Death is supposed to be a part of the game. Losing all your items and being pushed back to level 1 happens whenever you leave the dungeons, whether through death or through completing a dungeon. It's not a punishment; it's a core part of the game. Tougher dungeons will have better equipment in them, so you won't be massively unprepared as you continue through the game.
I can understand the one life, no continues concept in a game if it's possible to play cautiously and stay alive until the end, but if death is also required to advance the game, that seems a little unfair.
Like I said, it's not a punishment as much as it is a game mechanic. When you die, you're not sent "back to the start." You're kicked out of the tower, and new things might be available now. Don't be afraid to die in this game, and don't be one of those guys who hits Reset every time your HP reaches 0 (like me when I play Fire Emblem).
I just found out, a little slowly, to be sure, as "hardcore" as this game may appear around the corners, you can cheat "the big reset" SUPER EASILY! The game gives you 3 save slots and never auto-saves (even on death). SOOO when you die and don't want to except it just jump to the Title Screen and then load up your last good save. I didn't treat this as a spoiler since this is just standard RPG stuff now.
besides waggle and optional classic con support, it should be mentioned that the Wii version supports 480p and 16×9 widescreen, while the PS2 version doesn't.
Not the biggest fan of roguelikes, but I'm not quick to dismiss them either. So far I'm enjoying Shiren quite a bit, I liked Azure Dreams a lot, play Nethack sometimes if I'm on an old computer and looking for ways to kill time (i suck though), and Dungeons of Doom was a lot of fun on my old mac plus.
Since I'm familiar with the concept of rogues already, and I view perma death as a good thing, will I like this game? The atmosphere seems great, so really I just hope a real time rogue plays okay. I like the turn based aspect and strategy to traditional rogues quite a bit and hope that isn't all lost with Baroque.
Not the biggest fan of roguelikes, but I'm not quick to dismiss them either. So far I'm enjoying Shiren quite a bit, I liked Azure Dreams a lot, play Nethack sometimes if I'm on an old computer and looking for ways to kill time (i suck though), and Dungeons of Doom was a lot of fun on my old mac plus.
Since I'm familiar with the concept of rogues already, and I view perma death as a good thing, will I like this game? The atmosphere seems great, so really I just hope a real time rogue plays okay. I like the turn based aspect and strategy to traditional rogues quite a bit and hope that isn't all lost with Baroque.
It is a fun take on the Rogue genre with some novel new mechanics.
My only gripe so far is that it took me a little bit to get a hang of the actiony aspects (like dealing with a camera while in the third person perspective).
I also think it is worth noting that ALTHOUGH the game does reset everything when you die...since the game NEVER Auto-Saves, and keeps 3 pretty traditional Save Slots, you are always free to simply reload your last save when you die (you can only save in between levels). So you can play honestly or just replay your last level indefinitely.
Not the biggest fan of roguelikes, but I'm not quick to dismiss them either. So far I'm enjoying Shiren quite a bit, I liked Azure Dreams a lot, play Nethack sometimes if I'm on an old computer and looking for ways to kill time (i suck though), and Dungeons of Doom was a lot of fun on my old mac plus.
Since I'm familiar with the concept of rogues already, and I view perma death as a good thing, will I like this game? The atmosphere seems great, so really I just hope a real time rogue plays okay. I like the turn based aspect and strategy to traditional rogues quite a bit and hope that isn't all lost with Baroque.
It is a fun take on the Rogue genre with some novel new mechanics.
My only gripe so far is that it took me a little bit to get a hang of the actiony aspects (like dealing with a camera while in the third person perspective).
I also think it is worth noting that ALTHOUGH the game does reset everything when you die...since the game NEVER Auto-Saves, and keeps 3 pretty traditional Save Slots, you are always free to simply reload your last save when you die (you can only save in between levels). So you can play honestly or just replay your last level indefinitely.
Awesome. Just went and picked it up on my lunch. Now I can't wait to go home and play.
This is why reviews, particularly their arbitrary number scores, are so retarded - ESPECIALLY when it comes to niche games.
The Nintendo Power reviewer has no idea what he's playing. He's judging this game by standards that it is not meant to be judged - he's essentially holding this game's genre against it by comparing it to another entirely - He's basically saying that this Orange is no good because it is not in every way an Apple.
This happens every time a shmup or 2D fighter comes out, and yes, every time a Roguelike comes out. Too many reviewers have their heads in these holes and have no idea what grounds they're supposed to be judging by.
And part of the problem is the fact that most reviewers think that it's their job to review a game from the perspective of "the average gamer" instead of by a "gamer who likes this genre." Or gameplay style. Which ultimately results in only larger, more accepted/mainstream genres getting better review scores on average while niche genres get panned simply because of what they are meant to be.
Now, not all reviewers do this, but it is a guarantee that at least some, like Nintendo Power have done here, will not know what they're doing and judge an Orange by Apple standards.
Okay, as a reviewer I have to pipe up a bit. The only way to review a game is its ability to connect to an AUDIENCE. That isn't to say that you are always the intended audience. I can review a kids' game with the idea on weather or not it would be fun for a 6 or 7 year old, of course most kids' games are only fun if your eyes have been ripped out and you were left paralyzed except for two fingers. And even then the Morphine is the only thing making it worth playing. I digress, Nintendo Power wants to review for their audience, which is why their scores are stupid. Considering that no one, not even NP, or hell Nintendo themselves, can figure out what the hell the central audience is on the Wii and DS, that's goddamn retarded. The Wii and DS are built for Niche titles. Like the PS2 just put it out and if it reaches 10% of the overall units sold it'll be enough to cover development on these smaller games. Wii games are hard to review because they can be so vastly different, but I think expecting everything on the system to be Wii Sports or even Galaxy, or at least as accessiable is a huge mistake.
When you have a game in a certain genre, it should be judged by that genre. It is unfair to take a game, which may very well exceed in what it does and what is good about its genre, and mark off because it doesn't conform to an entirely different genre.
Regardless of "audience," it is unfair to mark off of a 2D fighter for 'not being a 3D fighter,' or to mark off a puzzle game for 'not having a world to explore,' or to mark off a shmup for being 'archaic,' or indeed, to mark off a Roguelike because it isn't like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden or God of War.
Like I said, not every reviewer does this. But enough reviewers do it often enough to obscure the point and value of a game. This is compounded by the fact that they often slap some stupid review 'score' onto it - meaning that not only will we have people who don't read the review, let alone play the game, dismiss it because "it got a 30% olol," but it gets averaged in with metascores on MetaCritic and Gamerankings, which dilute the reviews that are by reviewers that actually know what the hell they're playing.
While I generally agree with your points regarding reviewers, slash, I think there's a point where a game crosses a line.
Atlus generally does a good job of marketing their niche games toward those niches, but from what I've seen of Baroque so far they're selling it as some sort of action game. You tell me it's a roguelike and I wont complain that I've only got 1 attack and I lose everything on death, you show me a third person title with big swords and at least one combo, and you've moved into action game territory. Presentation counts for a lot; probably a big part of why I love 2d KOF games and find the 3d ones unplayable. I'll admit that I dismissed Baroque out of hand (you can look back a few pages in this thread and see), but that's because what I saw was a very poorly done action game. There was no indication at all that this was any sort of roguelike -- at the very most it was a very slow action rpg.
If everything in the game stayed the same, but the camera was moved to a top-down or 3/4 isometric view that might have been the difference alone.
Besides that, my PS2 is out of commission right now, so I won't even get a chance to try this game any time soon. I'm still reserving total judgement, but I haven't liked what I've seen so far.
Buy the APR 2008 issue of Nintendo Power and go to page 90 for the backup.
I subscribe.
It's a retarded review. Slash is right on with his complaint. The reviewer just has no idea what the fuck he's playing and keeps trying to describe Baroque as if it were a hack 'n slash like Dark Alliance.
Meanwhile, my copy is taking its sweet time. Amazon Canada didn't even get enough in to fill their preorders
My curiosity outweighed my caution brought on from the NP review, resulting in the purchase of this game today. I've been interested in it since the screens came out for it however long ago, and I've only recently started getting into roguelikes. I managed to get in maybe an hour of play this evening, and was pleasantly surprised to see that this wasn't the piece of shit it was made out to be!
I didn't have my classic controller handy, so I used the remote/nunchuck, and it wasn't as bad as I had anticipated, but I do think classic will be an improvement. The game isn't necessarily stunning from a visual standpoint, especially the protagonist who resembles some abomination culled from an angsty 14 year old's notebook, but the enemy design is great and the outworld inhabitants are all so fucking odd. My hour of combat consisted largely of beating giant catfish with a "Lucky Sword" in order to harvest and eat their hearts. Who says games can't be art?
As someone earlier mentioned, it is possible to just reload from your last save if you die, so if the permadeath aspect of a roguelike bugs you, then it is always possible to just reload and give it another go with your current level and items.
After only playing a small bit, I'm wanting to go deeper and find out what the fuck is going on in this game. I'm glad my curiosity won out, as it's rare for a game these days to elicit any curiosity at all, but this one is really unique so far, and judging from screenshots will only get more bizarre as it goes along.
As a side note, this one may be in even more limited supply than most Atlus titles, as both EBs in town received a whopping 1 copy.
As a side note, this one may be in even more limited supply than most Atlus titles, as both EBs in town received a whopping 1 copy.
Well then, I am going to order it now. Being that it's an Atlus game in (what may be even more so than usual) limited supply the worst that can happen is that I spend the $30 something bucks now and resell it for at least the same price later on this year.
I'll report back in on what I think (if anyone cares) in two weeks when the game finally shows up as it's being shipped free media ultra slow post office mail.
The thing about reviews is that they are supposed to cut through marketing bullshit.
That's what forums and Zero Punctuation are for. Half the time, reviews ARE marketing bullshit, e.g. Gerstmann-Gate and pretty much anything in Play magazine.
As a side note, this one may be in even more limited supply than most Atlus titles, as both EBs in town received a whopping 1 copy.
If anyone can use the information - up here in Toronto, Gamecentre Yonge & Bloor had several copies in when I checked yesterday night. I'm heading back today to grab one, since I just cancelled the Amazon preorder that netted me precisely nothing.
If anyone can use the information - up here in Toronto, Gamecentre Yonge & Bloor had several copies in when I checked yesterday night. I'm heading back today to grab one, since I just cancelled the Amazon preorder that netted me precisely nothing.
I guess that'll be where I'll be going if nothing turns up at the more local Gameshack.
Joule on
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Dr Mario KartGames DealerAustin, TXRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
Some Atlus LTDs as of Dec '07 (NPD):
Disgaea - 135k
Etrian Odessey (DS) - 31k
Growlanser: Heritage of War - 5,708
Monster Kingdom Jewel Summoner - 9k
Odin Sphere - 101k
Ontamarama (DS) - 3k
Riviera: The Promise Land - 13k
Rule of Rose - 32k
Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner - 33k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga - 50k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga 2 - 39k
Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne - 54k
Shin Megami Tensei Persona 3 - 71k
Shining Force (GBA) - 47k
Tactics Ogre (GBA) - 101k
Trauma Center: Second Opinion (Wii) - 216k
Trauma Center: Under The Knife (DS) - 219k
Yggdra Union - 12k
...and I'd be willing to bet that all but two or three of them turned a profit. Interesting business model. I'd be very interested to read an in-depth interview with the head of a small niche game publisher like Atlus, they're very good at what they do and what they do is pretty cool.
Disgaea - 135k
Etrian Odessey (DS) - 31k
Growlanser: Heritage of War - 5,708
Monster Kingdom Jewel Summoner - 9k
Odin Sphere - 101k
Ontamarama (DS) - 3k
Riviera: The Promise Land - 13k
Rule of Rose - 32k
Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner - 33k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga - 50k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga 2 - 39k
Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne - 54k
Shin Megami Tensei Persona 3 - 71k
Shining Force (GBA) - 47k
Tactics Ogre (GBA) - 101k
Trauma Center: Second Opinion (Wii) - 216k
Trauma Center: Under The Knife (DS) - 219k
Yggdra Union - 12k
To go off topic for a sec. There's this little mom and pop game shop that I go to on occasion, and they've had a new copy of Odin's Sphere sitting on the shelf for months. I'm curious, is it a rare one? Worth picking up?
Disgaea - 135k
Etrian Odessey (DS) - 31k
Growlanser: Heritage of War - 5,708
Monster Kingdom Jewel Summoner - 9k
Odin Sphere - 101k
Ontamarama (DS) - 3k
Riviera: The Promise Land - 13k
Rule of Rose - 32k
Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner - 33k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga - 50k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga 2 - 39k
Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne - 54k
Shin Megami Tensei Persona 3 - 71k
Shining Force (GBA) - 47k
Tactics Ogre (GBA) - 101k
Trauma Center: Second Opinion (Wii) - 216k
Trauma Center: Under The Knife (DS) - 219k
Yggdra Union - 12k
To go off topic for a sec. There's this little mom and pop game shop that I go to on occasion, and they've had a new copy of Odin's Sphere sitting on the shelf for months. I'm curious, is it a rare one? Worth picking up?
YES
I missed Odin Sphere when it came out and have kicked myself ever since (got to play it at a friend's place though, thank God)
And holy shit, only 5k for Growlanser??? Dammmmmmmn these are some depressingly small numbers. There is no justice in the world when I see these numbers and meanwhile 50 cent's game sell a million.
Disgaea - 135k
Etrian Odessey (DS) - 31k
Growlanser: Heritage of War - 5,708
Monster Kingdom Jewel Summoner - 9k
Odin Sphere - 101k
Ontamarama (DS) - 3k
Riviera: The Promise Land - 13k
Rule of Rose - 32k
Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner - 33k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga - 50k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga 2 - 39k
Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne - 54k
Shin Megami Tensei Persona 3 - 71k
Shining Force (GBA) - 47k
Tactics Ogre (GBA) - 101k
Trauma Center: Second Opinion (Wii) - 216k
Trauma Center: Under The Knife (DS) - 219k
Yggdra Union - 12k
Just because these numbers are low, that doesn't mean these games necessarily tanked. In breaking publishing deals, it's almost certain that Atlus expects sub-100k sales and budgets accordingly.
It certainly explains the print runs they do; publish small numbers of copies initially, and then only publish more if there is significant reorders.
The low numbers for the portable systems are especially significant because you hardly have to sell anything to break even on a GBA or DS game. I wouldn't be surprised if Tactics Ogre, Shining Force, and even perhaps Etrian Odysee turned a profit (Etrian Odysee is getting a sequel after all).
And certainly I wouldn't expect a publisher to continue publishing consecutive games in a franchise when the franchise consistently sells less than 100k unless the publisher was budgeting properly for such a situation (see SMT franchise).
Overlooking most of Atlus' NPD data, I'd be very surprised to hear that they aimed 90% of their sales projections on more than 50k sales for most of their games, particularly the portable ones and the PS2 ones. These are the cheapest to develop and the cheapest to publish and the best bang/buck in terms of market share.
The low numbers for the portable systems are especially significant because you hardly have to sell anything to break even on a GBA or DS game. I wouldn't be surprised if Tactics Ogre, Shining Force, and even perhaps Etrian Odysee turned a profit (Etrian Odysee is getting a sequel after all).
I know from personal experience that Tactics Ogre for the GBA was a bitch to find and when I did find it, it was going for $40 used.
And certainly I wouldn't expect a publisher to continue publishing consecutive games in a franchise when the franchise consistently sells less than 100k unless the publisher was budgeting properly for such a situation (see SMT franchise).
I cannot begin to imagine what they would be able to do with a proper multi-million budget.
Then again, we have to remember to include Japan numbers. The SMT series is more popular there than here.
EDIT: As in, it may offset the cost... Yeah, I might be getting confused here.
Strifer on
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Dr Mario KartGames DealerAustin, TXRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
I wasnt suggesting that Baroque was going to tank on the basis of Atlus' previous publishing record. I'm well aware that most of those on the list are successes the way their business model is.
I mean I think they are going to overprint it, like they did with Growlanser. That is to say, demand will be even lower than their already carefully thought out expectations. The roguelike genre is so super niche.
Though they did print Izuna, so maybe their estimate will be more accurate than I think. Izuna is starting to become rare now, with new copies exceeding MSRP by approaching 50% now, and used copies approaching the original MSRP.
And certainly I wouldn't expect a publisher to continue publishing consecutive games in a franchise when the franchise consistently sells less than 100k unless the publisher was budgeting properly for such a situation (see SMT franchise).
I cannot begin to imagine what they would be able to do with a proper multi-million budget.
Then again, we have to remember to include Japan numbers. The SMT series is more popular there than here.
EDIT: As in, it may offset the cost... Yeah, I might be getting confused here.
Publish about 10 really kick-ass games that are unique and fun as hell but flawed in at least one or two major ways, selling 40-50k copies of each and making a nice little profit.
I see this sentiment kind of often, and I don't get it. Atlus isn't built to produce a big budget game, and doing so is completely outside their business model - it'd be like expecting MS to release Windows as an open source OS or having some indy movie studio produce a mega-budget summer blockbuster action movie. It's just not compatible with their basic model.
I've only had a couple hours to play so far, but I can say I am most definitely intrigued by the atmosphere and story progression in this game.
I'm not very good with roguelikes, haven't read the instructions, and am just playing trial and error style for now so I haven't made it too far (I ate a boom bone while experimenting and exploded my first time in the tower at 600 cubits, lol). I didn't load my save just because I want to experience death as much as I can tolerate as this is all a learning experience.
There are some definite drawbacks to the game. The graphics looked like absolute shit on my 24" LCD 1920x1200 monitor (component). I think this is mostly due to the grain filter they use. I hooked it up to my 4:3 480P CRT tv (component) and it looks much, much better. The camera does kinda suck. I really wish there was a top down view, or items were marked on the mini map, as I keep running right past them in really big rooms! The controls aren't the greatest either as rogues require extreme precision so turn based systems are perfect, but the game is overall pretty slow so I image once I'm more used the controls I'll be able to throw my items at enemies accurately. Right now however, throws are unpredictable and I wish could take more time aiming. I'm using the classic controller.
The music, voice acting, and audio is really good. Fuck the people saying the music sucks. They just hate change. I haven't heard the original Baroque music so I don't have anything to compare the music to, but I haven't heard a song I don't like yet. The music you hear when meeting NPC's throughout the dungeon is especially notable. The voice acting is kinda corny sometimes, but sometimes corny is charming so all is forgiven (the trainer's repeated use of 'god damnit' comes to mind). The erie sound effects like the pumping heart of the protagonist add to the mood.
The combat is a lot of fun. The rumors are true, you only really have one combo that I've seen, and two attacks. If you are expecting an extremely in depth combat/combo system you will be disappointed. You have a quick attack, that does short precise hits directly in front of you. You can charge this attack. You also have a slower sweeping attack that attacks enemies to the front and to the sides. Good for when you are surrounded. The strategy in combat comes from all the different items, and item combinations. I cleared a whole floor by summoning all the monsters on the floor to one room, and then using a lighting spell that wiped em all out in one blow. Awesome.
I've only made it 700 cubits so far (where my current save is) and I can't wait to get home from work to start exploring the dungeon and resulting death a little more. From what I've gathered by reading about this game all over the webs, you need to unlock floors of the tower by accomplishing certain things in the tower and town, and this mostly consists of throwing the right item at the right time at the right person. BTW Lord Gek, you're everywhere this game is found right now on English sites haha. Your posts and comments have been extremely informative as I was researching this game. Thanks for the info!
Personally I think the RPGfan review found here describes the game well. If you have any interest in roguelikes at all, I suggest giving this one a shot as the game doesn't suck if you drop any expectations before playing. I'd buy it before it becomes impossible to find.
The music, voice acting, and audio is really good. Fuck the people saying the music sucks. They just hate change. I haven't heard the original Baroque music so I don't have anything to compare the music to, but I haven't heard a song I don't like yet. The music you hear when meeting NPC's throughout the dungeon is especially notable. The voice acting is kinda corny sometimes, but sometimes corny is charming so all is forgiven (the trainer's repeated use of 'god damnit' comes to mind). The erie sound effects like the pumping heart of the protagonist add to the mood.
Generally speaking, it's not that the music sucks but that the original soundtrack was extremely good. I haven't picked up the game yet, I think I'll hold out till Arcana Hearts comes out so I can snag both at the same time.
I wasnt suggesting that Baroque was going to tank on the basis of Atlus' previous publishing record. I'm well aware that most of those on the list are successes the way their business model is.
I mean I think they are going to overprint it, like they did with Growlanser. That is to say, demand will be even lower than their already carefully thought out expectations. The roguelike genre is so super niche.
Though they did print Izuna, so maybe their estimate will be more accurate than I think. Izuna is starting to become rare now, with new copies exceeding MSRP by approaching 50% now, and used copies approaching the original MSRP.
I know you're fully aware of Atlus's publishing records and business practices. I just wanted some clarification on the "tanking" sentiment on the last page. And now I know! :^:
And also to clarify for anyone who may be unfamiliar with how Atlus handles publishing.
Shit I'm going to end up irresponsibly dropping like $200 on games when I get paid next month. This has been in my 'save for later' amazon cart for like a month, along with oopoona or however the fuck you spell it.
Is there a point to dying in this game or should we all just load up our saves when we kick it? I don't mind dying and doing stuff over and over if there is some point to it but if it's only for repetition then I might just do the save trick.
Posts
Yet, I feel an extremely strong draw towards this game. I have a very hard time quantifying it, but I want it.
Boo.
But I will play it anyway.
I just found out, a little slowly, to be sure, as "hardcore" as this game may appear around the corners, you can cheat "the big reset" SUPER EASILY! The game gives you 3 save slots and never auto-saves (even on death). SOOO when you die and don't want to except it just jump to the Title Screen and then load up your last good save. I didn't treat this as a spoiler since this is just standard RPG stuff now.
Well, that makes my decision easier.
Not the biggest fan of roguelikes, but I'm not quick to dismiss them either. So far I'm enjoying Shiren quite a bit, I liked Azure Dreams a lot, play Nethack sometimes if I'm on an old computer and looking for ways to kill time (i suck though), and Dungeons of Doom was a lot of fun on my old mac plus.
Since I'm familiar with the concept of rogues already, and I view perma death as a good thing, will I like this game? The atmosphere seems great, so really I just hope a real time rogue plays okay. I like the turn based aspect and strategy to traditional rogues quite a bit and hope that isn't all lost with Baroque.
mkds: 128-909-369-415
tetris: 607-254-108-141
metroid: 1460-9641-6245
It is a fun take on the Rogue genre with some novel new mechanics.
My only gripe so far is that it took me a little bit to get a hang of the actiony aspects (like dealing with a camera while in the third person perspective).
I also think it is worth noting that ALTHOUGH the game does reset everything when you die...since the game NEVER Auto-Saves, and keeps 3 pretty traditional Save Slots, you are always free to simply reload your last save when you die (you can only save in between levels). So you can play honestly or just replay your last level indefinitely.
Awesome. Just went and picked it up on my lunch. Now I can't wait to go home and play.
mkds: 128-909-369-415
tetris: 607-254-108-141
metroid: 1460-9641-6245
When you have a game in a certain genre, it should be judged by that genre. It is unfair to take a game, which may very well exceed in what it does and what is good about its genre, and mark off because it doesn't conform to an entirely different genre.
Regardless of "audience," it is unfair to mark off of a 2D fighter for 'not being a 3D fighter,' or to mark off a puzzle game for 'not having a world to explore,' or to mark off a shmup for being 'archaic,' or indeed, to mark off a Roguelike because it isn't like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden or God of War.
Like I said, not every reviewer does this. But enough reviewers do it often enough to obscure the point and value of a game. This is compounded by the fact that they often slap some stupid review 'score' onto it - meaning that not only will we have people who don't read the review, let alone play the game, dismiss it because "it got a 30% olol," but it gets averaged in with metascores on MetaCritic and Gamerankings, which dilute the reviews that are by reviewers that actually know what the hell they're playing.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
Atlus generally does a good job of marketing their niche games toward those niches, but from what I've seen of Baroque so far they're selling it as some sort of action game. You tell me it's a roguelike and I wont complain that I've only got 1 attack and I lose everything on death, you show me a third person title with big swords and at least one combo, and you've moved into action game territory. Presentation counts for a lot; probably a big part of why I love 2d KOF games and find the 3d ones unplayable. I'll admit that I dismissed Baroque out of hand (you can look back a few pages in this thread and see), but that's because what I saw was a very poorly done action game. There was no indication at all that this was any sort of roguelike -- at the very most it was a very slow action rpg.
If everything in the game stayed the same, but the camera was moved to a top-down or 3/4 isometric view that might have been the difference alone.
Besides that, my PS2 is out of commission right now, so I won't even get a chance to try this game any time soon. I'm still reserving total judgement, but I haven't liked what I've seen so far.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
It's a retarded review. Slash is right on with his complaint. The reviewer just has no idea what the fuck he's playing and keeps trying to describe Baroque as if it were a hack 'n slash like Dark Alliance.
Meanwhile, my copy is taking its sweet time. Amazon Canada didn't even get enough in to fill their preorders
I didn't have my classic controller handy, so I used the remote/nunchuck, and it wasn't as bad as I had anticipated, but I do think classic will be an improvement. The game isn't necessarily stunning from a visual standpoint, especially the protagonist who resembles some abomination culled from an angsty 14 year old's notebook, but the enemy design is great and the outworld inhabitants are all so fucking odd. My hour of combat consisted largely of beating giant catfish with a "Lucky Sword" in order to harvest and eat their hearts. Who says games can't be art?
As someone earlier mentioned, it is possible to just reload from your last save if you die, so if the permadeath aspect of a roguelike bugs you, then it is always possible to just reload and give it another go with your current level and items.
After only playing a small bit, I'm wanting to go deeper and find out what the fuck is going on in this game. I'm glad my curiosity won out, as it's rare for a game these days to elicit any curiosity at all, but this one is really unique so far, and judging from screenshots will only get more bizarre as it goes along.
As a side note, this one may be in even more limited supply than most Atlus titles, as both EBs in town received a whopping 1 copy.
my flickr
Well then, I am going to order it now. Being that it's an Atlus game in (what may be even more so than usual) limited supply the worst that can happen is that I spend the $30 something bucks now and resell it for at least the same price later on this year.
I'll report back in on what I think (if anyone cares) in two weeks when the game finally shows up as it's being shipped free media ultra slow post office mail.
I KISS YOU!
http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/baroque-ps2/index.html
If anyone can use the information - up here in Toronto, Gamecentre Yonge & Bloor had several copies in when I checked yesterday night. I'm heading back today to grab one, since I just cancelled the Amazon preorder that netted me precisely nothing.
That's the easiest savescumming method I've ever seen in a Rogulike. For SHAME, Atlus.
They could have printed up only 17 copies. Like with the original Trauma Center.
And every other fucking Atlus game.
I guess that'll be where I'll be going if nothing turns up at the more local Gameshack.
Disgaea - 135k
Etrian Odessey (DS) - 31k
Growlanser: Heritage of War - 5,708
Monster Kingdom Jewel Summoner - 9k
Odin Sphere - 101k
Ontamarama (DS) - 3k
Riviera: The Promise Land - 13k
Rule of Rose - 32k
Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner - 33k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga - 50k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga 2 - 39k
Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne - 54k
Shin Megami Tensei Persona 3 - 71k
Shining Force (GBA) - 47k
Tactics Ogre (GBA) - 101k
Trauma Center: Second Opinion (Wii) - 216k
Trauma Center: Under The Knife (DS) - 219k
Yggdra Union - 12k
To go off topic for a sec. There's this little mom and pop game shop that I go to on occasion, and they've had a new copy of Odin's Sphere sitting on the shelf for months. I'm curious, is it a rare one? Worth picking up?
YES
I missed Odin Sphere when it came out and have kicked myself ever since (got to play it at a friend's place though, thank God)
And holy shit, only 5k for Growlanser??? Dammmmmmmn these are some depressingly small numbers. There is no justice in the world when I see these numbers and meanwhile 50 cent's game sell a million.
Edit: So I just checked again and a few used copies have popped up on Amazon.ca. This is good.
Just because these numbers are low, that doesn't mean these games necessarily tanked. In breaking publishing deals, it's almost certain that Atlus expects sub-100k sales and budgets accordingly.
It certainly explains the print runs they do; publish small numbers of copies initially, and then only publish more if there is significant reorders.
The low numbers for the portable systems are especially significant because you hardly have to sell anything to break even on a GBA or DS game. I wouldn't be surprised if Tactics Ogre, Shining Force, and even perhaps Etrian Odysee turned a profit (Etrian Odysee is getting a sequel after all).
And certainly I wouldn't expect a publisher to continue publishing consecutive games in a franchise when the franchise consistently sells less than 100k unless the publisher was budgeting properly for such a situation (see SMT franchise).
Overlooking most of Atlus' NPD data, I'd be very surprised to hear that they aimed 90% of their sales projections on more than 50k sales for most of their games, particularly the portable ones and the PS2 ones. These are the cheapest to develop and the cheapest to publish and the best bang/buck in terms of market share.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
I know from personal experience that Tactics Ogre for the GBA was a bitch to find and when I did find it, it was going for $40 used.
I cannot begin to imagine what they would be able to do with a proper multi-million budget.
Then again, we have to remember to include Japan numbers. The SMT series is more popular there than here.
EDIT: As in, it may offset the cost... Yeah, I might be getting confused here.
I mean I think they are going to overprint it, like they did with Growlanser. That is to say, demand will be even lower than their already carefully thought out expectations. The roguelike genre is so super niche.
Though they did print Izuna, so maybe their estimate will be more accurate than I think. Izuna is starting to become rare now, with new copies exceeding MSRP by approaching 50% now, and used copies approaching the original MSRP.
I see this sentiment kind of often, and I don't get it. Atlus isn't built to produce a big budget game, and doing so is completely outside their business model - it'd be like expecting MS to release Windows as an open source OS or having some indy movie studio produce a mega-budget summer blockbuster action movie. It's just not compatible with their basic model.
I'm not very good with roguelikes, haven't read the instructions, and am just playing trial and error style for now so I haven't made it too far (I ate a boom bone while experimenting and exploded my first time in the tower at 600 cubits, lol). I didn't load my save just because I want to experience death as much as I can tolerate as this is all a learning experience.
There are some definite drawbacks to the game. The graphics looked like absolute shit on my 24" LCD 1920x1200 monitor (component). I think this is mostly due to the grain filter they use. I hooked it up to my 4:3 480P CRT tv (component) and it looks much, much better. The camera does kinda suck. I really wish there was a top down view, or items were marked on the mini map, as I keep running right past them in really big rooms! The controls aren't the greatest either as rogues require extreme precision so turn based systems are perfect, but the game is overall pretty slow so I image once I'm more used the controls I'll be able to throw my items at enemies accurately. Right now however, throws are unpredictable and I wish could take more time aiming. I'm using the classic controller.
The music, voice acting, and audio is really good. Fuck the people saying the music sucks. They just hate change. I haven't heard the original Baroque music so I don't have anything to compare the music to, but I haven't heard a song I don't like yet. The music you hear when meeting NPC's throughout the dungeon is especially notable. The voice acting is kinda corny sometimes, but sometimes corny is charming so all is forgiven (the trainer's repeated use of 'god damnit' comes to mind). The erie sound effects like the pumping heart of the protagonist add to the mood.
The combat is a lot of fun. The rumors are true, you only really have one combo that I've seen, and two attacks. If you are expecting an extremely in depth combat/combo system you will be disappointed. You have a quick attack, that does short precise hits directly in front of you. You can charge this attack. You also have a slower sweeping attack that attacks enemies to the front and to the sides. Good for when you are surrounded. The strategy in combat comes from all the different items, and item combinations. I cleared a whole floor by summoning all the monsters on the floor to one room, and then using a lighting spell that wiped em all out in one blow. Awesome.
I've only made it 700 cubits so far (where my current save is) and I can't wait to get home from work to start exploring the dungeon and resulting death a little more. From what I've gathered by reading about this game all over the webs, you need to unlock floors of the tower by accomplishing certain things in the tower and town, and this mostly consists of throwing the right item at the right time at the right person. BTW Lord Gek, you're everywhere this game is found right now on English sites haha. Your posts and comments have been extremely informative as I was researching this game. Thanks for the info!
Personally I think the RPGfan review found here describes the game well. If you have any interest in roguelikes at all, I suggest giving this one a shot as the game doesn't suck if you drop any expectations before playing. I'd buy it before it becomes impossible to find.
mkds: 128-909-369-415
tetris: 607-254-108-141
metroid: 1460-9641-6245
Generally speaking, it's not that the music sucks but that the original soundtrack was extremely good. I haven't picked up the game yet, I think I'll hold out till Arcana Hearts comes out so I can snag both at the same time.
I know you're fully aware of Atlus's publishing records and business practices. I just wanted some clarification on the "tanking" sentiment on the last page. And now I know! :^:
And also to clarify for anyone who may be unfamiliar with how Atlus handles publishing.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
I KISS YOU!