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Tear me a new one (WIP)

DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
edited February 2008 in Artist's Corner
(This thread is mod approved. I mention it because I'm paranoid)

So I've been working on this picture of my WoW rogue for a bit.

I'm looking for serious criticism, most especially with the linework, anatomy, and design. (The clothing mostly)

I scanned this from a sketch and colored it in photoshop, if that's important.

RoguePunk.png



Since I put this I've changed the baubles in her hair to red and have started a real background.

DirtyDirtyVagrant on

Posts

  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    the coloring is not good...in fact it's really not good. it's bad.

    NakedZergling on
  • GrifterGrifter BermudaModerator mod
    edited February 2008
    the coloring is not good...in fact it's really not good. it's bad.

    I'd suggest giving a better comment than that.

    Grifter on
  • flundraflundra Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I'd say your biggest issue here is the design. I mean, does a manga character get any more generic than that? With the black & white clothes, all sorts of vaguely gothic accessories and huge eyes detailed far more than everything else, not to mention the pose. A bit harsh, but then again I have a general hate for anime and most things related to it.

    flundra on
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  • PandiosPandios Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    the coloring needs some work, on the hair you did a much better job than i ever could on giving hair detail.

    Practice some anatomy. She looks a bit awkward. but that pose can be difficult. And her eyes are way too big for my tastes, but that may be a style choice.

    Pandios on
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  • multimoogmultimoog Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    The feet are tiny (especially since she's wearing big, clunky shoes) and the ass is HUGE (especially since she's wearing what looks like a figure-hugging miniskirt). Rework the anatomy a lot and the pose will look more natural.

    Don't worry about the coloring yet.

    multimoog on
  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Hmm. You know, I probably should have mentioned that this is the first time I've ever colored anything.

    But he's right. I'm not happy with it at all.

    Lucky I think I can salvage it.

    The lines for the clothes are on a separate layer, so I can completely redo that. But I would welcome suggestions on other things she might wear. Other looks? The hot topic look died for me last night after I first put this on photobucket, but I can't find anything in Vogue. If there are catalogues that I should be subscribing to or something, I'd like to know.

    I can change the manga style eyes out and recolor the hair.

    I'm also wondering what the specific anatomy problems might be? Her left tit is bothering me, and her right leg, but that's all I see.

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • multimoogmultimoog Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I'm also wondering what the specific anatomy problems might be? Her left tit is bothering me, and her right leg, but that's all I see.

    Her ass is huge. Her foot is too small. Her thighs are huge and oddly shaped. Her right hand's fingers (especially the thumb) are too long and don't look like they're resting on the surface she's sitting on convincingly. Her mouth is too high up on her face, or her chin is too big. Her nose is positioned oddly.

    multimoog on
  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Grifter wrote: »
    the coloring is not good...in fact it's really not good. it's bad.

    I'd suggest giving a better comment than that.

    The coloring looks amateurish. The gradients are killing me. everything looks flat. The skin tone is washed out and the ribbon and eyes are way too saturated.

    NakedZergling on
  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Grifter wrote: »
    the coloring is not good...in fact it's really not good. it's bad.

    I'd suggest giving a better comment than that.

    The coloring looks amateurish. The gradients are killing me. everything looks flat. The skin tone is washed out and the ribbon and eyes are way too saturated.

    Great. So we know the coloring is amateur work. (And it really is, as I said)
    So how can I make it better? The only useful thing you've said so far is that I shouldn't use gradients.

    Also, it would help me to know what *not* to change. Is there anything like that here?

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    i find the leg to be very distracting..unless she's sitting on something it would be tucked back more.
    to be honest i dunno what else you could do to improve it. I would just keep drawing and build both your drawing skills and coloring skills. use this site... do 10+poses a day, and your mind will be blown at how much you improve. I do the 30 second drawings till i fill up a big sheet, makes a nice warm up..then i do random poses and get more in depth till i fill another sheet. i find it helps.

    http://www.posemaniacs.com/blog/

    as far as how you color..i have no idea what you're working with..tablet? mouse?

    NakedZergling on
  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Tablet. The small bamboo. It's 4x6 or something like that. I've decided to redraw the picture entirely. I'll lose the manga style and fix the clothes. I have some ideas about that...

    Thanks for the link. I'll have some new lines up in a jiffy.

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • bigpapabigpapa Registered User new member
    edited February 2008
    The anatomy is the first thing I notice. It's all wrong. I suggest studying some anatomy through the magic of the internets, get some references, do what ever you have to do to make it not look like she has some bone disease. For the face, just redo it completely. The eyes are a bit disturbing. A more subtle approach on the eyes would probably be best here. Since she is in a sultry pose, some fuller lips would accompany her well, as apposed to the lips of a 10 year old girl who got into her mom's lipstick. For cloths ideas, you did mention it's a wow rogue, so you might want to put her in some typical WoW gear. Tier 2 is a cool one in my opinion. And you can find armor references on the WoW main site.

    Hopefully this was helpful and I didn't come off like too big of a prick.

    bigpapa on
  • The_Glad_HatterThe_Glad_Hatter One Sly Fox Underneath a Groovy HatRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    The biggest problem with the colouring is that you used gradients. While these are an easy way to get smooth transitions, they're generally frowned upon in ps works.
    Your placement of gradients show that you had an idea of where to put your shadows. Why not try to go for a more of cell-shaded classical manga style? Manga didn't get famous for its gradient shadings, that's for sure.

    The_Glad_Hatter on
  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I've started some work on a new version, and here's what I have so far.

    I've got a lot of cleaning up and reworking to do obviously, and the background is not done by any means.

    NewRoguecopy.png

    What I want to do is paint the background as large hewn stones, with a stone floor. This room is very dark, so I'm still playing with light on her shirt there. The pink sleeves are supposed to be a sweater, worn underneath a chain shirt. This scene is taking place in the undercity, where my poor little rogue is being experimented on. I also think I'm going to paint something like a ruined corpse, being chewed on by rats.

    That shadow is supposed to be a guy checking the flow of his syringe.

    The legs need a lot of work, to be sure. I didn't even notice how flat they looked until I posted this. God damnnit.

    No gradients here this time, either.

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • The_Glad_HatterThe_Glad_Hatter One Sly Fox Underneath a Groovy HatRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Good thing you lost the gradients. painting is harder to start with but will get you farther.

    My main problem with your new drawing are the proportions... Try to measure/fit her head or face in her breasts, waiste, hands or total height.

    The average human is about 7/8 heads tall iirc.

    Also, the way you shaded her upper leg makes it look really round, like a sausage stuffed against her torso, it appears too round at the top.

    The_Glad_Hatter on
  • ProjeckProjeck Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    that is uh

    really

    fucking

    creepy

    but crit wise, it is looking better without any gradients

    Projeck on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Boobsize needs a major tonedown.

    Big improvement, keep working.

    Heartlash on
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  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    *Scratches head* Yeah, I sort of wanted her to be short with big boobs. I'm going to work on it some more tonight and tomorrow. Does anyone have a problem with the perspective of that shadow? Or is there some way that I could make it a bit more expressive?

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • The_Glad_HatterThe_Glad_Hatter One Sly Fox Underneath a Groovy HatRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    If you want to make someone look short, making her less tall is the way to go :) . Even if you're only showing one person and don't have any objects to compare her to, you can achieve this by making her 6 or 6,5 heads tall

    I don't have my wacom here to draw an example, but i found this butt-ugly one online.
    2ani.gif
    Just place her head lower and adjust the body.

    Making her waiste that slim also stretches her out. Try to compare the width of your own head with the width of your torso.

    On her breasts: don't use your avatar as a reference ;) When looking for referance pictures (always a good excuse...) try going for a natural look.

    I didn't really interpret the shadow as someone checking a syringe from the first glance. Doubt you'd be able to see the shadow of the stuff that comes out of a syringe though.
    Perhaps if you'd move the girl more towards the centre, or even more towards the right-side of the picture, you'd have more space to place the shadow. Placing her on the right side also helps interpret the action and gives it some room to breathe (we read pictures from L to R)

    maybe having him hold the syringe in his right hand, kinda away from his body, helps define the action. That way we'll get a better feel of the actual pose the guy is taking.
    But don't let the shadow hold you back. I can imagine it's quite difficult to find a balance between what to show and what not.

    quick final note on colouring: If you add some more colour to your darks, the resulting shadows will become way more interesting (dark blues, reds, greens, complementary colours... mix 'em up)

    The_Glad_Hatter on
  • RavenshadowRavenshadow Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    you really,really need to work on your anatomy. The proportions are really outta whack. And the composition is pretty boring too. If you're gonna draw someone chained up you need to do more than just draw someone standing then draw some chains over the hands and neck.

    You need to make sure and show the chains affecting the character in some way. Make them pull at her uncomfortably, or make her hang from them, or put them on long chains and show them weighing her down. As it is now its extremely vanilla.

    Keep workin' though. You'll get better.

    Ravenshadow on
  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    the chains are rendered nicely.
    do you do any thumbs before you start working or just jump right to it?

    NakedZergling on
  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I spent a while doing thumbs, actually. I did one where she was cowering, but I wasn't really happy with how little of her was shown, what with her knees pulled up and arms concealing her head. I really only wanted to paint her as she looked in a general setting, but then I settled on the whole...brutal medical torture thing. To answer your question, yes and no. Thumbs were drawn, but when it came right down to it, I drew the lines on my tablet and then proceeded to color.

    I'm really having a lot of problems with the background. You'd be amazed how little resource you could find on digitally painting stone walls.

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • SublimusSublimus Artist. nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    So you want it to be more expressive?

    Alright, there is a lot you can do to this piece to achieve expressiveness. First of, you essentially have a straight on shot of the character. She is standing up perfectly straight, conveying no emotion whatsoever, in fact, she is not even interacting with her environment at all. First off, try and capture a gesture of a frightened person. Try looking at horror movies or something, I doubt you will find many people just standing straight upright, perfectly still.

    If you are looking for a suspenseful mood than try and compose a shot that is a bit more dramatic. Try a shot from below, a shot from above, try them all and see what works. This is where the thumbnailing comes in handy. Because you can go through all of these option in a matter of minutes, and see what is working and what isn't.

    Another problem with the lack of expression in the piece is the simple lack of expression of the figure. Is she a zombie? Is she asleep? Is she even afraid of the guy coming towards her at all?? The questions all come to mind when I see he blank stare.

    Another issue with the expressionistic qualities of the piece would be the colors. They don't convey a mood. Right now your color palette is like that of an old folks home, plus some black. Try having something a little dingier considering she is in some sort of dungeon (at least i assume she would be).

    And lastly, I think it would be more dramatic if you had the shadow actually cast of the figure, with the needle coming close to her face. What that does is it more clearly conveys the danger that she is in by sort of further implying the action that is about to occur.

    Hope that helped.


    And yeah, those tits are huge.

    Sublimus on
  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    That all seems like sound advice. What kind of color changes would you recommend, exactly? I can't remember exactly why I chose green, but it's really not working out well. Also, for the life of me I can't design any kind of real outfit. Although I suppose a prisoner doesn't need much more than tattered rags. It actually bothered me toward the end that she was wearing armor in captivity.

    I had thumbs done, but what I wanted to draw was a simple character art reference. If I drew it from above or below, or drew her in a cowering or fearful pose, parts of her would be obscured. Or is that not a bad thing?

    And to the people who are merely saying "Learn anatomy, anatomy is way off, etc." it would help if you kind of clued me in on what exactly was wrong.

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • SublimusSublimus Artist. nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Do not be afraid to cover her. You seem to have mixed purposes for this piece. If the drawing is about what/who the character is, then you would be better off doing like an orthographic drawing or something. But if, like you said, you want it to be expressive, you are going to lose some of those details for sure, as they are not important to the piece.

    In terms of the anatomy critics; There are quite a few things wrong anatomically in the drawing. Too many to point out, really. And they are such mistakes that if you just started doing some studies on your own, then you would quickly be able to pick them out yourself.

    Its a matter of give a man a fish vs. tech a man a fish sort of thing, if you catch my drift. Plus, there should be more effort on your end of the deal seeing as how learning these things is a solid investment for your future, should you actually be considring this a career path of any sort.

    Sublimus on
  • The_Glad_HatterThe_Glad_Hatter One Sly Fox Underneath a Groovy HatRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    And to the people who are merely saying "Learn anatomy, anatomy is way off, etc." it would help if you kind of clued me in on what exactly was wrong.

    The shapes you gave things were acceptable at this point, but the proportions were not. Just compare toe proportions in the drawings to real-life proportions (deviantart has a huge selection of stock photography, but any full body shot of someone standing will do.

    Measure, Measure Measure (that's why you always see artists on tv holding out they're pencils with one eye closed. they're comparing the lenghts of different bodyparts).
    Examples of distances i check out for life drawing: how many head-hights in the full hight, how many head widths in the shoulder width, how many headdhights in a torso, how many heads in her lower legs, how many ... to ... You can make up the weirdest distances in the human body to compare to eachother.

    This probably will seem really artificial to draw in the beginning, and i don't recommend doing it each time you draw something, But i'd at least give it one shot and compare it to the drawing you just posted. Perhaps let go of the emotion/ story for a second and just focus on the anatomy, then move on to the narrative side of the picture.

    What anatomy parts are the most wrong? at the first glance: her head looks kinda small/body too long. Unnaturally big breasts, Large hands (can be fixed by adjusting head), waiste is too hourglassy/ narrow, forearm/ lower arm proportions are off.

    One final thing, because of the black lines at the space where her legs connect to the torso, it looks like her legs are attatched to her body like barbie's legs, 2 rotating leg joints. (is it clear what i mean by this? just make it less bulgy down there)

    Perhaps check out what a ribcage/ hips look like, getting those shapes down helped me a lot.

    I hope i don't come across as to preachy/ demanding realism. Altering and exaggerating stuff is great, but if you wanna do it right, it helps to know the basics.

    The_Glad_Hatter on
  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    And to the people who are merely saying "Learn anatomy, anatomy is way off, etc." it would help if you kind of clued me in on what exactly was wrong.

    The shapes you gave things were acceptable at this point, but the proportions were not. Just compare toe proportions in the drawings to real-life proportions (deviantart has a huge selection of stock photography, but any full body shot of someone standing will do.

    Measure, Measure Measure (that's why you always see artists on tv holding out they're pencils with one eye closed. they're comparing the lenghts of different bodyparts).
    Examples of distances i check out for life drawing: how many head-hights in the full hight, how many head widths in the shoulder width, how many headdhights in a torso, how many heads in her lower legs, how many ... to ... You can make up the weirdest distances in the human body to compare to eachother.

    This probably will seem really artificial to draw in the beginning, and i don't recommend doing it each time you draw something, But i'd at least give it one shot and compare it to the drawing you just posted. Perhaps let go of the emotion/ story for a second and just focus on the anatomy, then move on to the narrative side of the picture.

    What anatomy parts are the most wrong? at the first glance: her head looks kinda small/body too long. Unnaturally big breasts, Large hands (can be fixed by adjusting head), waiste is too hourglassy/ narrow, forearm/ lower arm proportions are off.

    One final thing, because of the black lines at the space where her legs connect to the torso, it looks like her legs are attatched to her body like barbie's legs, 2 rotating leg joints. (is it clear what i mean by this? just make it less bulgy down there)

    Perhaps check out what a ribcage/ hips look like, getting those shapes down helped me a lot.

    I hope i don't come across as to preachy/ demanding realism. Altering and exaggerating stuff is great, but if you wanna do it right, it helps to know the basics.


    I see, I see. The Naked zergling guy showed me this website, but I really havent had a chance to use it yet. So far the entirety of my anatomy study has been from Andrew Loomis books. The hips and the ribcage are daunting things, really. I think I have them down, and then I try to draw something with a slight tilt and I'm lost. Where does the neck fit in here? How does the shoulder sit, and where would her breast be at this angle? It's bullshit.

    I dont really plan on having any kind of career in art, unless you count the occasional commission or something. It's just something I kind of like to do. Not to say that a job in art wouldn't completely rule, but I never considered myself a real candidate. I'm 21 and just now getting around to starting to learn shit I should have had down years ago. I see 13 year old kids on deviantart that kick my ass.

    Anyway, I'll spend some more time on anatomy, and I'll put a lot more effort into the construction of the next one.

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • ProjeckProjeck Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    hey, at least you're putting in an effort :^:

    Projeck on
  • FantasyrogueFantasyrogue Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Age is all relative anyway. I'm 26, there are a lot of people (here and in other places) years younger than me that can kick my ass at art. But it's what I love doing and I'd love to get better at it.. maybe some day I can do more with it than entertain just myself. Hell, my mother knows a woman who, at 80 years old, decided to go to an art college!

    It sounds like you're asking the right questions and atleast looking at how things work, it just takes practice and more practice to get these things down.

    Fantasyrogue on
  • MykonosMykonos Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    if u want to quick fix on ur bg and give it a dark grungy look, find yourself some wall textures via google, sav em, open in ps, and drag it over your painting. it will be on a seperate layer so set that layer to overlay - then play around with levels, opactiy, and colors till u get that look u were going for.

    after watching a dozen concept art videos you'll be amazed by often they used tricks like this get a quick effect that on the outset would seem like hours of painstaking work (granted, they do know what there doing and how to do it right)

    Mykonos on
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  • KirkKirk Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Boobsize needs a major tonedown.


    booo

    Kirk on
  • CyberMonkeytron3000CyberMonkeytron3000 Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Kirk wrote:
    boob

    Fixed

    CyberMonkeytron3000 on
  • Hamez12783Hamez12783 Registered User new member
    edited February 2008
    I deffinately agrre that the chest is more than a bit large. It looks as though proportion is one of your biggest issues. I also think the hands need some work. My main issue for this particular piece is the overall lack of emotion. I guess it seems a little too barbie for me. I would recoment some life drawing both studying anatomically and emotionally. I know you like the anime style but incorporating life in to any style usually cant go wrong. Whatever the case dont stop because you can definately tell your enjoying yourself and when it comes to your art yours is ultimately the only opinion that matters

    Hamez12783 on
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