Does anyone know of any java or web-based Roguelikes? I'm at work and I get bored between calls. I'm kinda adverse to downloading anything (especially a game) onto a work computer.
So I found a Zombie survival mod that I think I can steal a lot of useful stuff. I probably wont get around to really starting this until I can download a good Linux distro so I can put together a workable coding environment and that will probably happen Thursday at my brothers so I don't have to do it over satallite.
In the meantime I've put together a list of objectives for 3 iterations of this idea, well for the first 2 really. Note: I'm leaning towards going with classes just for easier balancing and replay value, they should be soft classes in that most (i.e. non-magic) skills will be available to all characters but a various prices in skill points.
Anyway I've spoilered the lists here:
Three levels of SRBAND
First: simple test game set in an arcologie's zoo.
Second: single arcology game.
Third: general game with various arcologies, city map, quests, etc.
First game description: You, a faithful corp wageslave, were enjoying your lunch break in the zoo your corp thoughtfully provided. A band of hulligans shut down the power as part of their plan to infiltrate into the HQ levels. The animals have escaped their cages, fleeing patrons and workers have dropped items everywhere and getting out of here will not be easy. Luckily you have found a pistol dropped by a guard as he was eaten by a Naga.
This is just to test my ability to understand TOME's module system.
First game feature list:
Guns which need reloaded and have 3 ammo types, flechette, normal and AP.
“Monster type†mobs and “Zookeeper type†mobs.
A few levels with the goal to escape.
3 combat systems with 3 skills HTH, Melee, and Firearms.
First game option feature list:
Mobs with special attacks.
Friendly and/or neutral mobs.
Second game description: The Renraku Arcology has shut down. Try to survive or even to escape this hellhole.
This will be a lot like vanilla ANGBAND. One big dungeon with lots of random levels. Maybe start at the bottom and work to the roof to get a chopper evac as the goal.
Second game feature list:
Classes: Street Sam, Combat Mage, Physical Adept
Races: Troll, Dwarf, Elf, Human
Skill system
Two handed fighting system w pistols or 1 rifle, etc.
Magic system
Cyberware system – installed only in black clinics slotted ala armor in angband.
Drugs, i.e., potions.
Dungeon Stores-- including black market cyberware shops, fences to sell stuff, etc.
Armor (impact,ballistic) - only one slot for this.
Shotguns, autofire weapons,etc.
Steath – works only in the dark.
Special levels
Second game optional feature list: ()= optional feature that class would use.
Classes: Street Shaman(Summoning), Former Company Man (Social Steath), Decker (Hacking System)
“Social†steath – works in the light while normal stealth works only in the dark or perhaps outside.
Fire mode switching single, burst, etc.
Drugs with side effects.
Stun/sleep Weapons
Explosives
Hacking System
Doc Wagon rescues
Skill list: *ed skills are for optional features. After the : comes the specializations.
Firearms: Pistol,Rifle,Submachine Gun, Shotgun.
Melee:
Unarmed:Martial Arts, Cyber Weapons
Stealth
Corp Etiquette*--social steath in corp levels
Streetsmarts*--social steath in non-corp levels
Security:Lockpick, Disarm security system
Combat Magic
Summoning Magic
Demolitions*
Decking*
Negotiation—get better prices
I've listed some things as optional because I don't know how easy it will be to add them or even if it is easy to add in principle, it's clear that it will take a lot of work to do so. The matrix is a good example of the latter case since it is really a whole extra game.
Let me know about any ideas I've missed, or why this approach is stupid or whatever. I've put off a lot of the cooler ideas to the 3rd iteration hopefully making these first two more or less straightforward.
lowlylowlycook on
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The Renraku Arcology Shutdown is my most favorite scenario ever. It'd be great for a roguelike, and you could survive more easily alone than in a group, I think.
The non-combat sorts in our troupes always lasted about a session and a half, even when we KNEW what to expect from a meta-game point of view.
So it turns out that this is $40 used from Amazon. From reading reviews, etc., online I've gleaned the following:
Rogue AI takes over the Arcology in particular the security system and a bunch of drones.
The arcology is sealed off by the military for a long time at least a couple years.
What I need to know is whether it would still make sense to have black market and fences operating in this scenario. I'm thinking it would since all kind of commodities would become rare pretty quickly. More problematic would be having black clinics where cyberware would be installed. Probably gameplay has to trump realism in any case.
What I'm thinking of is having some levels be safe where the residents have secured the area and these would operate as towns do in other roguelikes, i.e. safe areas with shops.
Other things that might be useful would be a list of likely enemies. Obviously there would be drones everywhere and I think I read something about some kind of Street Sams taken over by the AI through their cyberwear. It would be easy to imagine special levels like a Zoo floor that has run wild or whatever. Hmmmm, maybe the marketing dept. and finance have formed gangs that are constantly at war. What else am I missing?
lowlylowlycook on
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
The Renraku Arcology Shutdown is my most favorite scenario ever. It'd be great for a roguelike, and you could survive more easily alone than in a group, I think.
The non-combat sorts in our troupes always lasted about a session and a half, even when we KNEW what to expect from a meta-game point of view.
So it turns out that this is $40 used from Amazon. From reading reviews, etc., online I've gleaned the following:
Rogue AI takes over the Arcology in particular the security system and a bunch of drones.
The arcology is sealed off by the military for a long time at least a couple years.
What I need to know is whether it would still make sense to have black market and fences operating in this scenario. I'm thinking it would since all kind of commodities would become rare pretty quickly. More problematic would be having black clinics where cyberware would be installed. Probably gameplay has to trump realism in any case.
What I'm thinking of is having some levels be safe where the residents have secured the area and these would operate as towns do in other roguelikes, i.e. safe areas with shops.
Other things that might be useful would be a list of likely enemies. Obviously there would be drones everywhere and I think I read something about some kind of Street Sams taken over by the AI through their cyberwear. It would be easy to imagine special levels like a Zoo floor that has run wild or whatever. Hmmmm, maybe the marketing dept. and finance have formed gangs that are constantly at war. What else am I missing?
magical research / magical security departments, will give you areas to put the more dangerous magical beasties, and escaped spirits.
OK another brain dump. After messing around with TOME I decided that the combat system it uses by default has a lot of dumb features I don't really like. Hence, I've been thinking about just coding up something. Here is my current idea. If features a reliance on ratios vs differences for computation. I'm using the arctan function since it has a lot of nice features being bounded slope 1 at the origin, etc. This means that if the two variables being compared are equal you will have a 50% chance of success.
Details below:
General Skill System
x=(Skill+Stat+Bonuses+Penalties)/(O_Skill+O_Stat+O_Bonuses)
P=probability of success = (2/pi)*arctan(x)
O_=opposing
This function = zero with zero skill;slope of 1 near zero; .5 with equal skills/bonuses; 1 with a ratio of infinity. Near x = zero you could assume that P=x, with a big x you can assume P=1.
If we want to have a higher chance of success with low skill we could use 1-exp(-k*x) instead.
Example: Shooting a mob with a pistol
x=(Pistol Skill+Quickness+Smartweapon bonus+cyber eye bonus-range penalty)/(Mob_Dodge)
P=probability of a hit =k*arctan(x)
Note: monster dodge stat includes dodge+quickness
Example2: Disarming a trap:
x=(Disarm skill+Intelligence+tool bonus)/(trap difficulty)
P=probability of disarming the trap.
Combat system:
All attacks take 1 move as does moving 1 square, reloading a gun, etc.
Bursts are 3 shots taken as one. Each shot has a penalty.
If you have 2 weapons equipped you attack with
List of bonuses/penalties:
Blind fire (darkness or actual blindness from spells)
Range -(distance_to_target/weapon_range) rounding down.
Item bonuses, e.g. Smartweapons,laser sights.
Burst fire penalty
2 hand fighting penalty 2 pistols/two swords/etc.
Using ranged attack on adjacent mob penalty
Weapon stats:
Damage xdy+z
Range in spaces
Penetration
Fire mode (modes?)
Damage type?
Ammo stats:
Damage multiplier
Penetration multiplier
Damage type?
Mob stats
AI
HP
Armor Rating
Dodge
List of attacks
Damage for each attack
Damage type for each attack
Range for each attack
Resistances?
Damage System:
Deflection Chance:
P=probability of zero damage
x=(Armor Rating/Penetration Rating)
Absorption
P=percent of damage going through
x=(Armor Rating/Penetration Rating)
As always any comments/additions are welcome.
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Sir CarcassI have been shown the end of my worldRound Rock, TXRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
About the wireless: I was thinking maybe have wireless, but the target has to be on screen. Would make hacking drones doable while keeping it within the realm of coding.
Pjstelford: I'd love to hear any ideas you have but the best ones for now would be those easiest to implement in a roguelike. Also I'd love any feedback on what I've been posting. Once we get this going there will be a lot non-coding stuff such as adding mobs and their stats, adding stats for all the weapons, cyberware, etc., etc. Also we will need playtesters so don't feel like you can't contribute. That goes for everyone. Well assuming I can get this going at all that is.
Sir Carcass: That sounds like the kind of thing that would be neat to add once we have more basic things working. Sort of make wireless hackers, or maybe just otaku, a mezzing/mind control class. I know TOME has crazy classes like possessors that get different stats including different numbers of arms depending on what they possess so I think a lot of things are possible given time.
More stuff I'm trying to flesh out this time cyberware, weapons. I'd like to hear any ideas about useful non-weapon gear and how many such slots we'd need. I don't want too many since we have cyber-gear to keep track of as well.
Cyberware System:
We need some kind of limit to the amount that can be installed. We could use the essence system from SR 2ed. Which gives 6pts of essence to spend and that is tied to the magic system via a lowered magic attribute.
I suggest an ego-item system for the actual item but this needs further thought.
Some possible egos:
Refurbished
Obsolete
Experimental
Cutting Edge
Bio-Engineered
Military Grade
So you could find/buy either Obsolete Skill-Wires or Military Grade Wired Reflexes.
The easiest thing we could have these modify would be the essence cost but it would be nice if they could effect the stats as well. Or even add the possibility of malfunction.
Slots where cyberware is equipped but they can only be installed in Black Clinics.
Slots:What can be installed there.
Head1:Eyes, Low Light, IR, etc.
Head2:Skill wires,Cyberjack,Ear mods
Body1:Wired Reflexes
Body2:Dermal Plating,Muscle Replacement,Air Filter
Body3:See Body 2.
L arm:Razors, Spurs, Smartlink,Cyber Limb
R arm:See Larm
Legs:Cyber Limbs
Inventory/Equip System
Slots:
Armor:Armor comes in complete suits.
Right Hand:Weapon Slot
Left Hand:Weapon Slot
Head: Aux Slot for IR goggles or head mounted flashlight, etc.
Weapon System:
Each weapon has the following stats
Range:Damage:To hit bonus:Penetration:Fire Modes:Damage Type
Base weapons with mods as “egos”, think of things like “holy avenger” or “of fire” from most roguelikes.
Ares predator with laser sight is a base ares predator with whatever bonuses the “laser sight” ego gives. Special shops should be able to upgrade weapons with new egos. Each weapon would have a flag for each ego to see if it can be applied so no silenced shotguns or revolvers, etc. Maybe limit these to two per weapon.
List of ranged egos:
laser sight: increases to hit chance
silencer: lower steath penalty
shock pads: lower burst penalty
gas vent:lower burst penalty
scope: raises range
smart weapon: raises to hit chance and range buy only with smartlink
custom: only from stores. increases to hit chance
List of melee egos:
Monofilament, diamond edge?
Materials
Dunno.
Ammo:
Three classes of ammo: Pistol, Shotgun and Rifle.
Weapons can be loaded with 3 types of ammo that modify the stats of the weapon.
Standard: Standard, duh.
Flechettes: Raise damage but lowers penetration.
AP:Lower damage but raise penetration
Anyone have an awesome idea for a magic system for this? I haven't come up with anything yet.
lowlylowlycook on
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The essence system could work, but you should allow them to upgrade things (ie, wired reflexes 1 to wired reflexes 2). In the pnp system I don't think you could do that, or there was an essence penalty for removing cyberware.
For magic, I think just a straightforward MP system would work. The one thing with cool potential is astral projection, dunno you would code it (I know fuck all about coding) but it feels doable.
The magic system could have a ton of variety too, what with all the different totem options. With a bunch of guys providing content you could have a great magic system.
As for roguelike: my ideal version of this game would be more forgiving than a classic roguelike.
I don't know if this would actually be Shadowrun at all, but it might be interesting to have a roguelike where you need to simultaneously move and wirelessly hack through a building at the same time, alone. You would have to face defenses on both levels, and you could aid your progress in one level by doing things in the other, like tampering with terminals or shutting off security cameras or robots.
The essence system could work, but you should allow them to upgrade things (ie, wired reflexes 1 to wired reflexes 2). In the pnp system I don't think you could do that, or there was an essence penalty for removing cyberware.
Yep I had this in mind. When I made PnP chars they rarely had essence left if they were supposed to be cybered up, whereas I'm seeing these chars as starting with little or none and building up from there so a lot of things will have to be different.
For magic, I think just a straightforward MP system would work. The one thing with cool potential is astral projection, dunno you would code it (I know fuck all about coding) but it feels doable.
Hmmm, I know TOME has astral characters but I don't think I've ever messed with it. You have to somehow add the body left behind for the SR version, right? So maybe it would only work within levels? Besides coding the biggest problem here will be balancing it. Something to add to the, it would be cool list, though.
The magic system could have a ton of variety too, what with all the different totem options. With a bunch of guys providing content you could have a great magic system.
As for roguelike: my ideal version of this game would be more forgiving than a classic roguelike.
We are far from having to worry about balance yet but I'm not opposed necessarily to having non-permadeath as an option or even as the default. We also talked about having doc wagon contracts which might ease the pain a bit.
[edit]
So more about the magic system:
Mages and Shaman in Shadowrun are very flexible. They can summon; they can cast various spells; they can project astrally; and more that I'm probably forgetting. Do you guys think I should keep them in or should I have classes that correspond to different kinds of adepts instead? If I keep them, any ideas on making them balanced? Of course they could just be the munchkin class. This is a roguelike after all.
lowlylowlycook on
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I don't know if this would actually be Shadowrun at all, but it might be interesting to have a roguelike where you need to simultaneously move and wirelessly hack through a building at the same time, alone. You would have to face defenses on both levels, and you could aid your progress in one level by doing things in the other, like tampering with terminals or shutting off security cameras or robots.
I'm not sure if I really understand this. My idea was to have terminals where you could jack in then be in essence teleported to the matrix where if you obtained certain objectives then you could open all the doors, disable all the traps or download a map depending.
If you mean having both going at the same time then I'm afraid that is beyond any hope of my coding it or frankly playing it.
Sir Carcass's idea has the advantage of being easier to implement than a separate matrix so we might go wireless after all.
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Sir CarcassI have been shown the end of my worldRound Rock, TXRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
And on wireless, if you want to get a little deeper, you can have comlinks with signal ratings that still affects the distance, except a Signal of 6 would let you affect anything you can see on the screen, instead of several kilometers like in PnP. A signal of 1 would require you to be standing next to the object.
I think the best to make it feel like Shadowrun is let you hire fellow runners. I see it where they have basic follow and survival behavior, but you can also command them from a menu like Hack->Select Terminal or Attack->Ranged->Select Target. Otherwise your character will pretty much have to be all things, and then it kind of loses something.
For magic, if I were coding it, I would leave that out entirely until the game is "released". Get the basics and cyberware working first, then add magic.
Also, I would second the idea of making it as close to Shadowrun as possible without it being "Shadowrun". Not only can you tailor the world to the game, but you don't have to worry about a C&D.
Anyway the main thing I'm looking for from the moniker "roguelike" is an emphesis on gameplay over graphics. So basic text graphics or simple sprites instead of a 3d effects fest it takes 5 years to make. I also want complex and frankly complicated game mechanics that give you a lot of options and force you to think about what action you're going to take next. When I think of a roguelike I think of a massively complex rpg that has just the essential core game and not any frills.
Edit: magic wouldn't be that hard to do. It just does things that would be already present in the game without having to use technology item and then applying stun damage. You can wait on summoning spirits and adept powers though.
And on wireless, if you want to get a little deeper, you can have comlinks with signal ratings that still affects the distance, except a Signal of 6 would let you affect anything you can see on the screen, instead of several kilometers like in PnP. A signal of 1 would require you to be standing next to the object.
I think the best to make it feel like Shadowrun is let you hire fellow runners. I see it where they have basic follow and survival behavior, but you can also command them from a menu like Hack->Select Terminal or Attack->Ranged->Select Target. Otherwise your character will pretty much have to be all things, and then it kind of loses something.
For magic, if I were coding it, I would leave that out entirely until the game is "released". Get the basics and cyberware working first, then add magic.
Also, I would second the idea of making it as close to Shadowrun as possible without it being "Shadowrun". Not only can you tailor the world to the game, but you don't have to worry about a C&D.
The way I'm doing this is by making a mod for the TOME engine. This means a magic system might be easier to code (read copy&paste) than the cyberware system. But this TOME engine is very flexible and at least one mod had a party system instead of the classic 1 player character roguelike play.
If this goes far enough that we get a C&D letter for a mod to a Angand variant then I guess we will just have to live with that. I guess if things are really coming together at some point then we could think about changing a few names or whatever.
Oh, and I only have the 2nd ed. rules so I know jack about wireless hacking.
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So I'm working on an outline of a magic system. Hopefully I can steal most of the code for the spells themselves from other sources.
Magic system:
Spells cost mp to cast. If no mp are left spells cost hp to cast.
Spells split into groups corresponding to the skill they use.
Spells have minimum skill level to cast for each.
Spell damage depends on the skill, that is, it scales with skill, as does the success rate.
Spell skill is skill+(2*int+will)/3 for mages and skill +(int+2*will)/3 for shaman.
How do magic users get spells? Do we have spellbooks that are carried or
do we have some way to learn them and they become innate?
Set up like this we don't have to have mana points rising too rapidly as the mage levels since each spell cast should become more effective. Maybe have a skill that adds mp.
Also, I'll bring up this edit that came near the bottom of last page.
So more about the magic system:
Mages and Shaman in Shadowrun are very flexible. They can summon; they can cast various spells; they can project astrally; and more that I'm probably forgetting. Do you guys think I should keep them in or should I have classes that correspond to different kinds of adepts instead? If I keep them, any ideas on making them balanced? Of course they could just be the munchkin class. This is a roguelike after all.
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Sir CarcassI have been shown the end of my worldRound Rock, TXRegistered Userregular
Oh, and I only have the 2nd ed. rules so I know jack about wireless hacking.
The actual rules are a little different, but as a concept it's pretty simple. Basically, the Matrix as we knew it crashed and was rebuilt with various wireless nodes, similar to a wireless internet. Now almost everyone carries a comlink. It works as a PDA, but also does a lot more. You can have cyberware hooked up to your comlink, so a smartgun for instance could have it's firing mode changed to auto just by thinking about it. Most normal people have a MySpace like page on their comlink that is transmitted, so if you see someone you can pull up their profile, if it's public, to see more about them. Even clothes can be hooked up to a comlink so you can, for instance, change the color of your jacket on the fly. And like if you walk in a record store, it will scan your comlink to see what kind of music you have, then present you similar selections, which you can then purchase and download right to your comlink. Most people interact with their comlink through AR, or Altered Reality. It's kind of like the computer from Minority Report, except only they can see it.
As far as hackers go, there are really no more cyberdecks or datajacks. Most computer networks are wireless (though some high security systems are still line based). A hacker can access any network that his comlink can reach, which is based on its signal rating. I know my comlink on my hacker has a rating of 5, which gives it a range of about 4km. So I can hack anything I can detect in that range.
In game terms, it would basically mean you can hack things without having to physically interact with them, which isn't that hard to implement. You could hack a terminal in an adjacent room, for example, unless there's some sort of signal blocking equipment in there.
Another crazy idea. What's to stop us from making a Doc Wagon mode for this then handle rescues in a similar way to what Shiren does?
[Edit] Ok here is a provisional list of spells. When I get to that point these will be added 1 school at a time in order of how easy I feel they will be to add.
Clairvoyance(Detection) – reveals map and all enemies.
Analyze and Disarm(Detection) – Destroys adjacent trap.
Combat Sense(Detection) – Increases
Detect Enemies(Detection) – Shows all enemy mobs around the caster
Detect Trap(Detection) – Detects traps around the caster
Reveal(Detection) -- Shows map around the caster
Cure Poison(Heath)
Increased Reflexes(Heath) – Increases speed.
Treat(Heath) – Healing spell.
Regen(Heath) – Heal over time.
Sap Enemy Heath(Heath) – Lower enemy speed.
Buff Self(Heath) – Raise all stats.
Sleep(Psychic)
Sleep Ball(Psychic)
Confuse(Psychic)
Confuse Ball(Psychic)
Telepath(Psychic) – Show all enemies with a mind.
Friend(Psychic)* – Make mob an ally
Mind Control(Psychic)** -- Possess and control an enemy
Invisibility(Illusion)
Mirror Image(Illusion) -- increases casters dodge skill
Camouflage(Illusion) -- increases stealth skill
Disguise(Illusion)* -- increases social stealth skills
Chaos(Illusion) – lowers mobs chance to hit
Chaos Ball (Illusion)
Knockback(Telekinesis) – Move target way from caster
Blowback(Telekinesis) – Move all mobs around the caster back
Poltergeist(Telekinesis) – Confuse and do light damage in a ball
Telekinetic Blow(Telekinesis) – Throw object at target for damage
Shield(Telekinesis) -- Incoming objects are slowed protecting the caster (adds to armor)
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited March 2008
I know this is probably thinking a little too far up, but it'd be nice if you started (I dunno what TOME is like but) it from the get-go as a client-server application. . . the thought of possible running into other runners or co-op running is making me hard. very hard. extremely hard.
the thought of difficulty getting harder exponentially with multiple players is also intriguing.
Hmmm, I think I'll stick to a single player roguelike but thanks. Not that some company shouldn't be doing a shadowrun MMO instead of whatever crap they are working on now.
So I'm going to list all the classes that I've really thought about adding to this. Two things. First I think the current plan is for cyberware to be limited by a skill and these descriptions are pretty explicit about how cheap or expensive this skill is for the class. Second these are listed in rough order that I think they might be added to the game.
CLASS LIST
Street Sam:
Only those who find the idea of replacing body parts wholesale exhilarating instead of terrifying need apply for this job. Skilled in various combat arts and at home in with the dregs of society that live on the streets, the Street Samurai is a dangerous if obvious opponent.
Combat Mage:
While combat mages can manipulate magic in a myriad of ways they delight in more direct spells than bring down their enemies quickly. Her extensive studies leave little time to pick up more mundane skills and any cyberware would interfere with the Mages connection with the mystical forces he uses.
Physical Adept:
Years of training and a mystical connection to their body give the Physical Adept blindingly fast reflexes and amazing strength and skill. Since they don't have a lot of obvious implants or heavy weapons PAs have a lot less to explain at checkpoints. In addition they may use (some?) spells from the Heath school of magic. Any cyberware would interfere with the PAs perfect command of his body.
Former Corp Man:
This operator is used to blending in while in a corporate environment. Some say that in addition to having considerably more subtlety than a Street Sam these men rely more on skill and less on a cybered up body than a Street Sam. Still they are looking for whatever edge they can find.
Gang Member:
Exposure to the various criminal operations of his gang leave the typical member a sort of jack of all trades knowing a little bit about a lot of things from knife fighting to disabling security systems. In emergencies the gang member can call upon his gang to bail him out of trouble. A gang member has no more or no less affinity for cyberware than the average person.
Street Shaman:
This new-age mystic has a deep attachment to the spirits he sees around him. He can use them to manipulate the world around him (spells) but is particularly skilled at summoning them to his side to aid him more directly. Any cyberware would make the spirits less trusting of their friend.
Wireless Hacker:
All the systems that make the modern computing world so convenient are used by this hacker to bend them to his will. He can disable security systems, take control of computerized drones, and open doors. If he can get within rage of a wireless node, he can use other skill (probably technically spells) that will have a slightly more global effect (i.e. area effect spells downloading maps, putting drones to sleep, etc.). His skill at controlling computers transfers well to controlling cyberware.
Otaku: Can get much of the same effect as a Wireless Hacker but without all the hardware. While cyberware would interfere with her abilities an Otaku can also learn magic of the various schools if she really puts her mind to it.
Astral Adept: Can project out of his body for a short distance. In this state most enemies can't even see much less attack the adept but the adept in turn can only interact in a limited way with the physical world. But scouting ahead will give him invaluable information.
Decker: Considered old fashioned by some, a decker uses the much higher bandwidth of a wired connection to interact with the Matrix on a deeper level. This might get him access to the most closely guarded data and secrets of a large corporation and a huge payday. It might also leave him dead from black ice induced biofeedback.
[edit] One last dump from my design doc before I hit the road for a bit. I'll probably be working more on the test roguelike starting tomorrow.
Skills:
Each category has a rating of 1/2 the maximum of the skill it contains and further lowered by a factor depending on the class. It can be used for a default rating if that is higher than one of the relevant skills. Many skills are so specialized there is no group for them. To raise each skill will take the number of skill points equal to the current level of the skill squared times a modifier based on the class. Not all classes can learn all skills. Magic skills use as mix of stats depending on class.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited March 2008
hey OP you should change the thread title to something spiffier. something like "We're making a shadowrun roguelike: Brainstorm On" that way we may get some more creative juices flowing.
I think wireless decking would be a problem from a design standpoint. With wired decking you can make certain systems only accessible from certain terminals and control a player's progression through a "dungeon" that way. With wireless that gets trickier. This might be that I just don't like the wireless stuff even in the pnp version, I don't know.
hey OP you should change the thread title to something spiffier. something like "We're making a shadowrun roguelike: Brainstorm On" that way we may get some more creative juices flowing.
Probably once I have the first "real", that is not 1 level test, version done I'll make a new OP so I can update it myself. Again I'm having fun with this idea but don't get your hopes up too much, there is a decent to high chance I'll get fed up with the lack of comments and documentation for TOME and give up.
I think wireless decking would be a problem from a design standpoint. With wired decking you can make certain systems only accessible from certain terminals and control a player's progression through a "dungeon" that way. With wireless that gets trickier. This might be that I just don't like the wireless stuff even in the pnp version, I don't know.
Well the way I see it, I'm planing to modify what they can do to fit in a roguelike. Basically they will be like mages that can "control", i.e. make friendly, one class of mobs: drones. They will also be able to use their skills to open doors and disarm traps at a distance. They might get an attack spell that only works on mobs that are designated as cyber. Also there will be objects called wireless nodes in the dungeon that will be the only allowable target for some other "spells". These will be AOEs that might put all drones to sleep, open all doors, disarm all traps or whatever.
Finally they should have decent ability to fit cybergear so should be able to fight for themselves if there are no drones for them to comandeer. I hope to be able to have their normal skills decrease while they are "controlling" drones. As suggested above the range of the hacker's abilities will be determined by his or her comlink's rating.
But no need to worry about that yet, any kind of hackers are a long way off.
lowlylowlycook on
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited March 2008
oh, based on your apparent fervor for the idea I just assumed you were the OP.
I'd like to see stun damage instead of mp. I still want it to have more shadowrun rules! nobody is going to listen to me but hey I can still rave in a corner. And with stun damage then you can knock people out and stuff.
Furthermore I think it would be okay to have some nodes require a direct connection to the comlink. It could be like a seperated LAN system of a building thats not accessible from the regular internet. The security system of a building would still be wirelessly hackable but not say the ultraviolet super secure top secret data storage haven thing. And it says you can wirelessly hack things like cyberarms and other smart cyberware system.
How are you going to handle summons? Just spells that make a pet?
Well again, I'm open to ideas but if I make a game it will pretty much be a roguelike and you'll have to convince me that these actual shadowrun rules will work in a roguelike setting. So I'm thinking that if you are knocked out for any time, it would take a lot of luck to survive that. Maybe once we get Doc Wagon(tm) put in it would make a bit more sense.
Also in a roguelike each casting of a spell will probably be less decisive than it would be in the PnP setting so you have to give the player the chance to cast more spells than they would in the PnP game.
So, I wouldn't mind having a system of stun damage or whatever but for me it isn't a high priority. If you want me to consider it think about how it could work in a roguelike then convince me you are right.
I think that is how they do summoning in TOME so I'd just steal that in all likelihood. Anything else that you might do with a spirit could be added as a spell. Any ideas on that?
Excuse me, I have to defrag my drive so I can repartition it and then install Ubuntu. Later.
lowlylowlycook on
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I think having spells cause stun damage to the caster is something that was put into the PnP game to make sure magic has a high cost, so mages and shamans are still rare. Since this game would be more munchkinish than the pnp game MP to me are more appropriate.
But one thing I do like is shadowrun's wound system (as opposed to HP). It always made more sense to me and I think it could work well in this game.
I like the docwagon idea. It makes permadeath an option without the game being too sadistic. This is kind of pie-in-the-sky, but imagine if once you're incapacitated you take control of the docwagon guy, having to fight his way in and recover your body. Different levels of docwagon contracts would give you a more powerful guy coming to your rescue.
Thanks to whatever dickhead decided to use all the primary partitions when designing the default Dell XPS disk setup there has been a slight change of plans.
So far notepad++ has made a good impression as far as context highlighting this lua code and what have you but ideally I'll still need a better way to search for function declarations and such as well as set up multiple pages in Vista so my desktop doesn't get far too cluttered. Hopefully I can get a useful setup that will work at least until I have to run TOME in a debugger or something.
In the meantime, keep coming up with ideas for mobs to kill and be killed by.
I think cyberhounds are a must because how else would we kill off any promising characters if not by packs of relentless enemies that are too fast to escape from and too numerous to kill. At least they won't have breath weapons. Mostly.
Also I think having cybermantic zombies lifted from my Cybertechnology source book would make for some dangerous end-game kind of mobs. These are basically street sams that have had "delta grade" implants and also some kind of magic that allows them to survive with negative essence. Should be fast, deadly and hard to kill.
Finally I think it would be cool to run into teams of UCAS special ops that are trying to scout ways for them to gain control of the arcology.
lowlylowlycook on
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The cyberhounds should be full of bees and when they bark they shoot bees at you IMO
Like someone said earlier, I think for now we should just put together a very basic level, almost like a tutorial so we know we can at least make this stuff work.
The easiest premise as far as I know is that you (the character) are an office drone working for Renraku when the arcology shuts down and goes to shit, sealing everyone inside. Your goal is to get out and wacky hijincks ensue. This way you start off with nothing, no cyberware, magic, weapons, or anything.
I'm not familiar with the Renraku shutdown module (is it a module?). Does anyone know the rough backstory?
Edited: I googled it, which I guess I should've done in the first place. Maybe a better question would be does anyone own the thing?
Stun damage can just basically be MP (it can regenerate fairly quickly or when you rest). Its just that if you use too much magic too quickly you get an impairment of your skills. So are you using whatever the standard combat mechanic is in TOME?
OK another brain dump. After messing around with TOME I decided that the combat system it uses by default has a lot of dumb features I don't really like. Hence, I've been thinking about just coding up something. Here is my current idea. If features a reliance on ratios vs. differences for computation. I'm using the arctan function since it has a lot of nice features, being bounded slope 1 at the origin, etc. This means that if the two variables being compared are equal you will have a 50% chance of success.
Details below:
General Skill System
x=(Skill+Stat+Bonuses+Penalties)/(O_Skill+O_Stat+O_Bonuses)
P=probability of success = (2/pi)*arctan(x)
O_=opposing
This function = zero with zero skill;slope of 1 near zero; .5 with equal skills/bonuses; 1 with a ratio of infinity. Near x = zero you could assume that P=x, with a big x you can assume P=1.
If we want to have a higher chance of success with low skill we could use 1-exp(-k*x) instead.
Example: Shooting a mob with a pistol
x=(Pistol Skill+Quickness+Smartweapon bonus+cyber eye bonus-range penalty)/(Mob_Dodge)
P=probability of a hit =k*arctan(x)
Note: monster dodge stat includes dodge+quickness
Example2: Disarming a trap:
x=(Disarm skill+Intelligence+tool bonus)/(trap difficulty)
P=probability of disarming the trap.
Combat system:
All attacks take 1 move as does moving 1 square, reloading a gun, etc.
Bursts are 3 shots taken as one. Each shot has a penalty.
If you have 2 weapons equipped you attack with both but with a penalty.
List of bonuses/penalties:
Blind fire (darkness or actual blindness from spells)
Range -(distance_to_target/weapon_range) rounding down.
Item bonuses, e.g. Smartweapons,laser sights.
Burst fire penalty
2 hand fighting penalty 2 pistols/two swords/etc.
Using ranged attack on adjacent mob penalty
Weapon stats:
Damage xdy+z
Range in spaces
Penetration
Fire mode (modes?)
Damage type?
Ammo stats:
Damage multiplier
Penetration multiplier
Damage type?
Mob stats
AI
HP
Deflection Rating
Absorption Rating
Dodge
List of attacks
Damage for each attack
Damage type for each attack
Range for each attack
Resistances?
Damage System:
Deflection Chance:
P=probability of zero damage
x=(Deflection Rating/Penetration Rating)
Absorption
P=percent of damage going through
x=(Absorption Rating/Penetration Rating)
As always any comments/additions are welcome.
lowlylowlycook on
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Lowly, you're working the wrong way on a project like this, running with the grand overdesign and endgame material while we're still trying to figure out whether or not we can build a level.
Some ideas (Some of these have been mentioned before, some not).
1.) We need to determine whether we're going to have the basic idea be a hapless renraku employee/resident, or actual shadowrunner.
I'm partial to the idea of actual shadow runners. Perhaps as a hardcore variant, you can decide to play as a hapless employee who is about to retired and 'too old for this shit,' who begins in the middle of the arcology and can either try and go up to get to the vtol pad, or down to the ground level.
2.) Checkpoint permadeath.
Doc Wagon is brave and true, but the Renraku arcology has, if I recall, dedicated anti-air equipment, and was known as a grinder for trained shadow runners going in covert ops style. Rather than have a doc wagon as an option (other than maybe the _very_ first levels), have achievement style checkpoint permadeath. When a shadowrunner on your account has breached x levels or accomplished y objectives, they can be considered to have established a forward point where future reinforcements could arrive. These reinforcements could come in the form of the aforementioned doc wagon contract (a very narrow range of AA has been disabled, allowing evac from this floor only), or future characters. Future characters could be made with stats fitting with someone who would have reached that point in a dry run, arguably having 'fought their way' to the checkpoint.
This gives the additional option of having remnant experience between playthroughs. If character A advances through the first 10 levels of the arcology using primarily hacking and stealth, and establishes a safe room on level 10a (actually a droid maintenance hanger, but whatever) and later on bites it, we could then create a character with some additional ability in his aforementioned skills. Do enough runs and your characters will naturally better themselves.
Obviously a hardcore mode could be included where this is not a factor.
3.) NPC Interaction.
Renraku is a full arcology. It has businesses, housing, manufacturing. This means that there will be non-hostile NPCs in many areas. Perhaps they can be used to randomly generate quests (my daughter/sister/wife/boyfried/father is trapped in the Lone Star Cells/Bank of Aztechnology/Chip Den). Additionally NPCs can then join you.
4.) Hacking
Hacking needs to be implemented. I would suggest a piece of equipment that at level 1 allows one space hacking, with one hacked at a time. At x-1 level (X being max level) it can affect up to line of sight, and at level X it can hack one square beyond line of sight. There could be a secondary level Y that indicates how many objects can be hacked at once. A hacked item, if left by simply hacking another item without first logging off the first, will cause the first to malfunction and, if appropriate, trigger an alarm. Implement a tertiary level Z that is the power of the device, then for the simple wireless commlink there are X^Y^Z possible random iterations.
5.) Character creation
Classes are antithetical to the concept of shadowrun. At character creation, give points to spend (doesn't need to be fancy) among a group of abilities that could be as narrow as physical/mental/spiritual. Pick a race (Most races will give a +1/-1, though some could get +2/-1/-1 or +2/-2, allowing up to 16 races with only those differing attributes), put a few points (3-5), and click style (your theoretical 'classes) such as street samurai (Physical), Decker (Mental), Shaman (Spiritual), Otaku (Mental/Spiritual). If we have 8 styles, 16 races, and 5 points to spend in attributes, we then have 8^16^5 or 1.7668 x 10^72 generated starting options, with minimal work.
6.) Races
Most races can have sizes. If you are medium you can use everything (albeit at a penalty if it's the wrong size), if you are small you can't use large and vice versa. Randomly generated areas can have different tags ('you're too big to fit down this security droid service shaft to the lower level/you're too small to use this turret') Items can then have 3 variants beyond anything else. In addition to the tags, we can have each race have a unique ability.
7.) Items
Okay, by items I mean primarily weapons. Everything is a weapon of some sort. A commlink is a weapon to hack with, a sword is a weapon to hack with, all that differs is the medium. Firearm implementation is a _must_. 8 axis firing only, with the option of smartlink allowing for targetted (I.E. click on the opponent) firing out of the 8 axis. Firearms could be an average of physical/mental, or if we would rather have subcategories of each of the major attributes, we could do that. Range, power, accuracy, ammo, reload time, size, all are variables, allowing us to have A^B^C^D^E^F variants of firearms alone.
8.) Styles
Styles dictate your starting equipment, and what special skill you have. Each skill is unique to that style, but can be replicated by equipment. Otaku can hack without a commlink, Street Samurai can modify cyberware without a cyberware clinic, etc. Each ability gives rudimentary level of proficiency, with more levels giving better results. Each ability would basically set the default level of the ability at 1, rather than 0 (0 would be unusable).
9.) Enemies
Enemies can run the gamut from magical beasts, to security drones, to employees, to other shadowrunners, to government ops. There is a lot of options here. Too many to count.
10.) Randomization
The arcology maps are corrupted, renraku refuses to release it's own maps citing personal interest, and all things considered the arcology is huge. Gives easy reason for it not being the same each time.
11.) Attributes
We can either stick to core attributes, or have the three attributes split into subsets of 3 again. Attack/Defense/Speed, with everything running off two of the three. Bust down a door? Atk + Def. Dodge a sword swing? Def + Spd. Shoot a gun? Atk + Def. Similar categories for Mental/Spiritual.
12.) Stun damage.
Well, if we want to make the game really tough, we have HP/MP/SP. Run out of one, subsequent attacks start going to the others. Shadowrun is entirely possible to have contingencies set up in case you flatline (adrenal packs, the aforementioned doc wagon). Enemies can hit HP (Physical), MP (Graymatter damage), or SP (Stun/Spiritual). SP -> HP -> MP. Your SP goes and you end up unconcious. Your HP goes and your body is thrashed, but hey, cyberware is shiny. Your MP goes and your graymatter is charred and you aren't coming back. Natural regen on all three.
Now, all the above are just theoretical ideas. Let's see what the code will support first.
On starting as a runner vs. office drone: I prefer office drone because one of the cool things about a game like this is the progression from a pudgy nobody armed with a letter opener to a near-invincible badass.
One of the ways to get around the problem of docwagon being able to get into the arcology is to just not have permadeath. When you die, you can reload a save. I know we're trying to make a "roguelike" here but I don't think we have to feel handcuffed by that term.
As far as game mechanics go, what lowly has posted looks fine to me, but I don't think we need to get too ambitious about coding things from scratch. Probably easier to try and workaround TOME than to create a new system, at least that's my gut feeling. I could be wrong though.
OK just to give others an idea of what might be involved here, I'll post a bit of code from one of the "tutorial" modules for TOME. I've actually added a few lines here myself since before I did, the players attacks were silent with no feedback on what was going on. This is the combat system for a roguelike, obviously a very simple one. There is no "to hit" check at all and armor rating subtracts off from the damage done.
attack = function(y, x, max)
-- Do not fight illusory monsters
local m_idx = cave(y,x).m_idx
if m_idx == 0 then return end
-- Get the mob
local monst = monster(m_idx)
-- Get the damage/type
local typ = dam.MELEE
local dam = player.adj_str_td[player.stat(A_STR) + 1]
if player.inventory[INVEN_MAINHAND][1] and player.inventory[INVEN_MAINHAND][1].flags[FLAG_DAM] then
local dams = player.inventory[INVEN_MAINHAND][1].flags[FLAG_DAM]
typ = flag_max_key(dams)
-- Randomize the damage
dam = dam + rng(flag_get(dams, typ), flag_get2(dams, typ))
end
-- Reduce damage using monster AC
dam = dam - rng(monst.ac / 3, monst.ac)
if dam < 0 then
dam = 0
message("Your attack does nothing")
end
-- Ensure it is not completly frustrating
if dam < 1 and monst.level <= player.lev then dam = 1 end
-- Handles the combat skill
dam = dam + get_skill(SKILL_COMBAT)
-- DIE MONSTER DIE !! MUAHAHAHAHAHHA !! .. erm .. sorry
-- Basically we just call the damage giver function on the monster spot
-- telling it to do a radius 0 attack of the given type and damage
-- caused by the player
message("Your attack hits home for "..dam..".")
project(WHO_PLAYER, 0, y, x, dam, typ, PROJECT_JUMP | PROJECT_HIDE | PROJECT_HIDE_BLAST | PROJECT_STOP | PROJECT_KILL | PROJECT_NO_REFLECT)
end,
If we put in our own combat system then we'd have to do something similar but probably quite a bit more involved. A good thing about TOME is the large number of modules that we could be taking code from then modifying to suit this games. Maybe take the firearms combat from one and the magic system from another, etc.
In any case I do plan to take this slow. I'll first try to change the names in this tutorial module, then make a few changes to the combat/classes or whatever, then try to add in firearms. We'll see how it goes.
lowlylowlycook on
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Posts
Usually delving into dungeons.
Ah, ok.
I knew that much but I honestly thought it was more specific than that.
Thank you, though.
You don't really need all of those but most roguelike feature them.
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In the meantime I've put together a list of objectives for 3 iterations of this idea, well for the first 2 really. Note: I'm leaning towards going with classes just for easier balancing and replay value, they should be soft classes in that most (i.e. non-magic) skills will be available to all characters but a various prices in skill points.
Anyway I've spoilered the lists here:
First: simple test game set in an arcologie's zoo.
Second: single arcology game.
Third: general game with various arcologies, city map, quests, etc.
First game description: You, a faithful corp wageslave, were enjoying your lunch break in the zoo your corp thoughtfully provided. A band of hulligans shut down the power as part of their plan to infiltrate into the HQ levels. The animals have escaped their cages, fleeing patrons and workers have dropped items everywhere and getting out of here will not be easy. Luckily you have found a pistol dropped by a guard as he was eaten by a Naga.
This is just to test my ability to understand TOME's module system.
First game feature list:
- Guns which need reloaded and have 3 ammo types, flechette, normal and AP.
- “Monster type†mobs and “Zookeeper type†mobs.
- A few levels with the goal to escape.
- 3 combat systems with 3 skills HTH, Melee, and Firearms.
First game option feature list:Second game description: The Renraku Arcology has shut down. Try to survive or even to escape this hellhole.
This will be a lot like vanilla ANGBAND. One big dungeon with lots of random levels. Maybe start at the bottom and work to the roof to get a chopper evac as the goal.
Second game feature list:
Second game optional feature list: ()= optional feature that class would use.
Skill list: *ed skills are for optional features. After the : comes the specializations.
I've listed some things as optional because I don't know how easy it will be to add them or even if it is easy to add in principle, it's clear that it will take a lot of work to do so. The matrix is a good example of the latter case since it is really a whole extra game.
Let me know about any ideas I've missed, or why this approach is stupid or whatever. I've put off a lot of the cooler ideas to the 3rd iteration hopefully making these first two more or less straightforward.
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So it turns out that this is $40 used from Amazon. From reading reviews, etc., online I've gleaned the following:
Rogue AI takes over the Arcology in particular the security system and a bunch of drones.
The arcology is sealed off by the military for a long time at least a couple years.
What I need to know is whether it would still make sense to have black market and fences operating in this scenario. I'm thinking it would since all kind of commodities would become rare pretty quickly. More problematic would be having black clinics where cyberware would be installed. Probably gameplay has to trump realism in any case.
What I'm thinking of is having some levels be safe where the residents have secured the area and these would operate as towns do in other roguelikes, i.e. safe areas with shops.
Other things that might be useful would be a list of likely enemies. Obviously there would be drones everywhere and I think I read something about some kind of Street Sams taken over by the AI through their cyberwear. It would be easy to imagine special levels like a Zoo floor that has run wild or whatever. Hmmmm, maybe the marketing dept. and finance have formed gangs that are constantly at war. What else am I missing?
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magical research / magical security departments, will give you areas to put the more dangerous magical beasties, and escaped spirits.
Details below:
x=(Skill+Stat+Bonuses+Penalties)/(O_Skill+O_Stat+O_Bonuses)
P=probability of success = (2/pi)*arctan(x)
O_=opposing
This function = zero with zero skill;slope of 1 near zero; .5 with equal skills/bonuses; 1 with a ratio of infinity. Near x = zero you could assume that P=x, with a big x you can assume P=1.
If we want to have a higher chance of success with low skill we could use 1-exp(-k*x) instead.
Example: Shooting a mob with a pistol
x=(Pistol Skill+Quickness+Smartweapon bonus+cyber eye bonus-range penalty)/(Mob_Dodge)
P=probability of a hit =k*arctan(x)
Note: monster dodge stat includes dodge+quickness
Example2: Disarming a trap:
x=(Disarm skill+Intelligence+tool bonus)/(trap difficulty)
P=probability of disarming the trap.
Combat system:
All attacks take 1 move as does moving 1 square, reloading a gun, etc.
Bursts are 3 shots taken as one. Each shot has a penalty.
If you have 2 weapons equipped you attack with
List of bonuses/penalties:
Blind fire (darkness or actual blindness from spells)
Range -(distance_to_target/weapon_range) rounding down.
Item bonuses, e.g. Smartweapons,laser sights.
Burst fire penalty
2 hand fighting penalty 2 pistols/two swords/etc.
Using ranged attack on adjacent mob penalty
Weapon stats:
Damage xdy+z
Range in spaces
Penetration
Fire mode (modes?)
Damage type?
Ammo stats:
Damage multiplier
Penetration multiplier
Damage type?
Mob stats
AI
HP
Armor Rating
Dodge
List of attacks
Damage for each attack
Damage type for each attack
Range for each attack
Resistances?
Damage System:
Deflection Chance:
P=probability of zero damage
x=(Armor Rating/Penetration Rating)
Absorption
P=percent of damage going through
x=(Armor Rating/Penetration Rating)
As always any comments/additions are welcome.
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Steam Support is the worst. Seriously, the worst
I am, however, a marketer. Along with a gamer.
Sir Carcass: That sounds like the kind of thing that would be neat to add once we have more basic things working. Sort of make wireless hackers, or maybe just otaku, a mezzing/mind control class. I know TOME has crazy classes like possessors that get different stats including different numbers of arms depending on what they possess so I think a lot of things are possible given time.
More stuff I'm trying to flesh out this time cyberware, weapons. I'd like to hear any ideas about useful non-weapon gear and how many such slots we'd need. I don't want too many since we have cyber-gear to keep track of as well.
Cyberware System:
We need some kind of limit to the amount that can be installed. We could use the essence system from SR 2ed. Which gives 6pts of essence to spend and that is tied to the magic system via a lowered magic attribute.
I suggest an ego-item system for the actual item but this needs further thought.
Some possible egos:
Refurbished
Obsolete
Experimental
Cutting Edge
Bio-Engineered
Military Grade
So you could find/buy either Obsolete Skill-Wires or Military Grade Wired Reflexes.
The easiest thing we could have these modify would be the essence cost but it would be nice if they could effect the stats as well. Or even add the possibility of malfunction.
Slots where cyberware is equipped but they can only be installed in Black Clinics.
Slots:What can be installed there.
Head1:Eyes, Low Light, IR, etc.
Head2:Skill wires,Cyberjack,Ear mods
Body1:Wired Reflexes
Body2:Dermal Plating,Muscle Replacement,Air Filter
Body3:See Body 2.
L arm:Razors, Spurs, Smartlink,Cyber Limb
R arm:See Larm
Legs:Cyber Limbs
Inventory/Equip System
Slots:
Armor:Armor comes in complete suits.
Right Hand:Weapon Slot
Left Hand:Weapon Slot
Head: Aux Slot for IR goggles or head mounted flashlight, etc.
Weapon System:
Each weapon has the following stats
Range:Damage:To hit bonus:Penetration:Fire Modes:Damage Type
Base weapons with mods as “egos”, think of things like “holy avenger” or “of fire” from most roguelikes.
Ares predator with laser sight is a base ares predator with whatever bonuses the “laser sight” ego gives. Special shops should be able to upgrade weapons with new egos. Each weapon would have a flag for each ego to see if it can be applied so no silenced shotguns or revolvers, etc. Maybe limit these to two per weapon.
List of ranged egos:
laser sight: increases to hit chance
silencer: lower steath penalty
shock pads: lower burst penalty
gas vent:lower burst penalty
scope: raises range
smart weapon: raises to hit chance and range buy only with smartlink
custom: only from stores. increases to hit chance
List of melee egos:
Monofilament, diamond edge?
Materials
Dunno.
Ammo:
Three classes of ammo: Pistol, Shotgun and Rifle.
Weapons can be loaded with 3 types of ammo that modify the stats of the weapon.
Standard: Standard, duh.
Flechettes: Raise damage but lowers penetration.
AP:Lower damage but raise penetration
Anyone have an awesome idea for a magic system for this? I haven't come up with anything yet.
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For magic, I think just a straightforward MP system would work. The one thing with cool potential is astral projection, dunno you would code it (I know fuck all about coding) but it feels doable.
The magic system could have a ton of variety too, what with all the different totem options. With a bunch of guys providing content you could have a great magic system.
As for roguelike: my ideal version of this game would be more forgiving than a classic roguelike.
We are far from having to worry about balance yet but I'm not opposed necessarily to having non-permadeath as an option or even as the default. We also talked about having doc wagon contracts which might ease the pain a bit.
[edit]
So more about the magic system:
Mages and Shaman in Shadowrun are very flexible. They can summon; they can cast various spells; they can project astrally; and more that I'm probably forgetting. Do you guys think I should keep them in or should I have classes that correspond to different kinds of adepts instead? If I keep them, any ideas on making them balanced? Of course they could just be the munchkin class. This is a roguelike after all.
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I'm not sure if I really understand this. My idea was to have terminals where you could jack in then be in essence teleported to the matrix where if you obtained certain objectives then you could open all the doors, disable all the traps or download a map depending.
If you mean having both going at the same time then I'm afraid that is beyond any hope of my coding it or frankly playing it.
Sir Carcass's idea has the advantage of being easier to implement than a separate matrix so we might go wireless after all.
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I think the best to make it feel like Shadowrun is let you hire fellow runners. I see it where they have basic follow and survival behavior, but you can also command them from a menu like Hack->Select Terminal or Attack->Ranged->Select Target. Otherwise your character will pretty much have to be all things, and then it kind of loses something.
For magic, if I were coding it, I would leave that out entirely until the game is "released". Get the basics and cyberware working first, then add magic.
Also, I would second the idea of making it as close to Shadowrun as possible without it being "Shadowrun". Not only can you tailor the world to the game, but you don't have to worry about a C&D.
Steam Support is the worst. Seriously, the worst
Edit: magic wouldn't be that hard to do. It just does things that would be already present in the game without having to use technology item and then applying stun damage. You can wait on summoning spirits and adept powers though.
The way I'm doing this is by making a mod for the TOME engine. This means a magic system might be easier to code (read copy&paste) than the cyberware system. But this TOME engine is very flexible and at least one mod had a party system instead of the classic 1 player character roguelike play.
If this goes far enough that we get a C&D letter for a mod to a Angand variant then I guess we will just have to live with that. I guess if things are really coming together at some point then we could think about changing a few names or whatever.
Oh, and I only have the 2nd ed. rules so I know jack about wireless hacking.
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Magic system:
How do magic users get spells? Do we have spellbooks that are carried or
do we have some way to learn them and they become innate?
Set up like this we don't have to have mana points rising too rapidly as the mage levels since each spell cast should become more effective. Maybe have a skill that adds mp.
Also, I'll bring up this edit that came near the bottom of last page.
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The actual rules are a little different, but as a concept it's pretty simple. Basically, the Matrix as we knew it crashed and was rebuilt with various wireless nodes, similar to a wireless internet. Now almost everyone carries a comlink. It works as a PDA, but also does a lot more. You can have cyberware hooked up to your comlink, so a smartgun for instance could have it's firing mode changed to auto just by thinking about it. Most normal people have a MySpace like page on their comlink that is transmitted, so if you see someone you can pull up their profile, if it's public, to see more about them. Even clothes can be hooked up to a comlink so you can, for instance, change the color of your jacket on the fly. And like if you walk in a record store, it will scan your comlink to see what kind of music you have, then present you similar selections, which you can then purchase and download right to your comlink. Most people interact with their comlink through AR, or Altered Reality. It's kind of like the computer from Minority Report, except only they can see it.
As far as hackers go, there are really no more cyberdecks or datajacks. Most computer networks are wireless (though some high security systems are still line based). A hacker can access any network that his comlink can reach, which is based on its signal rating. I know my comlink on my hacker has a rating of 5, which gives it a range of about 4km. So I can hack anything I can detect in that range.
In game terms, it would basically mean you can hack things without having to physically interact with them, which isn't that hard to implement. You could hack a terminal in an adjacent room, for example, unless there's some sort of signal blocking equipment in there.
Steam Support is the worst. Seriously, the worst
[Edit] Ok here is a provisional list of spells. When I get to that point these will be added 1 school at a time in order of how easy I feel they will be to add.
Manabolt(Combat)
Manaball(Combat)
Firebolt(Combat)
Fireball(Combat)
Icebolt(Combat)
Iceball(Combat)
Lightningbolt(Combat)
Lightningbolt(Combat)
Clairvoyance(Detection) – reveals map and all enemies.
Analyze and Disarm(Detection) – Destroys adjacent trap.
Combat Sense(Detection) – Increases
Detect Enemies(Detection) – Shows all enemy mobs around the caster
Detect Trap(Detection) – Detects traps around the caster
Reveal(Detection) -- Shows map around the caster
Cure Poison(Heath)
Increased Reflexes(Heath) – Increases speed.
Treat(Heath) – Healing spell.
Regen(Heath) – Heal over time.
Sap Enemy Heath(Heath) – Lower enemy speed.
Buff Self(Heath) – Raise all stats.
Sleep(Psychic)
Sleep Ball(Psychic)
Confuse(Psychic)
Confuse Ball(Psychic)
Telepath(Psychic) – Show all enemies with a mind.
Friend(Psychic)* – Make mob an ally
Mind Control(Psychic)** -- Possess and control an enemy
Invisibility(Illusion)
Mirror Image(Illusion) -- increases casters dodge skill
Camouflage(Illusion) -- increases stealth skill
Disguise(Illusion)* -- increases social stealth skills
Chaos(Illusion) – lowers mobs chance to hit
Chaos Ball (Illusion)
Knockback(Telekinesis) – Move target way from caster
Blowback(Telekinesis) – Move all mobs around the caster back
Poltergeist(Telekinesis) – Confuse and do light damage in a ball
Telekinetic Blow(Telekinesis) – Throw object at target for damage
Shield(Telekinesis) -- Incoming objects are slowed protecting the caster (adds to armor)
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the thought of difficulty getting harder exponentially with multiple players is also intriguing.
So I'm going to list all the classes that I've really thought about adding to this. Two things. First I think the current plan is for cyberware to be limited by a skill and these descriptions are pretty explicit about how cheap or expensive this skill is for the class. Second these are listed in rough order that I think they might be added to the game.
CLASS LIST
Street Sam:
Only those who find the idea of replacing body parts wholesale exhilarating instead of terrifying need apply for this job. Skilled in various combat arts and at home in with the dregs of society that live on the streets, the Street Samurai is a dangerous if obvious opponent.
Combat Mage:
While combat mages can manipulate magic in a myriad of ways they delight in more direct spells than bring down their enemies quickly. Her extensive studies leave little time to pick up more mundane skills and any cyberware would interfere with the Mages connection with the mystical forces he uses.
Physical Adept:
Years of training and a mystical connection to their body give the Physical Adept blindingly fast reflexes and amazing strength and skill. Since they don't have a lot of obvious implants or heavy weapons PAs have a lot less to explain at checkpoints. In addition they may use (some?) spells from the Heath school of magic. Any cyberware would interfere with the PAs perfect command of his body.
Former Corp Man:
This operator is used to blending in while in a corporate environment. Some say that in addition to having considerably more subtlety than a Street Sam these men rely more on skill and less on a cybered up body than a Street Sam. Still they are looking for whatever edge they can find.
Gang Member:
Exposure to the various criminal operations of his gang leave the typical member a sort of jack of all trades knowing a little bit about a lot of things from knife fighting to disabling security systems. In emergencies the gang member can call upon his gang to bail him out of trouble. A gang member has no more or no less affinity for cyberware than the average person.
Street Shaman:
This new-age mystic has a deep attachment to the spirits he sees around him. He can use them to manipulate the world around him (spells) but is particularly skilled at summoning them to his side to aid him more directly. Any cyberware would make the spirits less trusting of their friend.
Wireless Hacker:
All the systems that make the modern computing world so convenient are used by this hacker to bend them to his will. He can disable security systems, take control of computerized drones, and open doors. If he can get within rage of a wireless node, he can use other skill (probably technically spells) that will have a slightly more global effect (i.e. area effect spells downloading maps, putting drones to sleep, etc.). His skill at controlling computers transfers well to controlling cyberware.
Otaku: Can get much of the same effect as a Wireless Hacker but without all the hardware. While cyberware would interfere with her abilities an Otaku can also learn magic of the various schools if she really puts her mind to it.
Astral Adept: Can project out of his body for a short distance. In this state most enemies can't even see much less attack the adept but the adept in turn can only interact in a limited way with the physical world. But scouting ahead will give him invaluable information.
Decker: Considered old fashioned by some, a decker uses the much higher bandwidth of a wired connection to interact with the Matrix on a deeper level. This might get him access to the most closely guarded data and secrets of a large corporation and a huge payday. It might also leave him dead from black ice induced biofeedback.
[edit] One last dump from my design doc before I hit the road for a bit. I'll probably be working more on the test roguelike starting tomorrow.
Skills:
Each category has a rating of 1/2 the maximum of the skill it contains and further lowered by a factor depending on the class. It can be used for a default rating if that is higher than one of the relevant skills. Many skills are so specialized there is no group for them. To raise each skill will take the number of skill points equal to the current level of the skill squared times a modifier based on the class. Not all classes can learn all skills. Magic skills use as mix of stats depending on class.
Skill groups
Category Firearms(Quick):
Pistol,Rifle,Submachine Gun, Shotgun
Category Melee(Str):
Armed, Unarmed,Cyberweapons
Category Technical(Int):
Lockpick, Disarm, Explosives
Category Social(Cha):
Corp Ettiqitte, Streetsmarts, Negotiation
Category Hacking(Qui+Int):
Wireless,Decking,Drone Control
Ungrouped skills:
Cyber Control(None)
Mana Reserves(None)
Heath Reserves(None)
Steath(Quick)
Awareness(Int)
Combat Magic
Detection Magic
Healing Magic
Psychic Magic
Illusion Magic
Telekinesis
Summoning
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Probably once I have the first "real", that is not 1 level test, version done I'll make a new OP so I can update it myself. Again I'm having fun with this idea but don't get your hopes up too much, there is a decent to high chance I'll get fed up with the lack of comments and documentation for TOME and give up.
Well the way I see it, I'm planing to modify what they can do to fit in a roguelike. Basically they will be like mages that can "control", i.e. make friendly, one class of mobs: drones. They will also be able to use their skills to open doors and disarm traps at a distance. They might get an attack spell that only works on mobs that are designated as cyber. Also there will be objects called wireless nodes in the dungeon that will be the only allowable target for some other "spells". These will be AOEs that might put all drones to sleep, open all doors, disarm all traps or whatever.
Finally they should have decent ability to fit cybergear so should be able to fight for themselves if there are no drones for them to comandeer. I hope to be able to have their normal skills decrease while they are "controlling" drones. As suggested above the range of the hacker's abilities will be determined by his or her comlink's rating.
But no need to worry about that yet, any kind of hackers are a long way off.
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Furthermore I think it would be okay to have some nodes require a direct connection to the comlink. It could be like a seperated LAN system of a building thats not accessible from the regular internet. The security system of a building would still be wirelessly hackable but not say the ultraviolet super secure top secret data storage haven thing. And it says you can wirelessly hack things like cyberarms and other smart cyberware system.
How are you going to handle summons? Just spells that make a pet?
Also in a roguelike each casting of a spell will probably be less decisive than it would be in the PnP setting so you have to give the player the chance to cast more spells than they would in the PnP game.
So, I wouldn't mind having a system of stun damage or whatever but for me it isn't a high priority. If you want me to consider it think about how it could work in a roguelike then convince me you are right.
I think that is how they do summoning in TOME so I'd just steal that in all likelihood. Anything else that you might do with a spirit could be added as a spell. Any ideas on that?
Excuse me, I have to defrag my drive so I can repartition it and then install Ubuntu. Later.
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But one thing I do like is shadowrun's wound system (as opposed to HP). It always made more sense to me and I think it could work well in this game.
I like the docwagon idea. It makes permadeath an option without the game being too sadistic. This is kind of pie-in-the-sky, but imagine if once you're incapacitated you take control of the docwagon guy, having to fight his way in and recover your body. Different levels of docwagon contracts would give you a more powerful guy coming to your rescue.
So far notepad++ has made a good impression as far as context highlighting this lua code and what have you but ideally I'll still need a better way to search for function declarations and such as well as set up multiple pages in Vista so my desktop doesn't get far too cluttered. Hopefully I can get a useful setup that will work at least until I have to run TOME in a debugger or something.
In the meantime, keep coming up with ideas for mobs to kill and be killed by.
I think cyberhounds are a must because how else would we kill off any promising characters if not by packs of relentless enemies that are too fast to escape from and too numerous to kill. At least they won't have breath weapons. Mostly.
Also I think having cybermantic zombies lifted from my Cybertechnology source book would make for some dangerous end-game kind of mobs. These are basically street sams that have had "delta grade" implants and also some kind of magic that allows them to survive with negative essence. Should be fast, deadly and hard to kill.
Finally I think it would be cool to run into teams of UCAS special ops that are trying to scout ways for them to gain control of the arcology.
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Like someone said earlier, I think for now we should just put together a very basic level, almost like a tutorial so we know we can at least make this stuff work.
The easiest premise as far as I know is that you (the character) are an office drone working for Renraku when the arcology shuts down and goes to shit, sealing everyone inside. Your goal is to get out and wacky hijincks ensue. This way you start off with nothing, no cyberware, magic, weapons, or anything.
I'm not familiar with the Renraku shutdown module (is it a module?). Does anyone know the rough backstory?
Edited: I googled it, which I guess I should've done in the first place. Maybe a better question would be does anyone own the thing?
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Some ideas (Some of these have been mentioned before, some not).
I'm partial to the idea of actual shadow runners. Perhaps as a hardcore variant, you can decide to play as a hapless employee who is about to retired and 'too old for this shit,' who begins in the middle of the arcology and can either try and go up to get to the vtol pad, or down to the ground level.
2.) Checkpoint permadeath.
Doc Wagon is brave and true, but the Renraku arcology has, if I recall, dedicated anti-air equipment, and was known as a grinder for trained shadow runners going in covert ops style. Rather than have a doc wagon as an option (other than maybe the _very_ first levels), have achievement style checkpoint permadeath. When a shadowrunner on your account has breached x levels or accomplished y objectives, they can be considered to have established a forward point where future reinforcements could arrive. These reinforcements could come in the form of the aforementioned doc wagon contract (a very narrow range of AA has been disabled, allowing evac from this floor only), or future characters. Future characters could be made with stats fitting with someone who would have reached that point in a dry run, arguably having 'fought their way' to the checkpoint.
This gives the additional option of having remnant experience between playthroughs. If character A advances through the first 10 levels of the arcology using primarily hacking and stealth, and establishes a safe room on level 10a (actually a droid maintenance hanger, but whatever) and later on bites it, we could then create a character with some additional ability in his aforementioned skills. Do enough runs and your characters will naturally better themselves.
Obviously a hardcore mode could be included where this is not a factor.
3.) NPC Interaction.
Renraku is a full arcology. It has businesses, housing, manufacturing. This means that there will be non-hostile NPCs in many areas. Perhaps they can be used to randomly generate quests (my daughter/sister/wife/boyfried/father is trapped in the Lone Star Cells/Bank of Aztechnology/Chip Den). Additionally NPCs can then join you.
4.) Hacking
Hacking needs to be implemented. I would suggest a piece of equipment that at level 1 allows one space hacking, with one hacked at a time. At x-1 level (X being max level) it can affect up to line of sight, and at level X it can hack one square beyond line of sight. There could be a secondary level Y that indicates how many objects can be hacked at once. A hacked item, if left by simply hacking another item without first logging off the first, will cause the first to malfunction and, if appropriate, trigger an alarm. Implement a tertiary level Z that is the power of the device, then for the simple wireless commlink there are X^Y^Z possible random iterations.
5.) Character creation
Classes are antithetical to the concept of shadowrun. At character creation, give points to spend (doesn't need to be fancy) among a group of abilities that could be as narrow as physical/mental/spiritual. Pick a race (Most races will give a +1/-1, though some could get +2/-1/-1 or +2/-2, allowing up to 16 races with only those differing attributes), put a few points (3-5), and click style (your theoretical 'classes) such as street samurai (Physical), Decker (Mental), Shaman (Spiritual), Otaku (Mental/Spiritual). If we have 8 styles, 16 races, and 5 points to spend in attributes, we then have 8^16^5 or 1.7668 x 10^72 generated starting options, with minimal work.
6.) Races
Most races can have sizes. If you are medium you can use everything (albeit at a penalty if it's the wrong size), if you are small you can't use large and vice versa. Randomly generated areas can have different tags ('you're too big to fit down this security droid service shaft to the lower level/you're too small to use this turret') Items can then have 3 variants beyond anything else. In addition to the tags, we can have each race have a unique ability.
7.) Items
Okay, by items I mean primarily weapons. Everything is a weapon of some sort. A commlink is a weapon to hack with, a sword is a weapon to hack with, all that differs is the medium. Firearm implementation is a _must_. 8 axis firing only, with the option of smartlink allowing for targetted (I.E. click on the opponent) firing out of the 8 axis. Firearms could be an average of physical/mental, or if we would rather have subcategories of each of the major attributes, we could do that. Range, power, accuracy, ammo, reload time, size, all are variables, allowing us to have A^B^C^D^E^F variants of firearms alone.
8.) Styles
Styles dictate your starting equipment, and what special skill you have. Each skill is unique to that style, but can be replicated by equipment. Otaku can hack without a commlink, Street Samurai can modify cyberware without a cyberware clinic, etc. Each ability gives rudimentary level of proficiency, with more levels giving better results. Each ability would basically set the default level of the ability at 1, rather than 0 (0 would be unusable).
9.) Enemies
Enemies can run the gamut from magical beasts, to security drones, to employees, to other shadowrunners, to government ops. There is a lot of options here. Too many to count.
10.) Randomization
The arcology maps are corrupted, renraku refuses to release it's own maps citing personal interest, and all things considered the arcology is huge. Gives easy reason for it not being the same each time.
11.) Attributes
We can either stick to core attributes, or have the three attributes split into subsets of 3 again. Attack/Defense/Speed, with everything running off two of the three. Bust down a door? Atk + Def. Dodge a sword swing? Def + Spd. Shoot a gun? Atk + Def. Similar categories for Mental/Spiritual.
12.) Stun damage.
Well, if we want to make the game really tough, we have HP/MP/SP. Run out of one, subsequent attacks start going to the others. Shadowrun is entirely possible to have contingencies set up in case you flatline (adrenal packs, the aforementioned doc wagon). Enemies can hit HP (Physical), MP (Graymatter damage), or SP (Stun/Spiritual). SP -> HP -> MP. Your SP goes and you end up unconcious. Your HP goes and your body is thrashed, but hey, cyberware is shiny. Your MP goes and your graymatter is charred and you aren't coming back. Natural regen on all three.
One of the ways to get around the problem of docwagon being able to get into the arcology is to just not have permadeath. When you die, you can reload a save. I know we're trying to make a "roguelike" here but I don't think we have to feel handcuffed by that term.
As far as game mechanics go, what lowly has posted looks fine to me, but I don't think we need to get too ambitious about coding things from scratch. Probably easier to try and workaround TOME than to create a new system, at least that's my gut feeling. I could be wrong though.
attack = function(y, x, max) -- Do not fight illusory monsters local m_idx = cave(y,x).m_idx if m_idx == 0 then return end -- Get the mob local monst = monster(m_idx) -- Get the damage/type local typ = dam.MELEE local dam = player.adj_str_td[player.stat(A_STR) + 1] if player.inventory[INVEN_MAINHAND][1] and player.inventory[INVEN_MAINHAND][1].flags[FLAG_DAM] then local dams = player.inventory[INVEN_MAINHAND][1].flags[FLAG_DAM] typ = flag_max_key(dams) -- Randomize the damage dam = dam + rng(flag_get(dams, typ), flag_get2(dams, typ)) end -- Reduce damage using monster AC dam = dam - rng(monst.ac / 3, monst.ac) if dam < 0 then dam = 0 message("Your attack does nothing") end -- Ensure it is not completly frustrating if dam < 1 and monst.level <= player.lev then dam = 1 end -- Handles the combat skill dam = dam + get_skill(SKILL_COMBAT) -- DIE MONSTER DIE !! MUAHAHAHAHAHHA !! .. erm .. sorry -- Basically we just call the damage giver function on the monster spot -- telling it to do a radius 0 attack of the given type and damage -- caused by the player message("Your attack hits home for "..dam..".") project(WHO_PLAYER, 0, y, x, dam, typ, PROJECT_JUMP | PROJECT_HIDE | PROJECT_HIDE_BLAST | PROJECT_STOP | PROJECT_KILL | PROJECT_NO_REFLECT)end,
In any case I do plan to take this slow. I'll first try to change the names in this tutorial module, then make a few changes to the combat/classes or whatever, then try to add in firearms. We'll see how it goes.
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I remember this game.