What makes a man turn neutral? Power? Lust for gold? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
I admit I skipped a few pages, but I never saw this quote. If no one used it on one of the pages I skipped, well, shame on all of you. :P
I was one of the people who forgot to vote to kill the neutrals. In my defense, I said when I voted for one day of blood and gore that I'd completely forget about this game when Brawl came out. Honestly, it's a miracle that I even got my attack order in.
Good game all, and sucks that we died. It's a bit unsatisfying...no one gets to gloat, which is always a part of the postgame show. Ah well.
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
So I've been thinking on it, and the best part about this game was that you could choose to be whatever you wanted to be, unlike a typical phalla where YOU ARE THE VIGILANTE.
One way to make the game more like phalla while still maintaining this charm, though, would be to have people choose their own win conditions at the outset, and also give access to more phallaish powers. So have one of the abilities be a 'seer' type ability, so you'd give up combat bonuses to be able to tell other peoples' win condition. Or choose fighter type abilities (either for the village (vigilante) or not (mafioso)), or guardian type abilities (so you're weak yourself but if someone attacks the person you're defending they get toastercaked). You could also mimic factions, conversion mechanics, etc etc etc... And it sounds like it'd be alot of fun.
Just don't try it with 100+ people at a time, because you'd go even MORE insane.
I will admit that the last two rounds (i.e. the vault assault) presented a very interesting and potent situation to consider. That, I think, was a great twist to the game. Up until that point, the objective of 'survival' wasn't that salient and didn't quite grab me.
Fallout itself provides many open ended choices and lots of possibilities depending upon the player with a linear end path, which is kind of what we aimed for. So the ending was always going to be the same, how you got there would've been different depending on your choices though, to a point.
Personally, I wanted to see a huge number of players win under a same win condition by storming the vault, but it was not meant to be.
Personally, I wanted to see a huge number of players win under a same win condition by storming the vault, but it was not meant to be.
That would have been pretty unsatisfying to me. I like the way it turned out, though I would also have been happy with a decisive PvP victory either way.
I don't think I've said it yet, but a few balance issues aside, I thought this game was great.
I had fun with this phalla, but admittedly not until the very end. I think at the beginning of the game there just wasn't enough motive to start attacking your fellow caravanmen. It definitely would have sped things up to have the caravan population below half before we even made it to the vault. (At least I don't think it was below half...)
One thing that might have been interesting would have been to have the people who heard "rumors" about the Vault ALSO hear that the Vault might have limited space. That would have sown the seeds of PvP earlier, I think, and made things more interesting throughout the game (or at least throughout based on what the people hearing the rumors decided to do).
One thing that might have been interesting would have been to have the people who heard "rumors" about the Vault ALSO hear that the Vault might have limited space. That would have sown the seeds of PvP earlier, I think, and made things more interesting throughout the game (or at least throughout based on what the people hearing the rumors decided to do).
Yeah, I think that was mostly my fault. Ardor and I discussed it and he pushed to do that and I pushed the other way for some reason. In hindsight I think he was right and we should have done as you now suggest.
Good game all, and sucks that we died. It's a bit unsatisfying...no one gets to gloat, which is always a part of the postgame show. Ah well.
Actually, I think the people who tried to storm the vault are completely within their rights to gloat.
They're too dead to gloat.
If I was organizing the attackers, I would have actually had everyone DO NOTHING the first night. Then, when it's clear that there is absolutely no way to kill all the PCs on the second night, the added pressure will help swing the undecideds towards storming the vault, thus securing victory.
It was the Prisoner's Dilemma situation in the first night because you had a choice: attack or betray. The payoffs are basically the same. Both choosing attack means the best in an ideal situation. One choosing attack and one choosing betray will always benefit the betrayer, because the attacker would be double teamed. Both choosing betray means mutually assured destruction.
But you always expect the other guy to betray, so you betray yourself unless you feel suicidal. Hence, exactly like the Prisoner's Dilemma.
EXCEPT we get a second day, and opportunity for contact. That's why the best choice was to wait on the first day, so the suicidal would kill themselves because no one would be sure enough to attack, then to organize an attack on the second day with our near full roster because it would be the only chance for victory. Re-adjust the payoffs to be more enticing to choose to attack.
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Hi I'm Vee!Formerly VH; She/Her; Is an E X P E R I E N C ERegistered Userregular
Good game all, and sucks that we died. It's a bit unsatisfying...no one gets to gloat, which is always a part of the postgame show. Ah well.
Actually, I think the people who tried to storm the vault are completely within their rights to gloat.
They're too dead to gloat.
If I was organizing the attackers, I would have actually had everyone DO NOTHING the first night. Then, when it's clear that there is absolutely no way to kill all the PCs on the second night, the added pressure will help swing the undecideds towards storming the vault, thus securing victory.
It was the Prisoner's Dilemma situation in the first night because you had a choice: attack or betray. The payoffs are basically the same. Both choosing attack means the best in an ideal situation. One choosing attack and one choosing betray will always benefit the betrayer, because the attacker would be double teamed. Both choosing betray means mutually assured destruction.
But you always expect the other guy to betray, so you betray yourself unless you feel suicidal. Hence, exactly like the Prisoner's Dilemma.
EXCEPT we get a second day, and opportunity for contact. That's why the best choice was to wait on the first day, so the suicidal would kill themselves because no one would be sure enough to attack, then to organize an attack on the second day with our near full roster because it would be the only chance for victory. Re-adjust the payoffs to be more enticing to choose to attack.
The bolded portion is why it's not a Prisoner's Dilemma. It's only a Prisoner's Dilemma if the payoff is more for betraying. In the end, you can win with cooperation, or you can win with betrayal, but you don't "super-win" with betrayal. Thus, it just comes down to a regular dilemma: will people betray, or will they not? Just because people have the option to betray other people doesn't automatically make it a Prisoner's Dilemma.
Whatever, though, it's not really that important. If you want to engage in a discussion about the finer points of game theory with me specifically, feel free to PM me, and I'll be glad to dig out my Econ textbook and tell you why you're wrong. :P
The bolded portion is why it's not a Prisoner's Dilemma.
The payoffs are basically the same between this situation on the first day and the Prisoner's Dilemma.
The betrayal payoff is better because you won't die.
If everyone held off on attacking, the second day just turns into a basic dilemma where the payoff for attacking the vault is huge since there are too many players left to whittle down for victory.
Really in the end I think the decision to attack the vault is because I felt rather bored of just hitting NPCs throughout.
Granted half of the problem was mine picking the characteristics I did: Ghoul, Gambling, Luck, and jinxed. I think if this is run again I'm definitely going for a more combat oriented character. My gambling didn't really pay off until the night before the vault assault. It's one reason I'm kind of against phallas where a player needs money to do anything seemingly useful.
I wouldn't have enjoyed this game as much without there being clear "characters" involved.
"stripper cola girl", "the cynical ghoul" (that'd be RU), "That asshole who threw a boxing match and made me a lot of cash!" (go Toxic!), the "robot with the cold rusty metal hands" etc.
It helped you identify with the other players a little, it helped, in my mind, give you a sense of who was who, and made you really decide whether or not to kill someone, as opposed to "fuck it, murder away".
Or at least, it did to me. But then, I'm a guy who would RP while playing fucking Candyland if I could.
Also, I truly enjoyed the "choose your own character". I really did. I hate, like almost everyone else, being assigned a "boring" role and accomplishing so little because I just want to see the end of a game. But even then, I develop a certain "personality". This, though, I had skills that I could use. That I chose. That made me be somebody, even if I didn't affect the outcome all that much.
I think the issue here was there was a fundamental disconnect between the players who looked at it as a roleplaying exercise AS WELL AS a game, and those players who didn't care about the RP and just wanted to "win". I'm not disparaging either group, although it's plain which one I fell into. I'm just saying that that fundamental disconnect made it a lot more difficult for some of us to enjoy the game.
I recall a specific instance of being bitched out for refusing to commit suicide when more qualified guys were willing to stand in front of bullets. That was me wanting to help out BUT ALSO not wanbting to die. If I were looking at it from the purest "we need to win" perspective, I would've felt no shame whatsoever about letting the "tanks" do the tanking and me acting as support. As it was, I got a bit upset and angry because I felt that I was being bitched at for actually wanting to survive. For the record, DA, I don't hold it against you, but I still disagree with you wholeheartedly.
So really, the problem at the end was tht those of us who were RPing and decided not to assault the Vault, might well consider walking into the sunset a "win". I know I would've, and I know Ahava does. It might not be a win in accordance with the game's rules, but from an RP perspective, it's a win of a sort. Phyrric victory, to be sure, but such is the stuff of legends.
From a "pure game" perspective, yep, we lost, and everyone who didn't fight to win sucks. But see, that's the perspective that I think makes a lot of Phallas so much less fun to play. I want to enjoy these games, and I enjoy them that much more when I'm not being screamed at for not playing the game "right". Don't get me wrong, I don't want to blow Phallas right and left, but I don't think it's right to shout someone down for trying to split a vote or something. There is, in some Phallas, some real bitterness that seems to be vented over some players being upset at how others play the game. The way I feel about it, the game's there to enjoy, and as long as I'm enjoying it without being a complete asshole (unless I'm evil, in which case being an asshole is both mandated, and appreciated by the other players), I'm happy. I've yet to be a winner in a Phalla, I think, but frankly, I can live with that. I've enjoyed every single Phalla I've been in except the Transformers Phalla. I'm sorry, those of you who were involved running that one, I just didn't have fun. Getting screwed accidentally on day 1 didn't help.
This game was a lot of fun for me. But then, I knew what I was getting into. I've played Fallout. Thematically speaking, this game was dead fucking on. It really was.
I understand some people didn't get what they want out of the game, but I did. I got exactly what I wanted, although I guess I do wish I'd lived longer. This game was wonderful to me, despite the screwups. Drez, Ardor, I personally commend you both. Thanks for the game.
This game was a lot of fun for me. But then, I knew what I was getting into. I've played Fallout. Thematically speaking, this game was dead fucking on. It really was.
I understand some people didn't get what they want out of the game, but I did. I got exactly what I wanted, although I guess I do wish I'd lived longer. This game was wonderful to me, despite the screwups. Drez, Ardor, I personally commend you both. Thanks for the game.
Thanks...that, especially the bolded phrase, means a lot. If nothing else, I'm glad we accomplished at least that.
Fun trivia fact:
Drez has beaten Fallout but not Fallout 2
Ardor has beaten Fallout 2 but not Fallout
I hate to harp on this, but I really must know how I took so much damage on Day 8. I don't care if it was a calculation mistake as I would have died anyway on Day 9, but my curiosity demands satisfaction.
Also, in the interests of closure, Mutants & Medics. Login: cheez/fallout
My main complaint with this phalla, besides the numerous mistakes, was the lack of feedback on what happened to you each night. It was annoying having to speculate about what happened in that fight I got in based only on the HP and items I had left afterwards. I think you guys just bit off more than you could chew letting so many people join. Maybe what you should have done to split up the work was divide the players evenly between you, so we each have a representative for the game that we send all our commands to each night?
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duraxWho watches the watchdogs?Registered Userregular
edited March 2008
Were 'nukacolas' an actual item? If so what did they do?
My main complaint with this phalla, besides the numerous mistakes, was the lack of feedback on what happened to you each night. It was annoying having to speculate about what happened in that fight I got in based only on the HP and items I had left afterwards.
Particularly so if you weren't mentioned in the narrations.
My main complaint with this phalla, besides the numerous mistakes, was the lack of feedback on what happened to you each night. It was annoying having to speculate about what happened in that fight I got in based only on the HP and items I had left afterwards.
Particularly so if you weren't mentioned in the narrations.
Admittedly though detailed pms would probably have required someone working on this as a full time job.
Unearthly Stew on
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
I hate to harp on this, but I really must know how I took so much damage on Day 8. I don't care if it was a calculation mistake as I would have died anyway on Day 9, but my curiosity demands satisfaction.
Also, in the interests of closure, Mutants & Medics. Login: cheez/fallout
Awesome
if you guys had actually got in contact with us during day 7 we would have followed your win condition, you being our allies and all.
All I had was Plutonium telling me that M+M was the largest part of his group of people that were going for a 30 man win.
My main complaint with this phalla, besides the numerous mistakes, was the lack of feedback on what happened to you each night. It was annoying having to speculate about what happened in that fight I got in based only on the HP and items I had left afterwards.
Particularly so if you weren't mentioned in the narrations.
Admittedly though detailed pms would probably have required someone working on this as a full time job.
True, although even something like 'you killed X raiders' to gauge your effectiveness would've been nice.
I think the issue here was there was a fundamental disconnect between the players who looked at it as a roleplaying exercise AS WELL AS a game, and those players who didn't care about the RP and just wanted to "win". I'm not disparaging either group, although it's plain which one I fell into. I'm just saying that that fundamental disconnect made it a lot more difficult for some of us to enjoy the game.
Krata, I hate to be advertising in someone else's thread. But wait a few months and play my Phalla 8-)
My main complaint with this phalla, besides the numerous mistakes, was the lack of feedback on what happened to you each night. It was annoying having to speculate about what happened in that fight I got in based only on the HP and items I had left afterwards.
Particularly so if you weren't mentioned in the narrations.
Admittedly though detailed pms would probably have required someone working on this as a full time job.
Considering the amount of players , yeah. 40 seems like the max players you could get away with doing that.
Krata, I hate to be advertising in someone else's thread. But wait a few months and play my Phalla 8-)
I think you'll enjoy it.
I'll watch for it.
KrataLightblade on
LEVEL 50 SWORD JUGGLER/WIZARD!
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
If someone wants to go all-out with this whole RPPhalla idea (with detailed personalized PMs and all the trimmings), I recommend no more than 20 people for the first try.
Because seriously- you can have too few players and still be okay. Having too many players would totally drain your will to live, as I'm sure Ardor and Drez can attest.
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I admit I skipped a few pages, but I never saw this quote. If no one used it on one of the pages I skipped, well, shame on all of you. :P
I was one of the people who forgot to vote to kill the neutrals. In my defense, I said when I voted for one day of blood and gore that I'd completely forget about this game when Brawl came out. Honestly, it's a miracle that I even got my attack order in.
Good game all, and sucks that we died. It's a bit unsatisfying...no one gets to gloat, which is always a part of the postgame show. Ah well.
One way to make the game more like phalla while still maintaining this charm, though, would be to have people choose their own win conditions at the outset, and also give access to more phallaish powers. So have one of the abilities be a 'seer' type ability, so you'd give up combat bonuses to be able to tell other peoples' win condition. Or choose fighter type abilities (either for the village (vigilante) or not (mafioso)), or guardian type abilities (so you're weak yourself but if someone attacks the person you're defending they get toastercaked). You could also mimic factions, conversion mechanics, etc etc etc... And it sounds like it'd be alot of fun.
Just don't try it with 100+ people at a time, because you'd go even MORE insane.
Actually, I think the people who tried to storm the vault are completely within their rights to gloat.
And somebody did break out the "neutrals" quote a couple days ago. Don't remember who. But there's always room for a duplicate Futurama quote.
Psycholarry1 beat you to it, but he didn't provide the full quote.
Personally, I wanted to see a huge number of players win under a same win condition by storming the vault, but it was not meant to be.
That would have been pretty unsatisfying to me. I like the way it turned out, though I would also have been happy with a decisive PvP victory either way.
I don't think I've said it yet, but a few balance issues aside, I thought this game was great.
Er, wait, that was me. I'm Drez. Shit.
Yeah, I think that was mostly my fault. Ardor and I discussed it and he pushed to do that and I pushed the other way for some reason. In hindsight I think he was right and we should have done as you now suggest.
They're too dead to gloat.
If I was organizing the attackers, I would have actually had everyone DO NOTHING the first night. Then, when it's clear that there is absolutely no way to kill all the PCs on the second night, the added pressure will help swing the undecideds towards storming the vault, thus securing victory.
It was the Prisoner's Dilemma situation in the first night because you had a choice: attack or betray. The payoffs are basically the same. Both choosing attack means the best in an ideal situation. One choosing attack and one choosing betray will always benefit the betrayer, because the attacker would be double teamed. Both choosing betray means mutually assured destruction.
But you always expect the other guy to betray, so you betray yourself unless you feel suicidal. Hence, exactly like the Prisoner's Dilemma.
EXCEPT we get a second day, and opportunity for contact. That's why the best choice was to wait on the first day, so the suicidal would kill themselves because no one would be sure enough to attack, then to organize an attack on the second day with our near full roster because it would be the only chance for victory. Re-adjust the payoffs to be more enticing to choose to attack.
The bolded portion is why it's not a Prisoner's Dilemma. It's only a Prisoner's Dilemma if the payoff is more for betraying. In the end, you can win with cooperation, or you can win with betrayal, but you don't "super-win" with betrayal. Thus, it just comes down to a regular dilemma: will people betray, or will they not? Just because people have the option to betray other people doesn't automatically make it a Prisoner's Dilemma.
Whatever, though, it's not really that important. If you want to engage in a discussion about the finer points of game theory with me specifically, feel free to PM me, and I'll be glad to dig out my Econ textbook and tell you why you're wrong. :P
The payoffs are basically the same between this situation on the first day and the Prisoner's Dilemma.
The betrayal payoff is better because you won't die.
If everyone held off on attacking, the second day just turns into a basic dilemma where the payoff for attacking the vault is huge since there are too many players left to whittle down for victory.
Granted half of the problem was mine picking the characteristics I did: Ghoul, Gambling, Luck, and jinxed. I think if this is run again I'm definitely going for a more combat oriented character. My gambling didn't really pay off until the night before the vault assault. It's one reason I'm kind of against phallas where a player needs money to do anything seemingly useful.
In general I agree with you, but in this game all you had to do was find some allies who would gladly hook you up.
Or you can find the kind-hearted gullible medic that was selling healing items for like, 85% off the first 2 nights.
heh.
As for those of you attacking the Neutrals.
Bite me.
I did what I thought was thematically appropriate *for me*. And I'd been RPing the entire game, so I did what was right, for her too.
And to those of you that RPed with me, RU, Toxic, Krata, Rend, Carnage, Bliss, etc etc.
You guys rock so hard. So. Hard. You made this worth it for me.
And to my Toxic Alliance buddies, We'll do this next time we get the chance. for sure.
And yeah, I'm done.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
well, i heart you anyways, pochacco.
honestly, i do. lots of hearting.
and i was neutral on the first night, but then defended the second night.
ohwell.
i still dont' consider it a loss, cause i had fun.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
I wouldn't have enjoyed this game as much without there being clear "characters" involved.
"stripper cola girl", "the cynical ghoul" (that'd be RU), "That asshole who threw a boxing match and made me a lot of cash!" (go Toxic!), the "robot with the cold rusty metal hands" etc.
It helped you identify with the other players a little, it helped, in my mind, give you a sense of who was who, and made you really decide whether or not to kill someone, as opposed to "fuck it, murder away".
Or at least, it did to me. But then, I'm a guy who would RP while playing fucking Candyland if I could.
Also, I truly enjoyed the "choose your own character". I really did. I hate, like almost everyone else, being assigned a "boring" role and accomplishing so little because I just want to see the end of a game. But even then, I develop a certain "personality". This, though, I had skills that I could use. That I chose. That made me be somebody, even if I didn't affect the outcome all that much.
I think the issue here was there was a fundamental disconnect between the players who looked at it as a roleplaying exercise AS WELL AS a game, and those players who didn't care about the RP and just wanted to "win". I'm not disparaging either group, although it's plain which one I fell into. I'm just saying that that fundamental disconnect made it a lot more difficult for some of us to enjoy the game.
I recall a specific instance of being bitched out for refusing to commit suicide when more qualified guys were willing to stand in front of bullets. That was me wanting to help out BUT ALSO not wanbting to die. If I were looking at it from the purest "we need to win" perspective, I would've felt no shame whatsoever about letting the "tanks" do the tanking and me acting as support. As it was, I got a bit upset and angry because I felt that I was being bitched at for actually wanting to survive. For the record, DA, I don't hold it against you, but I still disagree with you wholeheartedly.
So really, the problem at the end was tht those of us who were RPing and decided not to assault the Vault, might well consider walking into the sunset a "win". I know I would've, and I know Ahava does. It might not be a win in accordance with the game's rules, but from an RP perspective, it's a win of a sort. Phyrric victory, to be sure, but such is the stuff of legends.
From a "pure game" perspective, yep, we lost, and everyone who didn't fight to win sucks. But see, that's the perspective that I think makes a lot of Phallas so much less fun to play. I want to enjoy these games, and I enjoy them that much more when I'm not being screamed at for not playing the game "right". Don't get me wrong, I don't want to blow Phallas right and left, but I don't think it's right to shout someone down for trying to split a vote or something. There is, in some Phallas, some real bitterness that seems to be vented over some players being upset at how others play the game. The way I feel about it, the game's there to enjoy, and as long as I'm enjoying it without being a complete asshole (unless I'm evil, in which case being an asshole is both mandated, and appreciated by the other players), I'm happy. I've yet to be a winner in a Phalla, I think, but frankly, I can live with that. I've enjoyed every single Phalla I've been in except the Transformers Phalla. I'm sorry, those of you who were involved running that one, I just didn't have fun. Getting screwed accidentally on day 1 didn't help.
This game was a lot of fun for me. But then, I knew what I was getting into. I've played Fallout. Thematically speaking, this game was dead fucking on. It really was.
I understand some people didn't get what they want out of the game, but I did. I got exactly what I wanted, although I guess I do wish I'd lived longer. This game was wonderful to me, despite the screwups. Drez, Ardor, I personally commend you both. Thanks for the game.
Thanks...that, especially the bolded phrase, means a lot. If nothing else, I'm glad we accomplished at least that.
Fun trivia fact:
Drez has beaten Fallout but not Fallout 2
Ardor has beaten Fallout 2 but not Fallout
Heh.
Also, in the interests of closure, Mutants & Medics. Login: cheez/fallout
Particularly so if you weren't mentioned in the narrations.
Admittedly though detailed pms would probably have required someone working on this as a full time job.
Awesome
if you guys had actually got in contact with us during day 7 we would have followed your win condition, you being our allies and all.
All I had was Plutonium telling me that M+M was the largest part of his group of people that were going for a 30 man win.
Which is why I went for that.
True, although even something like 'you killed X raiders' to gauge your effectiveness would've been nice.
Well it was a wandering army of 7 robots.
Krata, I hate to be advertising in someone else's thread. But wait a few months and play my Phalla 8-)
I think you'll enjoy it.
Considering the amount of players , yeah. 40 seems like the max players you could get away with doing that.
I'll watch for it.
Because seriously- you can have too few players and still be okay. Having too many players would totally drain your will to live, as I'm sure Ardor and Drez can attest.