I never really understood poverty as a defense for piracy. I managed to buy a decent number of games during grad school- a grand experiment in which I discovered that yes, it is indeed possible to live in Chicago on twelve grand a year.
Maybe not everyone lives in the US/UK/Germany/1st world country? My entire pay check could pay for 15 new games total, and my salary is almost twice the one an average person here gets.
That's about 150% of what I was living on, in one of the most expensive cities in the US :P
The thing about piracy that basically everyone forgets is that basically everyone who is pirating a game isn't going to go out and spend money on it. So you don't really lose many sales due to piracy because those people weren't going to be buying it anyway.
I never really understood poverty as a defense for piracy. I managed to buy a decent number of games during grad school- a grand experiment in which I discovered that yes, it is indeed possible to live in Chicago on twelve grand a year.
Maybe not everyone lives in the US/UK/Germany/1st world country? My entire pay check could pay for 15 new games total, and my salary is almost twice the one an average person here gets.
That's about 150% of what I was living on, in one of the most expensive cities in the US :P
The thing about piracy that basically everyone forgets is that basically everyone who is pirating a game isn't going to go out and spend money on it. So you don't really lose many sales due to piracy because those people weren't going to be buying it anyway.
But would they have if pirating wasn't available to them? It's impossible to say, of course.
But pirating games is so easy and you're virtually free from any risk of being caught by anyone with the authority to do anything to you. There's not a lot of reason not to pirate if all you want is to play some games. That really can't help. I'd imagine there are a lot of people that pirate and don't buy simply because it's so easy to get your hands on completely working versions of games off the internet at absolutely no cost. Would you steal if there was no chance of getting caught? You might not, but you're not everyone.
EDIT: I'm tired and my post was horribly worded so I rewrote it! Yay!
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ViscountalphaThe pen is mightier than the swordhttp://youtu.be/G_sBOsh-vyIRegistered Userregular
I think the main reason I didnt like SupCom was that I played it 5 years ago when it was called Total Anihilation. It is so similar in fact that I get nostalgia playing it.
You would think that he'd have learned to make the factions a little more different from each other this time around.
But I'll tell you, when I was playing the last mission of the UEF campaign it was just wall-to-wall warfare simultaneously organizing land, sea and air strikes in defense of the Black Sun installation, and it pretty much enamored me with the game.
Forged Alliance was more of the same, but they made things a bit cheesy in that half the time you get the "operation area expanded" message it means you're going to be attacked by a ridiculously large force in 30 seconds. Cheap way of doing things, and the new faction was still largely the same as the other three. I enjoyed the campaign, but I really wish the factions were more different.
Plus, despite being 5 years old, there's interface stuff that TA and Supcom have done that still haven't been implemented, especially with the allowance of unit and construction queing and ferry routes and things. Although I suppose that's more to do with the fact that in a game like TA or SupCom you're expected to field massive armies and bases with large maneuvers across the entire map space. In games like Company of Heroes, having a repeat unit construction queue would be pretty pointless.
Don't get me wrong, I love supcom and have 2 legitimate copies of it. I bought forged alliance too. I am just disappointed I get units in supcom that want to go up to the top of the map or freak out. I'm far too often telling my units "NO! YOU STUPID FUCKER DON'T DO THAT!" Forged alliance still shipped with glitches and bugs which were not as bad but still not great either.
The problem with PC gaming is that compared to console gaming, it is too expensive for what it is. Too expensive to develop for, too expensive to debug properly and too expensive for the home consumer to run at a reasonable framerate.
My two current gaming machines will likely be my last two given how PC gaming has gone. I may take the Hypocritic oath on that one though if they finally get the pc platform to get its shit together.
The thing about piracy that basically everyone forgets is that basically everyone who is pirating a game isn't going to go out and spend money on it. So you don't really lose many sales due to piracy because those people weren't going to be buying it anyway.
But would they have if pirating wasn't available to them? It's impossible to say, of course.
But pirating games is so easy and you're virtually free from any risk of being caught by anyone with the authority to do anything to you. There's not a lot of reason not to pirate if all you want is to play some games. That really can't help. I'd imagine there are a lot of people that pirate and don't buy simply because it's so easy to get your hands on completely working versions of games off the internet at absolutely no cost. Would you steal if there was no chance of getting caught? You might not, but you're not everyone.
EDIT: I'm tired and my post was horribly worded so I rewrote it! Yay!
The question shouldn't really be would you steal if you couldn't get caught. It really should be would you buy that game if you couldn't steal it?
Everytime some developer complains about piracy & pc game sales tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the developer sucks/their latest game wasn't worth it/pC gaming is fine you morons/pirates have to eat too/piracy actually helps pc sales you dolts/theyre just trying it before they buy it/a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Everytime some developer complains about piracy & pc game sales tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the developer sucks/their latest game wasn't worth it/pC gaming is fine you morons/pirates have to eat too/piracy actually helps pc sales you dolts/theyre just trying it before they buy it/a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Its all quite tiresome, really.
I dunno I think it's kind of an interesting look into human nature.
Everytime some developer complains about piracy & pc game sales tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the developer sucks/their latest game wasn't worth it/pC gaming is fine you morons/pirates have to eat too/piracy actually helps pc sales you dolts/theyre just trying it before they buy it/a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Its all quite tiresome, really.
Every time someone tries to complain that the state of PC gaming isn't utterly going down the tubes tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the console of your choice is inherently superior to all / pC gaming is dying you morons / you're just in denial you dolts / Unreal 3 was actually an incredible game / companies like Stardock and similar are only exceptions you shouldn't count them / a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Its all quite tiresome, really.
Woohoo! I could do this forever! Arguing on the internet is simple AND fun!
Look, I don't mean to make fun, but kindly debate with people about the points they put across, and don't just attack the handy strawman, nobody's met him.
Everytime some developer complains about piracy & pc game sales tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the developer sucks/their latest game wasn't worth it/pC gaming is fine you morons/pirates have to eat too/piracy actually helps pc sales you dolts/theyre just trying it before they buy it/a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Its all quite tiresome, really.
Every time someone tries to complain that the state of PC gaming isn't utterly going down the tubes tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the console of your choice is inherently superior to all / pC gaming is dying you morons / you're just in denial you dolts / Unreal 3 was actually an incredible game / companies like Stardock and similar are only exceptions you shouldn't count them / a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Its all quite tiresome, really.
Woohoo! I could do this forever! Arguing on the internet is simple AND fun!
Look, I don't mean to make fun, but kindly debate with people about the points they put across, and don't just attack the handy strawman, nobody's met him.
I like how you changed "some developers" to "someone" in your artful rebuttal.
I realise that this may seem like a bit of a tangential point, but still. The insulting, dismissive tone of the topic title is enough to warrant this.
Chris Taylor is a developer, and being a developer he knows more about the industry and the relative merits of all platforms and peripherals than Joe Internets. He isn't just a 13-year-old fanboy hopped up on alcoholic energy drinks, he knows his business and needs to be paid heed instead of dismissed out of hand.
It's not like he's alone, either. Cliff Bleszinski came out saying that the PC market is in disarray, and he and his games got shat on from a great height by PC faithful despite Epic's enduring work and history in the PC market. Whether the PC market is actually in disarray or whether demand for Epic's games on the PC is dwindling is besides the point - for daring to insinuate that the PC may not be the alpha and omega of gaming, he got shat on.
I think it's more than a little disingenuous to treat developers like heretics when they make statements like this. Talent goes where the money is, and the money is on consoles - would we prefer that developers of hardcore PC games die out as casual gaming redefines that space?
Re: Taylor: I agree and support his argument. Piracy is a huge issue on PC, as has been discussed (and oddly, defended) to death in this thread and KBAM is too finicky of a setup to survive in the lounge room (outside of a Phantom-esque lap board). I'd be interested in hearing how these points could be argued against (though I'm sure they've been gone over at least three times in the last ten or thirteen pages).
Everytime some developer complains about piracy & pc game sales tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the developer sucks/their latest game wasn't worth it/pC gaming is fine you morons/pirates have to eat too/piracy actually helps pc sales you dolts/theyre just trying it before they buy it/a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Its all quite tiresome, really.
Every time someone tries to complain that the state of PC gaming isn't utterly going down the tubes tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the console of your choice is inherently superior to all / pC gaming is dying you morons / you're just in denial you dolts / Unreal 3 was actually an incredible game / companies like Stardock and similar are only exceptions you shouldn't count them / a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Its all quite tiresome, really.
Woohoo! I could do this forever! Arguing on the internet is simple AND fun!
Look, I don't mean to make fun, but kindly debate with people about the points they put across, and don't just attack the handy strawman, nobody's met him.
I like how you changed "some developers" to "someone" in your artful rebuttal.
If I'm honest, that was actually a typo. IIRC Warren Spector said he didn't give a crap about piracy since those guys were never going to buy his game anyway, and got thoroughly lambasted for it. Be that as it may, I was trying to tell him to debate with people and arguments, not just go putting down strawmen. Unless you've actually seen someone here claim that "pirates need to eat too"? Arguing like that isn't having a discussion, it's just a way to make yourself feel smugly superior to the people you disagree with without actually trying to address any points made, valid or not.
I realise that this may seem like a bit of a tangential point, but still. The insulting, dismissive tone of the topic title is enough to warrant this.
I would tend to agree with this
Chris Taylor is a developer, and being a developer he knows more about the industry and the relative merits of all platforms and peripherals than Joe Internets. He isn't just a 13-year-old fanboy hopped up on alcoholic energy drinks, he knows his business and needs to be paid heed instead of dismissed out of hand.
It's not like he's alone, either. Cliff Bleszinski came out saying that the PC market is in disarray, and he and his games got shat on from a great height by PC faithful despite Epic's enduring work and history in the PC market. Whether the PC market is actually in disarray or whether demand for Epic's games on the PC is dwindling is besides the point - for daring to insinuate that the PC may not be the alpha and omega of gaming, he got shat on.
I think it's more than a little disingenuous to treat developers like heretics when they make statements like this. Talent goes where the money is, and the money is on consoles - would we prefer that developers of hardcore PC games die out as casual gaming redefines that space?
I would agree that some people crapped on him. I would also say that most of the people in this thread have refrained from doing a character assassination on him and have been trying to actually debate as to how the issue of piracy affects PC gaming and whether the PC as a gaming platform is no longer tenable, which is one of the debates that always crops up.
Re: Taylor: I agree and support his argument. Piracy is a huge issue on PC, as has been discussed (and oddly, defended) to death in this thread and KBAM is too finicky of a setup to survive in the lounge room (outside of a Phantom-esque lap board). I'd be interested in hearing how these points could be argued against (though I'm sure they've been gone over at least three times in the last ten or thirteen pages).
You said it, they've all been gone over. I've made whatever points I wanted to already. Feel free to look over the past few pages and get the general gist of the argument, I can't possibly go over everything that's been said already.
The thing about piracy that basically everyone forgets is that basically everyone who is pirating a game isn't going to go out and spend money on it. So you don't really lose many sales due to piracy because those people weren't going to be buying it anyway.
I've always seen that as a rather stupid rationalization. It is a lost sale. If a person is interested enough in a game to take the time to download it, they're interested enough in the game to actually go buy the damn thing.
Think about it: "I don't like this game it sucks! Why would I ever spend the money on this piece of shit? But I'm gonna be a greedy fuck and download it anyway."
That doesn't sound right.
There's obviously something about that particular game that made them decide to use some of their bandwidth to go get it. 4+ Gigs could obviously be better spent elsewhere if the guy really doesn't give enough of a shit about the game to actually pay the developers for their hard work.
Edit:
Unless of course, we're going to call a spade a spade and actually say Pirates are greedy, immoral little fucks.
Wanna know how bad piracy is? If you're not a Blizzard/Valve/an MMO, you're thinking about making a console port (at least) to make sure that your investment isn't flushed down the toilet.
For what it's worth, I think current gen console titles are ridiculously overpriced (if all I'm gonna get are 60$ AAA titles, I can list all the games I might buy 'at release' on one hand for the next two years: MGS, FF, GTA... uhhh.. and two more?) and that there needs to be a 40$ tier of games.
The farther the market expands away from the hardcore (who, ultimately, are going to be very willing to pirate and very difficult to stop), the easier it'll be for the industry to lower prices.
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Interesting GFW podcast today, you guys might want to listen since it's with Chris Taylor from Gaspowered and Josh (forget his last name, but one of the lead devs on CoH) from Relic.
They both talk about the piracy issue and say that it is an issue. I found some interesting talk around that though. In particuler Josh being called out on the fact that they're also limiting their audience with ridiculous system specs requirements, to which he pretty much agrees with and talks about how easy it is for devs to get enamoured with the whole culture of pushing the graphics, really interesting.
They also talk about the problem of the RTS becoming a niche market like the side-on fighter did, and increasing complexity in the genre, and how they want to avoid that.
One thing dropped near the end whilst Sean is geeking out over CoH (I'm sure he's wanted to do this for SO long ) was that like every other week they're still breaking the number of players online with the game, which is a really good indicator for them of the legs the series has. In general PC games tend to have longer legs (he basically mentions a "5 year plan" for CoH, and they're only in year 2), which is probably why they're intent on supporting it for such a long time.
Another really huge thing he dropped that I found interesting was that CoH is selling as well as they get out of Best Buy!
"And those are huge numbers."
He even bought his own copy of Opposing Fronts on Steam just because it was easy.
That really says a lot about the power of digital distribution and Steam.
I'd like to know how you intend to stop piracy, when one can just buy a copied version from international countries? And how you intend to stop one store owner from buying a copy and then making copies to sell at 5 bucks a peice. Piracy can never be stopped and never will.
And consoles still are effected by Piracy, heard of PS1 or PS2?
Frankly, while I never pirate console games, cause I like giving money to developers/sony nintendo, I have no qualms over downloading that RTS to try out. Usually doesn't appeal to me so I remove it. Demo's are good enough for me. Though I do buy Civilization games.
Yeah, After listening to that podcast, I have a bit less respect for chris taylor since rather than actually going into the reasons behind the console shift for his projects he basically just regurgitated all the canned PR points and kept talking about how great the 360 control is
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
edited February 2008
Fact: Piracy also exists on consoles.
Fact: The average layman has no earthly idea of how to do it on any system but the dreamcast, which is irrelevant at this point.
Just because you CAN pirate console games does not mean that the vast majority of console gamers are willing to put the time + energy into figuring it out. The sales numbers reflect this fairly well.
syndalis on
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Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Just my little joke. It's not as if it would have much of a market there anyway, with the average game lasting anywhere between 2 hours and 2 weeks . Irrespective of how you feel about console games, long-term games requiring a fair amount of dedication like that tend not to crop up in the console sphere as much, it's just the nature of the machine I guess.
I still feel it's pretty disingenuos to say your investment is "flushed down the toilet" simply because you're making a PC exclusive game.
Yeah, After listening to that podcast, I have a bit less respect for chris taylor since rather than actually going into the reasons behind the console shift for his projects he basically just regurgitated all the canned PR points and kept talking about how great the 360 control is
Well the reasons for the console shift are pretty obvious really: mo' moneh. That's not a bad thing, it's just business sense. Although like I said before, I have to wonder how well SupCom will do on the 360 when even C&C3 didn't do too well on the console, and SupCom doesn't have C&C's name recognition. I suppose it's worth exploring if there's a market there.
Anyway hee pretty much stated that he had no idea how much piracy there really was, and it was just "back of the napkin" guesswork at best. I found it interesting when he mentioned how many graphics cards are selling and compared that potential market to his game sales. Although I felt that was just slightly conceited of him, as if everyone with a graphics card that can run SupCom well is automatically interested in it. I like SupCom but even I'm willing to admit it's pretty niche game even for an RTS.
The other thing is, nVidia doesn't really make their money from high-end graphics cards. The mid-low range, chipsets etc are where the money piles in from.
Fact: The average layman has no earthly idea of how to do it on any system but the dreamcast, which is irrelevant at this point.
and the PSP, Xbox 1, and Nintendo DS.
But hey, whatever.
Really?
Exactly what I was thinking too. I'm not a layman and I have no idea how to go about pirating games on any system. Though I'm sure with 5 minutes of time I could find out how. I don't know maybe I'm crazy, but I want more games to come out so I support the companies that make games that interest me by you know buying them. Pirating hurts everyone in the end, especially if it becomes wide spread.
The other thing is, nVidia doesn't really make their money from high-end graphics cards. The mid-low range, chipsets etc are where the money piles in from.
Id love some sauce on this cause last I heard it was the opposite. I could be mistaken though but I was pretty sure their main revenue comes from their highest end stuff periodically.
Wow a lot of people really have their blinders on when it comes to piracy in this thread. Piracy has decimated the PC gaming market especially overseas. I know Gamestops that are opening in my fairly large city that don't even carry PC games any more. Really you think PC gaming is ok atm? Really? Piracy is a huge issue, don't kid yourself.
Fact: The average layman has no earthly idea of how to do it on any system but the dreamcast, which is irrelevant at this point.
and the PSP, Xbox 1, and Nintendo DS.
But hey, whatever.
Really?
Those are the consoles that don't require you to crack it open and use a soldering gun. Anyone who can find pirated games on the Internet can manage it, I assure you.
But when a shitty game comes out and the developer uses the excuse that piracy caused it to not sell we call them out on it.
Piracy is a convenient, unquantifiable get out clause that on one hand excuses your shitty game and on the other empathises with the community because you are portrayed as some kind of 'victim'
Thats bullshit.
Piracy is a huge issue. But good PC games still sell regardless. just not as well as they could have. I cant think of a single good Pc game which has had bad sales as a direct result of piracy. Its always the shitty ones.
Fact: The average layman has no earthly idea of how to do it on any system but the dreamcast, which is irrelevant at this point.
and the PSP, Xbox 1, and Nintendo DS.
But hey, whatever.
Really?
Those are the consoles that don't require you to crack it open and use a soldering gun. Anyone who can find pirated games on the Internet can manage it, I assure you.
Can, yes, but does that mean that the average layman realizes that? Probably not.
Wow a lot of people really have their blinders on when it comes to piracy in this thread. Piracy has decimated the PC gaming market especially overseas. I know Gamestops that are opening in my fairly large city that don't even carry PC games any more. Really you think PC gaming is ok atm? Really? Piracy is a huge issue, don't kid yourself.
Yeah, I heard this one time, someone pirated a game, and instantly game developers worldwide all had $1 jump out of their bank account.
Piracy is an issue, sure. But blaming piracy for the shitty state of pc gaming is pretty narrowminded. Buggy, incomplete and shoddy releases? retail games that are so fucking incomplete it's bloody obvious that the developer shoved it out the door with intent to patch later (if it sells well!)? For every console game that's ever crashed on me here were at least 3 or 4 dozen pc games I've played over the years that did the same and to a worst degree. When did the 'release now fix later' mentality become the norm? Shit. When was the last time you had to download hundreds of megs worth of patches for your console games? Can't say that I've ever had to.
And as stated earlier in the thread, if piracy is killing pc gaming then someone might want to tell companies like Blizzard. They seem to be too busy making quality games to notice.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
The other thing is, nVidia doesn't really make their money from high-end graphics cards. The mid-low range, chipsets etc are where the money piles in from.
Id love some sauce on this cause last I heard it was the opposite. I could be mistaken though but I was pretty sure their main revenue comes from their highest end stuff periodically.
I can't really speak to the profit margin, but it seems reasonable that most of the profit comes from the lower range. When a new chipset hits the manufacturing line, yields are usually in the low 30 percentile. As in, 2 out of 3 chips produced don't work. That's generally why you're paying $800 for the top end cards - they're making up the lost money from all the failed chips.
However, as lines are refined, yields go up. Prices drop and a lot more cards are sold. It gets cheaper and cheaper to produce the same card: I have no evidence to support this, but I bet manufacturing costs drop faster than retail prices. They can only sell the top end cards for prices the market will bear and I don't think the market will bear $1K video cards. They want to sell those cards, though, because they recoup costs on getting their next line of cards running so they have new mid-level cards to release without paying through the nose for it.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Wow a lot of people really have their blinders on when it comes to piracy in this thread. Piracy has decimated the PC gaming market especially overseas. I know Gamestops that are opening in my fairly large city that don't even carry PC games any more. Really you think PC gaming is ok atm? Really? Piracy is a huge issue, don't kid yourself.
Yeah, I heard this one time, someone pirated a game, and instantly game developers worldwide all had $1 jump out of their bank account.
I'd still like to see proof that piracy is more an issue in the PC market than is the type of games being sold. What were the top sellers? WoW and The Sims. Looks like the PC market has shifted to MMOs and casual games. Everything else is going console because people just aren't buying them like they used to.
Honestly, I think the rise of MMOs and DD has more to do with Gamestop not stocking PC games anymore than does piracy. WoW made me stop buying PC games for almost two years straight. Then I got my new computer, bought a bunch of games and still pretty much just play WoW on my PC. Anecdotal, lol, I know, but considering the time-sink factor of WoW, EVE, EQ, etc, a lot of gamers just focus on the one instead of spreading out their time across multiple games.
Exactly what I was thinking too. I'm not a layman and I have no idea how to go about pirating games on any system. Though I'm sure with 5 minutes of time I could find out how. I don't know maybe I'm crazy, but I want more games to come out so I support the companies that make games that interest me by you know buying them.
Exactly. I get my money's worth out of the games I buy these days. I can drop $60 easy on a weekend night out, and that lasts for only a few hours. I can, and have, logged anywhere from a couple of months (Dead Rising, Condemned) to over a year (Oblivion) on $60 games. It's a fair trade and I'm more than happy paying a developer for a quality product that I'll enjoy for a while.
I don't get the rationale for taking the time to figure out a way to get something for free that you should be paying for.
DRM gets all the bad press but my feelings are that coders and hackers are causing a lot of unneccessary problems for not only the PC gaming industry, but digital media management and distribution overall:
And as online communities become more and more expert at tackling consoles’ defences, the war against piracy continues to suffer from bad publicity. From the days of Don’t Copy That Floppy to the recent, largely unsuccessful, attempts to link piracy to more tangible forms of crime, the anti-piracy lobby has struggled to get its message across meaningfully, and recent news that trade bodies such as ELSPA in Europe
are cutting anti-piracy staff only serves to deepen the sense of defeat.
Yet even as the current generation suffers its first losses, their new online focus may prove a key factor in securing lasting victories. Services like Xbox Live and the PlayStation Network bring with them not only a powerful deterrent to piracy, but, perhaps more fittingly given the ambiguity many consumers feel on the subject, potential incentives to stay legal. Making it possible not only to own the means of distribution more completely, but also provide patches quicker to close any security gaps piracy and hacking may open, they also offer a faster, simpler, and potentially cheaper, delivery of content.
Alongside chip cost, the rise of processing speed, and the ever-growing monster that is the second hand market, piracy remains just one force affecting the games industry. But it is becoming increasingly influential in shaping not just the way that games are delivered and packaged, but the way publishers and developers may feel about backing riskier and more inventive material, knowing that some of the proceeds won’t be going into their own pockets.
And although many will argue that piracy remains a legitimate response to high prices and poor quality, anything that may one day significantly limit the creation of ambitious software must be some kind of crime.
Edit: added link for the Next-Gen article.
NexusSix on
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That's all most people are saying. An issue. Not the sole issue.
But blaming piracy for the shitty state of pc gaming is pretty narrowminded.
Nobody is saying that. But straw men have been set up and knocked down.
Buggy, incomplete and shoddy releases? retail games that are so fucking incomplete it's bloody obvious that the developer shoved it out the door with intent to patch later (if it sells well!)?
For every console game that's ever crashed on me here were at least 3 or 4 dozen pc games I've played over the years that did the same and to a worst degree.
Half the time I don't know if the crashing/bugs on my PC games are because of the game itself, or because I don't have the right or updated drivers installed, or the latest directx or windows patch or whatever the fuck.
When did the 'release now fix later' mentality become the norm? Shit. When was the last time you had to download hundreds of megs worth of patches for your console games? Can't say that I've ever had to.
It started to become the norm at around Quake 2's release. Around that time.
And as stated earlier in the thread, if piracy is killing pc gaming then someone might want to tell companies like Blizzard. They seem to be too busy making quality games to notice.
A lot of PC devs are chalking up poor PC games sales to the fact that a lot of PC gamers are just about only playing World of Warcraft (and the Sims, although that's EA).
Blizzard isn't worried because Blizzard is dominating PC gaming revenue. Plus, although WOW piracy is possible, I'm sure it loses most of its appeal in doing so.
Besides, blizzard is the exception rather than the rule. They have a long history of spending tons of time and resources on perfecting their games. Their stuff is like, staple of the industry stuff. There's no way StarCraft II will sell less than a few million copies.
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That's about 150% of what I was living on, in one of the most expensive cities in the US :P
I never asked for this!
edit: to Glal: nay, $50 for PC games, $60 for console games. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying but it's way past my bedtime.
But would they have if pirating wasn't available to them? It's impossible to say, of course.
But pirating games is so easy and you're virtually free from any risk of being caught by anyone with the authority to do anything to you. There's not a lot of reason not to pirate if all you want is to play some games. That really can't help. I'd imagine there are a lot of people that pirate and don't buy simply because it's so easy to get your hands on completely working versions of games off the internet at absolutely no cost. Would you steal if there was no chance of getting caught? You might not, but you're not everyone.
EDIT: I'm tired and my post was horribly worded so I rewrote it! Yay!
Don't get me wrong, I love supcom and have 2 legitimate copies of it. I bought forged alliance too. I am just disappointed I get units in supcom that want to go up to the top of the map or freak out. I'm far too often telling my units "NO! YOU STUPID FUCKER DON'T DO THAT!" Forged alliance still shipped with glitches and bugs which were not as bad but still not great either.
The problem with PC gaming is that compared to console gaming, it is too expensive for what it is. Too expensive to develop for, too expensive to debug properly and too expensive for the home consumer to run at a reasonable framerate.
My two current gaming machines will likely be my last two given how PC gaming has gone. I may take the Hypocritic oath on that one though if they finally get the pc platform to get its shit together.
The question shouldn't really be would you steal if you couldn't get caught. It really should be would you buy that game if you couldn't steal it?
I never asked for this!
Its all quite tiresome, really.
And new PC games cost $75US here (console and handheld games $90US).
I dunno I think it's kind of an interesting look into human nature.
I never asked for this!
Every time someone tries to complain that the state of PC gaming isn't utterly going down the tubes tons of internet know-it-alls sputter in outrage about how the console of your choice is inherently superior to all / pC gaming is dying you morons / you're just in denial you dolts / Unreal 3 was actually an incredible game / companies like Stardock and similar are only exceptions you shouldn't count them / a whole litany of completely tired excuses.
Its all quite tiresome, really.
Woohoo! I could do this forever! Arguing on the internet is simple AND fun!
Look, I don't mean to make fun, but kindly debate with people about the points they put across, and don't just attack the handy strawman, nobody's met him.
I like how you changed "some developers" to "someone" in your artful rebuttal.
I realise that this may seem like a bit of a tangential point, but still. The insulting, dismissive tone of the topic title is enough to warrant this.
Chris Taylor is a developer, and being a developer he knows more about the industry and the relative merits of all platforms and peripherals than Joe Internets. He isn't just a 13-year-old fanboy hopped up on alcoholic energy drinks, he knows his business and needs to be paid heed instead of dismissed out of hand.
It's not like he's alone, either. Cliff Bleszinski came out saying that the PC market is in disarray, and he and his games got shat on from a great height by PC faithful despite Epic's enduring work and history in the PC market. Whether the PC market is actually in disarray or whether demand for Epic's games on the PC is dwindling is besides the point - for daring to insinuate that the PC may not be the alpha and omega of gaming, he got shat on.
I think it's more than a little disingenuous to treat developers like heretics when they make statements like this. Talent goes where the money is, and the money is on consoles - would we prefer that developers of hardcore PC games die out as casual gaming redefines that space?
Re: Taylor: I agree and support his argument. Piracy is a huge issue on PC, as has been discussed (and oddly, defended) to death in this thread and KBAM is too finicky of a setup to survive in the lounge room (outside of a Phantom-esque lap board). I'd be interested in hearing how these points could be argued against (though I'm sure they've been gone over at least three times in the last ten or thirteen pages).
If I'm honest, that was actually a typo. IIRC Warren Spector said he didn't give a crap about piracy since those guys were never going to buy his game anyway, and got thoroughly lambasted for it. Be that as it may, I was trying to tell him to debate with people and arguments, not just go putting down strawmen. Unless you've actually seen someone here claim that "pirates need to eat too"? Arguing like that isn't having a discussion, it's just a way to make yourself feel smugly superior to the people you disagree with without actually trying to address any points made, valid or not.
I would tend to agree with this
I would agree that some people crapped on him. I would also say that most of the people in this thread have refrained from doing a character assassination on him and have been trying to actually debate as to how the issue of piracy affects PC gaming and whether the PC as a gaming platform is no longer tenable, which is one of the debates that always crops up.
You said it, they've all been gone over. I've made whatever points I wanted to already. Feel free to look over the past few pages and get the general gist of the argument, I can't possibly go over everything that's been said already.
I've always seen that as a rather stupid rationalization. It is a lost sale. If a person is interested enough in a game to take the time to download it, they're interested enough in the game to actually go buy the damn thing.
Think about it: "I don't like this game it sucks! Why would I ever spend the money on this piece of shit? But I'm gonna be a greedy fuck and download it anyway."
That doesn't sound right.
There's obviously something about that particular game that made them decide to use some of their bandwidth to go get it. 4+ Gigs could obviously be better spent elsewhere if the guy really doesn't give enough of a shit about the game to actually pay the developers for their hard work.
Edit:
Unless of course, we're going to call a spade a spade and actually say Pirates are greedy, immoral little fucks.
[edit] Oh please, 4 gigs of bandwidth? Maybe if you're on dial-up that actually means something.
Piracy involves the product developers wanted to be PAID FOR.
Big fucking difference.
For what it's worth, I think current gen console titles are ridiculously overpriced (if all I'm gonna get are 60$ AAA titles, I can list all the games I might buy 'at release' on one hand for the next two years: MGS, FF, GTA... uhhh.. and two more?) and that there needs to be a 40$ tier of games.
The farther the market expands away from the hardcore (who, ultimately, are going to be very willing to pirate and very difficult to stop), the easier it'll be for the industry to lower prices.
Pokemans D/P: 1289 4685 0522
They both talk about the piracy issue and say that it is an issue. I found some interesting talk around that though. In particuler Josh being called out on the fact that they're also limiting their audience with ridiculous system specs requirements, to which he pretty much agrees with and talks about how easy it is for devs to get enamoured with the whole culture of pushing the graphics, really interesting.
They also talk about the problem of the RTS becoming a niche market like the side-on fighter did, and increasing complexity in the genre, and how they want to avoid that.
One thing dropped near the end whilst Sean is geeking out over CoH (I'm sure he's wanted to do this for SO long
Another really huge thing he dropped that I found interesting was that CoH is selling as well as they get out of Best Buy!
"And those are huge numbers."
He even bought his own copy of Opposing Fronts on Steam just because it was easy.
That really says a lot about the power of digital distribution and Steam.
@ RedShell: Sins is coming to 360? AWESOME!
And consoles still are effected by Piracy, heard of PS1 or PS2?
Frankly, while I never pirate console games, cause I like giving money to developers/sony nintendo, I have no qualms over downloading that RTS to try out. Usually doesn't appeal to me so I remove it. Demo's are good enough for me. Though I do buy Civilization games.
Yeah, After listening to that podcast, I have a bit less respect for chris taylor since rather than actually going into the reasons behind the console shift for his projects he basically just regurgitated all the canned PR points and kept talking about how great the 360 control is
Fact: The average layman has no earthly idea of how to do it on any system but the dreamcast, which is irrelevant at this point.
Just because you CAN pirate console games does not mean that the vast majority of console gamers are willing to put the time + energy into figuring it out. The sales numbers reflect this fairly well.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
and the PSP, Xbox 1, and Nintendo DS.
But hey, whatever.
Just my little joke. It's not as if it would have much of a market there anyway, with the average game lasting anywhere between 2 hours and 2 weeks
I still feel it's pretty disingenuos to say your investment is "flushed down the toilet" simply because you're making a PC exclusive game.
Well the reasons for the console shift are pretty obvious really: mo' moneh. That's not a bad thing, it's just business sense. Although like I said before, I have to wonder how well SupCom will do on the 360 when even C&C3 didn't do too well on the console, and SupCom doesn't have C&C's name recognition. I suppose it's worth exploring if there's a market there.
Anyway hee pretty much stated that he had no idea how much piracy there really was, and it was just "back of the napkin" guesswork at best. I found it interesting when he mentioned how many graphics cards are selling and compared that potential market to his game sales. Although I felt that was just slightly conceited of him, as if everyone with a graphics card that can run SupCom well is automatically interested in it. I like SupCom but even I'm willing to admit it's pretty niche game even for an RTS.
Really?
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Exactly what I was thinking too. I'm not a layman and I have no idea how to go about pirating games on any system. Though I'm sure with 5 minutes of time I could find out how. I don't know maybe I'm crazy, but I want more games to come out so I support the companies that make games that interest me by you know buying them. Pirating hurts everyone in the end, especially if it becomes wide spread.
Id love some sauce on this cause last I heard it was the opposite. I could be mistaken though but I was pretty sure their main revenue comes from their highest end stuff periodically.
Those are the consoles that don't require you to crack it open and use a soldering gun. Anyone who can find pirated games on the Internet can manage it, I assure you.
But when a shitty game comes out and the developer uses the excuse that piracy caused it to not sell we call them out on it.
Piracy is a convenient, unquantifiable get out clause that on one hand excuses your shitty game and on the other empathises with the community because you are portrayed as some kind of 'victim'
Thats bullshit.
Piracy is a huge issue. But good PC games still sell regardless. just not as well as they could have. I cant think of a single good Pc game which has had bad sales as a direct result of piracy. Its always the shitty ones.
Can, yes, but does that mean that the average layman realizes that? Probably not.
In fact, no. No he doesn't.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Yeah, I heard this one time, someone pirated a game, and instantly game developers worldwide all had $1 jump out of their bank account.
And as stated earlier in the thread, if piracy is killing pc gaming then someone might want to tell companies like Blizzard. They seem to be too busy making quality games to notice.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
I can't really speak to the profit margin, but it seems reasonable that most of the profit comes from the lower range. When a new chipset hits the manufacturing line, yields are usually in the low 30 percentile. As in, 2 out of 3 chips produced don't work. That's generally why you're paying $800 for the top end cards - they're making up the lost money from all the failed chips.
However, as lines are refined, yields go up. Prices drop and a lot more cards are sold. It gets cheaper and cheaper to produce the same card: I have no evidence to support this, but I bet manufacturing costs drop faster than retail prices. They can only sell the top end cards for prices the market will bear and I don't think the market will bear $1K video cards. They want to sell those cards, though, because they recoup costs on getting their next line of cards running so they have new mid-level cards to release without paying through the nose for it.
I'd still like to see proof that piracy is more an issue in the PC market than is the type of games being sold. What were the top sellers? WoW and The Sims. Looks like the PC market has shifted to MMOs and casual games. Everything else is going console because people just aren't buying them like they used to.
Honestly, I think the rise of MMOs and DD has more to do with Gamestop not stocking PC games anymore than does piracy. WoW made me stop buying PC games for almost two years straight. Then I got my new computer, bought a bunch of games and still pretty much just play WoW on my PC. Anecdotal, lol, I know, but considering the time-sink factor of WoW, EVE, EQ, etc, a lot of gamers just focus on the one instead of spreading out their time across multiple games.
Exactly. I get my money's worth out of the games I buy these days. I can drop $60 easy on a weekend night out, and that lasts for only a few hours. I can, and have, logged anywhere from a couple of months (Dead Rising, Condemned) to over a year (Oblivion) on $60 games. It's a fair trade and I'm more than happy paying a developer for a quality product that I'll enjoy for a while.
I don't get the rationale for taking the time to figure out a way to get something for free that you should be paying for.
DRM gets all the bad press but my feelings are that coders and hackers are causing a lot of unneccessary problems for not only the PC gaming industry, but digital media management and distribution overall:
Next Gen Article:
Edit: added link for the Next-Gen article.
Ng Security Industries, Inc.
PRERELEASE VERSION-NOT FOR FIELD USE - DO NOT TEST IN A POPULATED AREA
-ULTIMA RATIO REGUM-
Nobody is saying that. But straw men have been set up and knocked down.
Half the time I don't know if the crashing/bugs on my PC games are because of the game itself, or because I don't have the right or updated drivers installed, or the latest directx or windows patch or whatever the fuck.
It started to become the norm at around Quake 2's release. Around that time.
A lot of PC devs are chalking up poor PC games sales to the fact that a lot of PC gamers are just about only playing World of Warcraft (and the Sims, although that's EA).
Blizzard isn't worried because Blizzard is dominating PC gaming revenue. Plus, although WOW piracy is possible, I'm sure it loses most of its appeal in doing so.
Besides, blizzard is the exception rather than the rule. They have a long history of spending tons of time and resources on perfecting their games. Their stuff is like, staple of the industry stuff. There's no way StarCraft II will sell less than a few million copies.
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