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Being an atheist myself, I went to church for quite a while about a year ago. I never claimed to be Christian nor removed the label of atheist. So why did I go to church? Well, simple. I have an open mind. I don't think that anyone is right when it comes to religion. I don't believe there is a God nor a higher power, but I don't have such a close mind that I'm not willing to consider other possibilities that will disprove my thinking.
Have I been offended as an atheist? Yes. By whom, you may ask. Christians. Though I do not believe in heaven or hell, I do know that heaven is where good people go and bad people go to hell. Simple enough, though a bit more complex in the eyes of a Christian, but that's about how it's summed up. So knowing this, for a Christian to call me a God-less heathen fuck and express their deep despise of "my kind" and threaten me with eternal damnation in hell, I kind of take offense to that. Mainly because of the hypocrosy that the statement is laced with.
And yes, the above statement was said to me, though not the exact words, the general concept is there.
Being an atheist myself, I went to church for quite a while about a year ago. I never claimed to be Christian nor removed the label of atheist. So why did I go to church? Well, simple. I have an open mind. I don't think that anyone is right when it comes to religion. I don't believe there is a God nor a higher power, but I don't have such a close mind that I'm not willing to consider other possibilities that will disprove my thinking.
Have I been offended as an atheist? Yes. By whom, you may ask. Christians. Though I do not believe in heaven or hell, I do know that heaven is where good people go and bad people go to hell. Simple enough, though a bit more complex in the eyes of a Christian, but that's about how it's summed up. So knowing this, for a Christian to call me a God-less heathen fuck and express their deep despise of "my kind" and threaten me with eternal damnation in hell, I kind of take offense to that. Mainly because of the hypocrosy that the statement is laced with.
And yes, the above statement was said to me, though not the exact words, the general concept is there.
That makes you agnostic, right?
Don't get into that. Seriously.
Personally, I always just use "atheist" for anyone who currently doesn't hold any belief in a religion, because I get annoyed that every non-religious person uses "agnostic" just to make it clear that if Christ our Lord himself came down and brought them bodily to heaven, they'd reconsider. To me, that's not something you really need to make clear.
But it is a semantics argument, which sets D&D aflame.
To answer the initial question, I agree with others when I say I'm offended by the belief that I am inherently amoral or "sad". I work hard to make things better for the people around me, I have morals, and I'm pretty happy.
Edit: Oh and also this legislation is fucking crazy.
Also, Solandra... you probably go to a hippie church. It may, or may not, also be a cult.
By "hippie" I mean free love and in-breeding, so your women have probably slept with everyone, including each other. I hope you like STDs.
Now I dare you to learn from my insults.
Alas, I'm not offended yet, the backwater religious diatribe about my forebears doesn't offend me, either, since it's both true and that world view not something that I particularly believe.
As for the nature of our congregation, there's even a place for "free love" in the UU Polyamory Society, participation is not mandatory, it's simply an interest group. Ours is a Welcoming Congregation, so sexual orientation and the expression thereof isn't a problem, and most UU's, as educated liberals, would know the basics of genetics and if they WERE to engage in close relative reproduction, would certainly have weighed the risks of birth defects prior to conceiving the child.
As for being a hippie church, that probably fits, too, since our Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans group holds a drum circle monthly - as a regular attendee, I can attest that there's no pot or wild orgy afterwards, at least not at the church itself.
I can say with honesty, however, that there is no snake handling, rolling in the aisles, speaking in tongues or exorcism, largely for reasons of insurance and liability. :P
For the community and resources available. A place to meet with people regularly that's not work, a place to arrange play-dates and find baby-sitters, to develop friends and relationships with an extended network of people, to be involved with charity and community, and so forth. Yes you can find all of that outside of a church, but it's conveniently packaged. People who don't need/aren't interested in that sort of thing either don't go or go for other reasons.
Actually, it depends; if you can show it's political, according to Cohen v. California, you could wear it.
So... supporting the party for obscene speech?
Not exactly. Well, maybe.
Read the case. It's a great one if you're a free speech fan.
I did pretty much the moment I saw the v. in there. I think a case could be made for it though I think it'd be more of a technicality than anything else.
Actually, it depends; if you can show it's political, according to Cohen v. California, you could wear it.
So... supporting the party for obscene speech?
Not exactly. Well, maybe.
Read the case. It's a great one if you're a free speech fan.
I did pretty much the moment I saw the v. in there. I think a case could be made for it though I think it'd be more of a technicality than anything else.
Being an atheist myself, I went to church for quite a while about a year ago. I never claimed to be Christian nor removed the label of atheist. So why did I go to church? Well, simple. I have an open mind. I don't think that anyone is right when it comes to religion. I don't believe there is a God nor a higher power, but I don't have such a close mind that I'm not willing to consider other possibilities that will disprove my thinking.
Have I been offended as an atheist? Yes. By whom, you may ask. Christians. Though I do not believe in heaven or hell, I do know that heaven is where good people go and bad people go to hell. Simple enough, though a bit more complex in the eyes of a Christian, but that's about how it's summed up. So knowing this, for a Christian to call me a God-less heathen fuck and express their deep despise of "my kind" and threaten me with eternal damnation in hell, I kind of take offense to that. Mainly because of the hypocrosy that the statement is laced with.
And yes, the above statement was said to me, though not the exact words, the general concept is there.
That makes you agnostic, right?
You're not the first person to have said something like this to me. The reason I call myself atheist is because, based on current beliefs and ideas shown to me, there is no proof of God existing or some other higher power. While I don't completely deny the possibility that my thinking is wrong, I don't think that makes me agnostic, because agnostics believe there is something, or they hope there is something, but they just don't know what. And this doesn't offend me as an atheist, so scratch calling them agnostic off the list. :P
Basically a convo would go like this:
Them: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "No."
T: "Do you believe of a possiblity that God exists?"
M: "No."
T: "Do you think there is a possibility you are wrong and can believe in a God."
M: "Yes, with the right evidence, I may eventually believe."
I guess it is possible to offend atheists by telling them they are immoral, I hadn't thought of that.
But this isn't just atheists, this is anyone. It offends them as a person, not as an atheist, I think. But it will depend on the context. I could go up to a Christian and tell them they are immoral because they believe in the death penalty, but is that offensive to them as a Christian or just as a person in general? Because I could say the same thing to another atheist, or someone of any other religion/belief structure.
Do we need to clarify the agnostic/atheist thing again? I'm pretty sure the way it goes, or at least the way I call myself, is that an agnostic goes entirely on the evidence and says there's no way to be 100% sure of anything, and an atheist takes the absence of higher powers as absolute a fact as religious people believe that they do exist.
Edit: Like, if God(s) himself did come down and start telling people what's up, I assume atheists would jump to every conclusion except it being God.
Lets not sidetrack ourselves here, since atheism vs agnosticism always ends in what is effectively a debate into whether green is more yellow, or more blue.
As for offending an atheist I'm often vaguely offended when people assert that the reason I don't believe in Christianity is because I hate it, and other Christian people. I think everyone has the right to believe what they want, and don't assert that I am definately right on the subject but it does irritate me when someone says "How did God piss you off to make you not believe in him?"
Oh yes, and you could tell me how you think god(and thus you) hates abortions and thinks women who get them are evil, and people should carry children to term even in the most absurd of cases. That will offend most atheists.
While I don't completely deny the possibility that my thinking is wrong, I don't think that makes me agnostic, because agnostics believe there is something, or they hope there is something, but they just don't know what.
Atheists hope that there is something out there too; they're just too cynical to actual believe that hoping for something automagically makes it true.
How do you offend an atheist?
Call him an agnostic. Agnostics are just atheists who are too cowardly to use accurate labels.
generally people get most offended about their beliefs being questioned if they have doubts about that belief. If someone walked up to you and said with the utmost certainty that the sun would refuse to rise tomorrow you wouldn't get offended or even try arguing with them. You'd just say to yourself, "what a loony tune" and go back about your buisness. christians are most definitely easier to rile up because it requires some effort or "faith" to subscribe to their belief system so you strike a more sensitive chord when you question it. you're forcing them to think thoughts they don't want to think and try with great effort to push out of their minds.
Of course anyone would get offended by being called "immoral," but it's when this label gets slapped on you only after and only because you call yourself an atheist. It's amazing the about-face some people will make just after learning this one piece of information (albeit a fairly important piece, to me), even if my behavior stays entirely the same. If I've done nothing to the "accuser," if you will, and continue not doing anything, that would seem "immoral," they often still trot right down the judgment path.
Really, there's not much that I find to be offended about in regards to my [lack of] faith. Rather, it's thing just getting irritating, like the examples of "Well aren't you just an agnostic?" and "Atheism is a religion." Those definitely trigger my eye-roll-effect, but I'm not going to run to the courts over it -- I just don't have conversations with those people any more! It's when the legislation starts being ruled against our favor (subjective: I'm referring to ID in schools, and comments like Bush Sr. [which I know isn't legislation, but who knows where it could lead]) that the problem appears.
However, just because you don't see atheists getting personally offended (rather than offended at the decline of intelligence and reasoning in our society) doesn't mean we shouldn't be protected, too.
Simply assert that by not following your religion, I am amoral or immoral or evil or anything along those lines.
That's it right there. Being told "you can't really be an atheist, you're too much of a good person" is a very backhanded "compliment" worthy of offense.
I get mildly offended when I am in a public place (like a stadium) and they ask for us to pray for something or another.
They shouldn't assume that everyone present is Christian.
I've ALWAYS wanted to go into a public place and pray to Allah or something. A place where a public speaker who normally would pray to the Christian God. So something like a sporting even of the sort. Then when the Christians get riled up you can retort with, "You pray to your God in front of others who may be of a different religion, I'm doing the same."
Does thinking stuff like this make me a terrible person? :P
The only thing that really offends me as an atheist is when certain North American Christians claim that they are being persecuted for their beliefs. It's just such a ludicrous, ignorant, insensitive claim.
So if it's illegal to offend members of a religion....
Should we ban religious books?
The Quran, for example, openly and repeatedly says non-believers are worthy of being tortured forever in hell, that pagans are stupid and evil, that Jews and Christians should not be trusted and should not be your friends in any circumstances. The Old Testament says that nonbelievers deserve to be killed if they try to share their beliefs; the New Testament compares nonbelievers to swine, and Paul makes a number of colorful slurs, including joking about a pro-circumcision sect going all the way with their circumcision and chopping their whole dicks off.
Religious scriptures are more offensive to non-members—and often times to members!—than almost anything someone could print in a paper or say in a pub today. I almost hope this law does get put on the books so we can see the Quran and the Bible on trial for offensiveness.
You could get around the law by insulting one religion with another religion, and then if someone tries to get offended about it, declare it offensive to the source religion.
:P
Incenjucar on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
edited March 2008
Morality definition discussion for you _j_tards has been moved to its own thread.
Back home we have an offence in the Criminal Code called Blasphemous Libel (s123) - but I don't think it has been used for a long time - there was a debate about repealing it a few months back but I don't know where it has gone. Here it is for your viewing pleasure
s123 Blasphemous libel
(1) Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year who publishes any blasphemous libel.
(2) Whether any particular published matter is or is not a blasphemous libel is a question of fact.
(3) It is not an offence against this section to express in good faith and in decent language, or to attempt to establish by arguments used in good faith and conveyed in decent language, any opinion whatever on any religious subject.
(4) No one shall be prosecuted for an offence against this section without the leave of the Attorney-General, who before giving leave may make such inquiries as he thinks fit.
I think that atheists are defined by being offended by religious beliefs. Atheism isn't a belief system, it's the rejection of one.
The best thing you can do to offend an atheist is live your life following close-minded, backwards-thinking dogma without question. This also works on scientists and agnostics.
My aunt found out one of my cousin's friends was atheist and demanded he leave the house that instant lest he contaminate her household. I'm pretty sure that was offensive.
I consider myself agnostic, and I simply try not to get offended to most things. Or at least, never show that you're offended because if you do, then someone knows what buttons to push to get you riled up and that's never good if someone knows what sets you off.
I don't mind that people believe in god, but why do they gotta get all offended at the mere suggestion that there might not be a god. No one can prove any of this shit. so why get worked up over it?
To me that just proves their insecurities but to be fair, this insecurity can apply both ways to god-fearing people and athiests alike. There could be a god...but then again, maybe not, I've got better things to do than get all worked up every time someone says something that doesn't conform to my personal outlook of existence.
So if it's illegal to offend members of a religion....
Should we ban religious books?
The Quran, for example, openly and repeatedly says non-believers are worthy of being tortured forever in hell, that pagans are stupid and evil, that Jews and Christians should not be trusted and should not be your friends in any circumstances. The Old Testament says that nonbelievers deserve to be killed if they try to share their beliefs; the New Testament compares nonbelievers to swine, and Paul makes a number of colorful slurs, including joking about a pro-circumcision sect going all the way with their circumcision and chopping their whole dicks off.
Religious scriptures are more offensive to non-members—and often times to members!—than almost anything someone could print in a paper or say in a pub today. I almost hope this law does get put on the books so we can see the Quran and the Bible on trial for offensiveness.
It's not like he singled them out. Anti-Abrahamic religion, maybe?
So if it's illegal to offend members of a religion....
Should we ban religious books?
The Quran, for example, openly and repeatedly says non-believers are worthy of being tortured forever in hell, that pagans are stupid and evil, that Jews and Christians should not be trusted and should not be your friends in any circumstances. The Old Testament says that nonbelievers deserve to be killed if they try to share their beliefs; the New Testament compares nonbelievers to swine, and Paul makes a number of colorful slurs, including joking about a pro-circumcision sect going all the way with their circumcision and chopping their whole dicks off.
Religious scriptures are more offensive to non-members—and often times to members!—than almost anything someone could print in a paper or say in a pub today. I almost hope this law does get put on the books so we can see the Quran and the Bible on trial for offensiveness.
It's not like he singled them out. Anti-Abrahamic religion, maybe?
I thought there was some kind of "People of the Book" clause in Islamic teachings? That stated that Muslims were supposed to get along alright with Christians/Jews, or something like that.
Posts
Read the case. It's a great one if you're a free speech fan.
I'm a heathen. I don't think I'm allowed to pray or something.
Baby Jesus is crying for my soul.
Personally, I always just use "atheist" for anyone who currently doesn't hold any belief in a religion, because I get annoyed that every non-religious person uses "agnostic" just to make it clear that if Christ our Lord himself came down and brought them bodily to heaven, they'd reconsider. To me, that's not something you really need to make clear.
But it is a semantics argument, which sets D&D aflame.
To answer the initial question, I agree with others when I say I'm offended by the belief that I am inherently amoral or "sad". I work hard to make things better for the people around me, I have morals, and I'm pretty happy.
Edit: Oh and also this legislation is fucking crazy.
Call him a cunt.
Call him/her a nilist
"This is where I say something profound and you bow, so lets just skip to your part."
Alas, I'm not offended yet, the backwater religious diatribe about my forebears doesn't offend me, either, since it's both true and that world view not something that I particularly believe.
As for the nature of our congregation, there's even a place for "free love" in the UU Polyamory Society, participation is not mandatory, it's simply an interest group. Ours is a Welcoming Congregation, so sexual orientation and the expression thereof isn't a problem, and most UU's, as educated liberals, would know the basics of genetics and if they WERE to engage in close relative reproduction, would certainly have weighed the risks of birth defects prior to conceiving the child.
As for being a hippie church, that probably fits, too, since our Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans group holds a drum circle monthly - as a regular attendee, I can attest that there's no pot or wild orgy afterwards, at least not at the church itself.
I can say with honesty, however, that there is no snake handling, rolling in the aisles, speaking in tongues or exorcism, largely for reasons of insurance and liability. :P
Tell him you believe in God.
For the community and resources available. A place to meet with people regularly that's not work, a place to arrange play-dates and find baby-sitters, to develop friends and relationships with an extended network of people, to be involved with charity and community, and so forth. Yes you can find all of that outside of a church, but it's conveniently packaged. People who don't need/aren't interested in that sort of thing either don't go or go for other reasons.
I guess it is possible to offend atheists by telling them they are immoral, I hadn't thought of that.
You're not the first person to have said something like this to me. The reason I call myself atheist is because, based on current beliefs and ideas shown to me, there is no proof of God existing or some other higher power. While I don't completely deny the possibility that my thinking is wrong, I don't think that makes me agnostic, because agnostics believe there is something, or they hope there is something, but they just don't know what. And this doesn't offend me as an atheist, so scratch calling them agnostic off the list. :P
Basically a convo would go like this:
Them: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "No."
T: "Do you believe of a possiblity that God exists?"
M: "No."
T: "Do you think there is a possibility you are wrong and can believe in a God."
M: "Yes, with the right evidence, I may eventually believe."
But this isn't just atheists, this is anyone. It offends them as a person, not as an atheist, I think. But it will depend on the context. I could go up to a Christian and tell them they are immoral because they believe in the death penalty, but is that offensive to them as a Christian or just as a person in general? Because I could say the same thing to another atheist, or someone of any other religion/belief structure.
Edit: Like, if God(s) himself did come down and start telling people what's up, I assume atheists would jump to every conclusion except it being God.
As for offending an atheist I'm often vaguely offended when people assert that the reason I don't believe in Christianity is because I hate it, and other Christian people. I think everyone has the right to believe what they want, and don't assert that I am definately right on the subject but it does irritate me when someone says "How did God piss you off to make you not believe in him?"
Oh yes, and you could tell me how you think god(and thus you) hates abortions and thinks women who get them are evil, and people should carry children to term even in the most absurd of cases. That will offend most atheists.
Atheists hope that there is something out there too; they're just too cynical to actual believe that hoping for something automagically makes it true.
Call him an agnostic. Agnostics are just atheists who are too cowardly to use accurate labels.
They shouldn't assume that everyone present is Christian.
Really, there's not much that I find to be offended about in regards to my [lack of] faith. Rather, it's thing just getting irritating, like the examples of "Well aren't you just an agnostic?" and "Atheism is a religion." Those definitely trigger my eye-roll-effect, but I'm not going to run to the courts over it -- I just don't have conversations with those people any more! It's when the legislation starts being ruled against our favor (subjective: I'm referring to ID in schools, and comments like Bush Sr. [which I know isn't legislation, but who knows where it could lead]) that the problem appears.
However, just because you don't see atheists getting personally offended (rather than offended at the decline of intelligence and reasoning in our society) doesn't mean we shouldn't be protected, too.
I've ALWAYS wanted to go into a public place and pray to Allah or something. A place where a public speaker who normally would pray to the Christian God. So something like a sporting even of the sort. Then when the Christians get riled up you can retort with, "You pray to your God in front of others who may be of a different religion, I'm doing the same."
Does thinking stuff like this make me a terrible person? :P
Should we ban religious books?
The Quran, for example, openly and repeatedly says non-believers are worthy of being tortured forever in hell, that pagans are stupid and evil, that Jews and Christians should not be trusted and should not be your friends in any circumstances. The Old Testament says that nonbelievers deserve to be killed if they try to share their beliefs; the New Testament compares nonbelievers to swine, and Paul makes a number of colorful slurs, including joking about a pro-circumcision sect going all the way with their circumcision and chopping their whole dicks off.
Religious scriptures are more offensive to non-members—and often times to members!—than almost anything someone could print in a paper or say in a pub today. I almost hope this law does get put on the books so we can see the Quran and the Bible on trial for offensiveness.
You could get around the law by insulting one religion with another religion, and then if someone tries to get offended about it, declare it offensive to the source religion.
:P
Those are one and the same.
/dawkins
Thank you Will and sorry Aldo.
Aldo, how is your government going to regulate this law?
s123 Blasphemous libel
(1) Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year who publishes any blasphemous libel.
(2) Whether any particular published matter is or is not a blasphemous libel is a question of fact.
(3) It is not an offence against this section to express in good faith and in decent language, or to attempt to establish by arguments used in good faith and conveyed in decent language, any opinion whatever on any religious subject.
(4) No one shall be prosecuted for an offence against this section without the leave of the Attorney-General, who before giving leave may make such inquiries as he thinks fit.
The best thing you can do to offend an atheist is live your life following close-minded, backwards-thinking dogma without question. This also works on scientists and agnostics.
1) someone sues someone else
2) judges sees if that someone was really offended by what was said to him/her
3) ???
4) settle?
I mean, it's not like we're fining people left and right for yo-mamma-jokes.
OK, I feel offended just reading that.
So is gravity. Where are the proponents of Intelligent Falling?
I don't mind that people believe in god, but why do they gotta get all offended at the mere suggestion that there might not be a god. No one can prove any of this shit. so why get worked up over it?
To me that just proves their insecurities but to be fair, this insecurity can apply both ways to god-fearing people and athiests alike. There could be a god...but then again, maybe not, I've got better things to do than get all worked up every time someone says something that doesn't conform to my personal outlook of existence.
TL,DR: opinions are like assholes...etc
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
It's not like he singled them out. Anti-Abrahamic religion, maybe?
I thought there was some kind of "People of the Book" clause in Islamic teachings? That stated that Muslims were supposed to get along alright with Christians/Jews, or something like that.