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Shit's going down in Tibet
flamebroiledchicken
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Registered User regular
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Tibet
Also, apparently the Chinese government has blocked Youtube because of riot-related videos and of course, other Western news sources as well.
This is some pretty intense shit. Does anyone think anything will come of this?
The 2008 unrest in Tibet began with demonstrations on March 10, 2008 (Tibetan Uprising Day), the 49th anniversary of the failed 1959 Tibetan uprising against Beijing's Communist party rule. The protests were started by Buddhist monks calling for the release of fellow monks detained in October 2007 as they celebrated the Dalai Lama receiving the United States Congressional Gold Medal on September 27, 2007. The protests soon shifted to calls for independence and descended into violence, rioting, burning and plunder on March 14, combined with attacks on non-Tibetan ethnic groups. The protests are said to be the largest protests against the Communist Party's rule in 20 years.
Also, apparently the Chinese government has blocked Youtube because of riot-related videos and of course, other Western news sources as well.
Some accounts place the death toll at 30, some at 100, some at 300. It's hard to separate rumor from truthful first-hand account, and hard to know exactly how many have been killed or injured, because communication in the region is so difficult. Foreign journalists are not allowed in, unaccompanied by official escorts. Internet and phone communications are routinely blocked by Chinese authorities when unrest occurs
This is some pretty intense shit. Does anyone think anything will come of this?
flamebroiledchicken on
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Realistically, I'm not sure anything can be done.
I hope this recent uprising at least raises awareness about Tibet. Thanks to the blocking of media, it's hard to get information out. I work as the World News Editor for a paper, and the best information I can find usually comes from 'outlawed' Tibet bloggers.
Although if you think about it they aren't mutually exclusive, as people often do something in someone's name that's actually against that someone's stated purpose. Ok, that sounds really garbled, but I think the message is clear enough.
I think the worst part about what's happening in China is how they're being enabled by other nations. For a rising economy, especially such a major exporter, like China I imagine international pressure could make a difference, but instead nations (and corporations, etc.) are saying "China is wrong but here we'll make some exceptions for them."
I read somewhere that Tibet is trying to set up a theocracy. Is the any veracity to this?
Why can't we? We did it when it was in Moscow.
Yeah but the Russians were filthy commu-....oh my.
I believe that clause in the British Olympic Committee's contracts has now been removed.
It's a nice idea but would it actually change anything? Western nations would be better off trying to act as intermediaries.
EDIT: I don't think the Chinese would take too many punitive measures if the US boycotted them. They'd be pissed the popular dude didn't turn up to their big party but they'll be far more mindful of long-term consequences.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
They don't need to be mindful of shit as long as they've got the US by the economic balls. I wonder why we don't hear conservatives flipping the fuck out over all the money we owe to the communists.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
i mean, during the cold war even people who didn't like us thought of us as the lesser of two evils. now there's no "greater" to really be compared against, even if china has a much worse human rights record than we do.
china should've never gotten the olympic bid, and violence and death aside, i wish that this uprising would've been held back about four or five months.
Not quite as dependent, as they could still sell stuff to the smoking remains, maybe even doing better if it can get itself a colonialism-style monopoly.
At the same time, I'm conflicted. China's government is as shitty as you can possibly get but at the same time, it's an emerging world power and an amazing culture that has never had the opportunity to host the Olympics before now (Seoul, Tokyo and Nagano are the only "Eastern" Olympics I can think of). I don't like it, and I certainly shouldn't, but for some reason I feel obliged to give them a little more leeway . . . even as they horribly repress their own citizens, kill dozens of people in Tibet and contribute to the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Darfur
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
I think you've hosted a number of Olympics since then . . . and pulled off a number of unseemly stuff too in the interim :P
But yes, I do fully understand your point (just joshing you for your old and obscure reference), but for the most part an Olympic boycott really requires some concurrent, egregious, wrong. The Moscow Olympics at the same time the USSR was invading Afghanistan, for example. The history of Olympic boycotts are interesting though, the Montreal games saw most of Africa boycott simply because New Zealand was allowed to participate (their rugby team had continued to play in apartheid South Africa).
That's considered ill form and I believe I've read of the U.S. complaining about that kind of stuff.
Vajrayana Buddhism has nothing to do with theocracy.
I have no doubt that a lot of that line of thinking is the work of communist apologists.
None whatsoever. That sounds like some excellent Chinese government propaganda. The Tibetan Government-in-Exile is committed to re-establishing a sovereign Tibetan nation with full multi-party democracy, with modern institutions. If the Dalai Lama were to have a political role (which is unlikely, given the statements from the current incumbent), it would be something on the order of a constitutional monarchy, like Canada.
Sorry the president should boycott this thing. Sorry I know you think it's unrelated but there is the principal of the matter.
So this video's been making the rounds around the super "rah rah CCP is awesome you guys are mindless fucks brainwashed by Western media bias (lol irony) kill the Tibetan protesters" Chinese people.
Aside from the obvious mistake on "fact" 2 where they claim Tibet's been part of China for thousands of years and then show it hasn't even been part of it for 800 years, anyone else have evidence either for/against their other "facts" in the videos? I'm rather skeptical of their claims but don't really have the sources to prove them wrong.
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I'm going to have to disagree with the part I bolded. China's government certainly isn't as shitty as you can possibly get. Have we forgotten about North Korea? Or any number of other dictators. At least the leaders change in China. I have a decent amount of respect for the current government. Though I disagree with blocking out the media and their human rights message, I still respect the progress they've made.
Just think back to 1990s China, or even earlier, when the hardliners were still in power. The more recent governments have installed a huge amount of reforms in an extremely short time. They now have a largely market economy, international relations (they even have peacekeeping troops abroad now, I believe). Their infrastructure is being developing at an extremely rapid pace. They have the political will/power to tackle so many problems a democratic nation like the US couldn't hope to handle. After all they started the One-Child policy over 25 years ago and have stuck to it, because it was their only hope.
I'll admit that there's plenty of things they do wrong, but if you look at their economic rise over the past 20 years its hard not to be impressed. Also for all the complaining and lobbying western countries do, China still manages to progess beyond just the economic arena. They helped during the 5-party talks with North Korea. Their human rights record is improving. The western areas of China serve as a stabilizing force for many of the former Russian Islamic states. But I think most importantly they're giving their citizens better lives. Of course it's not ideal yet, but I really think they're doing quite well.
As for boycotting the Olympics being a good idea. This is probably not going to happen. The Chinese governemnt sees the Olympics as way to finally show the world all the progress China has made in the last 20-30 years. Progress made almost entirely by the 'Reform' segment of their party. Embarassing China, and the more friendly faction of their government would only support the hardliners. The same hardliners who wouldn't mind dumping the trillions of dollars in US Debt and go back to the 'good old days' before all the recent reforms started.
As for the person who said they'd been to Tibet and felt bad about the systematic destruction of the Tibetan culture. That I agree with. I haven't had a chance to go to Tibet yet, but I understand this is exactly what's going on. From my understanding, the Chinese feeling is that they're bringing modernization and an improved economy to Tibet, and they don't understand what the problem is with that. It sounds a lot like how the US used to treat Native Americans.
I had a lot of misconceptions about China, even after having travelled their once about 10 years ago. But having gone twice more (each time for month) in the past year, I think my opinions have changed. There is some truth to the matter that its just 'better news' if the Chinese government is full of corrupt murderers than it is if they're simply doing their best with a difficult situation.
I find it particularly difficult to not respect the Chinese Government. All governments do things we wish they didn't, but at least Chinas produces noticable improvements to the lives of the vast majority of its citizens, and their futures.
In fairness to China, Cauld is right that they have come a long way, but not nearly far enough for a remotely first world country.
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There's a few specific policies that the Chinese government imposes on Tibet that are causing the Tibetan culture to be wiped out (my source for these is the Tibetan guide I had, and seeing some of it firsthand):
1. Removing holy articles from temples to put in Mainland China's museums.
2. Strict limits on how many men may become Buddhist monks (temples that used to have 1000's of monks living there now typically have "official" enrollment of around 300-500).
3. Temples are regularly patrolled for any foribbiden items (mostly the Dalai Lama photos).
4. The "disappearance" of the Panchen Lama and the government's insistence on naming the reincarnation of all Dalai Lamas.
5. Tibetans are charged to go to state-sponsored schools (most of them can't afford them).
6. The Tibetan native language is not allowed to be taught in schools, only Mandarin.
7. Han Chinese are given preferential job placement, partly through the inability of Tibetans to get accepted into Chinese schools.
8. Government programs to actively try and get specifically Han Chinese to move to Tibet.
It all adds up to a systematic effort to marginalize the religion and native people of Tibet. When visiting Lhasa, it's very obvious that there is a Chinese half of town and a Tibetan half of town. The Tibetan side is poor, the Chinese side has all of the vaunted modernization.
One of the most telling stories was when our guide brought us to a Tibetan woman's cave to show us how they lived when going through a spiritual cleansing ritual. At first, she wouldn't allow us to come near until he brought her out to see that we were not Chinese.
On the one hand, I get why the Chinese government does what they do. They're concerned that Tibet could flare up into a bloody uprising (all like, 10 people that live there). They want a unified China. However, they implement terrible policies that punish Tibetans for being Tibetan, which just makes the Tibetans even angrier as they get poorer and more marginalized. I don't think they're "doing the best they can," I think they have an agenda, and that agenda is to make Tibet (Han) Chinese at any cost.
The "Free Tibet" movement wouldn't have any real legs if Tibetans were treated fairly. They're not, they hate it, and they hate the Chinese as a direct result.