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Canada (Alberta) Labor Law question
Endomatic
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Can my employer FORCE me to work over time?
I work for a rent-to-own company. Very shady for the most part. Takes advantage of people who don't manage money well.
My scheduled shift today was from 9am-6pm. At 5:55pm the district manager called and said that we could not leave until we were at a certain percentage of overdue clients (percentage of overdue vs. total amount of customers). This is not something that normally happens, but it has a couple times in the past (over a 6 month period, perhaps, 3 times.)
This is difficult because most of these people are already at least a week late and they are not answering our phone calls or their door when we are inevitably forced to go to their home.
I really am beginning to dislike this line of work, but that is irrelevant to this. I just wanted to provide some extra info.
Can they legally do this with 5 minutes of notice?
On top of that, I share a vehicle with a family member which works nightshifts from 7pm-7am. If I were to work the overtime, that person would not be able to get to work (especially on such short notice) and would likely get fired or at the very least reprimanded if they were VERY lucky.
I would just phone Alberta Labor Board, but it 7:00pm on Saturday here. I thought I'd put this up and see if anyone had any info/input.
Thanks.
I work for a rent-to-own company. Very shady for the most part. Takes advantage of people who don't manage money well.
My scheduled shift today was from 9am-6pm. At 5:55pm the district manager called and said that we could not leave until we were at a certain percentage of overdue clients (percentage of overdue vs. total amount of customers). This is not something that normally happens, but it has a couple times in the past (over a 6 month period, perhaps, 3 times.)
This is difficult because most of these people are already at least a week late and they are not answering our phone calls or their door when we are inevitably forced to go to their home.
I really am beginning to dislike this line of work, but that is irrelevant to this. I just wanted to provide some extra info.
Can they legally do this with 5 minutes of notice?
On top of that, I share a vehicle with a family member which works nightshifts from 7pm-7am. If I were to work the overtime, that person would not be able to get to work (especially on such short notice) and would likely get fired or at the very least reprimanded if they were VERY lucky.
I would just phone Alberta Labor Board, but it 7:00pm on Saturday here. I thought I'd put this up and see if anyone had any info/input.
Thanks.
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CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
It says that an employer must provide 24 hours notice before requiring a double shift in order for it to be legal, but I'm not exactly looking at a double shift. More like maybe 1-2 hours, still a problem given my situation, but I asked here to be sure.
Considering that it's Alberta, couldn't you just say screw 'em and leave? As far as I knew just about everywhere out there was hurting for workers, so I didn't think it was hard to find a half decent job...
This http://www.law-faqs.org/ab/labour.htm might be a good place to look...
anyway, definitely illegal in Saskatchewan and I believe that basic Canadian labour laws in general make it illegal to demand/force overtime save for certain key industries (ie healthcare)
I don't have anything relevant to add. I just wanted to point out that with whatever font firefox uses that link appeared to be www.law-fags.org/blahblah on first glance.
Edit: Actually, I don't know how much it differs but I know that in the U.S. they have to give you at least an hours notice to make you stay late.
Regardless of the law, surely explaining your situation what with the shared vehicle and family member's job would be a good enough reason for your manager to let you go home on time. Have you tried explaining this to them?
I'm not prepared to quit yet. Everyone there except the Manager (it's a small 5 person, including me, office) is really great. I'm friends with all of them. It's the manager and the district manager that are being ridiculous.
The thing that really bothers me is the way it's told to me.
Manager gets off the phone with District.
Manager: Alright, we have to stay until we get 7 (people) off our back end. No one goes home until it's done.
Me: I can't stay, I have to go home, my sister needs the car. Besides, I've called everyone 3 or 4 times today (And their "references". People we bother when customers don't call us back. Family and friends exclusively). What more can I do?
Manager: We've got to, it needs to be done.
Me: No, I really can't. She has to go to work tonight and she needs the car.
Manager: Okay I can get someone to drive you there.
Me: (Not understanding)I... uh, what? No, she needs the car, I have to give it to her.
Manager: That's what I mean, I'll get someone to follow you home (about 10-15 minute drive), you can drop off your car and come back.
Me: Are you serious?
Manager: Yes.
Me: *I cussed a bit here. I was angry. Perhaps I shouldn't have, but we all swear around each other PLENTY of times through out the day as long as no customers are in the store at all.* I said it was bullshit and stupid. I am pissed. etc. What can we do? These people are already a week late, they won't answer calls etc.
(At this point you need to realize that I had been telemarketing for 4 hours straight pretty much with no break. It's not one of my usual activities. We usually only do it Thursday nights, but this was special in that: It was Saturday and we had a sale. We had called most of these people Thursday ((or Wednesday, or in a lot of cases, both)). People who were commited today were called again to see if they were still coming in today. We call these people SO MUCH. And it's the same people over and over again every week. We work off referrals, but no one wants to refer someone so they get bombarded. So we just call people we have. Thank god we don't cold call through the phone book. This is really pathetic in my eyes, but it's the job they give me. So I get irritated when I am forced to be this low. I tried to tell them that this many calls will just anger them and push them away, but the Manager is a slave and is totally behind the company 100% and all it's (often silly) rules and regulations and "mandates". It's why she's manager and not someone else.)
Back on track:
Eventually I went home and was expecting a guy to follow me but I got home, called his cell and asked if he was coming and he said not to bother. Now, I'm not really concerned with being fired or anything. I'm a good employee. I've only been away 4 days in 6 months due to back injuries sustained at work lifting things around awkward angles (They weren't consecutive). Also, 1 day was due to sickness. I (and mostly everyone really) often work while sick, regardless of the chances to A: Infect co-workers and B: Infect Customers. I work hard and do my job well. Sometimes I complain. Everyone does.
I'm just tired of being threatened all the time. It happens very often. If they asked me to stay later nicely, and I was actually able to do so, more often than not I would. But it never happens. It always the threats.
The pay is fairly decent. The city is primarily a manufacturing city. A lot of meat products. Of course. So it's really better than being in a factory. Every day is usually interesting or funny, and I like the people I work with (mostly). It's stressful. The threats really get to me. The business (of taking advantage of people) gets to me.
There is ups and downs to it. More downs I would say, but there are worse things.
TLDR:
I justify myself.
Mention I'm not ready to quit.
I type a nearly exact transcript of my end of the day talk with my manager.
I explain my unprofessional behavior and reaction but highlight my human qualities and faults.
I put forth my opinion that I am a pretty good employee for the most part.
Finish story.
Highlight pros and cons of job.
Sorry for so many brackets. This is a colorful and detail filled job if anything.
I dont think they can force you to work overtime, but they can ask you, and if you say no find reasons to fire you. Like cursing at your boss.
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Ding ding ding! This is especially true at lower-skill jobs (no offense meant) where they can replace you with a starving student in no time flat.
Do you expect to be accosted when you go back into work for leaving on time? If they don't enforce their 'no one leaves til 7 policy' on people who have legitimate reasons why they can't work overtime, then who's to say they won't continue to not enforce it in the future? Hell, they might want to let you go but don't want to look bad in their superior's eyes for letting folks leave - so they come up with some ridiculous story about sending people to follow you home and then call them off as soon as you've left. This may be far fetched, depending on the nature of your manager, but them telling you "Not to bother coming back" after going to such pains to plan the elaborate system that was going to get you back seems just as odd.
Regardless, it sound like you hate the job. You don't like your managers, they don't seem particularly enamored with you, and the work itself sounds awful. If what you do frustrates you so terribly, is it really so out of the question to at least look around for a new job? If you don't find anything, you can continue at your current position, but should you stumble upon something far better (like a low level office job where you sit in a mail room and never touch a phone) it's certainly a step up.
I did accept. I told one my co-workers to follow me home and pick me up. Once I got home, I called the guy and he said that the manager said not to bother and just let me stay home.
I also didn't swear AT my boss. I said that the situation is bullshit and that I was pissed off. I didn't call her any names or say anything particularly derogatory. The office is very laid back. The job is too stressful (and we were all very stressed out that day) for everyone for it to be otherwise. We have to relax around each other because it's the only time we really get a rest. It's difficult to explain exactly. I wouldn't expect anyone to really grasp the atmosphere from my description alone.
The manager is very stubborn and not very sophisticated. She is very forgetful and sometimes says the most ridiculous things. She always has some anecdote about something we really don't care about and isn't related to anything at all. Often when I am trying to work she will talk to me in the middle of it. If I'm on the phone she'll try to talk to me at the same time. All the time.
She has never been a manager before. She has been manager for 4 months or so. Her previous job was pumping gas. She was made manager because she is a yes-woman and doesn't really think for herself a whole lot.
This isn't a job that requires a university degree, but it is a job with many different responsibilities and tasks. There is a big learning curve. You literally do everything. The Sales, the Collections, the repairs and cleaning, the deliveries. Everything.
It costs literally about 2 or 3 thousand dollars (at least) in time paid, and training, for an employee to become profitable.
And I do my job well, and they have a hard time keeping people as it is. Also, I am the resident computer expert. Not a single person knows anything about computers. I fix them all. I have saved the company several hundreds, if not a thousand or more, dollars in repair/man-hour costs from fixing them myself.
No, you didnt accept it, you said "This is a bunch of stupid bullshit, but whatever". The appropriate response, even if youre pissed off, is "Oh... really, are you serious? Well, fine, if its only for an hour or two and you need me that badly."
And i dont care if you swear around your boss and coworkers all the time. So do most people these days, if their boss is relatively young. The difference is knowing when its appropriate. When your boss is asking you to help out because shes under direct orders to do so, that is definately the wrong time. If youre shooting the shit in the lunch room, or youre pissed off at some moron customer who wont pay up, its ok to go "This is a bunch of bullshit". But think about it this way, her boss is asking her to make the employees stay late. She definately doesnt want to do that, and probably knows that no one is going to be happy about having to stay. And there are you, infront of probably a couple of your coworkers, calling her out and saying "This is a bunch of stupid bullshitshit! Ive got places to be!". How does that make her look? Probably like she has no real authority, and undermines the confidence of her managing ability in the eyes of the other people in the office. Which is probably the worst thing you can do to a manager who already probably is self conscious about their managerial skills.
Also 2-3k dollars for paid training is basically petty cash to any company that matters. If they think youre going to be a big enough stumbling block that its worth replacing you, they will. Because while youre there sucking away, what, 30-50k dollars a year, they could fire your ass and replace you for only 2-3k dollars.
Honestly, your situation doesnt sound unique at all. Most people have, at one time or another worked with a boss who was promoted ahead of way more qualified people, who dont know what the fuck is going on, and have been tasked with more than one responsibility. And your reply, to me, doesnt give me any further information other than "Yeah, it sounds like you fucked up".
Best thing to do, in my opinion, at this point would be to go in monday, or whatever your next working day is, and first thing apologize to your boss for acting like a dick.
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However, they cannot force me to work over time. I have to be willing to do so (and more often than not, willing to do so), and I was not willing to do so that day. I had an excuse, even though it was circumventable.
The fact that it is ultimately my choice by law, and the fact that the work in question could be characterized as mild-moderate harassment (We were going to go to peoples homes, knock on their door at 6pm on Saturday and ask them why they have not paid their bill), I really did not want to stay.
I did overreact. That's not incorrect, but that's not the sole (or even the main) issue.
And you are completely correct about undermining her authority and making her feel more self conscious about her managerial skills. Right on the fucking money. I shouldn't do that.
The fact remains that she is a poor manager, and I have no confidence in her at all really. I have covered her ass many times.
I was pretty much thrust into the reaction though, and my manager does this on purpose and has done so more than a couple times. It had been a long and stressful day for everyone (especially her I'm certain), and she just announces loudly, "Okay, no one gets to go home until we get xx amount of people to pay their bills".
That isn't right either.
I don't think that is great management skill.
No encouragement, just threats.
Everything is directly our fault. When people don't pay. When people don't rent. When people who do rent steal our things because we don't do credit checks and employ a very flawed reference system.
I suppose it could be argued that it's my job, but I didn't see it in any description I ever read or was told.
Also, they advertise paid sick days and I wasn't paid for those days even though I was injured from work related causes and not sick. I even had a doctors note.
I mean ultimately as I read this back to myself I realize that it's probably time for me to find something else.
I'm also supposed to get Benefits after 3 months. It's been nearly 6 and I still don't have them. I have submitted my information a couple times, but with more than enough time to get it done in an appropriate time frame.
All these things really add up you know.
Am I trying to justify my reaction? Yes.
Was I still wrong in doing that? Yes.
But it's really a lot to take. I'm not invincible.
another appropriate response - "Oh I'm sorry, I can't work overtime because I have prior obligations and I share a car. If I get at least a day's notice I can usually work around that if need be, but I need more notice than this next time... sorry"
However, my original point was that even if they cant fire you for refusal to work overtime, they can find just about any other reason to fire you if its really that big of an issue for them. My company has 2 months of "voluntary" 10h overtime per week every year, however, this is only really voluntary if you want to be fairly secure in having a job after the busy period. And while they wont tell you flat out "You didnt work enough overtime" because that would be illegal, theyll find some little fuckup you made, or say you show up late too often, or say youre absent too often, or any other thing that other people can slide on because they worked the extra time. And thats simply business, and theyre not a shitty company for doing it.
And hey, im not harping on you for your reaction. Your reaction is understandable. However, the problem comes from the point of view of the person you were directing your comments to. Thinking of my supervisors, there are some that would take it (relatively) well, and some that would hand me my pink slip right there.
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CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
I've found my answer.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH