You've already assumed that if the DNA matches, the person is a criminal. The omnipotence of DNA evidence in the eye of the people is pretty much a reason enough for me NOT to have such a database, and I'm not even talking about false positives(DNA matching is very solid, in the end).
I have never assumed that, and don't think the general public would either. See above post.
Obviously a poor choice of words as "match against a criminal" sounds pretty convicting to me.
Also, the temptation to use such a database for personal identification sooner or later would be too big to resist.
That's a reasonable point, but I think as long as the people are well aware that the database is fallible, this temptation could be resisted. Who wants to use a faulty database for personal ID?
The database would be said to work 100% without any regard if that's true or not. If there are problems, we'd hear about them 15 years later.
It is, but I think the points it make are specific to observation of actions - surveillance, wiretapping and the like - and not really relevant to DNA records.
Honestly, he was talking about privacy. How can the collection of a giant DNA database not be considerate a privacy breach is beyond me.
You mean the way social security numbers should just be used for taxation purposes?
Fair enough. What else can you reasonably use DNA for? Of course, it's true that even if there's not a lot that can be done with it now, there's always the possibility of what we might discover in the future.
Pretty much answered your own question. AFAIK, the dna collected is not enough to do anything meaningful with it except cross match(somebody correct me I'm wrong), so my fears are associated with future uses of the database. Honestly, when people read a story about how their CC numbers were exposed because of negligence etc, they're pissed off, how would you feel the first time when your DNA along with your name is "unfortunately compromised"?
The database would be said to work 100% without any regard if that's true or not. If there are problems with, we'd hear about them 15 years later.
I wouldn't support a database for which this was true. Depends on the government though. All it takes is for the government to admit to it once and we never have to worry about that again.
Honestly, he was talking about privacy. How can the collection of a giant DNA database not be considerate a privacy breach is beyond me.
There are different kinds of privacy. He was talking about privacy of opinions. The privacy of my DNA is different from the privacy of my opinions, and it's a privacy I'm more willing to sacrifice.
Pretty much answered your own question. AFAIK, the dna collected is not enough to do anything meaningful with it except cross match(somebody correct me I'm wrong), so my fears are associated with future uses of the database. Honestly, when people read a story about how their CC numbers were exposed because of negligence etc, they're pissed off, how would you feel the first time when your DNA along with your name is "unfortunately compromised"?
I wouldn't feel pissed off, but I do think future uses of DNA are a valid concern.
There are different kinds of privacy. He was talking about privacy of opinions. The privacy of my DNA is different from the privacy of my opinions, and it's a privacy I'm more willing to sacrifice.
How about this: They collect your DNA and find that you have some code on Exon X in Gene Y that is common among potential miscreants with 'deviant opinions'. Your privacy of opinions just got fucked in the ass, as the desk jockeys who use the database unfavorably assume your opinions based on your DNA.
Or you just start receiving even more penis enlargement offers because the DNA database information owned by Randy Pinkwood, Ltd. is a cash cow when they sell small portions of it to marketers, and you've been labeled as having the genes for a small dick.
Octoparrot on
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
How about this: They collect your DNA and find that you have some code on Exon X in Gene Y that is common among potential miscreants with 'deviant opinions'. Your privacy of opinions just got fucked in the ass, as the desk jockeys who use the database unfavorably assume your opinions based on your DNA.
Not only is this impossible with current technology, it's most likely impossible in principle.
Yes... take samples of all people who show signs of anger and agression. Compile the DNA and refine the traits down until you have an unstoppable killing machine.
Then take strains of human DNA that show traits of submissiveness and loyalty. Crank up the factories boys.
The data will be released to the wrong people. It will be used for purposes other than what it was originally intended. That's how governments work in the real world, at least from what I've seen.
That internet traffic/email retention database? Yeah, the RIAA/MPAA are already trying to strike deals to get access to it.
Also, I've never really understood why people are so desperate to prevent the government from reading all their mail and email. You don't commit any crimes, and it'll never be a problem. You do commit crimes, and you'll get caught, and how is that a problem? As long as they don't turn into a police state and they keep it private - though admittedly I'm not sure how well they do the latter - they can have my email.
The answer here, for both email and DNA: it's none of their damn business.
"Only guilty people have something to hide. What are you hiding, citizen?"
edit: oh yeah, and then insurance companies will want a finger in the pie too. "Sorry, we see here that you have faulty genes. No payout."
Not only is this impossible with current technology, it's most likely impossible in principle.
You think it's impossible in principle to find a correlating genotype to people exhibiting any antisocial personality disorder they might have in common?
This is a DNA fingerprint database, not a base-pair catalogue. Its only use is identification. Of course they have your DNA sample in a fridge somewhere, but that's never going to become useful on a large scale.
This is a DNA fingerprint database, not a base-pair catalogue. Its only use is identification. Of course they have your DNA sample in a fridge somewhere, but that's never going to become useful on a large scale.
If they have your DNA on record they can do anything they want with it. Sure to the press and the public its just a "fingerprint database" but for all you know they could be building a replacement clone for you that has undying loyalty to the government.
If they have your DNA on record they can do anything they want with it. Sure to the press and the public its just a "fingerprint database" but for all you know they could be building a replacement clone for you that has undying loyalty to the government.
I was being mildly alarmist but this is genius. Some government entity comes during the night in a giant bus, stopping from house to house, swapping you with someone exactly the same but who thinks G.W. is doing a bang up job.
If they have your DNA on record they can do anything they want with it.
But if it's a fingerprint they won't have the DNA on record, just like having the md5 checksum "9e107d9d372bb6826bd81d3542a419d6" doesn't mean you have the 2-gig file that it's a fingerprint of.
Look, I am going to just stick to saying that I don't want you to have my Name/Date of Birth/Place of Residence/etc. That is my right. If I commit a crime, by all means, take it.
Until then, leave me the hell out of your government databases.
:tinfoil hat:
/nod
Seriously. Next step: Minority Report
wawkin on
Talkin to the robbery expert.
"This is where I say something profound and you bow, so lets just skip to your part."
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
Not only is this impossible with current technology, it's most likely impossible in principle.
You think it's impossible in principle to find a correlating genotype to people exhibiting any antisocial personality disorder they might have in common?
You didn't say personality disorder--you said 'deviant opinions.' And yes, I doubt that there are meaningful DNA predictors of whether a person will be a political or social dissident.
Not only is this impossible with current technology, it's most likely impossible in principle.
You think it's impossible in principle to find a correlating genotype to people exhibiting any antisocial personality disorder they might have in common?
You didn't say personality disorder--you said 'deviant opinions.' And yes, I doubt that there are meaningful DNA predictors of whether a person will be a political or social dissident.
The UK government apparently disagrees, given that's why they want the samples in the first place.
I'm still a bit fuzzy on how this will prevent crime. Surely, even at best, it will only serve to identify possible culprits for crimes that have already committed.
Perhaps one of the supporters of the proposition could expand upon that point?
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
You didn't say personality disorder--you said 'deviant opinions.' And yes, I doubt that there are meaningful DNA predictors of whether a person will be a political or social dissident.
The UK government apparently disagrees, given that's why they want the samples in the first place.
They're trying to predict violent crime, not political dissent.
This is a DNA fingerprint database, not a base-pair catalogue. Its only use is identification. Of course they have your DNA sample in a fridge somewhere, but that's never going to become useful on a large scale.
Exactly. Jesus people, it's not like they've got a testube with a little bit of you inside it somewhere. They take your DNA, and read bits of it off in some way. They then encode that information into a number. That number is then stored next to your Name/Social Insurance Number/Birth Certificate ID/whatever in a database. When they test DNA, they check those same bits, encode it into a number and see if it matches anyone in the databases number.
That's it. That's how the whole system works. You people are getting freaked out about shit a DNA database CAN'T DO. It's just gonna be another number attached to the numbers the government already has for you.
This is a DNA fingerprint database, not a base-pair catalogue. Its only use is identification. Of course they have your DNA sample in a fridge somewhere, but that's never going to become useful on a large scale.
Exactly. Jesus people, it's not like they've got a testube with a little bit of you inside it somewhere. They take your DNA, and read bits of it off in some way. They then encode that information into a number. That number is then stored next to your Name/Social Insurance Number/Birth Certificate ID/whatever in a database. When they test DNA, they check those same bits, encode it into a number and see if it matches anyone in the databases number.
That's it. That's how the whole system works. You people are getting freaked out about shit a DNA database CAN'T DO. It's just gonna be another number attached to the numbers the government already has for you.
No we're not. I explicitly said on the previous page that to my knowledge there is NOTHING except identification that could be done with the DNA samples collected. Neither of the points raised in the first 35 posts is invalid because of your statement. Try reading the whole thread next time.
This is a DNA fingerprint database, not a base-pair catalogue. Its only use is identification. Of course they have your DNA sample in a fridge somewhere, but that's never going to become useful on a large scale.
Exactly. Jesus people, it's not like they've got a testube with a little bit of you inside it somewhere. They take your DNA, and read bits of it off in some way. They then encode that information into a number. That number is then stored next to your Name/Social Insurance Number/Birth Certificate ID/whatever in a database. When they test DNA, they check those same bits, encode it into a number and see if it matches anyone in the databases number.
That's it. That's how the whole system works. You people are getting freaked out about shit a DNA database CAN'T DO. It's just gonna be another number attached to the numbers the government already has for you.
No we're not. I explicitly said on the previous page that to my knowledge there is NOTHING except identification that could be done with the DNA samples collected. Neither of the points raised in the first 35 posts is invalid because of your statement. Try reading the whole thread next time.
How about this: They collect your DNA and find that you have some code on Exon X in Gene Y that is common among potential miscreants with 'deviant opinions'. Your privacy of opinions just got fucked in the ass, as the desk jockeys who use the database unfavorably assume your opinions based on your DNA.
Or you just start receiving even more penis enlargement offers because the DNA database information owned by Randy Pinkwood, Ltd. is a cash cow when they sell small portions of it to marketers, and you've been labeled as having the genes for a small dick.
If they have your DNA on record they can do anything they want with it. Sure to the press and the public its just a "fingerprint database" but for all you know they could be building a replacement clone for you that has undying loyalty to the government.
I found 2 within the last page. Maybe you should read more closely, you putz.
In the last 15 posts people have simply repeated already addressed issues in a less articulate way and that was why I referred you to the first 2 pages. You addressing the whole discussion without actually reading it based on the last couple of posts is why I took offence and I'll certainly react the same way next time you do it. In other words. Try to understand why are people actually freaking out before criticising them for not having a basic knowledge about the issue.
In the last 15 posts people have simply repeated already addressed issues in a less articulate way and that was why I referred you to the first 2 pages. You addressing the whole discussion without actually reading it based on the last couple of posts is why I took offence and I'll certainly react the same way next time you do it. In other words. Try to understand why are people actually freaking out before criticising them for not having a basic knowledge about the issue.
I covered it in a different way. Now, unless your a mod or the thread police, kindly STFU.
If everyone's data is on file, and it is acknowledged that the database is occasionally faulty, then you should never be convicted on DNA evidence alone. You'd also have to be linked to the crime in some other way to be convicted...
This is exactly the problem. Would you trust a jury of your peers to understand that? I sure as fuck wouldn't!
Furthermore, I'm not just worried about the odds of me being wrongly convicted. I'm worried about the odds of someone being wrongly convicted by such a system, which are significantly higher.
If everyone's data is on file, and it is acknowledged that the database is occasionally faulty, then you should never be convicted on DNA evidence alone. You'd also have to be linked to the crime in some other way to be convicted...
This is exactly the problem. Would you trust a jury of your peers to understand that? I sure as fuck wouldn't!
Furthermore, I'm not just worried about the odds of me being wrongly convicted. I'm worried about the odds of someone being wrongly convicted by such a system, which are significantly higher.
You still make the assumption that simply having your DNA at the scene is enough to convict you.
I'm still a bit fuzzy on how this will prevent crime. Surely, even at best, it will only serve to identify possible culprits for crimes that have already committed.
Perhaps one of the supporters of the proposition could expand upon that point?
Posts
Obviously a poor choice of words as "match against a criminal" sounds pretty convicting to me.
The database would be said to work 100% without any regard if that's true or not. If there are problems, we'd hear about them 15 years later.
Honestly, he was talking about privacy. How can the collection of a giant DNA database not be considerate a privacy breach is beyond me.
Pretty much answered your own question. AFAIK, the dna collected is not enough to do anything meaningful with it except cross match(somebody correct me I'm wrong), so my fears are associated with future uses of the database. Honestly, when people read a story about how their CC numbers were exposed because of negligence etc, they're pissed off, how would you feel the first time when your DNA along with your name is "unfortunately compromised"?
I wouldn't support a database for which this was true. Depends on the government though. All it takes is for the government to admit to it once and we never have to worry about that again.
There are different kinds of privacy. He was talking about privacy of opinions. The privacy of my DNA is different from the privacy of my opinions, and it's a privacy I'm more willing to sacrifice.
I wouldn't feel pissed off, but I do think future uses of DNA are a valid concern.
"Well we're trying"
How about this: They collect your DNA and find that you have some code on Exon X in Gene Y that is common among potential miscreants with 'deviant opinions'. Your privacy of opinions just got fucked in the ass, as the desk jockeys who use the database unfavorably assume your opinions based on your DNA.
Or you just start receiving even more penis enlargement offers because the DNA database information owned by Randy Pinkwood, Ltd. is a cash cow when they sell small portions of it to marketers, and you've been labeled as having the genes for a small dick.
Not only is this impossible with current technology, it's most likely impossible in principle.
Not physically possible for there to be more.
OMG they know already! /hide
Then take strains of human DNA that show traits of submissiveness and loyalty. Crank up the factories boys.
Clone Army.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
That internet traffic/email retention database? Yeah, the RIAA/MPAA are already trying to strike deals to get access to it.
The answer here, for both email and DNA: it's none of their damn business.
"Only guilty people have something to hide. What are you hiding, citizen?"
edit: oh yeah, and then insurance companies will want a finger in the pie too. "Sorry, we see here that you have faulty genes. No payout."
You think it's impossible in principle to find a correlating genotype to people exhibiting any antisocial personality disorder they might have in common?
If they have your DNA on record they can do anything they want with it. Sure to the press and the public its just a "fingerprint database" but for all you know they could be building a replacement clone for you that has undying loyalty to the government.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
I mean, they do have your fingers, in a labeled test tube in a lab. But not on their computer.
I was being mildly alarmist but this is genius. Some government entity comes during the night in a giant bus, stopping from house to house, swapping you with someone exactly the same but who thinks G.W. is doing a bang up job.
But if it's a fingerprint they won't have the DNA on record, just like having the md5 checksum "9e107d9d372bb6826bd81d3542a419d6" doesn't mean you have the 2-gig file that it's a fingerprint of.
Seriously. Next step: Minority Report
"This is where I say something profound and you bow, so lets just skip to your part."
You didn't say personality disorder--you said 'deviant opinions.' And yes, I doubt that there are meaningful DNA predictors of whether a person will be a political or social dissident.
The UK government apparently disagrees, given that's why they want the samples in the first place.
Perhaps one of the supporters of the proposition could expand upon that point?
They're trying to predict violent crime, not political dissent.
Exactly. Jesus people, it's not like they've got a testube with a little bit of you inside it somewhere. They take your DNA, and read bits of it off in some way. They then encode that information into a number. That number is then stored next to your Name/Social Insurance Number/Birth Certificate ID/whatever in a database. When they test DNA, they check those same bits, encode it into a number and see if it matches anyone in the databases number.
That's it. That's how the whole system works. You people are getting freaked out about shit a DNA database CAN'T DO. It's just gonna be another number attached to the numbers the government already has for you.
No we're not. I explicitly said on the previous page that to my knowledge there is NOTHING except identification that could be done with the DNA samples collected. Neither of the points raised in the first 35 posts is invalid because of your statement. Try reading the whole thread next time.
I found 2 within the last page. Maybe you should read more closely, you putz.
I covered it in a different way. Now, unless your a mod or the thread police, kindly STFU.
This is exactly the problem. Would you trust a jury of your peers to understand that? I sure as fuck wouldn't!
Furthermore, I'm not just worried about the odds of me being wrongly convicted. I'm worried about the odds of someone being wrongly convicted by such a system, which are significantly higher.
You still make the assumption that simply having your DNA at the scene is enough to convict you.
Bingo.
It isn't.