Seriously, it's a completely ridiculous, pointless mechanic. While we're at it, take pet leveling the fuck out as well. Pets should level as their masters do, just like Warlocks' minions.
Halfmex on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Seriously, it's a completely ridiculous, pointless mechanic. While we're at it, take pet leveling the fuck out as well. Pets should level as their masters do, just like Warlocks' minions.
But that would be way overpowered! I mean, if you took out pet happiness and pet leveling then Hunters could...
If you can have only a max of 3 pets, what are some other ones that you guys suggest picking up? Is Dash that good that I should make sure every pet I get has it? ie: What are the best pets for Instancing/Raiding and PvP?
Your cat is fine.
Yes, dash is very good. try and stick to pets with dash , charge, or dive for leveling.
Your dmg pets like cat/ravager are great for instancing , windserpent is great when your crit is unnaturally high because you can macro their lightning breath into your steady / auto macro and your Go for the throat talent hardly lets you get rid of focus before you gain it right back. More of a raiding pet but you will break even dps wise in kara gear with it vs a ravager.
PvP in BG's your DPS pet is king here with my ravager beating out MY OWL for the micro-second increase in pushback against casters healers.
PVP arena is all about the scorpion. their scorpid poison stacking masks your viper sting to make it difficult to cleanse off . it can be cleansed off but usually at a cost of global cooldowns and a net mana cost of nearly the amount it would have drained for.
I personally have an Owl that I use for farming primals that I have the max rank resistances trained. Reason why is I could pick up a lvl 70 owl right out of skettis and i can round up 3-4 elementals and his screech (aoe abilty which cause decreased enemy AP and adds pet threat) will hold aggro through a mend pet on all the mobs .
TLDR: Ghost saber is an awesome pet and you will top meters and rape faces in Bg's and never have to worry about another pet till you've capped your stats and wanna squeeze a lil more out in whatever game you're into.
with my ravager beating out a cat for the micro-second increase in pushback against casters healers.
Dhalphir on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
Yeah, I read that from last page just now. That's the first I've ever heard about that. I asked in guild chat and they've never heard of Ravagers causing extra pushback either. I've checked Elitist Jerks and the official forums, and there's no mention of extra pushback at either place. So I'm pretty sure goodtimes pulled that out of one his less wholesome orifices.
Yeah, I read that from last page just now. That's the first I've ever heard about that. I asked in guild chat and they've never heard of Ravagers causing extra pushback either. I've checked Elitist Jerks and the official forums, and there's no mention of extra pushback at either place. So I'm pretty sure goodtimes pulled that out of one his less wholesome orifices.
Holy shit make one typo mistake and you cannot stop the FINNISH inquisiton: swap cat for owl man and lighten up. Simple typo hope I didnt break your game or anything
goodtimes on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited June 2008
They're being civil Goodtimes, don't bitch.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Thanks for the info, right now i'm happy with my Cat, but I may switch to the black raptor in Outland, or maybe even a ravager if I can somehow stomach their ugly appearance.
Bow speed, what is the most highly sought after? Do you want a fast bow, or slow as possible?
Hmmm, what else... Oh, only other question I can think of at the moment, do you Hunters usually go ALL the way up into the BM tree to 41 points before switching over to Marksman, or do you switch over after getting 5 points in Frenzy?
Bow speed, what is the most highly sought after? Do you want a fast bow, or slow as possible?
Depends on your spec. SV and MM hunters tend to stick around 3.0 speed bows. BM hunters tend to go 2.80-2.90 with 3:2 shot rotations, or 2.70-2.80 with haste effects if they're trying to get down to a tight 1:1 rotation.
Hmmm, what else... Oh, only other question I can think of at the moment, do you Hunters usually go ALL the way up into the BM tree to 41 points before switching over to Marksman, or do you switch over after getting 5 points in Frenzy?
I went 41 BM before switching over. It doesn't really matter in the end, but I liked having TBW as early as possible. Most BM hunters only end up going 4/5 Frenzy, at any rate, because the uptime is near 100% at that point anyway.
Interesting, this whole shot rotation / 1:1 thing is very confusing, where is the best place to read up on it? I've been browsing random hunter threads and forum stickies but really haven't heard any clarification on it.
Also, chain trapping. Is it basically impossible to do unless you lay a trap well before a pull is made? What happens if you get a group that is pulling really quick and you don't have enough time to lay a trap a good 10 to 20 seconds before-hand?
Take note: there is a difference between a rotation and macro. A macro is just a means to an end, and they don't all have the same results for all people depending on latency, etc.
As for trapping, if you're not spec'd into the survival talents, no, there's not a way to "chain trap". You've got the right idea with laying the first early. Put your second trap away from the other so you gain time from the mob running over. Hit the mob with a concussive shot, kite them a little, etc. when you need to. In most cases, 2 or 3 traps is really all that's manageable without problems, and it's also all that should be needed.
Also, chain trapping. Is it basically impossible to do unless you lay a trap well before a pull is made? What happens if you get a group that is pulling really quick and you don't have enough time to lay a trap a good 10 to 20 seconds before-hand?
What is the longest trap chain you can manage?
Assuming you're BM.
Trap cooldown is 30 seconds. We'll look at two scenarios:
Scenario 1 - You have prep time.
In this case, your mob is trapped sometime between 30 and 59 seconds after you placed the trap. This enables you to place your second trap immediately. Timeline will look something like.
0:0 (set trap) - 0:30 (mob trapped, backup placed) - 0:50 (mob breaks, walks into second trap) - 1:00 (third trap placed) - 1:10 (mob walks into third trap) - 1:20 (mob breaks third trap just as trap cooldown refreshes, hopefully enabling you to retrap).
Scenario 2 - You have no prep time.
Here we'll assume the worst case that you don't place trap 1 until the mob is on top of you. In this case, it goes something like
0:00 (trap placed) - 0:20 (start kiting) - 0:30 (retrap) - 0:50 (continue kiting) - 1:00 (retrap) - etc etc.
In either case, a trap resist or early break can $@#% up your universe if you're not ready for it. Best case scenario (1) you can reliably keep a mob trapped for about a minute/minute twenty. Worst case, you better get good at kiting
Interesting, this whole shot rotation / 1:1 thing is very confusing, where is the best place to read up on it? I've been browsing random hunter threads and forum stickies but really haven't heard any clarification on it.
1:1 is a Steady -> Auto rotation
3:2 is a Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Auto rotation
There are also other rotational variants (i.e., MM, SV, and Arcane Shot weaving) but those are the primary 2 for BM spec.
The idea behind rotation selection is to have as little downtime during an auto-shot as possible (by means of a GCD or Steady shot cast). It is also important as not to lip your auto-shots as to interrupt their rhythm. For 3:2 rotations, the auto-pushback time needs to out-weigh the 'dead time' of auto shots.
It's hard to explain without a picture (and I don't have one on hand) but the general rule is 2.9 base speed and slower is 3:2 or 1:1 with instant weave. 2.8 and faster is 1:1.
Theres a lot of other factors in relation to rotation, but those are the basics. The other factors mostly have to do with mana consumption rate, target health, and mobility.
Jesus christ that is confusing. Alright, well once I get those abilities later on, i'll have to revisit all of this.
Hunter DPS is not remotely complicated. Get the right macro for your situation -- and really, there're only two "situations," namely where you have and don't have around 70 Haste Rating -- and it pretty much comes down to mashing your macro.
Jesus christ that is confusing. Alright, well once I get those abilities later on, i'll have to revisit all of this.
Hunter DPS is not remotely complicated. Get the right macro for your situation -- and really, there're only two "situations," namely where you have and don't have around 70 Haste Rating -- and it pretty much comes down to mashing your macro.
Ok I will now detail how I DPS:
333333Bestial Wrath + (Rapid Fire if not bloodlusted)3333333333333333333 (Haste potion) 333333333333333333333333333. repeat.
Soviet Waffle on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
didnt we cover something about how soviet waffle and riz could probably have sex while raiding due to lolol destro warlock BM hunter hard to DPS mirite
To be honest, with the right latency, you don't need a macro for a 3:2 rotation. Spamming steady shot will have the same effect. This has been my experience with 50-150ms latency. I do have Lightning Breath macro'd into steady shot, though.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
we have a survival hunter who some of the raid are saying doesnt have the gear for it. He says the amount of agility needed to make the spec viable is 600 agi. Now I don't know if he's wrong, or if "viable" doesn't necessarily mean "good", so I thought I'd ask.
600 would be bare minimum. The trick is, that's 600 before the talent that adds 15%. There's really no excuse for anyone with that little agility to be Survival in 25 mans (you should have the gear by that point), and in 10 mans it makes little sense to be survival at all (it's not horrible or anything, BM would just be more dps in that case).
For reference, I have no gear beyond kara/badges and my unbuffed agility is 909 after talents.
This just in: Survival hunters really aren't that good.
Well geared BM hunters do ~2300 DPS on stand-still fights like Brutallus and Survival hunters do not contribute enough AP to the raid to make up for the ~500 DPS deficit (and that's being generous). At 1000 AGI, you're only giving the raid 18 DPS per physical damage dealer, meaning 28 people in your 25 person raid would have to be melee DPS to make up the damage difference.
Paperdoll DPS is not the only DPS that gains from reducing the mobs armor.
Edit: Damn, waffle got to it. Learn to read all of the posts before snap-replying dhalphir
Not only is the dps gain from EW greater than this, the deficit is nowhere near 500dps in the first place. (ok, all of the WWS reports I have are expired or deleted and I'm tired of looking for more) - Geared Survival hunters can also put out 2300dps on Brutallus.
Also, if someone is experimenting with a survival hunter, they should use me. Please?
I sure would like to know where you get your magical numbers from.
Even playing around with Cheeky's Spreadsheet, I can't get a Survival Hunter over 2300 while basically cheating with raid buffs (as in 100% optimal hunter-stack group, including a Boomkin for 3% hit) yet I can get a BM hunter over the 2800 mark with the same gear level using both a 1:1 haste set and a 3:2 armor pen set.
You guys are putting waaaay too much faith in the ability of survival hunters. I'm still also failing to see how a static AP gain is any more than Character Sheet DPS. 14 AP = 1 DPS before armor mitigation. Look at any WWS parse for any rogue and ~70% of their overall damage is just auto-attacks, all of which is just character sheet DPS gains.
At 1300 Agi, 325 AP is added or 23 character sheet DPS.
23 * 1.35 (slice + T6 bonus) = 31.05
31.05 + (23 * .3 special damage) = ~38
Even if you assume crit rate you are still around 50 DPS gain.
That means you would require ~8-10 physical DPSers to bridge this gap. If you're a normal raid and run 2-3 rogues, 1-2 DPS warrs, 1-3 hunters and 1-2 Enh Shammies, you're still only at 10 people if you assume the highest of all of those values.
This is before even factoring in the armor mitigation on the target in relation to the AP gain.
One look at the survivaly tree just makes me cringe. There isn't a single talent in that entire tree that I find impressive.
On another note, is there a good pet that has an AOE taunt or something so I can play around by having him tank like 5 mobs at once and firing multi-shot and volley?
One look at the survivaly tree just makes me cringe. There isn't a single talent in that entire tree that I find impressive.
On another note, is there a good pet that has an AOE taunt or something so I can play around by having him tank like 5 mobs at once and firing multi-shot and volley?
not really, I think Gorilla Thunderstomp is as close as you'll get to an AOE pet. (the ability has a 1 minute cooldown so it's )
http://wwsscoreboard.com/bossclassview.php?bossid=42 scroll down to hunter. Average DPS of any hunter of any spec is 1870 and only BM hunters are in the top 15.
...
Survival hunters really aren't worth it. Really.
Well, thanks for the link. For example, look at #2 on the hunter list and you'll see that in the same run was a Survival hunter doing 2300dps adeline. Now if the other hunter is anyone other than the world #2 BM hunter, she outdps' them. Hardly "not worth it". During said run, you could also note that the BM hunter received 3 heroisms where the SV hunter received only 1. (the previous logs I'd looked at were linked here, but are expired: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12346-hunter_survival_raiding_2_1_a/p52/)
As for the AP gain: http://rogue.raidcal.com/ rogue DPS spreadsheet itself shows ~.33dps/AP gain.
Similarly, cheeky's hunter DPS spreadsheet shows more than .33dps/AP gain for hunters. (111dps for 300AP if you use Avessa's gear)
Warrior spreadsheet gives me a lower value ~40dps/300 ap.
I think normal raids do have around 8 physical dps, not to mention the smaller value the buff brings to pet dps, tank dps, and improved threat ceiling. When you take this into account, the EW buff not only bridges the gap in hunter dps, it surpasses it.
One look at the survivaly tree just makes me cringe. There isn't a single talent in that entire tree that I find impressive.
On another note, is there a good pet that has an AOE taunt or something so I can play around by having him tank like 5 mobs at once and firing multi-shot and volley?
I just respeced surv and all of the talents build on eachother. You can do alot of damage but you're basically there to make sure the melee in the raid is buffed. I have 909 agi in raid buffs (no consumables) I Have imp mark and expose weakness. those two talents give a very nice buff to the melee and even helps the tanks generate threat a little faster on the targets. I want to experiment with a wolf pet and see if the damage increase it gives to the rogues by spamming howl is worth using or not.
My dps is a little lacking as I still haven't quite found my groove yet but I've only completed one full night as surv. I was surv spec for a little bit but i went back to BM after one boss since we only had one rogue that night and my dps as bm is usually in the top three easily.
The gorilla stomp needs its cooldown taken off, or severely reduced. It already costs a ton of focus, might as well let it be somewhat spammable. More fun pets would make me want to play a hunter more.
Posts
Seriously, it's a completely ridiculous, pointless mechanic. While we're at it, take pet leveling the fuck out as well. Pets should level as their masters do, just like Warlocks' minions.
But that would be way overpowered! I mean, if you took out pet happiness and pet leveling then Hunters could...
uh...
They could...
...
Umm...
It'd be overpowered!
Your cat is fine.
Yes, dash is very good. try and stick to pets with dash , charge, or dive for leveling.
Your dmg pets like cat/ravager are great for instancing , windserpent is great when your crit is unnaturally high because you can macro their lightning breath into your steady / auto macro and your Go for the throat talent hardly lets you get rid of focus before you gain it right back. More of a raiding pet but you will break even dps wise in kara gear with it vs a ravager.
PvP in BG's your DPS pet is king here with my ravager beating out MY OWL for the micro-second increase in pushback against casters healers.
PVP arena is all about the scorpion. their scorpid poison stacking masks your viper sting to make it difficult to cleanse off . it can be cleansed off but usually at a cost of global cooldowns and a net mana cost of nearly the amount it would have drained for.
I personally have an Owl that I use for farming primals that I have the max rank resistances trained. Reason why is I could pick up a lvl 70 owl right out of skettis and i can round up 3-4 elementals and his screech (aoe abilty which cause decreased enemy AP and adds pet threat) will hold aggro through a mend pet on all the mobs .
TLDR: Ghost saber is an awesome pet and you will top meters and rape faces in Bg's and never have to worry about another pet till you've capped your stats and wanna squeeze a lil more out in whatever game you're into.
I'm pretty sure cats either have a faster or equal attack-speed to raptors.
the ravager's pushback comes from the poison-dot
A) I'm pretty sure Ravagers can't learn Scorpid Poison. Not 100%, but fairly certain. Ravagers' only notable skill is Gore.
well what causes the extra pushback then
Holy shit make one typo mistake and you cannot stop the FINNISH inquisiton: swap cat for owl man and lighten up. Simple typo hope I didnt break your game or anything
Bow speed, what is the most highly sought after? Do you want a fast bow, or slow as possible?
Hmmm, what else... Oh, only other question I can think of at the moment, do you Hunters usually go ALL the way up into the BM tree to 41 points before switching over to Marksman, or do you switch over after getting 5 points in Frenzy?
Depends on your spec. SV and MM hunters tend to stick around 3.0 speed bows. BM hunters tend to go 2.80-2.90 with 3:2 shot rotations, or 2.70-2.80 with haste effects if they're trying to get down to a tight 1:1 rotation.
I went 41 BM before switching over. It doesn't really matter in the end, but I liked having TBW as early as possible. Most BM hunters only end up going 4/5 Frenzy, at any rate, because the uptime is near 100% at that point anyway.
Also, chain trapping. Is it basically impossible to do unless you lay a trap well before a pull is made? What happens if you get a group that is pulling really quick and you don't have enough time to lay a trap a good 10 to 20 seconds before-hand?
What is the longest trap chain you can manage?
Take note: there is a difference between a rotation and macro. A macro is just a means to an end, and they don't all have the same results for all people depending on latency, etc.
As for trapping, if you're not spec'd into the survival talents, no, there's not a way to "chain trap". You've got the right idea with laying the first early. Put your second trap away from the other so you gain time from the mob running over. Hit the mob with a concussive shot, kite them a little, etc. when you need to. In most cases, 2 or 3 traps is really all that's manageable without problems, and it's also all that should be needed.
Assuming you're BM.
Trap cooldown is 30 seconds. We'll look at two scenarios:
Scenario 1 - You have prep time.
In this case, your mob is trapped sometime between 30 and 59 seconds after you placed the trap. This enables you to place your second trap immediately. Timeline will look something like.
0:0 (set trap) - 0:30 (mob trapped, backup placed) - 0:50 (mob breaks, walks into second trap) - 1:00 (third trap placed) - 1:10 (mob walks into third trap) - 1:20 (mob breaks third trap just as trap cooldown refreshes, hopefully enabling you to retrap).
Scenario 2 - You have no prep time.
Here we'll assume the worst case that you don't place trap 1 until the mob is on top of you. In this case, it goes something like
0:00 (trap placed) - 0:20 (start kiting) - 0:30 (retrap) - 0:50 (continue kiting) - 1:00 (retrap) - etc etc.
In either case, a trap resist or early break can $@#% up your universe if you're not ready for it. Best case scenario (1) you can reliably keep a mob trapped for about a minute/minute twenty. Worst case, you better get good at kiting
1:1 is a Steady -> Auto rotation
3:2 is a Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Auto rotation
There are also other rotational variants (i.e., MM, SV, and Arcane Shot weaving) but those are the primary 2 for BM spec.
The idea behind rotation selection is to have as little downtime during an auto-shot as possible (by means of a GCD or Steady shot cast). It is also important as not to lip your auto-shots as to interrupt their rhythm. For 3:2 rotations, the auto-pushback time needs to out-weigh the 'dead time' of auto shots.
It's hard to explain without a picture (and I don't have one on hand) but the general rule is 2.9 base speed and slower is 3:2 or 1:1 with instant weave. 2.8 and faster is 1:1.
Theres a lot of other factors in relation to rotation, but those are the basics. The other factors mostly have to do with mana consumption rate, target health, and mobility.
Hunter DPS is not remotely complicated. Get the right macro for your situation -- and really, there're only two "situations," namely where you have and don't have around 70 Haste Rating -- and it pretty much comes down to mashing your macro.
And sometimes mashing it extra-fast.
Oh. Well I like the sound of that.
:^:
333333Bestial Wrath + (Rapid Fire if not bloodlusted)3333333333333333333 (Haste potion) 333333333333333333333333333. repeat.
For reference, I have no gear beyond kara/badges and my unbuffed agility is 909 after talents.
I sure would like to know where you get your magical numbers from.
http://wwsscoreboard.com/bossclassview.php?bossid=42 scroll down to hunter. Average DPS of any hunter of any spec is 1870 and only BM hunters are in the top 15.
Even playing around with Cheeky's Spreadsheet, I can't get a Survival Hunter over 2300 while basically cheating with raid buffs (as in 100% optimal hunter-stack group, including a Boomkin for 3% hit) yet I can get a BM hunter over the 2800 mark with the same gear level using both a 1:1 haste set and a 3:2 armor pen set.
You guys are putting waaaay too much faith in the ability of survival hunters. I'm still also failing to see how a static AP gain is any more than Character Sheet DPS. 14 AP = 1 DPS before armor mitigation. Look at any WWS parse for any rogue and ~70% of their overall damage is just auto-attacks, all of which is just character sheet DPS gains.
At 1300 Agi, 325 AP is added or 23 character sheet DPS.
23 * 1.35 (slice + T6 bonus) = 31.05
31.05 + (23 * .3 special damage) = ~38
Even if you assume crit rate you are still around 50 DPS gain.
That means you would require ~8-10 physical DPSers to bridge this gap. If you're a normal raid and run 2-3 rogues, 1-2 DPS warrs, 1-3 hunters and 1-2 Enh Shammies, you're still only at 10 people if you assume the highest of all of those values.
This is before even factoring in the armor mitigation on the target in relation to the AP gain.
Survival hunters really aren't worth it. Really.
On another note, is there a good pet that has an AOE taunt or something so I can play around by having him tank like 5 mobs at once and firing multi-shot and volley?
not really, I think Gorilla Thunderstomp is as close as you'll get to an AOE pet. (the ability has a 1 minute cooldown so it's
They both do.
Well, thanks for the link. For example, look at #2 on the hunter list and you'll see that in the same run was a Survival hunter doing 2300dps adeline. Now if the other hunter is anyone other than the world #2 BM hunter, she outdps' them. Hardly "not worth it". During said run, you could also note that the BM hunter received 3 heroisms where the SV hunter received only 1. (the previous logs I'd looked at were linked here, but are expired: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12346-hunter_survival_raiding_2_1_a/p52/)
As for the AP gain:
http://rogue.raidcal.com/ rogue DPS spreadsheet itself shows ~.33dps/AP gain.
Similarly, cheeky's hunter DPS spreadsheet shows more than .33dps/AP gain for hunters. (111dps for 300AP if you use Avessa's gear)
Warrior spreadsheet gives me a lower value ~40dps/300 ap.
I think normal raids do have around 8 physical dps, not to mention the smaller value the buff brings to pet dps, tank dps, and improved threat ceiling. When you take this into account, the EW buff not only bridges the gap in hunter dps, it surpasses it.
Edit: even better numbers for more classes: http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t14715-cross-class_numbers_request_-_ap_dps/
I just respeced surv and all of the talents build on eachother. You can do alot of damage but you're basically there to make sure the melee in the raid is buffed. I have 909 agi in raid buffs (no consumables) I Have imp mark and expose weakness. those two talents give a very nice buff to the melee and even helps the tanks generate threat a little faster on the targets. I want to experiment with a wolf pet and see if the damage increase it gives to the rogues by spamming howl is worth using or not.
My dps is a little lacking as I still haven't quite found my groove yet but I've only completed one full night as surv. I was surv spec for a little bit but i went back to BM after one boss since we only had one rogue that night and my dps as bm is usually in the top three easily.
It's not.