On piracy, and why Stardock kicks bottom

jakonovski

http://forums.galciv2.com/?aid=303512

It's a lengthy article so I won't paste it here, but suffice to say it touches on the points I find important regarding games business and piracy. The most important point being, it's still all about business sense, not about crying after the profit you thought your game "deserved".

Harsh words to be sure, especially considering that game devs are the victims of piracy. But the truth is, if we want a healthy PC gaming scene, one Stardock is worth a dozen emo, wrist slashing "piracy dooms us all" devs.

Recoil42

Really good article. Not completely on the button, for instance, he's ignoring that actual piracy numbers are still way, way higher than they should be, regardless of game, that's an inarguable fact, and it should be something you just say "boo hoo" with and get on with your project -- it is a solid problem.

But he's right in every other category. Excellent read.

Centipeed

It's definitely a refreshing view point. The problem with piracy and video game development in terms of cost is that one follows the other in a cyclically increasing system. One has to decrease before the other does. And I doubt either is going to.

Glal

Recoil42 wrote: »

Really good article. Not completely on the button, for instance, he's ignoring that actual piracy numbers are still way, way higher than they should be, regardless of game, that's an inarguable fact, and it should be something you just say "boo hoo" with and get on with your project -- it is a solid problem.

He doesn't ignore it, he mentions it right at the start. Unless by ignore you mean "not being a drama queen about it".

krapst78

He doesn't seem to be ignoring the piracy numbers, in fact, he seems to have a really good grip on how much of an impact piracy is actually having on his products. He even gives an example of how piracy has a bigger effect in other software genres. He pretty much states upfront that he is talking about sales and not piracy, and how focusing on 'sales' influences the decisions he makes in the design, development, and marketing of their products. His complaint is that some of the other game developers don't make this important adjustment and would rather play the blame game instead of critically assessing and adapting to the market.

subedii

Heck man, he even says that they deliberately don't even bother localising for China because it's pretty much a lost market in terms of sales.

DanHibiki

I'm not sure why he's assuming that game pirates are part of a different market then game buyers.

Recoil42

Eh, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, though admittedly I didn't explain it well. I'm quite aware of what he's saying though, it's been my position for the longest time. I gotta head to a class though, I'll try and post back in a few.

Serpent

DanHibiki wrote: »

I'm not sure why he's assuming that game pirates are part of a different market then game buyers.

because they dont' buy games?

they might as well be 90 year old grandmas

durandal4532

Serpent wrote: »

DanHibiki wrote: »

I'm not sure why he's assuming that game pirates are part of a different market then game buyers.

because they dont' buy games?

they might as well be 90 year old grandmas

Pirates are, at the least, not part of the population buying his game. Even though some might pirate certain games and buy others. He's just stating that ignoring customers and paying attention only to the people who are outright not interested in paying for your product is insane.

I really think Stardock is one of the few companies that gets it, especially given their really quite impressive sales for games that are seemingly niche if you went by the editorial coverage. Instead of trying to beat the pirates, they're trying to please their customers.

subedii

*Waves*

Hi! I am an happy customer!

LewieP

He is right.

Lindsay Lohan

I was especially glad to see the comment about how they could potentially make the graphics look better for high end users but that it's not fair to have the end result be a poorer experience for the majority of users. I think that speaks volumes for PC gaming and I wish more developers would follow suit. It seems most companies believe lower system spec games have to be puzzle/casual games.

Grudge

PC gaming will probably gravitate towards the niche markets, while the big mainstream big budget titles will become increasingly console exclusive.

At least until console DRM is cracked (again), and they end up facing the same problems (again).

durandal4532

But that's counter to his whole point. There's no need to go for a "niche market". The market is plenty large enough if you actually deliver to customers instead of to the hypothetical hordes of demanding hardcore gamers.

Lave II

Shockingly intelligent read.

(I just wish they made Mac games...)

LewieP

I think the point is that a game like 'The Sims' would probably have been considered niche at some point.

Grudge

durandal4532 wrote: »

But that's counter to his whole point. There's no need to go for a "niche market". The market is plenty large enough if you actually deliver to customers instead of to the hypothetical hordes of demanding hardcore gamers.

Big enough for a $1M budget game yes, not for a $20 AAA title.

Hence, "niche market" (compared to big budget mainstream titles).

Ganluan

Herby wrote: »

I was especially glad to see the comment about how they could potentially make the graphics look better for high end users but that it's not fair to have the end result be a poorer experience for the majority of users. I think that speaks volumes for PC gaming and I wish more developers would follow suit. It seems most companies believe lower system spec games have to be puzzle/casual games.

World of Warcraft is a prime example of how lowered specs can bring in a lot more people. How other developers continue to ignore this is baffling.

jakonovski

Speaking as someone whose main PC is a POS laptop, Stardock's games are a godsend. I'm as useful to most PC devs as a pirate, because I buy practically nothing. Incidentally, with the 360 I'm worse than a pirate, I trade games with local gamers. My last full price purchase was Mass Effect in December, which I traded for Orange Box, which I traded for Call of Duty 4, etc.

Whiniest Man On Earth

Watch me go buy Sins of a Solar Empire because of how smart that article is.

Just watch me.

durandal4532

Grudge wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

But that's counter to his whole point. There's no need to go for a "niche market". The market is plenty large enough if you actually deliver to customers instead of to the hypothetical hordes of demanding hardcore gamers.

Big enough for a $1M budget game yes, not for a $20 AAA title.

Hence, "niche market" (compared to big budget mainstream titles).

If the mainstream titles are underselling the niche titles, then how exactly are they the mainstream?

And I mean, if the market apparently doesn't respond well to these incredibly costly games, why the hell are people making them?

Why not make something that can actually be easily enjoyed by a large customer base? Like he said, it's your own fault if you need to grab 15% of the total market in order to break even.

Rook

Grudge wrote: »

PC gaming will probably gravitate towards the niche markets, while the big mainstream big budget titles will become increasingly console exclusive.

At least until console DRM is cracked (again), and they end up facing the same problems (again).

Not really. I mean if you're making a big budget title, and it costs comparatively little to push it onto PC, why would you pass up on an extra 10-20% sales revenue?

Tim James

What did he mean about not designing for the Chinese market? Is it just localization, like another poster mentioned above, or do the Chinese really love certain genres?

durandal4532

I think it's more the fact that in China, the average price paid for a game is -$50.

jakonovski

Minus fifty dollars?

Tim James

durandal4532 wrote: »

I think it's more the fact that in China, the average price paid for a game is -$50.

No, what does designing for the Chinese market mean? Who spends $10M to make a game for China? What is that all about?

Threepio

The guys at Ironclad were passionately anti-DRM. I interviewed them a few weeks back and they were very clear about why they went with Stardock:

from the link above wrote:

It's been difficult to get a copy of the game here in Canada, which brings me to the issue of piracy. You've mentioned that you're not interested in executing a policy of DRM and that you trust your users. The game, however, was available by pirated means on launch dates. I've never seen this before now - but users of these sites are actually appealing to people download the game to actually purchase the game.


Blair: We've seen it, we were following it. People torrent it, they play it and they buy it - and we receive emails from people in some of the worst spots for piracy in the world saying that they've payed the equivalent of $165 to get the game. I think people have come to the conclusion that the game is worth supporting. We're both small companies - Stardock and Ironclad. We're supporting a no DRM policy, we've put out a quality product, it's relatively stable, it works out of the box, it's great fun... I mean, if you don't support it then there's no hope for the industry.

Craig: It's interesting - when you listen to people they say "we're not criminals, it's the big corporations putting out shoddy product who are criminals." That doesn't justify software piracy, but they do have a point to a certain degree. Stardock in particular has earned a lot of respect from users who might, in other cases, pirate a game but because of the quality of the product and the policies behind it choose to buy the game. They don't treat their customers like criminals.

Steven: I get the sense from some of the feedback that we've received that some purchasing decisions have hinged on our choice not to use DRM. That was a deciding factor in their ultimate decision to buy it. We may lose some sales to piracy, but I think our very fair stand on DRM and an end users right to a secure, hassle free experience has brought in as many new customers as those who have chosen to pirate it.

Craig: We've received emails from people who have said "I don't know much about your game, but I'm buying it because I like your policy on DRM"

Blair: There are people out there who are so anti-DRM that they're purchasing our game based on supporting the principle. It makes me feel proud that we're able to move in that direction.

It's an attitude like that that makes me a customer without a second thought.

durandal4532

To answer both questions: Yes, minus fifty dollars. In China there's a large internet fetish community that gets off on giving people pirated games. They pay full price to see a few pictures of your happy face upon reception of a hotly anticipated game.

And I can only imagine he doesn't mean "Designing" as in creating a game specifically to be sold only in China. He means that the cost of localization, promotion, and production needed to sell in China is never offset by sales.

Grudge

durandal4532 wrote: »

Grudge wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

But that's counter to his whole point. There's no need to go for a "niche market". The market is plenty large enough if you actually deliver to customers instead of to the hypothetical hordes of demanding hardcore gamers.

Big enough for a $1M budget game yes, not for a $20 AAA title.

Hence, "niche market" (compared to big budget mainstream titles).

If the mainstream titles are underselling the niche titles, then how exactly are they the mainstream?

And I mean, if the market apparently doesn't respond well to these incredibly costly games, why the hell are people making them?

Why not make something that can actually be easily enjoyed by a large customer base? Like he said, it's your own fault if you need to grab 15% of the total market in order to break even.

Underselling on the PC platform, yes. But most mainstream titles are multi-platform or console exclusive.

And yes indeed, people won't be making them for much longer. I don't think that Crytek will be making any more PC exclusive big budget titles, for example.

The trick is to create a game on a small budget that still appeal to a large audience. And historically the way the industry have tried to appeal to a large audience is to make a huge budget games in the same way that Hollywood are producing huge budget mainstream action flicks.

That strategy obviously isn't viable anymore (at least on the PC platform).

(and yes I am aware of the Sims and WoW, which are (debatedly) not huge budget games, but they are exceptions to the rule rather than typical)

ChewyWaffles

It's an attitude like that that makes me a customer without a second thought.

Indeed, it's such a breath of fresh air to see this attitude in a game company that I didn't hesitate to buy Sins (nor GalCiv2 a while ago). I want to support companies who treat their customers as customers and not would-be pirates.

DanHibiki

durandal4532 wrote: »

Serpent wrote: »

DanHibiki wrote: »

I'm not sure why he's assuming that game pirates are part of a different market then game buyers.

because they dont' buy games?

they might as well be 90 year old grandmas

Pirates are, at the least, not part of the population buying his game. Even though some might pirate certain games and buy others. He's just stating that ignoring customers and paying attention only to the people who are outright not interested in paying for your product is insane.

but it's basically the same demographic. The dividing factor is a platform that is either easy to pirate (PC games and hand held consoles) or platforms that are more difficult or impractical to pirate on (home consoles or on-line games).

In the end there are ways to entice even pirates to buy games by making it either more impractical with on-line functionality and gameplay or with cheaper direct sales from on-line stores(such as Orange Box on steam).

Having copy protection is on the other hand is pointless as he said. It's sometimes easier to pirate the game and crack it then to buy it and try to install it with all the copy protection.

Arrath

I've bought GalCiv (I/II) in the past, and Sins recently because they are good games, without knowing about their DRM stance. This news has me looking through their download service for other games I might like just because I like it so much.

Rakai

Grudge wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

Grudge wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

But that's counter to his whole point. There's no need to go for a "niche market". The market is plenty large enough if you actually deliver to customers instead of to the hypothetical hordes of demanding hardcore gamers.

Big enough for a $1M budget game yes, not for a $20 AAA title.

Hence, "niche market" (compared to big budget mainstream titles).

If the mainstream titles are underselling the niche titles, then how exactly are they the mainstream?

And I mean, if the market apparently doesn't respond well to these incredibly costly games, why the hell are people making them?

Why not make something that can actually be easily enjoyed by a large customer base? Like he said, it's your own fault if you need to grab 15% of the total market in order to break even.

Underselling on the PC platform, yes. But most mainstream titles are multi-platform or console exclusive.

And yes indeed, people won't be making them for much longer. I don't think that Crytek will be making any more PC exclusive big budget titles, for example.

The trick is to create a game on a small budget that still appeal to a large audience. And historically the way the industry have tried to appeal to a large audience is to make a huge budget games in the same way that Hollywood are producing huge budget mainstream action flicks.

That strategy obviously isn't viable anymore (at least on the PC platform).

(and yes I am aware of the Sims and WoW, which are (debatedly) not huge budget games, but they are exceptions to the rule rather than typical)

Just thought I'd point out, Sins of a Solar Empire outsold mainstream titles that were already been out for months for when it was released. Its total sales still pale in comparison.

apotheos

How does a game sell 300k units and make 8 figures in revenue assuming it costs less than $100?

Rakai

apotheos wrote: »

How does a game sell 300k units and make 8 figures in revenue assuming it costs less than $100?

300k x $50 = 15,000,000 total revenue generated although a lot of it doesn't go to the publisher/developer.

apotheos

Oh boy epic fail at math over here.

Rook

Rakai wrote: »

Grudge wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

Grudge wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

But that's counter to his whole point. There's no need to go for a "niche market". The market is plenty large enough if you actually deliver to customers instead of to the hypothetical hordes of demanding hardcore gamers.

Big enough for a $1M budget game yes, not for a $20 AAA title.

Hence, "niche market" (compared to big budget mainstream titles).

If the mainstream titles are underselling the niche titles, then how exactly are they the mainstream?

And I mean, if the market apparently doesn't respond well to these incredibly costly games, why the hell are people making them?

Why not make something that can actually be easily enjoyed by a large customer base? Like he said, it's your own fault if you need to grab 15% of the total market in order to break even.

Underselling on the PC platform, yes. But most mainstream titles are multi-platform or console exclusive.

And yes indeed, people won't be making them for much longer. I don't think that Crytek will be making any more PC exclusive big budget titles, for example.

The trick is to create a game on a small budget that still appeal to a large audience. And historically the way the industry have tried to appeal to a large audience is to make a huge budget games in the same way that Hollywood are producing huge budget mainstream action flicks.

That strategy obviously isn't viable anymore (at least on the PC platform).

(and yes I am aware of the Sims and WoW, which are (debatedly) not huge budget games, but they are exceptions to the rule rather than typical)

Just thought I'd point out, Sins of a Solar Empire outsold mainstream titles that were already been out for months for when it was released. Its total sales still pale in comparison.

Also Crysis sold a million copies in under 3 months, I think EA and Crytek are more than happy with that.

subedii

Rook wrote: »

Rakai wrote: »

Grudge wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

Grudge wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

But that's counter to his whole point. There's no need to go for a "niche market". The market is plenty large enough if you actually deliver to customers instead of to the hypothetical hordes of demanding hardcore gamers.

Big enough for a $1M budget game yes, not for a $20 AAA title.

Hence, "niche market" (compared to big budget mainstream titles).

If the mainstream titles are underselling the niche titles, then how exactly are they the mainstream?

And I mean, if the market apparently doesn't respond well to these incredibly costly games, why the hell are people making them?

Why not make something that can actually be easily enjoyed by a large customer base? Like he said, it's your own fault if you need to grab 15% of the total market in order to break even.

Underselling on the PC platform, yes. But most mainstream titles are multi-platform or console exclusive.

And yes indeed, people won't be making them for much longer. I don't think that Crytek will be making any more PC exclusive big budget titles, for example.

The trick is to create a game on a small budget that still appeal to a large audience. And historically the way the industry have tried to appeal to a large audience is to make a huge budget games in the same way that Hollywood are producing huge budget mainstream action flicks.

That strategy obviously isn't viable anymore (at least on the PC platform).

(and yes I am aware of the Sims and WoW, which are (debatedly) not huge budget games, but they are exceptions to the rule rather than typical)

Just thought I'd point out, Sins of a Solar Empire outsold mainstream titles that were already been out for months for when it was released. Its total sales still pale in comparison.

Also Crysis sold a million copies in under 3 months, I think EA and Crytek are more than happy with that.

Well EA certainly said it exceeded their sales expectations. And it's not as if they're in the business of publishing games to lose money, so I presume that's a good thing.

Grudge

Oh, it must have picked up the pace after the rather disappointing launch then:

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/12/14/crysis-sales-in-crisis-ut3-gets-fragged-too/

I stand corrected.

Magus`

One of the biggest issues I have with PC gaming is how scattershot it is. Games are often rushed, filled with bugs (some that never get worked out, despite how many people buy the fucking game).

Like I recently purchased TQ off of Steam, fully patched and the game STILL has a ton of issues. They really need to standardize their shit similar to the consoles if they wanna increase revenue.

And for the love of god stop making games for hardware that doesn't exist yet.