I think one overlooked problem is how hard it is to get demos for PC games. Frankly, it's not that much harder to pirate the full game than to hunt down and download the demo for it. And this is a huge problem.
Really?
My ISP hosts pretty much every game demo (and patch) that is released on a local server for their users. Downloading demos is as simple as going to their site and typing the name of the game that I want the demo for.
agreed 100%.
Show me a game that has a demo released, that I cannot be downloading with 1 minute. This is a silly excuse.
Compared to fucking around with AssPlanet and other hosting mirrors going to a torrent site often is less of a hassle. It's not hard, but it's bloody annoying.
Yeah, I always have trouble downloading demos, they often don't support download resuming, I have to do lots of stupid authentication stuff, I can't download more than one demo at a time from one place, everywhere tries to get me to register, often once they download they need to update.
Hell, wasn't there a demo for a trackmania game that included starforce? Like, for the free demo. In case anyone pirated it.
If demos were all distributed through torrents I would probably try more PC demos.
Yeah, I always have trouble downloading demos, they often don't support download resuming,
I have this issue as well, although I've discovered a way around it (although it's a bit more complicated). It's not that servers don't support download resuming, it's just that they offer a temporary address at which to take the file from which dissapears after a while.
What I tend to do with large files that I need to stop partway is use a combination of Firefox, FreeDownloadManager (just as the name describes), and FlashGot (firefox addon that transfers a file download automatically to your chosen download manager).
Flashgot the download link (right click on it and "Flashgot" should be an option) and 9/10 times you ought to be able to transfer the link OK to FDM (sometimes the link is hidden behind yet another dummy re-direct link, which can mess this up. Although I've found that to be rare).
The download ought to continue just fine in your download manager. Now after a while if you stop the download for too long or just lose connection, you wont be able to resume it directly.
What you do then is go back to the website and get a NEW download link (so basically go through the "select a location, select a free server, are you sure you don't want a PREMIUM server" business") and start downloading a new copy of the file in your download manager.
Pause or stop the new download (it's only for a short time). Now right click on that file in your download manager and select "properties" and in there should be listed the address that the new download is coming from. Copy that, and past it into the address in the properties for the file that was already there before.
The file should then continue on downloading from the new address, and continue from the position it left off previously. You can delete the seond file that you started and stopped.
It sounds complicated but it's actually fairly simple and saves me a lot of aggravation when I'm trying to download a large demo and the server keeps cutting out partway. You don't strictly need to use FDM for this, it's just the one I use and I've found it works well for the task. You can queue up downloads, set how much you download at any point and other bits and pieces.
Hell, wasn't there a demo for a trackmania game that included starforce? Like, for the free demo. In case anyone pirated it.
It was more the case that they were worried pirates would make some minor modifications on the .exe and use that to easily pirate the full version. Not that it really helped, they still easily pirated it, but hey, that was the theory behind it anyway.
If demos were all distributed through torrents I would probably try more PC demos.
Yeah, in general I prefer to get a torrent of the demo if possible. Assuming it's a new demo, this is better for the user and better for the company as well. I find demo hunting right now to be a bit of a pain, especially with the lack of native download resuming (forcing me to do stuff like the above).
Yeah, I have Free Download Manager + Flashget, but I didn't know I could do that for resuming, nice trick, thanks!
Someone who understands bittorrent should make a site for just legitimate uses of bittorrent, like demos (with permission of the license holder), public domain stuff, open source software and free music.
It might already exist, and I haven't heard of it, but if I knew how to do that kind of thing I totally would.
Call of Duty's pirated numbers aren't going to be sky high in China, thats for damn sure. Looking on xfire now when I search for servers and set it to "My Country" (I'm in China, teaching english), I get 16 servers returned, with about 120 players.
The reason you ask? Simple really, it requires a high spec machine to run properly, and most of the internet cafe's are setup to run WoW at 1024x768 with some of the pretty turned on, but not all of it. Same with Crysis and any other high end game that comes out.
The fun part is going to the internet cafe's and seeing all the illegal software installed on them, and its not just one place, they all use the same account management software for monitoring time and installing the games. As a bonus they also have every emulator for systems from the nes and onward, with full rom library's and such. PSP and DS game images are on there also for those with R4 carts or hacked firmware.
Piracy here is a business model, but I think truthfully that it can still be overcome in some ways, though I don't support some of the ideas I'm going to post since I read a little book called 1984 and agree with its sentiments.
1. All internet cafe users have to show their government ID cards they get when they turn 18, creating a possible KEY value for a large database to use for a game deployment system such as STEAM, lets say every user gets one of these issued when they want to make an account, call it a Game Security Number (GSN). This leads to the fact that if a person is caught fucking about and doing something they shouldn't, they don't just get one game account banned, they get their entire game access banned, and possibly the ability to find them and prosecute them.
2. Online games not only need a CD-KEY to make an account, but the user's (GSN) also, so, while people all over the world might share CD-KEY's with a friend or two, they might not want to fuxoring their one and only GSN account by letting a friend log in and use an aim-bot he just downloaded.
3. Server software can't be allowed out into the public world, otherwise it just gets hacked to get around CD-KEY issues. Possibly release gimped public servers ALLA Battlefiend 2 and 2142 where the gameplay there won't go towards unlocks and stats. WoW official servers here still make plenty of money since all the hacked ones are not up to par on quality and/or going after people that ruin the game through hacking and such, nor do they have the communities. COD4 could of done better I think if the ranking system was only active on official servers, and all public servers didn't allow progression.
4. Single player is dead for selling games because there just isn't anyway to secure single player mode with out forcing them to play on a server that would induce lag. I love single player games, but they aren't going to be able to sell as well as a game that has no way of pirating fully.
5. Companies need to stop worrying about the legal system upholding the law, the two cops in the internet cafe playing a pirated copy of counter strike source on a hacked server sure aren't going to be arresting anyone there.
6. Different Market, Different business model. Selling software to a single user doesn't work, since most of the users don't even own the machines they use. Valve has an Internet Cafe licensing model, but its designed for the US market and not China, with the prices being so outrageous here that just to allow 8 people to play would bankrupt most 50+ computer station cafe's.
MMORPG's have the most widely adapted model of "the software is free", you just need to pay for an accound with the game to play. This makes it easier on the Cafe owner since all he has to do is make the machines work, install the software, and probably even make some profit selling game time cards for you to the customers.
Titan Quest - Frustrations of a PC Developer
by Dhruin, 22:22
--snip--
About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.
-- snip --
Best,
Michael.
Apologies for necro-posting from within the thread
Bullshit. Bios updates don't magically revert when you wipe a machine.
Titan Quest - Frustrations of a PC Developer
by Dhruin, 22:22
--snip--
About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.
-- snip --
Best,
Michael.
Apologies for necro-posting from within the thread
Bullshit. Bios updates don't magically revert when you wipe a machine.
Maybe he also reset the CMOS, or maybe Michael isn't much of a tech guy and just meant something different
Someone who understands bittorrent should make a site for just legitimate uses of bittorrent, like demos (with permission of the license holder), public domain stuff, open source software and free music.
Companies can't afford hosting their own demos on dedicated servers, they spent too much cash on those DRM schemes.
Someone who understands bittorrent should make a site for just legitimate uses of bittorrent, like demos (with permission of the license holder), public domain stuff, open source software and free music.
Companies can't afford hosting their own demos on dedicated servers, they spent too much cash on those DRM schemes.
I think one overlooked problem is how hard it is to get demos for PC games. Frankly, it's not that much harder to pirate the full game than to hunt down and download the demo for it. And this is a huge problem.
Really?
My ISP hosts pretty much every game demo (and patch) that is released on a local server for their users. Downloading demos is as simple as going to their site and typing the name of the game that I want the demo for.
I think one overlooked problem is how hard it is to get demos for PC games. Frankly, it's not that much harder to pirate the full game than to hunt down and download the demo for it. And this is a huge problem.
Really?
My ISP hosts pretty much every game demo (and patch) that is released on a local server for their users. Downloading demos is as simple as going to their site and typing the name of the game that I want the demo for.
agreed 100%.
Show me a game that has a demo released, that I cannot be downloading with 1 minute. This is a silly excuse.
I don't know where you guys get your demos, but for me, I have to go through a lot of trouble to get one. First you have to hit up FilePlanet/Fileshack/whatever. Then, if you haven't already, you need to register, which is a tedious process and involves handing over your email address to one more website. Once you've registered, you still have to login. Then, chances are, you have to wait in line and look at plenty of ads; eventually (after probably a lot more than one minute) you get to start your 1gb-plus download, which will likely run at under 300kbps, which isn't really much better than what you'd get off a Torrent.
It's a pain. And people are lazy. They already have their Torrent search engine bookmarked, so all they have to do is click, type in the name of whatever game they're looking to steal, and click to start the Torrent. The process might take a little longer than downloading a demo, but it requires a lot less effort, and the result is a full game.
Now, I still believe the core problem is these Torrent search engines, and that's what we need to be fighting. But there are also positive incentives we could provide to stop people from pirating, and I believe this is one of them. Give people instant, fast, and convenient demo downloads, which can then be paid for and unlocked through a simple process to automatically download the rest of the game.
In short, make it easier, more convenient, and more reliable than pirating. It won't stop the pirates, but maybe it'll take back a few PC gamers from them.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
I don't know where you guys get your demos, but for me, I have to go through a lot of trouble to get one. First you have to hit up FilePlanet/Fileshack/whatever. Then, if you haven't already, you need to register, which is a tedious process and involves handing over your email address to one more website. Once you've registered, you still have to login. Then, chances are, you have to wait in line and look at plenty of ads; eventually (after probably a lot more than one minute) you get to start your 1gb-plus download, which will likely run at under 300kbps, which isn't really much better than what you'd get off a Torrent.
It's a pain. And people are lazy. They already have their Torrent search engine bookmarked, so all they have to do is click, type in the name of whatever game they're looking to steal, and click to start the Torrent. The process might take a little longer than downloading a demo, but it requires a lot less effort, and the result is a full game.
Now, I still believe the core problem is these Torrent search engines, and that's what we need to be fighting. But there are also positive incentives we could provide to stop people from pirating, and I believe this is one of them. Give people instant, fast, and convenient demo downloads, which can then be paid for and unlocked through a simple process to automatically download the rest of the game.
In short, make it easier, more convenient, and more reliable than pirating. It won't stop the pirates, but maybe it'll take back a few PC gamers from them.
Someone who understands bittorrent should make a site for just legitimate uses of bittorrent, like demos (with permission of the license holder), public domain stuff, open source software and free music.
It might already exist, and I haven't heard of it, but if I knew how to do that kind of thing I totally would.
There used to be a site called filerush which was basically this, but the guy stopped and basically said that the torrents were just so much less popular than the direct download links he'd post alongside them that there just really wasn't any point. People just aren't that interested in legitimate torrents.
There used to be a site called filerush which was basically this, but the guy stopped and basically said that the torrents were just so much less popular than the direct download links he'd post alongside them that there just really wasn't any point. People just aren't that interested in legitimate torrents when there's a direct link right next to them that doesn't require any bandwidth sharing at all.
I wonder if 20 years from now, the "theft" of say something like a TV show won't actually be illegal anymore. That's because the courts, business, and society realizes that it's damn near impossible to actually enforce it, so why bother? However, there will be business models out there that still enable TV studios, actors, publishers, and everyone else involved to still make money, as well as enable customers to enjoy and pay for their products.
NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.
because the nanosecond its officially legal for you to copy TV shows, everyone will set up websites that do nothing but leech shows from the creators, and earn money from the ad revenue, and the very day that happens is the very last day anyone will ever make a TV show.
Long ago, all property was physical. Then we got digital, copyable content, and its on the increase. The only thing that makes digital content viable is IP law, otherwise there is zero incentive to create anything but hobbyist content. as more and more people depend on digital content for their livelihoods, the more important it will be to enforce IP law.
Unless you want to go back to pre-1960s and have everyone in America working in a field or a factory, you need some way to safeguard the jobs of digital content creators. IP law is the only way to do that right now.
Take your argument back to the dawn of the home VHS recorder. Media companies cried all the way to the courts about how it would spell doom for them and that by allowing such devices to exist they would all go bankrupt. But what actually happened? Booming business, is what happened. The home video industry accounts for a vast slice of a given production's profitability. Sometimes sequels to really shitty movies are greenlit when the backers know full well that they'll fail at the box office simply because they know they'll be profitable in the retail chain. It's that lucrative.
In other words, just because somethings seems like it may harm an industry doesn't always mean it will.
ChewyWaffles on
0
Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Take your argument back to the dawn of the home VHS recorder. Media companies cried all the way to the courts about how it would spell doom for them and that by allowing such devices to exist they would all go bankrupt. But what actually happened? Booming business, is what happened. The home video industry accounts for a vast slice of a given production's profitability. Sometimes sequels to really shitty movies are greenlit when the backers know full well that they'll fail at the box office simply because they know they'll be profitable in the retail chain. It's that lucrative.
In other words, just because somethings seems like it may harm an industry doesn't always mean it will.
Well, the point is valid, but they're not really analogous. Availability and quality of copy is key. So you can pirate a move/show on VHS. Great, you still need a source. Which means either an original (The copying of which is legal in Canada and hasn't killed the industry), or a copy. Since it's analog, each successive copy degrades a bit more until you can no longer copy it. So really, you need an original broadcast or tape for the copy to be worth much.
Digital is different. Not only since copies are indistinguishable from the original regardless of how many times it is copied, but because availability is so much more universal on the internet. VHS was successful because piracy was still a pain in the ass on it. Not so much with digital content. In fact, it's MORE convenient to pirate than it is to buy in many ways.
You know, I'd only thought about software piracy in the one dimensional perspective of purchase versus pirate. However, I hadn't thought of the influence that pirates can have on people that don't pirate by way of word of mouth. Something I'll have to think about.
Subedii, that was a fucking excellent take on the argument and I applaud you for it.
Yup, very well said.
The only addition I'd like to make is the usual caveat: just because we know that current IP laws and business models around it are currently borked, that doesn't mean "it's okay" to go ahead and pirate stuff, because you think it'll be legal/okay/allowed years from now. That might be true then, but it's not now, so anyone who currently pirates games using that as an excuse is still lame.
In fact, it's MORE convenient to pirate than it is to buy in many ways.
This isn't the fault of the pirates, that's for sure.
If TV stations put every single show they air on a torrent server and used splitscreen adds (a-la youtube) I guarantee you that people would be downloading and watching from them instead of piratebay or where ever. Media needs to adapt to the reality of new technology in the same way that Movies adapted to VHS and DVD.
Radio (which is a free, uncontrollable broadcast) serves to increase music sales. It is only through poor handling that the internet (which is a free, uncontrollable broadcast) hasn't been treated in the same way.
Subedii, that was a fucking excellent take on the argument and I applaud you for it.
Yup, very well said.
The only addition I'd like to make is the usual caveat: just because we know that current IP laws and business models around it are currently borked, that doesn't mean "it's okay" to go ahead and pirate stuff, because you think it'll be legal/okay/allowed years from now. That might be true then, but it's not now, so anyone who currently pirates games using that as an excuse is still lame.
Well heck man, at the moment it's the only publishing model we've got, and personally, I just want to see them produce sequels to the games I enjoy now. That's about all there is to it.
subedii on
0
Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
In fact, it's MORE convenient to pirate than it is to buy in many ways.
This isn't the fault of the pirates, that's for sure.
If TV stations put every single show they air on a torrent server and used splitscreen adds (a-la youtube) I guarantee you that people would be downloading and watching from them instead of piratebay or where ever. Media needs to adapt to the reality of new technology in the same way that Movies adapted to VHS and DVD.
Radio (which is a free, uncontrollable broadcast) serves to increase music sales. It is only through poor handling that the internet (which is a free, uncontrollable broadcast) hasn't been treated in the same way.
.....you know, other than the fact that it is illegal to operate a radio station without a license. And radio is capable of only a single stream at any given time. Also, analog source. AND usually mixes beginning and end of songs with other sounds, so it's not a pure copy. AND, it's legal to record from the radio anyway.
I'm not sure how PC game piracy (Which is really the main issue in the OP) would be limited by this. I mean, unless you want to make every game an MMO style game that pauses every once in a while to try to sell you something. In other words, not practical.
The idea of tv stations putting the show on a youtube style service is fine - but isn't cost effective yet. Youtube is low-res, low quality hosting. How on earth is a Youtube style business framework going to recoup the cost of the bandwidth required for HD?
The whole debate of "theft" vs. "copyright infringement" is stupid to begin with since when you are prosecuted, what you stole and how you stole it is brought up in the charges. You are never charged with just "theft" so separating them is pointless. It should be pointed out that the amendment that made it illegal to commit copyright infringement for noncommercial purposes was called the No Electronic Theft Act.
The thing people keep ignoring is the concept of markets. There is a large group of people that pirate everything they get their hands on. The music and movie industry have such large markets that such a market is relatively small in comparison. The problem for the video game industry is that this market is precisely who they've relied on. This is why The Sims 2 and it's expansion packs dominate the PC chart in the NPD.
Rakai on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]XBL: Rakayn | PS3: Rakayn | Steam ID
I'm not sure how PC game piracy (Which is really the main issue in the OP) would be limited by this. I mean, unless you want to make every game an MMO style game that pauses every once in a while to try to sell you something. In other words, not practical.
It's not too difficult actually. At the very least, you can force the user to login to a server before they can play the game. Now a few years ago, something like that would have been laughably crazy to have as a requirement. Now, it almost seems plausible, since always-on Internet connections are so prevalent (especially with PCs, maybe not so much with consoles yet).
Of course, forcing a user to login just to play a single-player game is pretty lame. So the developer would be likely to add other things to encourage the user to want to sign on ... adding in multiplayer, or achievements, or extra content, etc. Very soon you get something which gamers actually want, while also making your game a lot more secure against piracy.
Hellgate: London is probably the best example of this. Sure, they have a single-player mode where you don't have to sign into their servers. But as a gamer, why bother with that, when you can just as easily play on the multi-player servers and potentially hook up with friends, explore new content, etc.
I'm not sure how PC game piracy (Which is really the main issue in the OP) would be limited by this. I mean, unless you want to make every game an MMO style game that pauses every once in a while to try to sell you something. In other words, not practical.
It's not too difficult actually. At the very least, you can force the user to login to a server before they can play the game. Now a few years ago, something like that would have been laughably crazy to have as a requirement. Now, it almost seems plausible, since always-on Internet connections are so prevalent (especially with PCs, maybe not so much with consoles yet).
Of course, forcing a user to login just to play a single-player game is pretty lame. So the developer would be likely to add other things to encourage the user to want to sign on ... adding in multiplayer, or achievements, or extra content, etc. Very soon you get something which gamers actually want, while also making your game a lot more secure against piracy.
Hellgate: London is probably the best example of this. Sure, they have a single-player mode where you don't have to sign into their servers. But as a gamer, why bother with that, when you can just as easily play on the multi-player servers and potentially hook up with friends, explore new content, etc.
Cool, pretty much exactly what I've suggested for XBox Live. Except they aren't doing this and the question is, why not?
The whole debate of "theft" vs. "copyright infringement" is stupid to begin with since when you are prosecuted, what you stole and how you stole it is brought up in the charges. You are never charged with just "theft" so separating them is pointless. It should be pointed out that the amendment that made it illegal to commit copyright infringement for noncommercial purposes was called the No Electronic Theft Act.
I'm not sure how PC game piracy (Which is really the main issue in the OP) would be limited by this. I mean, unless you want to make every game an MMO style game that pauses every once in a while to try to sell you something. In other words, not practical.
It's not too difficult actually. At the very least, you can force the user to login to a server before they can play the game. Now a few years ago, something like that would have been laughably crazy to have as a requirement. Now, it almost seems plausible, since always-on Internet connections are so prevalent (especially with PCs, maybe not so much with consoles yet).
Of course, forcing a user to login just to play a single-player game is pretty lame. So the developer would be likely to add other things to encourage the user to want to sign on ... adding in multiplayer, or achievements, or extra content, etc. Very soon you get something which gamers actually want, while also making your game a lot more secure against piracy.
Hellgate: London is probably the best example of this. Sure, they have a single-player mode where you don't have to sign into their servers. But as a gamer, why bother with that, when you can just as easily play on the multi-player servers and potentially hook up with friends, explore new content, etc.
I haven't played Hellgate but I'm assuming it's similar to Diablo in that it keeps its items on the server. Simply requiring you to login can easily be circumvented. Those games are designed around getting better items that are stored on the server. FPS games are not played on designated servers so I'm not sure how you would get around that.
Rakai on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]XBL: Rakayn | PS3: Rakayn | Steam ID
I haven't played Hellgate but I'm assuming it's similar to Diablo in that it keeps its items on the server. Simply requiring you to login can easily be circumvented. Those games are designed around getting better items that are stored on the server. FPS games are not played on designated servers so I'm not sure how you would get around that.
While you can't do exactly the same thing for FPS games, you can do other things. The game requires you to log in with a unique CD Key. Easy to circumvent and play on cracked servers, right? But what if being logged in gave you access to a system with friend lists, rival lists (people you encounter a lot but aren't on your friend list), sharing replays (you can have one replay of your exploits uploaded at any given time. Anyone who is your friend can retrieve it). Also the usual achievements, etc.
The hardcore pirates who wouldn't pay for anything are a lost cause. You're going after the people who sometimes pirate and sometimes buy. Basically give those people a good amount of reasons to be logged in with a legit copy and you will make people consider buying.
Heck, something like that for an RTS (sharing replays from in game, making small tournaments among friends with the help of the online system, having a "mentor" system in which you host a replay and someone else gives you pointers in voice comm and drawing in the map in real time. This other person being a friend or whatever, I don't mean staff. All of it only for online, not for LAN) would be my most wanted features. Instead of wasting money on copy protection features they should spend it on developing features like that.
I haven't played Hellgate but I'm assuming it's similar to Diablo in that it keeps its items on the server. Simply requiring you to login can easily be circumvented. Those games are designed around getting better items that are stored on the server. FPS games are not played on designated servers so I'm not sure how you would get around that.
While you can't do exactly the same thing for FPS games, you can do other things. The game requires you to log in with a unique CD Key. Easy to circumvent and play on cracked servers, right? But what if being logged in gave you access to a system with friend lists, rival lists (people you encounter a lot but aren't on your friend list), sharing replays (you can have one replay of your exploits uploaded at any given time. Anyone who is your friend can retrieve it). Also the usual achievements, etc.
The hardcore pirates who wouldn't pay for anything are a lost cause. You're going after the people who sometimes pirate and sometimes buy. Basically give those people a good amount of reasons to be logged in with a legit copy and you will make people consider buying.
Heck, something like that for an RTS (sharing replays from in game, making small tournaments among friends with the help of the online system, having a "mentor" system in which you host a replay and someone else gives you pointers in voice comm and drawing in the map in real time. This other person being a friend or whatever, I don't mean staff. All of it only for online, not for LAN) would be my most wanted features. Instead of wasting money on copy protection features they should spend it on developing features like that.
So offering dedicated multiplayer services, ok. So what about singleplayer games or does singleplayer die out on the PC?
Rakai on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]XBL: Rakayn | PS3: Rakayn | Steam ID
So offering dedicated multiplayer services, ok. So what about singleplayer games or does singleplayer die out on the PC?
That part is the slightly problematic one. You can't really require online connectivity because people game on laptops in places with no internet and because connections are not 100% reliable so they may go down (on either end). Heck, I wouldn't even recommend it for installation purposes.
Adding value on the box (include a good manual, collectibles, whatever) may work for some people. Specially when you consider that games barely come with anything these days if they are not Limited Editions. Even then, probably won't make a difference with most people.
Then maybe it's time to rethink completely single player games a bit more. You know? Online Distribution Only and Episodic content (not taking the time Valve does for each) may help a bit. See a game you like? For cheap you can have the first part and then you can keep on buying them if you like. But you're not laying down $50 to see if you like it or not. It helps with impulse buyers also.
I don't really think there is any single strategy that would fit all single player games. Much of it depends on the type of game. But then again, it's not like current methods of copy protection are doing much to help either.
I don't really think there is any single strategy that would fit all single player games. Much of it depends on the type of game. But then again, it's not like current methods of copy protection are doing much to help either.
Exactly.
Steam goes about as far as you can sensibly go on the internet-authentication route. Even if you buy Half-Life 2 at a store, you have to connect to Steam and be authenticated to play it the first time.
Yet Half-Life 2 and Valve's other games were pirated just as easily as any other game.
Marlor on
Mario Kart Wii: 1332-8060-5236 (Aaron)
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
The whole debate of "theft" vs. "copyright infringement" is stupid to begin with since when you are prosecuted, what you stole and how you stole it is brought up in the charges. You are never charged with just "theft" so separating them is pointless. It should be pointed out that the amendment that made it illegal to commit copyright infringement for noncommercial purposes was called the No Electronic Theft Act.
*image*
It's ok Glal. Some people are just so hopelessly dependant on the system, they are not ready to be unplugged. They will fight to protect it.
I couldn't help it.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
So offering dedicated multiplayer services, ok. So what about singleplayer games or does singleplayer die out on the PC?
That part is the slightly problematic one. You can't really require online connectivity because people game on laptops in places with no internet and because connections are not 100% reliable so they may go down (on either end). Heck, I wouldn't even recommend it for installation purposes.
Adding value on the box (include a good manual, collectibles, whatever) may work for some people. Specially when you consider that games barely come with anything these days if they are not Limited Editions. Even then, probably won't make a difference with most people.
Then maybe it's time to rethink completely single player games a bit more. You know? Online Distribution Only and Episodic content (not taking the time Valve does for each) may help a bit. See a game you like? For cheap you can have the first part and then you can keep on buying them if you like. But you're not laying down $50 to see if you like it or not. It helps with impulse buyers also.
I don't really think there is any single strategy that would fit all single player games. Much of it depends on the type of game. But then again, it's not like current methods of copy protection are doing much to help either.
BTW - When I made my suggestion, I wasn't implying that it can be done now. I agree that it we're getting close, but not there yet ... because of things like laptop gaming, Internet connectivity not at 100% for everyone, etc. I do think that's changing though, and not because gaming demands it, but because everything seems to be going on-line these days: e-mail, social networks, applications, etc. I recently got my very first Smartphone and I love the fact that I'm virtually connected to the Internet at all times. Looking up movie times at a whim at dinner, getting directions via Google Maps, checking e-mail anytime I want = teh awesome. We're seeing some interesting things happen in the wireless space, and I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now, Internet access is pretty much ubiquitous everywhere and for everyone.
Anyway, back to games. Once you assume always-on-Internet connectivity, I think there's a lot of things you can do even in "single-player" games. A lot of good suggestions have already been made: extra episodic content, friends lists, online presence, and achievements. Or heck, make it so that being online is a requirement, since all items are stored on the server. You could do it in such a way that actually makes it cool and not so much an anti-piracy feature. For example, once your items are stored on their servers, they can do all sorts of things like make its stats dynamic (based on your guild/clan standing, or random changes every day, etc.).
The key is to build the game in a way that users don't even realize that certain features were done to prevent piracy. It's exactly the same approach that's most successful with in-game advertising. Done tastefully, it's not a bad thing at all, and even sought after! (Having real products being advertised on billboards for sports games is more realistic than generic brands)
What's lame is having the current copy-protecting schemes that do nothing to add to the existing game or experience. Fortunately, we're seeing that already starting to change in the industry.
The whole debate of "theft" vs. "copyright infringement" is stupid to begin with since when you are prosecuted, what you stole and how you stole it is brought up in the charges. You are never charged with just "theft" so separating them is pointless. It should be pointed out that the amendment that made it illegal to commit copyright infringement for noncommercial purposes was called the No Electronic Theft Act.
*image*
It's ok Glal. Some people are just so hopelessly dependant on the system, they are not ready to be unplugged. They will fight to protect it.
So offering dedicated multiplayer services, ok. So what about singleplayer games or does singleplayer die out on the PC?
That part is the slightly problematic one. You can't really require online connectivity because people game on laptops in places with no internet and because connections are not 100% reliable so they may go down (on either end). Heck, I wouldn't even recommend it for installation purposes.
Adding value on the box (include a good manual, collectibles, whatever) may work for some people. Specially when you consider that games barely come with anything these days if they are not Limited Editions. Even then, probably won't make a difference with most people.
Then maybe it's time to rethink completely single player games a bit more. You know? Online Distribution Only and Episodic content (not taking the time Valve does for each) may help a bit. See a game you like? For cheap you can have the first part and then you can keep on buying them if you like. But you're not laying down $50 to see if you like it or not. It helps with impulse buyers also.
I don't really think there is any single strategy that would fit all single player games. Much of it depends on the type of game. But then again, it's not like current methods of copy protection are doing much to help either.
BTW - When I made my suggestion, I wasn't implying that it can be done now. I agree that it we're getting close, but not there yet ... because of things like laptop gaming, Internet connectivity not at 100% for everyone, etc. I do think that's changing though, and not because gaming demands it, but because everything seems to be going on-line these days: e-mail, social networks, applications, etc. I recently got my very first Smartphone and I love the fact that I'm virtually connected to the Internet at all times. Looking up movie times at a whim at dinner, getting directions via Google Maps, checking e-mail anytime I want = teh awesome. We're seeing some interesting things happen in the wireless space, and I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now, Internet access is pretty much ubiquitous everywhere and for everyone.
Anyway, back to games. Once you assume always-on-Internet connectivity, I think there's a lot of things you can do even in "single-player" games. A lot of good suggestions have already been made: extra episodic content, friends lists, online presence, and achievements. Or heck, make it so that being online is a requirement, since all items are stored on the server. You could do it in such a way that actually makes it cool and not so much an anti-piracy feature. For example, once your items are stored on their servers, they can do all sorts of things like make its stats dynamic (based on your guild/clan standing, or random changes every day, etc.).
The key is to build the game in a way that users don't even realize that certain features were done to prevent piracy. It's exactly the same approach that's most successful with in-game advertising. Done tastefully, it's not a bad thing at all, and even sought after! (Having real products being advertised on billboards for sports games is more realistic than generic brands)
What's lame is having the current copy-protecting schemes that do nothing to add to the existing game or experience. Fortunately, we're seeing that already starting to change in the industry.
Just a thought: How does CoD4 handle the pseudo-leveling up that is has? Is it placed on a centralized server or is it all stored locally?
Rakai on
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My only problem with the idea of integrally linking single-player games with online services is that it makes the game totally dependent on the server that it connects to.
If single-player games become dependent upon on-line connectivity, then the game can really only be played while the company who created it is in business and maintaining the server for the game. In the volatile games industry, this may well be a very limited period.
I still go back and play games that I bought years ago. Hell, I still have a working Commodore 64. I'd hate to have a situation where I couldn't play my games in years to come because they were dependent upon a server that was no longer running.
Just a thought: How does CoD4 handle the pseudo-leveling up that is has? Is it placed on a centralized server or is it all stored locally?
If it's not handled on their official servers somewhere, then it's pretty silly. Otherwise, it makes it immensely hackable.
Which would lead to my next question: how do the pirated servers function? Because if they function the same way then this would be an example of offering online services but then the pirates just emulating those services which is why I question the effectiveness of such schemes or the difficulty in coming of with a scheme that can't easily be emulated.
Rakai on
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Posts
agreed 100%.
Show me a game that has a demo released, that I cannot be downloading with 1 minute. This is a silly excuse.
Hell, wasn't there a demo for a trackmania game that included starforce? Like, for the free demo. In case anyone pirated it.
If demos were all distributed through torrents I would probably try more PC demos.
http://games.internode.on.net/
It looks like the downloads are publicly accessible, so it might be worth a shot for anyone who is frustrated by other download sites.
Every ISP I've been with have had some sort of download mirror, but Internode's is more comprehensive than most.
I have this issue as well, although I've discovered a way around it (although it's a bit more complicated). It's not that servers don't support download resuming, it's just that they offer a temporary address at which to take the file from which dissapears after a while.
What I tend to do with large files that I need to stop partway is use a combination of Firefox, FreeDownloadManager (just as the name describes), and FlashGot (firefox addon that transfers a file download automatically to your chosen download manager).
Flashgot the download link (right click on it and "Flashgot" should be an option) and 9/10 times you ought to be able to transfer the link OK to FDM (sometimes the link is hidden behind yet another dummy re-direct link, which can mess this up. Although I've found that to be rare).
The download ought to continue just fine in your download manager. Now after a while if you stop the download for too long or just lose connection, you wont be able to resume it directly.
What you do then is go back to the website and get a NEW download link (so basically go through the "select a location, select a free server, are you sure you don't want a PREMIUM server" business") and start downloading a new copy of the file in your download manager.
Pause or stop the new download (it's only for a short time). Now right click on that file in your download manager and select "properties" and in there should be listed the address that the new download is coming from. Copy that, and past it into the address in the properties for the file that was already there before.
The file should then continue on downloading from the new address, and continue from the position it left off previously. You can delete the seond file that you started and stopped.
It sounds complicated but it's actually fairly simple and saves me a lot of aggravation when I'm trying to download a large demo and the server keeps cutting out partway. You don't strictly need to use FDM for this, it's just the one I use and I've found it works well for the task. You can queue up downloads, set how much you download at any point and other bits and pieces.
It was more the case that they were worried pirates would make some minor modifications on the .exe and use that to easily pirate the full version. Not that it really helped, they still easily pirated it, but hey, that was the theory behind it anyway.
Yeah, in general I prefer to get a torrent of the demo if possible. Assuming it's a new demo, this is better for the user and better for the company as well. I find demo hunting right now to be a bit of a pain, especially with the lack of native download resuming (forcing me to do stuff like the above).
Someone who understands bittorrent should make a site for just legitimate uses of bittorrent, like demos (with permission of the license holder), public domain stuff, open source software and free music.
It might already exist, and I haven't heard of it, but if I knew how to do that kind of thing I totally would.
The reason you ask? Simple really, it requires a high spec machine to run properly, and most of the internet cafe's are setup to run WoW at 1024x768 with some of the pretty turned on, but not all of it. Same with Crysis and any other high end game that comes out.
The fun part is going to the internet cafe's and seeing all the illegal software installed on them, and its not just one place, they all use the same account management software for monitoring time and installing the games. As a bonus they also have every emulator for systems from the nes and onward, with full rom library's and such. PSP and DS game images are on there also for those with R4 carts or hacked firmware.
Piracy here is a business model, but I think truthfully that it can still be overcome in some ways, though I don't support some of the ideas I'm going to post since I read a little book called 1984 and agree with its sentiments.
1. All internet cafe users have to show their government ID cards they get when they turn 18, creating a possible KEY value for a large database to use for a game deployment system such as STEAM, lets say every user gets one of these issued when they want to make an account, call it a Game Security Number (GSN). This leads to the fact that if a person is caught fucking about and doing something they shouldn't, they don't just get one game account banned, they get their entire game access banned, and possibly the ability to find them and prosecute them.
2. Online games not only need a CD-KEY to make an account, but the user's (GSN) also, so, while people all over the world might share CD-KEY's with a friend or two, they might not want to fuxoring their one and only GSN account by letting a friend log in and use an aim-bot he just downloaded.
3. Server software can't be allowed out into the public world, otherwise it just gets hacked to get around CD-KEY issues. Possibly release gimped public servers ALLA Battlefiend 2 and 2142 where the gameplay there won't go towards unlocks and stats. WoW official servers here still make plenty of money since all the hacked ones are not up to par on quality and/or going after people that ruin the game through hacking and such, nor do they have the communities. COD4 could of done better I think if the ranking system was only active on official servers, and all public servers didn't allow progression.
4. Single player is dead for selling games because there just isn't anyway to secure single player mode with out forcing them to play on a server that would induce lag. I love single player games, but they aren't going to be able to sell as well as a game that has no way of pirating fully.
5. Companies need to stop worrying about the legal system upholding the law, the two cops in the internet cafe playing a pirated copy of counter strike source on a hacked server sure aren't going to be arresting anyone there.
6. Different Market, Different business model. Selling software to a single user doesn't work, since most of the users don't even own the machines they use. Valve has an Internet Cafe licensing model, but its designed for the US market and not China, with the prices being so outrageous here that just to allow 8 people to play would bankrupt most 50+ computer station cafe's.
MMORPG's have the most widely adapted model of "the software is free", you just need to pay for an accound with the game to play. This makes it easier on the Cafe owner since all he has to do is make the machines work, install the software, and probably even make some profit selling game time cards for you to the customers.
Bullshit. Bios updates don't magically revert when you wipe a machine.
Maybe he also reset the CMOS, or maybe Michael isn't much of a tech guy and just meant something different
Naw, it was a rant and he was throwing every real and imagined issue into the mix.
I don't know where you guys get your demos, but for me, I have to go through a lot of trouble to get one. First you have to hit up FilePlanet/Fileshack/whatever. Then, if you haven't already, you need to register, which is a tedious process and involves handing over your email address to one more website. Once you've registered, you still have to login. Then, chances are, you have to wait in line and look at plenty of ads; eventually (after probably a lot more than one minute) you get to start your 1gb-plus download, which will likely run at under 300kbps, which isn't really much better than what you'd get off a Torrent.
It's a pain. And people are lazy. They already have their Torrent search engine bookmarked, so all they have to do is click, type in the name of whatever game they're looking to steal, and click to start the Torrent. The process might take a little longer than downloading a demo, but it requires a lot less effort, and the result is a full game.
Now, I still believe the core problem is these Torrent search engines, and that's what we need to be fighting. But there are also positive incentives we could provide to stop people from pirating, and I believe this is one of them. Give people instant, fast, and convenient demo downloads, which can then be paid for and unlocked through a simple process to automatically download the rest of the game.
In short, make it easier, more convenient, and more reliable than pirating. It won't stop the pirates, but maybe it'll take back a few PC gamers from them.
There used to be a site called filerush which was basically this, but the guy stopped and basically said that the torrents were just so much less popular than the direct download links he'd post alongside them that there just really wasn't any point. People just aren't that interested in legitimate torrents.
Well, the point is valid, but they're not really analogous. Availability and quality of copy is key. So you can pirate a move/show on VHS. Great, you still need a source. Which means either an original (The copying of which is legal in Canada and hasn't killed the industry), or a copy. Since it's analog, each successive copy degrades a bit more until you can no longer copy it. So really, you need an original broadcast or tape for the copy to be worth much.
Digital is different. Not only since copies are indistinguishable from the original regardless of how many times it is copied, but because availability is so much more universal on the internet. VHS was successful because piracy was still a pain in the ass on it. Not so much with digital content. In fact, it's MORE convenient to pirate than it is to buy in many ways.
You know, I'd only thought about software piracy in the one dimensional perspective of purchase versus pirate. However, I hadn't thought of the influence that pirates can have on people that don't pirate by way of word of mouth. Something I'll have to think about.
Yup, very well said.
The only addition I'd like to make is the usual caveat: just because we know that current IP laws and business models around it are currently borked, that doesn't mean "it's okay" to go ahead and pirate stuff, because you think it'll be legal/okay/allowed years from now. That might be true then, but it's not now, so anyone who currently pirates games using that as an excuse is still lame.
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This isn't the fault of the pirates, that's for sure.
If TV stations put every single show they air on a torrent server and used splitscreen adds (a-la youtube) I guarantee you that people would be downloading and watching from them instead of piratebay or where ever. Media needs to adapt to the reality of new technology in the same way that Movies adapted to VHS and DVD.
Radio (which is a free, uncontrollable broadcast) serves to increase music sales. It is only through poor handling that the internet (which is a free, uncontrollable broadcast) hasn't been treated in the same way.
Well heck man, at the moment it's the only publishing model we've got, and personally, I just want to see them produce sequels to the games I enjoy now. That's about all there is to it.
.....you know, other than the fact that it is illegal to operate a radio station without a license. And radio is capable of only a single stream at any given time. Also, analog source. AND usually mixes beginning and end of songs with other sounds, so it's not a pure copy. AND, it's legal to record from the radio anyway.
I'm not sure how PC game piracy (Which is really the main issue in the OP) would be limited by this. I mean, unless you want to make every game an MMO style game that pauses every once in a while to try to sell you something. In other words, not practical.
The idea of tv stations putting the show on a youtube style service is fine - but isn't cost effective yet. Youtube is low-res, low quality hosting. How on earth is a Youtube style business framework going to recoup the cost of the bandwidth required for HD?
The thing people keep ignoring is the concept of markets. There is a large group of people that pirate everything they get their hands on. The music and movie industry have such large markets that such a market is relatively small in comparison. The problem for the video game industry is that this market is precisely who they've relied on. This is why The Sims 2 and it's expansion packs dominate the PC chart in the NPD.
Of course, forcing a user to login just to play a single-player game is pretty lame. So the developer would be likely to add other things to encourage the user to want to sign on ... adding in multiplayer, or achievements, or extra content, etc. Very soon you get something which gamers actually want, while also making your game a lot more secure against piracy.
Hellgate: London is probably the best example of this. Sure, they have a single-player mode where you don't have to sign into their servers. But as a gamer, why bother with that, when you can just as easily play on the multi-player servers and potentially hook up with friends, explore new content, etc.
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Cool, pretty much exactly what I've suggested for XBox Live. Except they aren't doing this and the question is, why not?
I haven't played Hellgate but I'm assuming it's similar to Diablo in that it keeps its items on the server. Simply requiring you to login can easily be circumvented. Those games are designed around getting better items that are stored on the server. FPS games are not played on designated servers so I'm not sure how you would get around that.
While you can't do exactly the same thing for FPS games, you can do other things. The game requires you to log in with a unique CD Key. Easy to circumvent and play on cracked servers, right? But what if being logged in gave you access to a system with friend lists, rival lists (people you encounter a lot but aren't on your friend list), sharing replays (you can have one replay of your exploits uploaded at any given time. Anyone who is your friend can retrieve it). Also the usual achievements, etc.
The hardcore pirates who wouldn't pay for anything are a lost cause. You're going after the people who sometimes pirate and sometimes buy. Basically give those people a good amount of reasons to be logged in with a legit copy and you will make people consider buying.
Heck, something like that for an RTS (sharing replays from in game, making small tournaments among friends with the help of the online system, having a "mentor" system in which you host a replay and someone else gives you pointers in voice comm and drawing in the map in real time. This other person being a friend or whatever, I don't mean staff. All of it only for online, not for LAN) would be my most wanted features. Instead of wasting money on copy protection features they should spend it on developing features like that.
So offering dedicated multiplayer services, ok. So what about singleplayer games or does singleplayer die out on the PC?
That part is the slightly problematic one. You can't really require online connectivity because people game on laptops in places with no internet and because connections are not 100% reliable so they may go down (on either end). Heck, I wouldn't even recommend it for installation purposes.
Adding value on the box (include a good manual, collectibles, whatever) may work for some people. Specially when you consider that games barely come with anything these days if they are not Limited Editions. Even then, probably won't make a difference with most people.
Then maybe it's time to rethink completely single player games a bit more. You know? Online Distribution Only and Episodic content (not taking the time Valve does for each) may help a bit. See a game you like? For cheap you can have the first part and then you can keep on buying them if you like. But you're not laying down $50 to see if you like it or not. It helps with impulse buyers also.
I don't really think there is any single strategy that would fit all single player games. Much of it depends on the type of game. But then again, it's not like current methods of copy protection are doing much to help either.
Exactly.
Steam goes about as far as you can sensibly go on the internet-authentication route. Even if you buy Half-Life 2 at a store, you have to connect to Steam and be authenticated to play it the first time.
Yet Half-Life 2 and Valve's other games were pirated just as easily as any other game.
It's ok Glal. Some people are just so hopelessly dependant on the system, they are not ready to be unplugged. They will fight to protect it.
BTW - When I made my suggestion, I wasn't implying that it can be done now. I agree that it we're getting close, but not there yet ... because of things like laptop gaming, Internet connectivity not at 100% for everyone, etc. I do think that's changing though, and not because gaming demands it, but because everything seems to be going on-line these days: e-mail, social networks, applications, etc. I recently got my very first Smartphone and I love the fact that I'm virtually connected to the Internet at all times. Looking up movie times at a whim at dinner, getting directions via Google Maps, checking e-mail anytime I want = teh awesome. We're seeing some interesting things happen in the wireless space, and I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now, Internet access is pretty much ubiquitous everywhere and for everyone.
Anyway, back to games. Once you assume always-on-Internet connectivity, I think there's a lot of things you can do even in "single-player" games. A lot of good suggestions have already been made: extra episodic content, friends lists, online presence, and achievements. Or heck, make it so that being online is a requirement, since all items are stored on the server. You could do it in such a way that actually makes it cool and not so much an anti-piracy feature. For example, once your items are stored on their servers, they can do all sorts of things like make its stats dynamic (based on your guild/clan standing, or random changes every day, etc.).
The key is to build the game in a way that users don't even realize that certain features were done to prevent piracy. It's exactly the same approach that's most successful with in-game advertising. Done tastefully, it's not a bad thing at all, and even sought after! (Having real products being advertised on billboards for sports games is more realistic than generic brands)
What's lame is having the current copy-protecting schemes that do nothing to add to the existing game or experience. Fortunately, we're seeing that already starting to change in the industry.
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
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Whoa.
Just a thought: How does CoD4 handle the pseudo-leveling up that is has? Is it placed on a centralized server or is it all stored locally?
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
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I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
If single-player games become dependent upon on-line connectivity, then the game can really only be played while the company who created it is in business and maintaining the server for the game. In the volatile games industry, this may well be a very limited period.
I still go back and play games that I bought years ago. Hell, I still have a working Commodore 64. I'd hate to have a situation where I couldn't play my games in years to come because they were dependent upon a server that was no longer running.
Which would lead to my next question: how do the pirated servers function? Because if they function the same way then this would be an example of offering online services but then the pirates just emulating those services which is why I question the effectiveness of such schemes or the difficulty in coming of with a scheme that can't easily be emulated.