters the opposition and sits on their thumbs a lot, whereas my BG seems to fight it out without battering down the opposition, and both factions have nearly 0 queue times.
I ask again, what's better? 1000 honour for one win and a 1 hour+ queue, or 600-800 honour for a 20 minute race and nearly 0 queue times? What your BG offers the Alliance is the former, but with like 100 honour.
Any possible reason why you think they might've stopped queueing? Any at all?
I really really hope that 2.4 drastically cuts AV queue times, and that the HK change makes honor worthwhile in those BGs you can't win. Like when I join 15 BGs in a day where is like 15 vs 6 because all the Horde are bailing. What's really fun is getting into EotS and it's 4 capped because you replaced somebody that bailed.
I think as someone pointed out, is that you want - basically - free honor for just showing up for your efforts. I don't know about other BG's, but I've YET to see an AV where neither side got anything. Complaining that you're not getting as much honor as you'd like to get - I dunno, probably a better way of structuring that.
The system could do with a change though.
Please read my posts on the subject.
Vindication Alliance are RAPING Vindication Horde. I'm getting everything I want.
I just don't see a need to be a douchebag about getting it, and working on ways to ensure that the opposition are utterly crushed is one way to ensure longer queue times.
Pre-TBC, I had 1-6 HOUR AV queues. I'm perfectly happy having 5-15 minute queues, thank you very much.
I'm not looking to get anything for nothing. I'm looking to not have my goddamned time wasted on a 45 minute forced turtle that nets me 55 honour, back when heavy turtling was popular (and before the super secret "run past them and ignore IB GY" tech was introduced)
This is one of those "you attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" things. Positive reinforcement guys, not negative. Why in gods name would the alliance queue up for getting kicked in the balls? Work hard? Find a better strat? After enough ball kicking, eventually you just say "fuck it, get 9 people and let's go roll WSG pugs", and lo, AV queue times rise.
I'd rather lose 10 times in a row at 700 honour a piece in 20 minute games than win 3 times for 1000 honour in that same period of time. But hey, that might just be me.
If Yes, then I guess we're both happy with how our battlegroups are working.
If not, then I've very intricately detailed what might be wrong with your outlook/tactics as a faction on your Battlegroup. If they're being whiney bitches, then fine. Violate them like the bitches they are, and enjoy your 1k honour / 3 marks per 60/90 minutes (1 hour queue + 20 min or so battle).
You keep cherry picking one line from my posts, and I get the feeling you're not really paying any attention to what I have to say, so perhaps you're right and we're just destined to agree to disagree.
Also, I'm aware that "join as a group" is available to both sides, and if that's the case, go forth young man! Venture with your friends and violate the infidels! I hope you enjoy rolling pre-mades and can keep it up, 'cause I know I love nothing more than rofl-stomping a "PVP server" team from our little backwater RP realm.
/pelvicthrust (that seems to be getting a lot of play today)
Edit: which isn't to say our teams can ever cross paths, I speak in general.
The only thing worse than AV itself is people whining about it.
I'm the knuckle dragger with welfare epics or whatever
I'm up in your GY aimshottin yer faceorz.
we're just different like that me and you.
TL/DR : yeah I'm happy with the way things are
Nearly 3 years later, however...
Give me back the old school AV that takes 2 hours, involves epic battles at midfield, ninja strike teams and all sorts of crazy mechanics, and I'd be down with doing AV purely for the sake of doing AV.
I'm not the one that cut the zone in half and neutered anything resembling warfare from the battleground.
Take off your Rose Coloured goggles, there.
Well, except the goblin shredder, that was fun.
Assloads of Elite NPCs that no one was geared enough to stand up to? Hell no. The battles went no where.
No rose coloured glasses here. Not every AV was a gentlemanly day at the beach, and no, I don't want to see 6+ hours become the norm again, but one of the things that brought me to WoW (let alone into pvp) was AV's introductory page. It sounded... epic. Vast in scope, a massive battle rading on all sides with NPCs, quests,... a destructable town that you'd raze and then kick the other faction out of so you could do quests for your side only (okay, that never made it in), mines, shredders, rich thorium (!), etc, etc.
And then slowly they took away the one item you could pick up and run with, and the mines, and the shredders, and most of the NPCs, and like half the damned map.
The Rich Thorium was amusing, and the goblin shredder rocked. Also, you'd get about 15,000 reputation per game.
But the sheer number of NPCs was absurd. Players couldn't gain ground because NPC charges would literally destroy entire offensives.
Now, with the sort of gears players have now, the NPCs wouldn't be nearly as deadly, but the sheer amount of time, not to mention to queues, were absurd.
Here's how it went on CC: AV happened once a week (thursday IIRC), it lasted around 15 hours.
Now don't get me wrong, I have great memories of it. But do I want to see it come back? God no. Gives us new 80 man PvP BGs and leave AV alone.
Hopefully the new pvp zone being introduced in WotLK will fill the obvious need for a more 'persistent' battleground, where pvp feels more like a war and less like a game of unreal tournament.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Unless, like my server, 80% of the population is Alliance. In which case 'World PvP Objectives' become 'Bonus Alliance Features'.
The thought that the Alliance is basically going to have free and permanent continent wide buffs really pisses me off. Blizzard should have done something about faction balance a long, long time ago.
yay forar
Except, you know, on the servers where the horde control the objectives all day.
enlighten me
he's saying that its better for ALL concerned (note, I say ALL) for games to last about 15-20 minutes, the winners get 600-800 honor, losers get 200-400, and queue times for both sides are almost instant, than for the winning side to go out of their way to completely deny the losers any honour at all, force a reinforcements win, and have the game last 45 minutes with a 1-2hour queue
yeah I got that . what you're missing is that I'm not really concerned about them playing or not. more rubbing in the fact that they quit . I realize that alot of people put alot of importance of honor per hour but AB and eots is worth more than AV anyways and much easier to manage unless you're solo-queing.
Edit~ not referring to they being anyone around here but the proverbial they
If you play alliance, it certainly isn't worth more. You have to be winning those games awfully fast to be getting more than the 400-600 honour for AV, not including kills.
Basically, you have to be farming it with a premade.
Which is what most Alliance seem to do on Bloodlust. I feel little remorse smashing them in AV after being utterly crushed by a dozen premades.
Chicken, meet Egg. Egg, Chicken.
2 wrongs do not make a right. And keep in mind, on a majority of servers Alliance outnumber Horde. The only niche that Horde seems to dominate population-wise is pvp servers. Be it Alliance or Horde, no one should be punished for playing the minority on a server.
The Spirit Towers in Bone Wastes, in my opinion, is along the right path towards ideal world pvp objectives. World pvp objectives that reward quality, and not quantity, of your faction's team-work is the most feasible way to balance out differences in population per server. 6 hours is a bit extreme, but let's say we put Halaa on a 2 hour timer: I think that would be great. On my server, Anvilmar, when Horde captures Halaa - we lose it within 15 minutes. Rule of thumb on Anvilmar for Horde - you show up with a crew of 10, Alliance will show up with a crew of 17. You recruit 5 more people to help? Alliance probably has 9 more players on the way too. In a war of attrition, the minority faction on a server is totally at the mercy of the dominate one.
And my poor Death Knight that couldn't afford an icon.
Its like complaining about AV. The problem has nothing to do with what faction you play, in the grand scheme of things. The problem is that it isn't fun.
the 2 of us made a 3v3 with an elemental shammy. we win 9 of our 10 battles like every week. funny what the introduction of 1 more person can do.
Its gear based. Kind of like how a s1 paladin will get destroyed by a s3 rogue. In theory they have high survivability, but you need to have the appropriate gear to face your opposition.
If you have the gear, disc priests are simply unkillable without multiple people attacking them.
In an AV the other day, I hit top damage on the chart from chasing one disc priest from galv's base to balinda's . I eventually gave up since I ran out of mana and he feared me off too far.