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BREAKING NEWS: Shooting at North Illinois University...

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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I'm guessing it was something that was wrong with him for a long time that no one really thought was anything serious until whoops he's unloading on people.

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    The Reverend Dr GalactusThe Reverend Dr Galactus Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    The even more baffling thing is, the reports are all saying the guy was a former grad student who hadn't been enrolled for like a year. No known connection to the class at all. According to witnesses, he said nothing before opening fire, aiming at no one in particular, showing nothing but a blank stare.

    I should mention that I'm following this particularly closely as I'm an alum, still close to a number of people who go there (everyone I called/texted/facebooked/PMed is safe). It makes my skin crawl to think this and honestly there's still too little information to make this sort of conjecture, but knowing the campus fairly well, Cole Hall is probably the one place where at any time of day, you're likely to find the largest number of people in one room. That could conceivably be the sole reason the shooter chose it. D:

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    WerdnaWerdna Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I heard that he was a grad student. Anyone know what program he was in?

    Werdna on
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    yotesyotes Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    chasm wrote: »
    I love how people actually believe that there's no way for someone to get a gun other than legally.

    Well what is easier? Getting a gun legally? Or illegally?

    I'd find it pretty hard to get hold of a gun in England right now. There is maybe one gun shop within 50 miles of where I live. And even then, I'd need a whole boatload of licenses.

    Just seems strange to me, no, un fathomable, that some people pretend that having strict gun laws is pointless, or unworkable.

    How many people are going to be shot per year before some action is taken? It is puzzling.

    Gun crime is also top of my list of 'cons' for moving to the united states (which I have been working on for about a year). I don't want to get shot, and moving for work to New York or San Francisco worries me.

    The thing is, nobody is going to run to the gun shop, buy a gun and bullets, and go shoot up a classroom. The meager restrictions in the US already cover that. Most of these shootings are well planned, and strict gun controls aren't going to completely end school shootings.
    Besides, didn't a school shooting happen in Norway, where guns are almost impossible to obtain?

    It was in Finland, lots of guns in Finland, #3 worldwide in gun ownership per capita, after the United States and Yemen according to Wikipedia.

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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    It's weird how these things become the style and come in waves.

    Shinto on
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    markrr23markrr23 Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Monoxide wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Yup, this is my college. I just graduated a month or so ago.

    I'm still here. I had a class in Cole this morning. Luckily, it wasn't this afternoon.

    They're still sorting through the chaos, but CNN's reporting 5 dead including the gunman.

    edit: you know, it might be a little insensitive to turn this into a gun debate

    My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their family/friends, and to all members of the NIU family. This is horrific and, until it happens to your school, you don't ever really think it can.

    I graduated a couple of years ago. I had 3-4 classes in Cole and lived 3 years at Neptune, basically a stone's throw away from there. It's just so disturbing to know it happened in a place that I know like the back of my hand.

    EDIT: What's even more disturbing to me is that my wife is a college professor, albeit not at NIU. The thought of this happening at her school scares the shit out of me.

    markrr23 on
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    moniker wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    It sure seems to be a bunch of damn shootings this year.

    This, those shootings at that city council meeting, the Lane Bryant shootings, and a few others that just seem off from the usual gang-related stuff.

    Of course it could just be media attention.

    It's strange particularly since violent crimes have been trending downward for a longass time now. Chicago's the safest it's been in decades (for adults, I think teens are still pretty fucked with gangs in some areas) yet Tinley Park just last week and now this. Hell, neither of them were even typical homicides or manslaughter, but premeditated executions of sorts.

    They were trending down in the '90s and early '00s.

    I don't know about Chicago, but Boston has been struggling with an uptick in violence during the last few years.

    Shinto on
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    markrr23markrr23 Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Werdna wrote: »
    I heard that he was a grad student. Anyone know what program he was in?

    Sociology.

    markrr23 on
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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Kagera wrote: »
    Terrible. I would like to hear this guys reasons on why he thought these people had to die.

    Does it matter?

    Only if you want to keep stuff like this from happening again.



    While it's not really based on facts or anything, I've always kind of thought that humanity might not be well suited to the societies it's created for itself. To paraphrase Office Space, human beings weren't mean to live their lives in cubicals staring at computer screens and distributing memos, etc. In terms of biological evolution, we're not that far removed from the cavemen, and sometimes I think people just don't fit into things and they get disconnected from society.

    While the hippy claims that animals don't have wars and murders are complete bull, I do think only humans have suicide, and I've always wondered why exactly that is.

    Scooter on
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    2and2is52and2is5 Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Fuck, as someone currently enrolled in a large university, you realize how easy this is to do. There are thousands of people in and out of campus buildings everyday. It's scary.

    2and2is5 on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Scooter wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Terrible. I would like to hear this guys reasons on why he thought these people had to die.

    Does it matter?

    Only if you want to keep stuff like this from happening again.

    I don't think there will EVER be a way to stop a madman from killing people, because you'd either have to get rid of madmen or operate under a severely oppressive society and even THEN incidents would happen.

    What his motivation for going nuts was doesn't really factor into the equation IMO, because it's bound to be some stupid bullshit like the illuminati or whatever. I think the only thing to learn here is better preventative measures and gun control.

    Kagera on
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    ArikadoArikado Southern CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Report

    Stephen P. Kazmierczak, 27
    He was a sociology grad the year before. Not enrolled there anymore. Class he shot up was an intro class so it was full of freshmen and sophomores. Death toll is now 6.

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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Heard a rumor he had stopped taking meds of some kind, don't know if it was for mental problems though.

    Kagera on
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    senor_xsenor_x Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    You'll never guess who Fox News had on tv today as a 'school shooting expert.'

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    VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    2and2is5 wrote: »
    Fuck, as someone currently enrolled in a large university, you realize how easy this is to do. There are thousands of people in and out of campus buildings everyday. It's scary.

    As someone going to one of the largest universities in the US, I can tell you that having more people just increases the tiny percentage that it might eventually be here. It can be anyone who snaps. There's very little correlation between these shootings in terms of doing anything to prevent the motive.

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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    senor_x wrote: »
    You'll never guess who Fox News had on tv today as a 'school shooting expert.'

    *sigh* He's still around? Which game was it this time?

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    senor_xsenor_x Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Oh the usual, Counter-Strike etc...

    thompsontv.jpg

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    Peter PrinciplePeter Principle Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Shinto wrote: »
    It's weird how these things become the style and come in waves.


    Not really. The coverage inspires copycats (and that coverage inspires more copycats, and so on). Every news story is "free advertising" to give the next guy who decides to go off his meds a great make-me-famous way to end his unpleasant life.

    Peter Principle on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    Shinto wrote: »
    It's weird how these things become the style and come in waves.


    Not really. The coverage inspires copycats (and that coverage inspires more copycats, and so on). Every news story is "free advertising" to give the next guy who decides to go off his meds a great make-me-famous way to end his unpleasant life.
    :|

    Oboro on
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    NarianNarian Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    senor_x wrote: »
    Oh the usual, Counter-Strike etc...

    thompsontv.jpg

    Is there any evidence that the shooter played video games or is this just FOX/JT being despicable human beings once again?

    Narian on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    They've needed evidence before...? Right now I've heard nothing about the guy playing video games, just being on medication that he subsequently went off of and became a bit erratic.

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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Shinto wrote: »
    It's weird how these things become the style and come in waves.


    Not really. The coverage inspires copycats (and that coverage inspires more copycats, and so on). Every news story is "free advertising" to give the next guy who decides to go off his meds a great make-me-famous way to end his unpleasant life.

    Then instead of 2 solid weeks of coverage like VA Tech (granted, that was huge in scope compared to these other school/mall shootings) they're given only a small mention by the national media, which causes this type of crime to subside for a few years. Morbid supply and demand.

    Octoparrot on
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    Peter PrinciplePeter Principle Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    It's weird how these things become the style and come in waves.


    Not really. The coverage inspires copycats (and that coverage inspires more copycats, and so on). Every news story is "free advertising" to give the next guy who decides to go off his meds a great make-me-famous way to end his unpleasant life.
    :|

    Stunning critique. Here's my witty rejoinder:

    http://www.claytoncramer.com/JMME2.htm

    Peter Principle on
    "A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people's business." - Eric Hoffer, _The True Believer_
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    No, I agree there's some correlation, I've just grown to despise the "copycat" branding because it's shifting blame from where the investigative focus should lie. It's important to tackle the mass-media's exploitation of these tragedies, but it's also symptomatic of the undue scientific attention paid the perpetrators.

    Oboro on
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    OmeksOmeks Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Narian wrote: »
    senor_x wrote: »
    Oh the usual, Counter-Strike etc...

    thompsontv.jpg

    Is there any evidence that the shooter played video games or is this just FOX/JT being despicable human beings once again?

    Since when has FOX News ever needed evidence?

    Worse case scenario: they're really unsure so they tack a question mark on the end. Or come up with fake occupations. I mean really, how can you be an 'expert' on school shootings? Why would you want to be an expert on school shootings?

    Also: fuck him for shitting all over a terrible situation with his crusade.

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Omeks wrote: »
    Also: fuck him for shitting all over a terrible situation with his crusade.

    Shitting over terrible situations is his crusade. He's like the WBC, only with less Jesus.

    moniker on
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    ArikadoArikado Southern CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    So a lot of the reports I've read about this Stephen Kazmierczak fellow seems to not follow the usual agenda.

    Grad student in Sociology
    Leading expert in prison sociology
    Honor student and basically top of the class
    No previous criminal record
    No previous medical issues have been reported yet
    No note or motive has been revealed yet

    A lot of this doesn't really add up, even if he was fucked up in the head there isn't much past evidence that would lead to that conclusion.

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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    NEWSFLASH: Prevailing opinions in the United States of America make it undesirable to be fucked up in the head. Those who are both smart and fucked up prove very capable in hiding it -- when you do something like suddenly change their medication (like, initiate Plan Cold Turkey), it is inviting some rather poor decision-making.

    As a high-functioning mentally ill person, I can speak from first-hand experience that I can very capably hide everything I want from my life ... to a certain point. Once stress or whatever other factors take me away from there, I am just the same as anyone else suffering from my conditions, intelligent or not.

    Finding conclusively whether or not there were any medical/psychiatric issues is going to be key. After that, first-hand testimonial from friends and loved ones is the best that we'll likely get. Looking at the fact he was successful and intelligent, though, and thusly concluding that "it doesn't add up,"

    frustrates me, very much,

    because a number of people have in my own life taken that stance towards me and it's anathema to getting people help. This is a culture where the mentally ill or unwell are looked down upon, and where the smart that do not 'carry their weight' are looked down upon as well.

    Oboro on
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    ruzkinruzkin Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Maybe it's because we're on the other side of the planet, but even Australian newscasters seem to be getting tired of this. On ABC news, the presenter sounds so tired. "Oh, and anoooother school shooting in the US."

    It's a tragedy without any reason or justification, and it could have been so easily prevented or minimized. Could someone truly set on killing people get around strict gun laws? Yes, with time. But would they deter a LOT of people who just have a sudden urge to let their rage boil over? Yes. Would the guy have done less damage with only a pistol, as opposed to a pistol and a shotgun? Yes.

    Kids shouldn't be dying for a lack of simple laws.

    ruzkin on
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    BallmanBallman Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Yeah, in particular, the academic success, no prior prison record, and lack of known illnesses don't mean much. Even complete lunatics have to start somewhere. (I apologize if that sounds heartless--that's not my intent.) Besides, doing well in school can actually go either way, because you often have to give up a number of the things that keep your average Joe sane in order to succeed. Nothing in that list points directly to a stable state of mind.

    Ballman on
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    ruzkinruzkin Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Arikado wrote: »
    So a lot of the reports I've read about this Stephen Kazmierczak fellow seems to not follow the usual agenda.

    Grad student in Sociology
    Leading expert in prison sociology
    Honor student and basically top of the class
    No previous criminal record
    No previous medical issues have been reported yet
    No note or motive has been revealed yet

    A lot of this doesn't really add up, even if he was fucked up in the head there isn't much past evidence that would lead to that conclusion.

    The dux of my school - the no drinking, no partying, took his school books on camp, perfect score (100.00 UAI) graduate with a very bright future in theoretical mathematics, had a nervous breakdown in his first year of university and was found scribbling formulae all over the walls of his dorm. He later returned to my school to work as a gardener; he was just emotionally unable to break ties with the school.
    So yeah. This stuff happens to folk.

    ruzkin on
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    fightinfilipinofightinfilipino Angry as Hell #BLMRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    oh hey, the gun dealer who sold this guy his weapon is the same dealer that sold the handguns to Seung-Hui Cho.

    yeah, that's a lawsuit...

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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    oh hey, the gun dealer who sold this guy his weapon is the same dealer that sold the handguns to Seung-Hui Cho.

    yeah, that's a lawsuit...

    I wonder if it's just his bad luck or he was that shady.

    Kagera on
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    fightinfilipinofightinfilipino Angry as Hell #BLMRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    dunno...

    also, from that same article:
    CNN wrote:
    A tearful Robert Kazmierczak stepped onto his porch and asked reporters to go away Friday.
    Video Watch the father break down »

    CNN really really pisses me off sometimes...

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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    Kagera wrote: »
    oh hey, the gun dealer who sold this guy his weapon is the same dealer that sold the handguns to Seung-Hui Cho.

    yeah, that's a lawsuit...

    I wonder if it's just his bad luck or he was that shady.

    Maybe it's Islamic terrorists operating from within the USA! We must close our borders at once!

    ege02 on
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    I should really ask the college president if she has a plan for dealing with this kind of thing.

    Shinto on
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    Not SarastroNot Sarastro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    NEWSFLASH: Prevailing opinions in the United States of America make it undesirable to be fucked up in the head.

    ...because prevailing opinion aside, being fucked in the head is otherwise desirable?
    Those who are both smart and fucked up prove very capable in hiding it -- when you do something like suddenly change their medication (like, initiate Plan Cold Turkey), it is inviting some rather poor decision-making.

    As a high-functioning mentally ill person, I can speak from first-hand experience that I can very capably hide everything I want from my life ... to a certain point. Once stress or whatever other factors take me away from there, I am just the same as anyone else suffering from my conditions, intelligent or not.

    Don't want to sound like a Scientologist, but as the less hysterical / greedy members of the mental health community agree, this is called 'dealing' and is in fact a good thing. What you describe as 'high-functioning mentally ill' was previously described as 'mostly sane', and both descriptions totally miss the point: mental illness / function / sanity isn't an all-or-nothing on-off switch, it is a sliding scale. 'High-functioning' is a function of increasing "sanity", just as 'mentally ill' is a function of decreasing it. Labelling people who are largely capable of functioning as having X disorder or being "mentally ill" is arguably unhelpful, as aside from the fact we are still absurdly bad at diagnosing or even categorising specific disorders, the label itself is likely to be a decreasing "sanity" function, rather than an increasing one. I'm sure most people here have seen 'awful early psychiatry' films where they tell people to think themselves sane and do all sorts of medieval shit, but there is a grain of truth in it: endless studies have shown that if you treat people as or tell them they are "sane", they are more likely to behave in a sane manner; similarly, group mentally ill people together with little treatment & behave as if they are "insane", and their mental states worsen. Also remember that high intelligence corrolates with mental illnesses much more than is average; different sides, same coin?

    Perhaps I misunderstand, but I'm a bit bemused by your seeming implication that someone like (possibly) this guy should just let all the crazy freeflow with no public prejudice against it, and this would be a better situation?
    This is a culture where the mentally ill or unwell are looked down upon, and where the smart that do not 'carry their weight' are looked down upon as well.

    Or alternatively states of or displays of mental illness are looked down on as undesirable, because, except perhaps to someone in an extreme manic phase, they are. We can treat mental illness much better than we do, but trying to rewrite mental disorders as 'equally valid psychological states' is not the way to go.

    Not Sarastro on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    There's a difference between 'equally valid psychological states' and demonizing people to the point where misinformation and fear lead people into thinking that coming forward about something that might be no worse than depression could ruin their life.

    I don't think he should have 'let his crazy flow,' but in the event he was suffering from some sort of internalized trauma or illness it would have been much better for his own health if he had been open with it to someone. Also re: your comments about a sliding scale, you're discounting the existence of breakdowns, which historically have been linked to otherwise 'normal' individuals who everyone thought was doing just dandy.

    Beyond that, I'm not going to respond because your post is largely a subtle strawman and flame-baiting and I've learnt better than to try and 'debate' with you.

    Oboro on
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    Not SarastroNot Sarastro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    Yes, lord knows that any disagreement can't be my honest opinion and must be flamebaiting. Grow up and accept that just because some people don't wear their problems like a martyr's badge, it doesn't mean they haven't had any.

    Because generally I agree with you. Yes, breakdowns are a specific case of externally or self-induced trauma (thus the name), but precisely the reason you write 'normal' in quotes and everyone thought was doing just dandy is an example of the sliding scale - there is no 'normal', and everyone is somewhere along the scale at some point; breakdowns are an example of rapid movement down the scale. Nonetheless, people recover from them, and the existence of a 'breakdown' suggests that they were 'better' previously.

    Equally obviously, demonizing people or misinfomation/fear about mental illness is bad m'kay. But that is precisely why I object to a lot of the widespread characterisation of mental illness from, for want of a better term, 'sympathetic' opinion. Much of it characterises mental disorders as a life-long incurable battle; and much as if you tell someone with a drinking problem that they are now an alcoholic for life, can never touch a single bottle ever again, and must consistently battle every day against alcoholism, you are setting them up for failure. Few people have the will or discipline to maintain that for a lifetime without slipping, and when you talk in extremes, that slip becomes a massive failure which is likely to lead to a downward spiral, rather than just a surmountable blip in otherwise balanced behaviour. Creating such fear of what will happen when you slip increases the damage when it inevitably occurs.

    Talking about mental illness in terms of eternal extremes is demonisation whether you are in total denial of it, or total acceptance of it. No, it's not healthy for people to deny problems, but neither is it healthy to obsess over them.

    There should probably be a little Ying-Yang symbol here.

    Not Sarastro on
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    arod_77arod_77 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2008
    oh hey, the gun dealer who sold this guy his weapon is the same dealer that sold the handguns to Seung-Hui Cho.

    yeah, that's a lawsuit...

    No it isn't.

    I doubt the journalism of the article, it mentions that two magazines and a holster were sold to this guy from the online retailer--but neither of those are restricted items and neither of them are actually firearms

    arod_77 on
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