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Demanding a raise
tuscloud311
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
so ive been working at this job for 5 years now. I started when i was 17, and still in high school. We are a very professional, white collar environment business. I work at a desk, using a computer, testing software and writing test protocols using FDA regulated formats.
In other words....this job can give me MAD cash. But uhhh, see....i have a problem. If you remember my old old GF, i dropped out of college so i could work enough hours to support her until she got a job. Well, since that is all said and done, i have yet to go back to college (due to debts and other various "now is not the time to go back to school" situations).
But i am considered very good at what i do here (in fact, ive been here the longest out of my entire team, so im considered the "elder" or "domain expertise" guy). All of my co-workers are in their 35+, so it is pretty intimidating for them to not know as much as a 21 year old.
ANYWAY, so i got a 75% pay increase last year, which brought me up to 10 dollars an hour. Now it may SOUND great, like "woa, 75% increase!" but that was only 3 dollars an hour more, and the only reason they did that was because of the minimum wage law being increased.
So now im sitting at 10 bucks an hour, after been working here for 5 years.....ive got all of my co-workers, and (now) immediate supervisor telling my boss to give me a raise to salary.
Ive had a few 1:1 with my boss and his major concern is me going back to school. But its a catch-22 because i need money to go to school, and i need money to pay off debts so i can focus on school, etc. Esentially: give me more money, and ill get my degree. Get my degree, and i get more money
We have our performance reviews this week, and i will know whether i get a raise then. But if i do not, how do i go about...demanding one? I refuse to work less than 15 dollars an hour now, because that is the LOWEST anyone gets paid around here (re: intern part time). I am severely underpaid and my peers notice that and feel bad for me.
Note: i know i do a kick ass job at work, so it is not "youre not doing good, so you dont get a raise"
I feel intimidated just simply asking for a raise, when i do not have a college degree. My old boss is helping me through this, and he says if i dont get a raise, to threaten my boss with another job offering.
Is this wise? or bad morale?
TL;DR: i am severely underpaid and need a raise to live in acceptable living conditions. How do i get a raise?!
In other words....this job can give me MAD cash. But uhhh, see....i have a problem. If you remember my old old GF, i dropped out of college so i could work enough hours to support her until she got a job. Well, since that is all said and done, i have yet to go back to college (due to debts and other various "now is not the time to go back to school" situations).
But i am considered very good at what i do here (in fact, ive been here the longest out of my entire team, so im considered the "elder" or "domain expertise" guy). All of my co-workers are in their 35+, so it is pretty intimidating for them to not know as much as a 21 year old.
ANYWAY, so i got a 75% pay increase last year, which brought me up to 10 dollars an hour. Now it may SOUND great, like "woa, 75% increase!" but that was only 3 dollars an hour more, and the only reason they did that was because of the minimum wage law being increased.
So now im sitting at 10 bucks an hour, after been working here for 5 years.....ive got all of my co-workers, and (now) immediate supervisor telling my boss to give me a raise to salary.
Ive had a few 1:1 with my boss and his major concern is me going back to school. But its a catch-22 because i need money to go to school, and i need money to pay off debts so i can focus on school, etc. Esentially: give me more money, and ill get my degree. Get my degree, and i get more money
We have our performance reviews this week, and i will know whether i get a raise then. But if i do not, how do i go about...demanding one? I refuse to work less than 15 dollars an hour now, because that is the LOWEST anyone gets paid around here (re: intern part time). I am severely underpaid and my peers notice that and feel bad for me.
Note: i know i do a kick ass job at work, so it is not "youre not doing good, so you dont get a raise"
I feel intimidated just simply asking for a raise, when i do not have a college degree. My old boss is helping me through this, and he says if i dont get a raise, to threaten my boss with another job offering.
Is this wise? or bad morale?
TL;DR: i am severely underpaid and need a raise to live in acceptable living conditions. How do i get a raise?!
tuscloud311 on
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Don't mention that you know what other people make, even if it's NOT the crux of your argument, the instant you mention another person's pay you sound like you're whining, and really it's bad business to discuss pay with coworkers
The reason people stay at jobs(well besides the obvious job security)is that with experience comes money, and if your experience isn't netting you money, well wtf? Hell man I was a shift manager at Arby's making 10 dollars an hour when I was 17 after working there like a year and a half(in Texas though, it's hard to compare pay if we're not in the same place, but still)
Assuming you're as valuable an employee as you say you are, THEY will want YOU to stay
What you should do it outline the value that you give to the company in comparison to your peers at your company and others similar to it. In other words, why a raise is fair and appropriate. Not that you demand it. They should be paying you the market rate. If they aren't, start looking for another job in the market.
My new boss is one of those "lol school, go back to it kthnx bai" and the job descriptions require EITHER a bachelor degree in engineering OR 3 years equivilent experience in order to be an associate. Im fine being an associate, as it would double my pay....im not asking to be on the same level as my co-workers....but i do deserve to be at a higher pay level.
We have been beating around the bush about me getting a higher pay, but it seems less and less like it is going to happen. Hence me making this thread.
Good luck.
Read this ^ and heed, because it is one of the best pieces of advice in here so far.
The best way to get a raise?
First up is just being confident. I dont mean just being egotistical (you dont seem like the type anyway), just be confident. Since you know you've done well at your job, you'll likely have no problem acting as such. Next, sit down and physically write down your accomplishments so far. In the five years you've been there, you've accomplished A, B, C, and so on. What have you done for the company? How many days have you missed, if any? How many people count on you? Things like that. ALSO: Since you sound like you're going to stay full time/longer term, you need to emphasize that.
Memorize that list (dont bring it in with you, obviously), this way you have some ammunition to lean against once you bring the topic to light. Be brief as well, it doesnt need to be a mile long. Just list the most significant things you can think of and you'll be in good shape.
The best way to bring it up is at the end of your review. If you get high marks and he gives you a raise but it's not adequate, or if he doesnt offer one at all, then that's when you should strike.
I'm actually kind of surprised that you've gone 5 years without any kind of significant compensation... that seems pretty ridiculous... almost ludicrous, if not outrageously unfair.
EDIT: If the douche refuses to give you a raise after all that, then I would definitely follow AtomBomb's advice and start looking!
Oh... as a side note- being a supervisor myself, it would be pretty unnerving if employees came to me complaining about someone else's salary. It's generally a bad idea when you talk about your wage with other people you work with (although this is mainly because some make more than others, as you could guess, so it's not as big a deal, but it's a deal all the same). Where I work it's grounds for termination, as there's pretty much a zero tolerance policy about it. This isnt to say that people dont, but when they do they generally keep it between them. I'm not saying that your workplace is the same, but it's probably something you want to keep to yourself in the future.
Also, nitpicking: $7 to $10 is a 43% raise (approx.), not 75%.
I too, think that after 5 years of working for this company, my educational background should be overlooked in the short-term, and my skills and performance should be weighed more heavily. I wouldnt blame them if they didnt promote me to a software engineer principle (highest in the engineer tree) due to no degree, but to the lowest level engineer (associate) is not asking for too much.
In regards to listing accomplishments: I have done that. In fact, i did that for my old boss 4 days before he left (which is the basis for his recommendation to promote me), AND for my new boss (which actually, i just did yesterday).
Despite my accomplishments, and how my co-workers view and rely on me, he still stressed the issue about getting a degree. Its simply not fair in my opinion. As i mentioned earlier, i spoke to the manager of the Help Desk (IT) department, who is good friends with my family, and said i was interested in a position if he had any available. Unfortunately, he didnt but i inquired on his hiring qualifications. He said all they need is a high school diploma, and 3 years of related support experience. Well, i have 3 years of support experience (because, surprise surprise, i also do all of the internal support for the software that i test...for the ENTIRE company, which no one seems to look at). I asked what the starting pay was...he said roughly 16 dollars an hour...and no one has ever made that little in his department.
In other words....the lowest paying department (Help Desk) makes almost double than i do, at the lowest salary possible.
So, since this is beating a dead horse...my next question:would it be hard to find another white-collar job, working at a support/software business at my age and education? I have 5 years experience here, so would that outweight during an interview? or am i fucked?
Also, i realize the 75% was off. in fact, i wasnt even making 7 dollars an hour, i was at $6.45, i just rounded. For 4 years (up until the 10 dollar an hour raise), i was getting 4% merit based on performance, which is ..like what? 10 cents an hour more? It was a joke...
Start looking now. You may find a job that you'd much rather do anyway, even if they offer you a more competitive wage at the place you're at now. It really can't hurt. And if you find an equivilant position that gives you quite a bit more leverage to negotiate (since you have a place to leave to if they don't do X).
tuscloud, like others are saying dont be afraid to apply to jobs because you dont have a degree, even if it lists that as a requirement on the job ad. Send in your application anyway and make sure your experience is clearly shown in a prominent place on your resume. A lot of places will overlook the lack of a degree in light of relevent experience, listing a degree as a requirement is often just a way to filter out the timewasters with no qualifications OR experience. Which you see a fair bit of in IT support positions, unfortunately, in my experience.
Either way, check out the job market, not just so you can potentially find a better job that will reward you appropriately, but also so you can get a feel for what you are worth when you go to the negotiating table with your boss. Like AtomBomb said, dont threaten to leave as a bluff, but by all means attend some interviews. Who knows, you might just stumble across a great opportunity. It doesnt sound promising that you're going to get that where you are.
There are other ways to show you have these qualities in your resume, and working for the same company for 5 years shows you are a loyal and responsible employee. You should emphasize this fact when you go looking for a new job, because this along with your experience level should at least put you on par with an inexperienced college graduate trying to get the same job.
From what I have read it sounds like your boss is looking for excuses to keep you at a low salary (probably so his budget looks nice and lean). I get the feeling that even if you were to get the "required education" there would be another excuse to keep your pay low.
Everyone here is has given stellar advice so far and if you follow it hopefully there will be change in your financial status in the not too distant future.
This only works if you are indispensable. If you are replaceable, and for cheaper, you've just eff'd yourself.
You'd go in to this situation knowing full well you may be submitting your resignation from the job the next day and accepting the job proposal.
Whenever you plan on demanding a raise or sometimes even asking for one, you should understand that your actions may harm your future with the company and that your employment may be at risk.
If they have requirements for your position that you do not fit currently, they have zero reason to give you anything beyond minimum wage. To them, you are a good, cheap resource that doesn't have the requirements to go anywhere in the company at this time. Hence, until you leave the company, they will continue to treat you as such. I see it all the time.
The advice above is good, just remember that you should be prepared to leave the job if you attempt that pending the results.
Also, I might suggest you try looking for contract employment. I have a few friends who do not have undergraduate degrees, but their skills are great. They might work for a contract agency that sells your skills to another business. They can usually find you decent paying jobs that fit your skills with employers that just want a job done instead of someone who needs you to fit the company environment.
Plus, from a company standpoint, contractors are usually easier to obtain than headcount (employees on payroll) and would be much more lenient on requirements.
See if you can find some contract to hire positions as they may lead to being hired at a higher salary to a better employer. Do not forget though that the new emlpoyer may treat you the exact same as the old, but your pay may very well be higher. You might also find you enjoy the variability in being a contractor as well as since you are an employee of the contract service, the companies you work for have already bought your skills.
It's cool though. It gives me more time to tab out Ted Leo songs.
It's kind of a mixed blessing cash-wise, being "per-hour" vs. "saleried," but long term it's always the way to go, for office-type work anyway.
Unless a job is especially mindless, an employee who’s been around for five years is pretty valuable to most businesses.
That only depends on how much they are willing to spend to keep that employee. Training is always a cnocern, but for most, the budget is more important as a bottom line item. If they realize that by losnig him, they will have to pay someone $15 an hour as a new hire, they may give him a little more money, but in the end, only as long as it isn't more that what they'd have to pay to get someone to apply for the job.
To the company, an employee being underpaid for a job and having that much experience is a valuable asset. From the politcal side of things though, that employee, if not able to meet minimum requirements to get an equivalent job in the same group, may not have any potential in the company to move up. This depends on the company though. If they can find someone with the degree or qualifications they want at the pay they are willing to pay out, they'd rather have that person because the person can move up in the cmopany or at least has the option of doing so.
So just be careful. Cynical perhaps, but it's what I've seen in the several companies I've been with or the many others I know people worked for.
EDIT: I should probably add, I would suggest looking for a new job, potentially as a contractor because requirements are typically less and it's easier for companies to budget for a contractor than an employee. As far as raises go, many companies give you a % raise based upon your salary. This means that the company feels your net worth to them is based upon your starting pay when you got hired to the company, hence why you see people who change companies. If I could find a company that paid me 5 grand more a year to do the same thing I do now, that 4% raise I get annually means I'm getting more every raise to begin with and it increases as time goes on. Alternatively, I might find a job paying the same I'm getting now, but with less responsibilities, making the job more enjoyable and less stressful.
When you start with a company, aim as high as possible for a starting pay/salary without being too pushy on the subject. If you need the experience, accept whatever they give you. If you are worth more than what they offer due to other job offerings or some indication, then see if you can get a higher starting pay.
This varies depending on your part in the company though too. If I moved departments within the same company, I can achieve a different starting pay as well.
well if you're valuable, you're not replaceable, are you?
When i answer no, they say "me neither"....we have noticed that the entire development crew has their reviews done, and no one from the test team has theirs given yet. Our old manager completed the paperwork and writing up recommendations and reviews for us before he left, and gave them to our new manager to give out....
Like i said in an earlier post, he would do them this week....except he didnt. And we are beginning to see a correlation that the developers > test team in his eyes. In fact, all of the developers recently bought parts from newegg to build a whole new PC (estimated cost of 1100 dollars per PC, at 250 per monitor, 130 for keyboard/mouse combo...for a total of $1730 per person at 10 people...for $17,300 total.
And the test team cannot order new monitors....
Anyway, rant aside...i have yet to get my review and i appreciate the support and advice thus far.
This tells me that it is in your best interest to start finding a new job.
You can request a raise without giving an ultimatum. End the conversation saying you completely understand where the manager is coming from, even if he is a dick about it. Then while you are still employed find something better.
Do you want to have to agonize every few years because your salary hasn't even increased with the cost of living? Do you want to have to find a new job to use to threaten a new salary? Find a better company to work for. Sticking around only helps reinforce the way they are treating you. When they start hemorrhaging experienced employees things may change, but who cares, you'll have a better job.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to continue to dick you around. $10 an hour after 5 years is chump change. People bagging groceries are making more than that after 5 years, or at least have moved up to a higher paying position. I'd suggest going to college. If you can't pay for college outright (wouldn't be surprising), Student Loans are available. Some people are averse to taking on ANY kind of debt, but when you realize that you'll probably command 2.5x what you're bringing in now, it's a wise investment.