Melee was anything but shallow. I still can't grasp half of the competitive concepts (much less put them into practice).
Wow, I'm posting a lot. You know I'm procrastinating from work when this is the case.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. And, to be honest, I think any person who professionally reviews/plays videogames who still thinks this is ignorant.
I'm not a big fan of Halo's multiplayer, but I can see the allure. I can see why people would want to play it. If I had to cover a Halo game, or write a review, I would be open about it, but I wouldn't judge it based on my preferences for games. Same with RTS games; I'm horrible at Starcraft, but I know that there's a deep game there that's been played for 10 years. If I wrote the Starcraft 2 review, I wouldn't plead ignorance about the series, and say it sucks because I just happen to suck at it. I would *gasp* do a little research.
With some people in the media, though, they just refuse to shake the notion that Smash can be played a lot deeper than they play it. Or that Pikachu's down B isn't actually broken. Or that it's only a party game. In the age of Youtube, where you can type "melee tournament" in the search bar and find videos of some extremely high level matches in about 5 seconds, you really have no excuse for being fully researched on a game you're reviewing. It just shows irresponsible journalism, in my opinion. Sure, maybe you don't play like that, or never will play like that, or don't care how they play like that... but at least, acknowledge that it's possible!
Hmm... the thing is, I doubt he reviewed any of the Smash games, and it's not like the Melee tourney scene is anywhere as prominent as, say, the Street Fighter tourney seen or the Starcraft tourney scene. So considering that the guy probably played it for a half hour, decided he didn't like it, and didn't give it much thought beyond that, I don't think it's a huge knock against him that he didn't hear about the tourney scene that evolved much, much later.
Honestly, I'm kinda' the same way with Tekken. Why the hell do people like those games? I dunno, and maybe there's some high-level strategy in those games I don't know about, but for me, they're just button-mashing idiot-fests. But they're not for me, so I stay away from them, and they stay away from me, and we leave it at that.
Isn't reviewing a review you haven't read yet kind of like reviewing a game you haven't played yet?
Not when subpar reviews are released near constantly by these people with nonsensical reasons for docking points and other bullshit tossed in. The equivalent would be if a game was released every day only slightly different each time: you could probably review the next day's game based off of today's.
Isn't reviewing a review you haven't read yet kind of like reviewing a game you haven't played yet?
You have to put it into context. We critique their review that we know nothing about while they review a game that they didn't research fully. So it all balances out
(Note, I'm talking about the IGN review here, so its probably a safe bet.)
Isn't reviewing a review you haven't read yet kind of like reviewing a game you haven't played yet?
Not when subpar reviews are released near constantly by these people with nonsensical reasons for docking points and other bullshit tossed in. The equivalent would be if a game was released every day only slightly different each time: you could probably review the next day's game based off of today's.
You probably could but you risk the chance of being wrong and if you are wrong you will look quite foolish indeed.
Calaveron wrote: View Post
ElKaboom wrote: View Post
Kupi wrote: View Post
Help!
The more I watch this, the funnier it becomes, but I'm still no closer to knowing where it's from. Someone more versed in anime than I, please explain!
Ahahaha! Ike's expression then Marth's expression in comparison just seems so in character to me...for some reason.
He's eyeing Falco hungrily.
Apparently that is the end theme to the Reborn anime.
Isn't reviewing a review you haven't read yet kind of like reviewing a game you haven't played yet?
Not when subpar reviews are released near constantly by these people with nonsensical reasons for docking points and other bullshit tossed in. The equivalent would be if a game was released every day only slightly different each time: you could probably review the next day's game based off of today's.
You probably could but you risk the chance of being wrong and if you are wrong you will look quite foolish indeed.
Heaven forbid that anyone look foolish on an internet message board.
Calaveron wrote: View Post
ElKaboom wrote: View Post
Kupi wrote: View Post
Help!
The more I watch this, the funnier it becomes, but I'm still no closer to knowing where it's from. Someone more versed in anime than I, please explain!
Ahahaha! Ike's expression then Marth's expression in comparison just seems so in character to me...for some reason.
He's eyeing Falco hungrily.
Apparently that is the end theme to the Reborn anime.
That thing is the weirdest I've seen in a long time. I can't stop watching it.
It's amazing. Amazingly awesome.
And, to CaspianX, I don't really know who it was that made that comment in the 1up podcast. I understand some people have a beef with the Smash franchise... and if you don't like it, I suppose that's cool. But when you're working on a podcast devoted largely to Smash, or you're writing the review... and you know your words will be read/heard by lots of Smash fans, at least do a bit of research first! Maybe instead of thinking "Smash sucks, I don't think there's anything deep at all here", maybe you could ask "hmm... last time I played Smash, I found it to be fairly button-mashy. I wonder how the gameplay has evolved over the course of these last 6 years?"
Granted, this is assuming the person doesn't *want* to ignite a flame under Smash fans, which is where I go back to my "bad journalism" point.
Oh, and about Tekken... trust me, I don't like it much either. However, there's a hugely deep game there; many of my Street Fighter friends also play Tekken at a pretty capable level. It's not for me, but I would never write a review and say that Tekken is, at its core, a button masher. That's simply not true, and readily available evidence (Youtube, etc) supports it.
People who say this about Smash ("the way the game is played in high-level tournaments is not for me, and when I play with friends it is mostly a button-masher") I can respect, because at least they kind of realize that there is a game deeper than they choose to play it. And, for the 500,000 people who will read their review, surely at least 1 of those people would probably appreciate this objective comment. But to claim that Smash can't be played at a high level... that, at its core, there's nothing more you can do than just button-mash and flail around, is extremely ignorant.
XenoScholar on
Check out my demonstration of the Street Fighter 4 hard trial combos, showing hands on the joystick, on my Youtube channel!
Current characters done: Ryu, Dan, C. Viper
Xbox Live: Infilament
The vast majority of reviewers know nothing of the real depth of the game. But that works out well because neither does anyone who will actually be basing their purchase on the review scores. Hardcore Smash fans would write terrible reviews.
And, to CaspianX, I don't really know who it was that made that comment in the 1up podcast. I understand some people have a beef with the Smash franchise... and if you don't like it, I suppose that's cool. But when you're working on a podcast devoted largely to Smash, or you're writing the review... and you know your words will be read/heard by lots of Smash fans, at least do a bit of research first! Maybe instead of thinking "Smash sucks, I don't think there's anything deep at all here", maybe you could ask "hmm... last time I played Smash, I found it to be fairly button-mashy. I wonder how the gameplay has evolved over the course of these last 6 years?"
Granted, this is assuming the person doesn't *want* to ignite a flame under Smash fans, which is where I go back to my "bad journalism" point.
Oh, and about Tekken... trust me, I don't like it much either. However, there's a hugely deep game there; many of my Street Fighter friends also play Tekken at a pretty capable level. It's not for me, but I would never write a review and say that Tekken is, at its core, a button masher. That's simply not true, and readily available evidence (Youtube, etc) supports it.
Firstly, I think that the 1UP crew frowns on the idea of videogame "journalism" in general. Hey, don't ask me - as far as I'm concerned, it's some sort of anti-establishment "we're too cool for that" thing. Second of all, these guys weren't critiquing the game in any serious manner, they were shooting the shit. That's what 1UP does on their podcasts - they just chat up the topic. And I kind of think that, in that kinda' context, research just doesn't seem appropriate.
Also, and I can't believe this isn't more obvious, but we're talking about a game where you have Mario fighting Pikachu in wacky-crazy levels using wacky-crazy items. Most people undoubtedly look at this in the same light as a Mario Party game - as in, it's not designed to be taken seriously, or have any great amount of depth. Does Mario Party have any deep strategy or expert playing techniques? I suppose it's possible, but I don't care, because as far as I'm concerned, it was designed to be a shallow party game to toss in front of the peanut gallery for a bit while we drink beer and laugh at how silly it all is.
Now let's take a step back. Yes, I know that Smash is different. I know that it's deeper. However, I don't think it's fair to expect everyone out there, or even every game reviewer, to know that such a deeper game exists. Arguably, Sakurai never expected anything along the lines of SHFFL strategies and wavedashing. From all outward appearances, Smash really is just a kooky fun game with a bunch of Nintendo characters beating each other up. The fact that it has evolved into something more speaks to the quality of game design that has been poured into the product.
As for Tekken, yeah, I know it's deeper. I figure as much from all the raves the series gets. I still don't care, because I think it is an overrated piece of shit. That's just my opinion, and I know that opinions vary, but... well, there it is.
Is there a website that has all the ways to unlock the brawl chracters and correctly? Because all the possibilities seem to scattered and i need to find the most convinient ways to unlock characters.
That thing is the weirdest I've seen in a long time. I can't stop watching it.
It's some sort of bizarre Japanese meme. Certainly not the weirdest I've seen in a while, but strange to be sure, if only for it's funny music and zero context.
The vast majority of reviewers know nothing of the real depth of the game. But that works out well because neither does anyone who will actually be basing their purchase on the review scores. Hardcore Smash fans would write terrible reviews.
hence the extremely bad IGN character "show cases"
Isn't reviewing a review you haven't read yet kind of like reviewing a game you haven't played yet?
Not when subpar reviews are released near constantly by these people with nonsensical reasons for docking points and other bullshit tossed in. The equivalent would be if a game was released every day only slightly different each time: you could probably review the next day's game based off of today's.
So, reviewers are allowed to give bad reviews to Madden games without playing them now?
So, reviewers are allowed to give bad reviews to Madden games without playing them now?
That's not constant enough, technically, but yes. Yes they can.
Opty on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2008
If a random number generator has been running for the past five years every day and has come out with 8 every time, you're not a moron for expecting an 8 tomorrow.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
the retronaught thing wasn't actually too bad. An interesting perspective, at the very least.
I tend to get more "worked up" about ignorance than I should, because in general, the internet is an extremely ignorant place, and I hate ignorance. When it comes to ignorance about a game I love, I guess it just affects me more.
If IGN gives the game 8.5 or something, I'm sure everyone will be able to easily identify the dumb parts of the review, but it won't really affect my purchase or enjoyment of the game. It will, however, irritate me.
I asked this question last thread, though, which is kind of why it's interesting to me... how much do people care about the metascore a game gets? If I really love the game, I just want to see it reviewed well.
XenoScholar on
Check out my demonstration of the Street Fighter 4 hard trial combos, showing hands on the joystick, on my Youtube channel!
Current characters done: Ryu, Dan, C. Viper
Xbox Live: Infilament
nice, DK has no-flinch on a fully charged punch, I can't remember if it was the same in Melee, but it sucked getting interrupted right when you were going to use it.
TelMarine on
3ds: 4983-4935-4575
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2008
It did not have super armor in melee.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I'm pretty sure I remember spiking a many DKs while he was using his Up+B. But you've made me doubt...
-EDIT-
Tested it, and unless there are frames in which he has super armor in melee, I didn't find it. I spiked him a few times during his Up+B with Falco.
So, I really want to get this day of. I however do not have a pre-order or reserve of any kind. Is this bad? Should I get one? There's a high chance I'll being to the midnight launch though. Should I still get a pre-order?
There is a chance (depending on your store) that you won't be able to find a copy on release day. Still, I honestly am not entirely convinced that this chance is probabilistically high enough to warrant stressing out over going in without a pre-order though.
e: Main gripes seem to be long load times following level selection, paltry online functionality (i.e. no leaderboards, no DLC), and a finicky control scheme ill-suited to SSE's platforming single player experience (although the controls handle wonderfully when simply brawling they note).
These points seem valid, but I'm not sure what any of us were expecting. Nintendo is notoriously backwards when it comes to online, loading needs to occur at some point (for contemporary disc-based systems that don't involve installation), and controls cannot logically be optimized for SSE. Still, I'm very happy with a 9.5.
Wow. Higher score than I thought they'd give it, actually. Neato.
edit: Heh heh. I like how Matt managed to work in a little jab at Nintendo for not giving Twilight Princess an orchestrated soundtrack like they said they would.
Posts
Hmm... the thing is, I doubt he reviewed any of the Smash games, and it's not like the Melee tourney scene is anywhere as prominent as, say, the Street Fighter tourney seen or the Starcraft tourney scene. So considering that the guy probably played it for a half hour, decided he didn't like it, and didn't give it much thought beyond that, I don't think it's a huge knock against him that he didn't hear about the tourney scene that evolved much, much later.
Honestly, I'm kinda' the same way with Tekken. Why the hell do people like those games? I dunno, and maybe there's some high-level strategy in those games I don't know about, but for me, they're just button-mashing idiot-fests. But they're not for me, so I stay away from them, and they stay away from me, and we leave it at that.
You have to put it into context. We critique their review that we know nothing about while they review a game that they didn't research fully. So it all balances out
(Note, I'm talking about the IGN review here, so its probably a safe bet.)
You probably could but you risk the chance of being wrong and if you are wrong you will look quite foolish indeed.
That thing is the weirdest I've seen in a long time. I can't stop watching it.
Heaven forbid that anyone look foolish on an internet message board.
It's amazing. Amazingly awesome.
And, to CaspianX, I don't really know who it was that made that comment in the 1up podcast. I understand some people have a beef with the Smash franchise... and if you don't like it, I suppose that's cool. But when you're working on a podcast devoted largely to Smash, or you're writing the review... and you know your words will be read/heard by lots of Smash fans, at least do a bit of research first! Maybe instead of thinking "Smash sucks, I don't think there's anything deep at all here", maybe you could ask "hmm... last time I played Smash, I found it to be fairly button-mashy. I wonder how the gameplay has evolved over the course of these last 6 years?"
Granted, this is assuming the person doesn't *want* to ignite a flame under Smash fans, which is where I go back to my "bad journalism" point.
Oh, and about Tekken... trust me, I don't like it much either. However, there's a hugely deep game there; many of my Street Fighter friends also play Tekken at a pretty capable level. It's not for me, but I would never write a review and say that Tekken is, at its core, a button masher. That's simply not true, and readily available evidence (Youtube, etc) supports it.
People who say this about Smash ("the way the game is played in high-level tournaments is not for me, and when I play with friends it is mostly a button-masher") I can respect, because at least they kind of realize that there is a game deeper than they choose to play it. And, for the 500,000 people who will read their review, surely at least 1 of those people would probably appreciate this objective comment. But to claim that Smash can't be played at a high level... that, at its core, there's nothing more you can do than just button-mash and flail around, is extremely ignorant.
Current characters done: Ryu, Dan, C. Viper
Xbox Live: Infilament
I have 549 Rock Band Drum and 305 Pro Drum FC's
REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS
Did you like the VC secret santa game I got you?
Firstly, I think that the 1UP crew frowns on the idea of videogame "journalism" in general. Hey, don't ask me - as far as I'm concerned, it's some sort of anti-establishment "we're too cool for that" thing. Second of all, these guys weren't critiquing the game in any serious manner, they were shooting the shit. That's what 1UP does on their podcasts - they just chat up the topic. And I kind of think that, in that kinda' context, research just doesn't seem appropriate.
Also, and I can't believe this isn't more obvious, but we're talking about a game where you have Mario fighting Pikachu in wacky-crazy levels using wacky-crazy items. Most people undoubtedly look at this in the same light as a Mario Party game - as in, it's not designed to be taken seriously, or have any great amount of depth. Does Mario Party have any deep strategy or expert playing techniques? I suppose it's possible, but I don't care, because as far as I'm concerned, it was designed to be a shallow party game to toss in front of the peanut gallery for a bit while we drink beer and laugh at how silly it all is.
Now let's take a step back. Yes, I know that Smash is different. I know that it's deeper. However, I don't think it's fair to expect everyone out there, or even every game reviewer, to know that such a deeper game exists. Arguably, Sakurai never expected anything along the lines of SHFFL strategies and wavedashing. From all outward appearances, Smash really is just a kooky fun game with a bunch of Nintendo characters beating each other up. The fact that it has evolved into something more speaks to the quality of game design that has been poured into the product.
As for Tekken, yeah, I know it's deeper. I figure as much from all the raves the series gets. I still don't care, because I think it is an overrated piece of shit. That's just my opinion, and I know that opinions vary, but... well, there it is.
Hey, I have a blog! (Actually being updated again!)
3DS: 0860-3240-2604
It's some sort of bizarre Japanese meme. Certainly not the weirdest I've seen in a while, but strange to be sure, if only for it's funny music and zero context.
hence the extremely bad IGN character "show cases"
If IGN gives the game 8.5 or something, I'm sure everyone will be able to easily identify the dumb parts of the review, but it won't really affect my purchase or enjoyment of the game. It will, however, irritate me.
I asked this question last thread, though, which is kind of why it's interesting to me... how much do people care about the metascore a game gets? If I really love the game, I just want to see it reviewed well.
Current characters done: Ryu, Dan, C. Viper
Xbox Live: Infilament
Apparently he fire meteors in spurts.
If they hit you, it's gonna hurt.
Hey, Houk! NIS games SUCK!
Owie.
And huh, the name 75m suddenly makes so much sense. I'd had no idea. XD
Also there is a Donkey Kong masterpiece, which allows you to start at the 75m stage. Wicked.
Didn't his Up+B spin have it, though?
-EDIT-
Tested it, and unless there are frames in which he has super armor in melee, I didn't find it. I spiked him a few times during his Up+B with Falco.
Going by this update, it's pretty obvious he's bigger, faster and stronger too
Of the DK crew!
Hm. I thought it was awful. I'm okay with Parish expressing his opinion, it was just painful to listen to.
Steam: Car1gt // Tumblr // Facebook // Twitter
There is a chance (depending on your store) that you won't be able to find a copy on release day. Still, I honestly am not entirely convinced that this chance is probabilistically high enough to warrant stressing out over going in without a pre-order though.
AKA: mdraw, dux, milkman
e: Main gripes seem to be long load times following level selection, paltry online functionality (i.e. no leaderboards, no DLC), and a finicky control scheme ill-suited to SSE's platforming single player experience (although the controls handle wonderfully when simply brawling they note).
These points seem valid, but I'm not sure what any of us were expecting. Nintendo is notoriously backwards when it comes to online, loading needs to occur at some point (for contemporary disc-based systems that don't involve installation), and controls cannot logically be optimized for SSE. Still, I'm very happy with a 9.5.
AKA: mdraw, dux, milkman
edit: Heh heh. I like how Matt managed to work in a little jab at Nintendo for not giving Twilight Princess an orchestrated soundtrack like they said they would.