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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    MagicPrime wrote: »
    So can I make a kung-fu guy in an orange gi with spikey gold hair that uses all melee moves aside from one really powerful blue energy beam?

    Jesus Fucking Christ.

    I made my first character; spent a good two hours in the character creator. Logged in, and that is exactly the first thing I saw. It made me want to reach through the internet and strangle the douchenozzle playing it.

    Bad omen or something, eh?

    Let me be clear: I'm not bashing the game for being wholly awful. It does some things well. But it uses that WoW/WAR/LOTRO-style, spoke-and-hub quest system that all but eliminates the incentive to group (along with the instancing: think Guild Wars; each "zone" is public and has < 25 people in it), and just seems to load you down with these one-off missions that have no weight behind them... That's what I meant by WoW with spandex.

    Scooter's analogy to Tabula Rasa is spot on, though.

    The thing is with that style of quest is that the narrative (usually) suffers. In CoX, there was usually some quasi-interesting story. I could ignore it. Hell, I usually did. But it felt like I was doing stuff for a reason. ChO is feels like WoW, though; like I'm back in Westfall massacring boars so that some lunatic hag I have no motivation to care about and who lives in a cabin in the middle of a monster-infested field can make soup.

    s3rial one on
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    maraxus94maraxus94 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    So, uh, it sounds like they replaced a lot of what people complained about in CoX. How dare they!

    I don't know, it sounds pretty awesome to me, I like a lot of what you are all saying sucks.

    maraxus94 on
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    Cynic JesterCynic Jester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    maraxus94 wrote: »
    So, uh, it sounds like they replaced a lot of what people complained about in CoX. How dare they!

    I don't know, it sounds pretty awesome to me, I like a lot of what you are all saying sucks.

    Okay, let me rephrase it for you.

    It's like WoW. Only it sucks.

    It doesn't suck because it is like WoW. It sucks because it is badly implemented and has none of the polish that WoW displays.

    Cynic Jester on
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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I can only think of three main complaints I've heard about CoX (without getting into nitpicks): repetitive instances, slow leveling, and lack of loot. The 'slow' leveling doesn't mean all that much when you consider CoX isn't an end-game based game and there's nothing there, but in any case, it's hard to compare without actually playing through the entire game. All I can say is it has 40 levels and you can hit 6 in the tutorial without going much out of your way.

    As for loot, ChO's current system is...not thrilling. You can't use much at once and there's no visual aspect. Loot lovers have more to love in CoX's invention system. And as for repetitive instances, the solution is not to remove instances altogether. Given the choice I'd rather have the repetition.

    I know it's all different strokes, but I really hate WoW-style questing. Always wandering around outside, trying to make sure that another spawn doesn't run into you or spawn on top of you when you're distracted, waiting in line with other players for the one specific type of enemy mob or mish objective to respawn, killing X number of mobs with y% chance of dropping one of the z things you need. When ChO gave me a mission to go hunt down 10 wolves I may have actually screamed in disbelief.

    Scooter on
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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Well, personally, I'm of the mindset that being like WoW makes things suck. If only because WoW is so painfully generic that the only allure is the staggering amount of polish only Blizzard (and maybe a couple others) can really put on the game.

    That quest model where you run around doing mindless quests by yourself for 95% of the game, then grind instances for the last 5%? Not my thing. I guess I can see why people would like it, or like being able to solo, but if I wanted a single player game, there are many better options than a MMO.

    EDIT: Also, fuck loot. Fuck it right in its stupid ass. Loot systems could be done well, but I've never seen it. They usually breakdown to A) OLOL HAY HAVE FUN WITH THIS STAGGERING MOUNTAIN OF BULLSHIT THAT HAS NO PURPOSE OTHER THAN TO TAKE UP INVENTORY SPACE and B) HAVE FUN WITH THIS INVENTORY SYSTEM THAT HASN'T BEEN IMPROVED SINCE THE ORIGINAL EVERQUEST.

    I mean, at least WoW has UI addons that make the inventory not suck. In LotRO (and *ahem* other games), the inventory system feels like punishment for wanting to play.

    EDIT 2: Scooter, at least in my case, I never felt that the leveling in CoX was too slow so much as I feel the rate of tangible advancement is too slow. They could absolutely double the amount of time it took to go from 1-50 and receive no complaint from me if they increased the rate at which I got new powers and whatnot. Going 6 levels pre-Stamina just to piss away your power choices on Swift -> Health -> Stamina wasn't cool at all, though.

    s3rial one on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    y'all are bitching about a MMORPG

    being a MMORPG

    and being devoted to well-established tropes in the genre

    seems so backwards to me

    it's like every new MMORPG that comes out, people are expecting some kind of breath-taking new gaming experience that will transcend all expectations

    i mean jesus christ, look at the TOR thread on this forum for this shit

    it's a vidya game. it incorporates a lot of things from WoW (the most successful MMORPG in existence) and City of Heroes (the only other super-hero MMORPG and essentially the father of Champions Online)

    i think, bugs and balance issues aside, it does these things just fine and most of my own complaints of the game amount to stuff like "this power framework blows, it needs to be rebalanced" or "this enemy for this mission doesn't spawn often enough".

    so, numbers issues. the sort of thing a beta is supposed to put the squeeze on and fix.

    some people are really whining about auto-attacks, for example. yes, this game has an auto-attack. for the one endurance-building basic power every character has. what would you rather have? constantly having to spam "11111111" to build endurance while also using your keyboard to circle-strafe? no fucking thank you, sir.

    i'd rather press 1 once, concentrate on moving and blocking, and then use my other keys to shoot off my five other attacks as i get the endurance for them or they cool off.

    if you are just walking up to a mob and pressing 1 for auto-attack and just standing there while he wails on you and you slowly pick at his life bar with your basic attack, you are playing the game incorrectly.

    move. block. use your other attacks for christ's sake.

    it's complaints like these that make me cast a glower at y'all

    if your primary gripe about this game boils down to "it doesn't live up to my expectations" or "it plays too much like WoW", well, I suggest that A) Maybe MMORPGs just aren't for you and B) maybe you should stop having unreasonable expectations from a video game

    Pony on
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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Yes, I've been playing MMORPGs for 5 and a half years because I hate them all.

    I have no complaints with the combat system itself, and run-n-gun is one of the few advantages I'd say this has over CoX. My issues are with how the game presents its content, and whether or not it has enough of it.

    Also, I believe the only thing ChO has inherited from CoX is the chargen. Nothing at all else feels like CoX to me.

    Scooter on
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    Cynic JesterCynic Jester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    No, see, the auto-attack end building bullshit is easily fixed by making endurance, i don't know, build, without an endbuilder attack that looks and feels about as heroic as wiping my ass. Combat in ChO is awesome, and looks cool, except my guy is constantly using this shitty shitty attack that looks like crap. Granted, I haven't tried *every* framework, but those I have tried all suffer from a shitty looking end builder.

    Of course, if the only other way they could solve it was by having us press 1, sure, make it auto attack. But it is not the only way they could have solved it, and it annoys me to no end that they chose the solution they did.

    Cynic Jester on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    well, scoots, what's the highest you've gotten to thus far?

    i've got a level 18 dude and pretty consistently through-out the levels i've had 3-5 quests on the go at any time.

    i team a lot and share my quests if people are interested, but i've also done a fair bit of soloing and that's been enjoyable too.

    to be perfectly honest, if i have to choose between CoH's approach to missions (instances for everything that isn't "Defeat 10 Outcasts") and ChO's (almost all quests are open-world and instances are for boss-fights and special things) I will take ChO's hands-down.

    Champions unabashedly uses WoW's quest structure. I'm fine with that, since WoW's quest structure isn't something I have a problem with. If you do, well, I can see how that would be annoying.

    in terms of content presentation, Champions does a lot of other interesting things in how you acquire and complete quests. but explaining that stuff goes well outside the NDA so whatever.

    Pony on
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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I did two people to 12-ish, one for each branch, then they reset it. I haven't played since cause I've done that intro so many times I couldn't sit through it again for a good while.

    The number of quests I have at once isn't a factor, 2, 20, whatever. My biggest issue is that, while some of the quests may be interesting, I haven't been able to enjoy a single one because most of my effort is focused on not aggroing nearby spawns and wasting time in the best case or dying and failing the mish in the worst. There's just too much danger, no time to focus on the mission, just kill em kill em kill em oh hey did we win the mission yet?

    Edit: When I question the amount of content an MMO has, what I mean is, how many alts can I play with this without repeating all the content to boredom? I never bought LotRO and TR because the answer for those was "1". CoH was probably a good "4-5" and similar for WoW. Right now my impression with ChO is "2". Which is low for me.

    Scooter on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Scooter wrote: »
    I did two people to 12-ish, one for each branch, then they reset it. I haven't played since cause I've done that intro so many times I couldn't sit through it again for a good while.

    The number of quests I have at once isn't a factor, 2, 20, whatever. My biggest issue is that, while some of the quests may be interesting, I haven't been able to enjoy a single one because most of my effort is focused on not aggroing nearby spawns and wasting time in the best case or dying and failing the mish in the worst. There's just too much danger, no time to focus on the mission, just kill em kill em kill em oh hey did we win the mission yet?

    Edit: When I question the amount of content an MMO has, what I mean is, how many alts can I play with this without repeating all the content to boredom? I never bought LotRO and TR because the answer for those was "1". CoH was probably a good "4-5" and similar for WoW. Right now my impression with ChO is "2". Which is low for me.

    that's understandable, and i agree with you on content for alts

    my preferred way to play a MMORPG is to "finish" a character. play through the game, get to the max level, tweak my gear a bit, and then start over with an alt.

    that's what turns me off from WoW more than anything else. WoW is built around getting to the endgame as fast as possible and then doing raids and grinding rep and all that. when they make expansions for it, they just raise the level cap and add content for the space between the old cap and the new cap.

    correct me if i'm wrong here, WoW players, but when was the last time they added content for characters level 20-25?

    that's my primary gripe with WoW, because the whole "get to the end so you can start playing the game" thing isn't my style

    it remains to be seen whether Champions will have enough content to satisfy the way i would prefer to play, and if/when they add expansions, whether those expansions will be end-game only or will be for lower level alts to enjoy too.

    but i remain hopeful. my intention with my current playtesting is to get a character up to the level where the Nemesis stuff starts, because it intrigues me and i really want to try it out

    i will say one angry negative thing about Champions, though

    let us skip the tutorial, please.

    god damn they gotta do that.

    just let us skip the tutorial and drop us off in one of the crisis zones at like, level 6. that'd be good

    Pony on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I thought one of the most annoying things about CoX was how hard it is to find teams. You never have the experience of fighting some guys, seeing another hero fighting the same guys, and saying "we should team up!" a la all sorts of comicbook scenarios.

    I think this is sort of what they wanted to do with the danger (or havoc, or whatever they are) zones, but unfortunately, no one actually goes to those zones. Which leaves teams to be forced by loitering around broadcast in whatever the level-appropriate zone is, or whispering people randomly off the /find list. And now that the game's population is significantly smaller and higher leveled than it was in i4, this has become a real problem.

    So if CO's system makes it easier to find a couple people and team up for a few quests I am pretty much 100% in favor of it.

    General lack of content is a problem, but it seems like a problem that most every MMO has at the beginning, so that can maybe be forgiven to some extent.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Pony wrote: »
    correct me if i'm wrong here, WoW players, but when was the last time they added content for characters level 20-25?

    20-25? I don't think they ever have, aside from holiday content which has stuff for all levels. Well, and heirloom items. They did add in new 1-20 areas and renovated the level 35-ish Dustwallow zone, to help smooth out leveling, but I don't think anyone has had any issues with levels 20-25.
    my preferred way to play a MMORPG is to "finish" a character. play through the game, get to the max level, tweak my gear a bit, and then start over with an alt.
    I find this an incredibly odd way to play an MMO. If I'm going to be paying a monthly fee, I want my time and money that I put into it to be going to the development of something. Typically it's my main character. I have trouble even just casually playing alts because I'm constantly thinking "I could be spending this time to make my main better."

    If I'm not looking to continually improve a single character, indefinitely, then why pay a monthly fee? What's the draw of an MMO then? If you're just going to hit the level cap, futz around a bit, and then make an alt, why not just go play Fallout 3 or Oblivion and save yourself $15 a month.

    Then again I have absolutely no drive to play WoW anymore, so maybe the alt thing is the way to go. :D

    Undead Scottsman on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Pony wrote: »
    correct me if i'm wrong here, WoW players, but when was the last time they added content for characters level 20-25?

    20-25? I don't think they ever have, aside from holiday content which has stuff for all levels. Well, and heirloom items. They did add in new 1-20 areas and renovated the level 35-ish Dustwallow zone, to help smooth out leveling, but I don't think anyone has had any issues with levels 20-25.
    my preferred way to play a MMORPG is to "finish" a character. play through the game, get to the max level, tweak my gear a bit, and then start over with an alt.
    I find this an incredibly odd way to play an MMO. If I'm going to be paying a monthly fee, I want my time and money that I put into it to be going to the development of something. Typically it's my main character. I have trouble even just casually playing alts because I'm constantly thinking "I could be spending this time to make my main better."

    If I'm not looking to continually improve a single character, indefinitely, then why pay a monthly fee? What's the draw of an MMO then? If you're just going to hit the level cap, futz around a bit, and then make an alt, why not just go play Fallout 3 or Oblivion and save yourself $15 a month.

    Then again I have absolutely no drive to play WoW anymore, so maybe the alt thing is the way to go. :D

    see, this is a mindset i don't understand. Not only do you have a completely different view on the subject to my own, you even go so far as to question why I would play a MMORPG in the first place.

    the way I see it, if the purpose of a MMORPG is just to play your "main" and constantly level and gear them up, what's the sense in having multiple character slots? why have more than one class and race combination? if everyone's going to be playing the exact same content the exact same way, and only once each, you really don't need as much in terms of variety.

    it also means you burn out on MMORPGs quicker, if you play it that way, because you grind the shit out of your main and unless there's a constant stream of new content, you end up saying "bored now" and quitting because you don't want to go through all that content all over again with an alt.

    that's why, for me, end-game content is way less important than content for every level before that. and that needs to be improved and added to as the game continues on, so that people have the incentive to make new characters and play through new content.

    to be perfectly frank, i hate the idea of end-game focused MMORPGs. hate it. it's basically telling me to ignore all pre-end-game content because it doesn't matter and the game doesn't really "begin" until you hit the level cap.

    and all your buddies are already at the cap and don't want to make alts to play with you

    and you can never find teams your level because everybody is trying to PL to the end-game.

    i just don't see how that's fun

    Pony on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    WoW has periodically changed or updated specific lower level areas, it's just that no one spends that much time thinking about it because you don't spend that much time in those areas.

    How is what you're talking about any different from an 'endgame-focused' MMO? Content is either new or it isn't, and you might as well at it all at the end so that people don't have to roll new alts to play it.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I thought one of the most annoying things about CoX was how hard it is to find teams. You never have the experience of fighting some guys, seeing another hero fighting the same guys, and saying "we should team up!" a la all sorts of comicbook scenarios.

    I think this is sort of what they wanted to do with the danger (or havoc, or whatever they are) zones, but unfortunately, no one actually goes to those zones. Which leaves teams to be forced by loitering around broadcast in whatever the level-appropriate zone is, or whispering people randomly off the /find list. And now that the game's population is significantly smaller and higher leveled than it was in i4, this has become a real problem.

    So if CO's system makes it easier to find a couple people and team up for a few quests I am pretty much 100% in favor of it.

    General lack of content is a problem, but it seems like a problem that most every MMO has at the beginning, so that can maybe be forgiven to some extent.

    ChO's system doesn't make it any easier to find teams. If anything, it makes it more difficult.

    CoX actually has a pretty good LFG tool. The problem is that the game never really introduces people to it, so relatively few people use it. Instead, they spam the local broadcast channel with "lvl x so-and-so lft," which is far less effective than using the tool.

    That's the thing about ChO's quest structure, though: it's like WoW, or LotRO, or WAR. There's no incentive to group. With CoX, the mission system and having sidekicks makes it pretty trivial to pick up someone, even if they're nowhere near the same level, and have them run through a mission for which they get a reward.

    This is compared to a system like, oh, let's use WoW for example: players are bogged down in tons of little quests, many of which have prerequisites. Players don't get rewards for completing other players' quests, and frequently can't make use of the quest share system because they either aren't at the exact same place in the quest chain, or they've already done that quest. The result is that grouping actually reduces the net reward. It's like the system is actively hostile to grouping.

    In the end, you wind up with a game where players rarely ever group. When they do group, it's usually just long enough to kill 20 boars or something of that nature. That quest model sucks. Especially because you get to the end-game, and then it's GEAR RAID REP GRIND GEAR RAID REP GRIND, etc, etc.

    EDIT: Like I told Gear... all I want is Marvel: Ultimate Alliance: The MMO. That would be like all the great parts of CoX distilled. ChO is nothing like that.

    s3rial one on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ChO does pretty much have the exact same problems as WoW when it comes to missions, as s3rial just pointed out.

    ChO's missions system, with some interesting exceptions (NPCs that spawn and find you to give you a quest, for example), is identical to WoW's.

    The whole "you can't share this quest with your party because they aren't at that point in the arc" problem persists in ChO exactly as it does in WoW's.

    but it doesn't bother me too terribly, really. I tend to start teams up when I see people in the same area hunting the same NPCs I am for probably the same reason. We'll team up, deal with that, and then go our seperate ways.

    if it's outright impossible for me to find a team or put one together (which has yet to happen thus far for me) soloing is still a valid way to play the game, because i built a generalist instead of going straight for a tank or support build.

    so, yes, it's an unoriginal and flawed system they took wholesale from World of Warcraft, but it works okay.

    i have already decided i am going to purchase the game, finances permitting, and unless they take the "level treadmill" approach WoW does to new content, I will keep playing.

    Pony on
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    Paradox ControlParadox Control Master MC Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Yeah thats what I enjoy about WoW. You get a character to end game, and you don't stop having stuff to do. I like the idea of progress changing from gaining levels, to go gaining gear to make your character better.

    Paradox Control on
    \
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    yeah, I'm not seeing the problem with adding more content at the level cap instead of at lower levels.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Every time WoW adds a new end-game raid, and nothing else, it creates an experience where being level 25 is bullshit. By only dumping new content onto the end of a game, the game quickly becomes "get to level 70 NOW," which raises the question of why levels 1-69 even exist. They're not something to be played, they're something to get past.


    CoX has a little of this, but they do a good job of mixing it up both with (auto)exemplaring and the Ouroboros system, so they can put content in wherever they like, and people can play it. =

    Narbus on
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    Paradox ControlParadox Control Master MC Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    The 1-79 levels are for you to learn your damn class. Thats how I see it. More experienced people are not going to want to do that, which I'm sure there going to change eventually. DKs were just a test. I willing to bet all classes get the lvl 55 + starting zones eventually. Thats also why they put in the RAF program. I would much rather wade through shit leveling a new character knowing that theres a lot to do at the end game, then do a bunch of content leveling, only to find out the end game doesn't have a lot to offer. BUT NEXT WEEK YOU GET NEW SHIT AT LEVEL 20! Great, what dose that do for me, the person with a lvl 80 character? Nothing. Its about keeping players long term, thats what adding content to the end game is. People are not going to want to stick with a game where the idea is you don't commit to a character, but instead re-roll characters because all the "new" content comes in the middle of the game.

    Paradox Control on
    \
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    OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    You know, you can enjoy the low level content and the high level content in WoW.

    They're not mutually exclusive.

    It's not like raids have an expiry date other than the next big expansion.

    Oats on
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    devoirdevoir Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    The 1-79 levels are for you to learn your damn class. Thats how I see it. More experienced people are not going to want to do that, which I'm sure there going to change eventually. DKs were just a test. I willing to bet all classes get the lvl 55 + starting zones eventually. Thats also why they put in the RAF program. I would much rather wade through shit leveling a new character knowing that theres a lot to do at the end game, then do a bunch of content leveling, only to find out the end game doesn't have a lot to offer. BUT NEXT WEEK YOU GET NEW SHIT AT LEVEL 20! Great, what dose that do for me, the person with a lvl 80 character? Nothing. Its about keeping players long term, thats what adding content to the end game is. People are not going to want to stick with a game where the idea is you don't commit to a character, but instead re-roll characters because all the "new" content comes in the middle of the game.

    Actually, you'd be wrong. Blizzard have stated that it's highly likely that all new classes will start at level 1, as they plan to go back through Azeroth and improve the levelling experience. The RAF program was put in a) as a cashgrab, b) to alleviate the problem in the interim.

    devoir on
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    NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    The 1-79 levels are for you to learn your damn class.

    I am not willing to play 79 levels of tutorial.

    Narbus on
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    BlueDestinyBlueDestiny Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Pony I have basically the exact same opinion as you. I hit 80 in WoW FINALLY and my reward is I get to either kill mobs for weeks for more gear to kill mobs for weeks for more gear to kill masdfjkaksdm. Or I could PvP and get assraped by people in full Arena gear for a few weeks until I beat enough people with crappy gear to get enough honor and arena points to get started on the PvP gear treadmill.

    Now, I wouldn't have a problem with killing mobs for gear if it was actually fun. Which it isn't, to me. I acknowledge that WoW has a pretty good combat system compared to other MMO's like CoX, but it's still just standing in one spot and hitting 4-5 buttons ad naseum (2 or 3 if you macro). The thing that appeals to me with ChO is that I get to fly, jump, run and otherwise manuever around while fighting. The block feature is pretty cool too and rewards people who pay attention. I also like how attacks have different firing methods, from toggling on autoattacks to chargin lazors and single press attacks that have combo animations. One character could fire about 3 different attacks all at once in emergencies, draining the entire end bar and turbomurdering the target 3 times over.

    BlueDestiny on
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I don't mind the WoW style quest system, as outlined above by people, because even in MMOs I want to spend time fucking around in the game by myself. Having people online in a guild to talk to is enough to fill the experience most of the time. And the content was doable by yourself, with the occasional group quest or dungeon. That's good for me.

    CoX annoys the piss out of me in that regard. Doing shit by yourself is so painstakingly slow. Yeah, it's cool that you can group at whatever level, whatever point in arcs. But then you don't get to play at your own pace anymore, you have to play at everyone else's HURRY THE SHIT UP WE GOTTA FUCK SHIT UP FOR RELICS or whatever. Unless that is your pace. Then whatever.

    Henroid on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Well, first of all, I'd just like to say I wasn't knocking the concept of alts (I brought it up as an example of how much I prefer growing my main character). While I personally don't like not playing my main, I can see why others would swap between a few alts; the thing is, I would imagine they would bring these alts to the end-game experience alongside their main. What I'm having trouble understanding is this idea of paying $15 a month, and putting a ton of time and effort into a character, only to dump it when he stops leveling, and start from scratch.

    I mean, I can understand just not playing anymore, but eschewing the endgame content to repeat the low-level content again and again seems strange to me. At least with endgame content you can continue to build something. I can't imagine getting any satisfaction over having a big list of alts that I'm never going to play again because they're level-capped.

    Basically, if I'm going to retread content, I at least want to reach new heights because of it, rather than repeat the beginning part of the journey. 'course at this point, I'd probably just hit the level cap, consider the game "beat' and just flat out unsubscribe.

    Undead Scottsman on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    and what this page of this thread shows you, folks, is that it is impossible to please everybody when you design a MMORPG, because you have different groups of people who want completely different things from the game itself

    Pony on
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    devoirdevoir Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Pony wrote: »
    and what this page of this thread shows you, folks, is that it is impossible to please everybody when you design a MMORPG, because you have different groups of people who want completely different things from the game itself

    Smart man. Hopefully everyone else will realise this.

    devoir on
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Pony wrote: »
    and what this page of this thread shows you, folks, is that it is impossible to please everybody when you design a MMORPG, because you have different groups of people who want completely different things from the game itself

    If anything, this is why I've taken a lot of feedback about ChO with a grain of salt. Two grains even.

    Henroid on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Before I got into the beta, I was really not that interested in Champions. I was basing my views on the negative opinions of people posting here.

    Now that I've gotten the chance to play it for a few weeks, I'm basically sold.

    Does that mean it's a great game? Maybe not for you, but it certainly is for me.

    MMORPGs are a really subjective genre. What I consider a good point, someone else considers a serious issue to be "fixed". The viewpoints that any large group of people have on this genre of gaming is incredibly divisive. There's no "solution" to it because what some people like, I hate, and vice versa. You can't please everyone with a MMORPG, even all MMORPG fans, because the things that people want from the game sometimes becomes mutually exclusive concepts.

    If you are interested in this game, I hope you get into the beta because the NDA-smothered opinions of the rest of us really isn't going to convey to you properly if you think it's a good game or not.

    Pony on
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I probably won't make it into the beta and I'm not too worried. I'm prepared to pay for the game to give it a fair shake for a month before paying the monthly fee.

    Henroid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Narbus wrote: »
    The 1-79 levels are for you to learn your damn class.

    I am not willing to play 79 levels of tutorial.

    Man how is it tutorial? There is content there, and a lot of it is pretty well done. I just don't see the point, when you devote time to adding new content, of putting some of it in the lower level range as opposed to putting it at the end. The end is where the majority of your players will be before long, and there is already so much content in the low level part of the game that you can't feasibly do it all on one character anyway.

    Don't want to make the argument entirely about WoW, just saying I don't see the point of games adding more content in the early levels once there is enough to comfortably get through them.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It was Paradox who suggested that the first 79 levels in WoW were tutorial, I simply noted such game design is bad.

    I just don't like the notion of something in the game to be there simply to hate doing. I think that all of the game should be fun, even if it's not fun in the same way as the later bits of the game, and that the idea of "oh, if i can only get past 79 levels then I can finally play this game!" is a silly one.

    Which brings me back to my crusade to point out that "levels" in an MMO is quickly becoming an outdated concept.

    Narbus on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Narbus wrote: »
    The 1-79 levels are for you to learn your damn class.

    I am not willing to play 79 levels of tutorial.

    Man how is it tutorial? There is content there, and a lot of it is pretty well done. I just don't see the point, when you devote time to adding new content, of putting some of it in the lower level range as opposed to putting it at the end. The end is where the majority of your players will be before long, and there is already so much content in the low level part of the game that you can't feasibly do it all on one character anyway.

    Don't want to make the argument entirely about WoW, just saying I don't see the point of games adding more content in the early levels once there is enough to comfortably get through them.

    And, this is the kind of viewpoint which is in direct opposition to my own. No game can really cater to both of us (unless they had the resources to make content for all levels of play on a steady basis, but that's a fantasy land of fairy blowjobs and unicorns that shit gold) because what we want from the game are mutually exclusive concepts.

    It is my hope that in choosing who to cater to, ChO caters to people like me over people like you. No offense, I don't think your viewpoints are "wrong", but they're directly against mine and I hope that a game I want to play sides with my views.

    Pony on
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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    devoir wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    and what this page of this thread shows you, folks, is that it is impossible to please everybody when you design a MMORPG, because you have different groups of people who want completely different things from the game itself

    Smart man. Hopefully everyone else will realise this.

    To what end?

    I mean, is acknowledging that people have differing opinions something that really needs to be a point of contention? It's kind of a given, don't you think?

    Frankly, it's pretty insulting to think that people don't know that.

    s3rial one on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Pony wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Narbus wrote: »
    The 1-79 levels are for you to learn your damn class.

    I am not willing to play 79 levels of tutorial.

    Man how is it tutorial? There is content there, and a lot of it is pretty well done. I just don't see the point, when you devote time to adding new content, of putting some of it in the lower level range as opposed to putting it at the end. The end is where the majority of your players will be before long, and there is already so much content in the low level part of the game that you can't feasibly do it all on one character anyway.

    Don't want to make the argument entirely about WoW, just saying I don't see the point of games adding more content in the early levels once there is enough to comfortably get through them.

    And, this is the kind of viewpoint which is in direct opposition to my own. No game can really cater to both of us (unless they had the resources to make content for all levels of play on a steady basis, but that's a fantasy land of fairy blowjobs and unicorns that shit gold) because what we want from the game are mutually exclusive concepts.

    It is my hope that in choosing who to cater to, ChO caters to people like me over people like you. No offense, I don't think your viewpoints are "wrong", but they're directly against mine and I hope that a game I want to play sides with my views.

    I guess I don't understand what it is that you want, then.

    Is it just the 'level up!' cookie? Content is content, it doesn't matter to me that much whether it falls at the beginning or middle or end of the process of getting from level 1 to whatever the max level is.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    devoirdevoir Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    s3rial one wrote: »
    devoir wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    and what this page of this thread shows you, folks, is that it is impossible to please everybody when you design a MMORPG, because you have different groups of people who want completely different things from the game itself

    Smart man. Hopefully everyone else will realise this.

    To what end?

    I mean, is acknowledging that people have differing opinions something that really needs to be a point of contention? It's kind of a given, don't you think?

    Frankly, it's pretty insulting to think that people don't know that.

    Because people are trying to convince other people that their way of playing a game, for entertainment, is wrong. And that's insulting.

    devoir on
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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    devoir wrote: »
    s3rial one wrote: »
    devoir wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    and what this page of this thread shows you, folks, is that it is impossible to please everybody when you design a MMORPG, because you have different groups of people who want completely different things from the game itself

    Smart man. Hopefully everyone else will realise this.

    To what end?

    I mean, is acknowledging that people have differing opinions something that really needs to be a point of contention? It's kind of a given, don't you think?

    Frankly, it's pretty insulting to think that people don't know that.

    Because people are trying to convince other people that their way of playing a game, for entertainment, is wrong. And that's insulting.
    A lot of this stems from people being disabused of incorrect notions of what this game is about. For example, Blue Destiny's talking about maneuvering during combat. Well, you can't do that in ChO to any significant degree. It's comparable to CoX now, and certainly pails in comparison to maneuverability before CoX added suppression. And when part of the big draw of a game is the multiplayer aspect, it's pretty stupid to then play cheer-leader for the WoW-based quest model, when it only serves to reduce grouping compared to, say, the model they designed six years ago for their last game.

    Beyond that, I'm not seeing what you're talking about. There's a lot of misinformation that could stand to be corrected, though.

    s3rial one on
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    BlueDestinyBlueDestiny Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    s3rial one wrote: »
    devoir wrote: »
    s3rial one wrote: »
    devoir wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    and what this page of this thread shows you, folks, is that it is impossible to please everybody when you design a MMORPG, because you have different groups of people who want completely different things from the game itself

    Smart man. Hopefully everyone else will realise this.

    To what end?

    I mean, is acknowledging that people have differing opinions something that really needs to be a point of contention? It's kind of a given, don't you think?

    Frankly, it's pretty insulting to think that people don't know that.

    Because people are trying to convince other people that their way of playing a game, for entertainment, is wrong. And that's insulting.
    A lot of this stems from people being disabused of incorrect notions of what this game is about. For example, Blue Destiny's talking about maneuvering during combat. Well, you can't do that in ChO to any significant degree. It's comparable to CoX now, and certainly pails in comparison to maneuverability before CoX added suppression. And when part of the big draw of a game is the multiplayer aspect, it's pretty stupid to then play cheer-leader for the WoW-based quest model, when it only serves to reduce grouping compared to, say, the model they designed six years ago for their last game.

    Beyond that, I'm not seeing what you're talking about. There's a lot of misinformation that could stand to be corrected, though.

    Show me where in CoX I can use my powers without stopping and turning to face enemies.

    BlueDestiny on
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