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Gamasutra's Japanese RPG Primer - The Essential 20

1356

Posts

  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Man you should read the article before anything. its traditional RPG's only so Secret of Mana, Vagrant Story, Parasite Eve don't count which I agree is total bullshit epically with Valkyrie profile on the list which is so borderline its insane.

    I did read the article. There's nothing "traditional" about Dragon Quarter or Valkyrie Profile. That's my point, though. It's completely shallow and inconsistent.

    How is it "shallow and inconsistent", I think the guy did a good job of stating his opinions about the game. I just think its one of those "this guy's opinions are different from mine so his points are completely moot."


    Shallow - Six Final Fantasy titles, one of them (FFV) is hardly essential. Could replace four or five Final Fantasy's with the above mentioned games.

    Inconsistent - Lunar disqualified because of Grandia being a "sequel", yet, again, six Final Fantasy titles. There's also the "traditional" blurb yet Valkyrie Profile and Dragon Quarter are on the list.

    Sheep on
  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    tehmarken wrote: »
    Personally, I would have picked BoF 2,3 or 4 to represent the series. Afterall, BoF2 was THE game that brought anti-organized religion themes to video gaming. (Or at least, this is what I've read. There may be some other major game released before BoF2).

    Lunar 2: Eternal Blue came out at the same time as Breath of Fire 2 (in the US anyway) and did the anti-organized religion vastly better than BoF2 did. Much better game in general as well.

    And the time limit in Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter added a lot to the overall feel of the game, I thought. It gave the story a sense of urgency that I have yet to see in any other RPG. Besides, once you get to know the game well, it's not a problem at all (if you know what you're doing, you can get through the entire game without restarting once and still have plenty of time left on your meter).

    EDIT: Final Fantasy V is on the list because of the job system which was very influential. Other games before FFV let you choose the job of your characters, but FFV is the first one that I'm aware of that let you combine jobs to create your own custom uber jobs.

    RainbowDespair on
  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Not sure if I've been beaten, but why the hell is Final Fantasy Tactics not on this list?!?!

    FFT easily beats half the games on that list in terms of both quality and gameplay.

    Spawnbroker on
    Steam: Spawnbroker
  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Not sure if I've been beaten, but why the hell is Final Fantasy Tactics not on this list?!?!

    FFT easily beats half the games on that list in terms of both quality and gameplay.

    Because the article specifically said that it wasn't going to include any Strategy/RPGs or Action/RPGs.

    RainbowDespair on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Man you should read the article before anything. its traditional RPG's only so Secret of Mana, Vagrant Story, Parasite Eve don't count which I agree is total bullshit epically with Valkyrie profile on the list which is so borderline its insane.

    I did read the article. There's nothing "traditional" about Dragon Quarter or Valkyrie Profile. That's my point, though. It's completely shallow and inconsistent.

    How is it "shallow and inconsistent", I think the guy did a good job of stating his opinions about the game. I just think its one of those "this guy's opinions are different from mine so his points are completely moot."


    Shallow - Six Final Fantasy titles, one of them (FFV) is hardly essential. Could replace four or five Final Fantasy's with the above mentioned games.

    Inconsistent - Lunar disqualified because of Grandia being a "sequel", yet, again, six Final Fantasy titles. There's also the "traditional" blurb yet Valkyrie Profile and Dragon Quarter are on the list.

    Well...thing is...like 3 of the final fantasies are lumped together and one...and really I don't see how excluding one game makes the rest of the list invalid.

    As for the traditional RPG...I have to ask what is tradition then. If I remember aside of the side-scrolling aspects in VP...it could still be considered traditional. You still level up, you still have a different screen for fields and for battles, you still gather items. Really, I don't see what makes VP or DQ not viable for the list(whether or not I agree with them).

    Dragkonias on
  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Not sure if I've been beaten, but why the hell is Final Fantasy Tactics not on this list?!?!

    FFT easily beats half the games on that list in terms of both quality and gameplay.

    Because the article specifically said that it wasn't going to include any Strategy/RPGs or Action/RPGs.

    I guess us strategy players aren't cool enough for your list.

    Spawnbroker on
    Steam: Spawnbroker
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Because the article specifically said that it wasn't going to include any Strategy/RPGs or Action/RPGs.

    Except for Valkyrie Profile, cause mentioning it ups his cred.
    Well...thing is...like 3 of the final fantasies are lumped together and one...and really I don't see how excluding one game makes the rest of the list invalid.

    Excluding one Final Fantasy won't make it valid, but it would be a decent start. He could toss off FFVIII and FFXII as well.
    As for the traditional RPG...I have to ask what is tradition then. If I remember aside of the side-scrolling aspects in VP...it could still be considered traditional. You still level up, you still have a different screen for fields and for battles, you still gather items. Really, I don't see what makes VP or DQ not viable for the list(whether or not I agree with them).

    Dude, you can't tell me with a straight face that Valkyrie Profile and FFXII are traditional RPGs.

    Sheep on
  • bloodyroarxxbloodyroarxx Casa GrandeRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    Because the article specifically said that it wasn't going to include any Strategy/RPGs or Action/RPGs.

    Except for Valkyrie Profile, cause mentioning it ups his cred.

    jzz9c.jpg

    bloodyroarxx on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    Because the article specifically said that it wasn't going to include any Strategy/RPGs or Action/RPGs.

    Except for Valkyrie Profile, cause mentioning it ups his cred.
    Well...thing is...like 3 of the final fantasies are lumped together and one...and really I don't see how excluding one game makes the rest of the list invalid.

    Excluding one Final Fantasy won't make it valid, but it would be a decent start. He could toss off FFVIII and FFXII as well.
    As for the traditional RPG...I have to ask what is tradition then. If I remember aside of the side-scrolling aspects in VP...it could still be considered traditional. You still level up, you still have a different screen for fields and for battles, you still gather items. Really, I don't see what makes VP or DQ not viable for the list(whether or not I agree with them).

    Dude, you can't tell me with a straight face that Valkyrie Profile and FFXII are traditional RPGs.


    Umm...well...really...what is a traditional RPG? Because I mean I look at action RPG...and I can in no possible way understand how you get action RPG from it.

    As for FF12...I thought it played like a MMORPG without the MMO part...so I can't really commit on that one.

    Dragkonias on
  • ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    Pretty interesting article, nice to see they spend more than a paragraph justifying each entry.
    Reznik wrote: »
    Ugh, why the hell is FF8 on there? Gah... I can understand the others but... 8? Come on. Even 12 is a bit of a stretch, imo, but I guess I can understand why it's up there.

    You could read the article rather than just whining like a retard? It does a pretty good job of explaining why it's on the list.

    Pardon me for insulting your precious FF8. I read the article but I don't think a terrible cast, terrible story and broken junction system merits an entry on an Essential RPGs list. The 'why' still stands.

    8 did nothing that other FFs haven't done better. 6, 7, 10 (haven't played 9) and 12 have a better cast, better story, 10 has an infinitely better love story, and you can break the game -so bad- with the junction system that it alone cannot redeem 8.

    Reznik on
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  • yakulyakul Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    How is XII not traditional? The only thing you could really mention is the battle system, which is still turn based, but they did away with pausing the action. You don't have to use gambits, but they sure as hell help given how fast everything moves. Also you can pause the action if you really want to.

    yakul on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Umm...well...really...what is a traditional RPG?

    I know what it means to me, but my definition would even exclude Earthbound from the list as well since, while it's gameplay is fairly "traditional", the story, characters, pacing, outcome, etc, hardly qualify.

    Dragon Quest VIII is fairly traditional. FF IX as well.
    Pardon me for insulting your precious FF8. I read the article but I don't think a terrible cast, terrible story and broken junction system merits an entry on an Essential RPGs list. The 'why' still stands.

    Final Fantasy VIII was completely outdated even before it's release by Panzer Dragoon Saga. That's my excuse, anyway. Your's is pretty good, though.

    Sheep on
  • yakulyakul Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Strange that they but DQ5 on the list instead of a DQ that western gamers can actually play.

    yakul on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    That's the thing I mean...your idea of traditional seems to be different from my idea of it. That's why I don't have a problem with VP because I think when you get down to it's core that's pretty much what it is.

    Dragkonias on
  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Reznik wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    Pretty interesting article, nice to see they spend more than a paragraph justifying each entry.
    Reznik wrote: »
    Ugh, why the hell is FF8 on there? Gah... I can understand the others but... 8? Come on. Even 12 is a bit of a stretch, imo, but I guess I can understand why it's up there.

    You could read the article rather than just whining like a retard? It does a pretty good job of explaining why it's on the list.

    Pardon me for insulting your precious FF8. I read the article but I don't think a terrible cast, terrible story and broken junction system merits an entry on an Essential RPGs list. The 'why' still stands.

    8 did nothing that other FFs haven't done better. 6, 7, 10 (haven't played 9) and 12 have a better cast, better story, 10 has an infinitely better love story, and you can break the game -so bad- with the junction system that it alone cannot redeem 8.
    Okay, so, there are these new things out there, called "opinions." They're pretty cool.
    Just because Final Fantasy VIII isn't on your list of "essential JRPGS" doesn't mean it shouldn't be on any list ever ever never ever if you put it on a list you're a dummy poopy head.

    Blackjack on
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  • yakulyakul Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    FFVIII could be essential in demonstrating the excesses of companies with too much money and resources in the early PS1 era. Of course Legend of Dragoon could do that too.

    yakul on
  • UltrachristUltrachrist Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Every time I see Chrono Cross mentioned as "great" or anything beyond "average", I'm suddenly the rage filled 14 year-old-obsessed-with-chrono-trigger and terribly terribly disappointed again.

    Maybe someday I'll get over it. . . someday.

    Ultrachrist on
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Okay, so, there are these new things out there, called "opinions." They're pretty cool.

    So?

    It aggravates me to no end when threads like these pop up and only the author is allowed to have a say so on what counts and what doesn't. Fuck you*, I have the right to my opinion too, and this forum is here to express it.

    And I'm of the opinion that I could create a better, more well rounded article than this.


    *Not YOU you, as in BlackJack, but in general.
    Every time I see Chrono Cross mentioned as "great" or anything beyond "average", I'm suddenly the rage filled 14 year-old-obsessed-with-chrono-trigger and terribly terribly disappointed again.

    Maybe someday I'll get over it. . . someday.

    Seconded. Insanely disappointed. I went through alot of trouble to make sure I got that game. Skipped school, ditched girlfriend, pissed off my parents by not showing up to work...

    I completely blame Square.

    Sheep on
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    In what way was Xenogears a landmark?

    It was the first in development hell, in the middle of a multipart epic story with a crazy pseudo deep storyline that fanboys just gobble up.

    Quite possibly the most brilliant fuck up in video game history. I mean, look what it eventually lead to.

    Good music too.

    well Mitsuda is the best composer to come out of japan bar none, no arguments there.

    Are you kidding? What has he done since CC and Xenogears? I'd have to say that either Sakamoto or Sakuraba have surpassed him.

    Delzhand on
  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    Okay, so, there are these new things out there, called "opinions." They're pretty cool.
    So?

    It aggravates me to no end when threads like these pop up and only the author is allowed to have a say so on what counts and what doesn't. Fuck you*, I have the right to my opinion too, and this forum is here to express it.

    And I'm of the opinion that I could create a better, more well rounded article than this.


    *Not YOU you, as in BlackJack, but in general.
    My point was more "don't be a cock while expressing your opinion" more than "don't express your opinion."

    Blackjack on
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    3DS: 1607-3034-6970
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Are you kidding? What has he done since CC and Xenogears? I'd have to say that either Sakamoto or Sakuraba have surpassed him.

    Koji Kondo. Jesus.
    My point was more "don't be a cock while expressing your opinion" more than "don't express your opinion."

    What happened to "have a well researched and well rounded opinion"? That falls under "dickery" to me.

    Again, not you specifically, bro.

    Sheep on
  • DiscoalucardXDiscoalucardX Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I skipped over Star Ocean/Tales/Lunar not because they didn't qualify, but because I just didn't think they were awesome enough to warrant a place on the list. I mean, I loved Lunar growing up, but outside of the excellent translation, there's little going for it. A historical landmark (in the US anyway), but not good enough. As for Star Ocean/Tales - I always liked that they tried to implement an action-type system, but they've never up to snuff as far as I'm concerned.

    I still don't understand why Mario RPG if valued as highly as it is. I'd understand an argument for Paper Mario though.

    DiscoalucardX on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    I skipped over Star Ocean/Tales/Lunar not because they didn't qualify, but because I just didn't think they were awesome enough to warrant a place on the list.

    Yet... we get Final Fantasy V. How did Lunar not have anything going for it? Full animation and voice work on a 16 bit system doesn't count or something?

    Still doesn't explain why FFV is included, but not Lufia or Vagrant Story.
    I still don't understand why Mario RPG if valued as highly as it is.

    Because it was fun?

    It mixed platforming and RPGs together?

    Looked great?

    Sounded great?

    Had a fun and different battle system?

    Again, the lack of consistency is astounding.

    Sheep on
  • DiscoalucardXDiscoalucardX Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Dude man, dozens of JRPGs during the 16-bit era had cutscenes, especially CD games, so that's hardly significant. Lufia II is an excellent game, but not quite excellent enough.

    Vagrant Story is a borderliner in the same way that BoF: Dragon Quarter and Valkyrie Profile are, but I didn't include it because I don't like it at all.

    Also, the job system is the best customization system found in any RPG ever. Hence, FFV.

    But yeah, whoever suggested Mother 3? I've barely played it. :( I've been waiting till a translation comes out. On the other hand, I played through DQV in Japanese, which is much easier to understand than Mother 3. But there is a fan translation out there for those who want to play it, and I'm betting Square will release it in the States for the DS eventually.

    Re: Super Mario RPG:
    Sleep wrote: »
    Because it was fun?

    Lots of games are fun! That doesn't make it essential.
    Sleep wrote: »
    It mixed platforming and RPGs together?

    So did Xenogears...and neither did it very well, although that did have the benefit of being in 3D.
    Sleep wrote: »
    Looked great?

    Seriously? You LIKE awful mid-90s CG rendering? Well then!
    Sleep wrote: »
    Sounded great?

    I disagree. Yoko Shimomura was on one of her off-days with this one.
    Sleep wrote: »
    Had a fun and different battle system?

    If you qualify "different" as "pressing a button before you hit a bad guy", then yes, I suppose that argument would make sense! To the rest of us - the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games did it better. I didn't particularly think it was all that interesting there either, but at least those had some quality writing.

    Again, the lack of consistency is astounding.

    I'll try my hardest to agree more with your opinions in the future then!

    DiscoalucardX on
  • stranger678stranger678 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    I skipped over Star Ocean/Tales/Lunar not because they didn't qualify, but because I just didn't think they were awesome enough to warrant a place on the list.

    Yet... we get Final Fantasy V. How did Lunar not have anything going for it? Full animation and voice work on a 16 bit system doesn't count or something?

    Still doesn't explain why FFV is included, but not Lufia or Vagrant Story.
    I still don't understand why Mario RPG if valued as highly as it is.

    Because it was fun?

    It mixed platforming and RPGs together?

    Looked great?

    Sounded great?

    Had a fun and different battle system?

    Again, the lack of consistency is astounding.

    You keep trying to say that games should have been included for their quality. Quality has very little to do with this list. It is a list (Not a ranking) of games everyone should try because of how they impacted the genre itself.

    stranger678 on
    PASig.jpg
  • bloodyroarxxbloodyroarxx Casa GrandeRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Delzhand wrote: »
    In what way was Xenogears a landmark?

    It was the first in development hell, in the middle of a multipart epic story with a crazy pseudo deep storyline that fanboys just gobble up.

    Quite possibly the most brilliant fuck up in video game history. I mean, look what it eventually lead to.

    Good music too.

    well Mitsuda is the best composer to come out of japan bar none, no arguments there.

    Are you kidding? What has he done since CC and Xenogears? I'd have to say that either Sakamoto or Sakuraba have surpassed him.

    I got overzelous in that I should of said. hes one of the best.

    also this is his credits
    * Chrono Trigger Original Sound Version (1995) (with Nobuo Uematsu and Noriko Matsueda)
    * Front Mission Series: Gun Hazard Sound Track (1996) (with Nobuo Uematsu, Junya Nakano, and Masashi Hamauzu)
    * Radical Dreamers: Nusumenai Hōseki (1996)
    * Tobal No. 1 Original Soundtrack (1996) (with Masashi Hamauzu, Junya Nakano, Yasuhiro Kawami, Kenji Ito, Noriko Matsueda, Ryuji Sasai, and Yoko Shimomura)
    * Xenogears Original Soundtrack (1998)
    * Mario Party (1998)
    * Bomberman 64: The Second Attack (1999) (with Yoshitaka Hirota)
    * Chrono Cross Original Soundtrack (1999)
    * Shadow Hearts Original Soundtracks plus1 (2001)
    * an cinniùint (soundtrack to Tsugunai: Atonement) (2001)
    * Legaia Duel Saga Original Soundtrack (2002)
    * Sailing to the World (soundtrack for The Seventh Seal) (2002)
    * Xenosaga Original Soundtrack (2002)
    * Shadow Hearts II Original Soundtracks (2003)
    * Hako no Niwa (soundtrack for Graffiti Kingdom) (2004)
    * Deep Labyrinth (2006)
    * Luminous Arc Original Soundtracks (2007)
    * Armodyne (2007)
    * Super Smash Bros. Brawl (2008) (Arrangement)
    * Inazuma Eleven (2007)
    * Soma Bringer (2008)

    bloodyroarxx on
  • StriferStrifer Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Man, everybody and their mother hates FFVIII. I actually very much like the game in almost every respect, the almost part being that I don't have the CD's anymore. Damn, I would kill for a remake, with maybe a slight refinement over the original formula.

    And I guess Final Fantasy can get away with having multiple entries mentioned, since the games are mostly connected by their name alone and not much else. As stated by the author.

    Overall, I'm impressed - the list is pretty comprehensive.

    Strifer on
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    I'll try my hardest to agree more with your opinions in the future then!

    Thank you. I'm more than happy to help out anyone making "essential" lists with genres that I'm intimately familiar with.
    You keep trying to say that games should have been included for their quality. Quality has very little to do with this list. It is a list (Not a ranking) of games everyone should try because of how they impacted the genre itself.

    How often do "bad" games impact a genre? How often is a bad game essential? Will you give someone a copy of Daikatana to play simply because it shows what not to do? No, you'd tell them to stay the hell away from it, and if they want to break into the FPS genre, you'd give them something like Goldeneye, Quake 2, Half Life, etc.

    Something can't be "essential" and "crap" at the same time.

    Sheep on
  • stranger678stranger678 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    I'll try my hardest to agree more with your opinions in the future then!

    Thank you. I'm more than happy to help out anyone making "essential" lists with genres that I'm intimately familiar with.
    You keep trying to say that games should have been included for their quality. Quality has very little to do with this list. It is a list (Not a ranking) of games everyone should try because of how they impacted the genre itself.

    How often do "bad" games impact a genre? How often is a bad game essential? Will you give someone a copy of Daikatana to play simply because it shows what not to do? No, you'd tell them to stay the hell away from it, and if they want to break into the FPS genre, you'd give them something like Goldeneye, Quake 2, Half Life, etc.

    Something can't be "essential" and "crap" at the same time.

    Final Fantasy VIII is not a great game, it does however, have tons of conventions that were absolutely brilliant and should be shown and known by a wide audience.

    The idea of variable stats based on magic conservation, while at the same time using the Draw system to NOT have to conserve magic, that is some genious shit right there.

    stranger678 on
    PASig.jpg
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    The only reason I disapprove of FFVIII being on the list is because there are five other FF games on it.

    Sheep on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Man, I totally want to play Phantasy Star IV, but I don't think it's been remade for a console I have, and I don't want to run it on an emulator.

    The little bit I did play a long time ago was awesome and the "cut scenes" were very impressive.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • Glenn565Glenn565 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Septus wrote: »
    Man, I totally want to play Phantasy Star IV, but I don't think it's been remade for a console I have, and I don't want to run it on an emulator.

    The little bit I did play a long time ago was awesome and the "cut scenes" were very impressive.

    It's on the Sega Genesis Collection for the PS2.

    Glenn565 on
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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I still don't understand why Mario RPG if valued as highly as it is. I'd understand an argument for Paper Mario though.
    Mario RPG is a better game than Final Fantasy V, VII, and VIII combined, dude.

    Blackjack on
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  • stranger678stranger678 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Glenn565 wrote: »
    Septus wrote: »
    Man, I totally want to play Phantasy Star IV, but I don't think it's been remade for a console I have, and I don't want to run it on an emulator.

    The little bit I did play a long time ago was awesome and the "cut scenes" were very impressive.

    It's on the Sega Genesis Collection for the PS2.

    Also on PSP collection.
    Sleep wrote: »
    The only reason I disapprove of FFVIII being on the list is because there are five other FF games on it.

    And with the exception of his copping out and using Three FF's in one Entry (Rather then just taking a stand on which one illustrates his point best) all are on there for well explained reasons. They don't have anything in common and each one is a great example of his point.

    stranger678 on
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  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Glenn565 wrote: »
    Septus wrote: »
    Man, I totally want to play Phantasy Star IV, but I don't think it's been remade for a console I have, and I don't want to run it on an emulator.

    The little bit I did play a long time ago was awesome and the "cut scenes" were very impressive.

    It's on the Sega Genesis Collection for the PS2.

    Hmm, the wiki I read said it was still coming.

    Well, good then.

    Septus on
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    And with the exception of his copping out and using Three FF's in one Entry (Rather then just taking a stand on which one illustrates his point best) all are on there for well explained reasons.

    Are we reading the same article? He spends two to three paragraphs on FFIV tops, and his first sentence labels it cheesy and one dimensional. Then he summarizes the game and moves on to FFVI. He doesn't give me many specific reasons as to why it's "essential" other than "it did a lot of stuff really good".
    They don't have anything in common and each one is a great example of his point.

    If his point was to throw as many Final Fantasy games in to his list as possible, then yeah, I think his point was well presented.

    If anything, it sounds like this guy started playing RPGs when he got his PS2 for Christmas.

    The internet makes it pretty easy to know a game without ever playing it.

    Sheep on
  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    How often do "bad" games impact a genre? How often is a bad game essential? Will you give someone a copy of Daikatana to play simply because it shows what not to do? No, you'd tell them to stay the hell away from it, and if they want to break into the FPS genre, you'd give them something like Goldeneye, Quake 2, Half Life, etc.

    Something can't be "essential" and "crap" at the same time.

    There are no bad games on his list. Several of the games are love it/hate it sort of affairs and it would be rare to find a gamer who liked every single game on the list, but every game on the list has its share of diehard fans who would attest to it being an incredible game.

    RainbowDespair on
  • stranger678stranger678 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    And with the exception of his copping out and using Three FF's in one Entry (Rather then just taking a stand on which one illustrates his point best) all are on there for well explained reasons.

    Are we reading the same article? He spends two to three paragraphs on FFIV tops, and his first sentence labels it cheesy and one dimensional. Then he summarizes the game and moves on to FFVI. He doesn't give me many specific reasons as to why it's "essential" other than "it did a lot of stuff really good".
    They don't have anything in common and each one is a great example of his point.

    If his point was to throw as many Final Fantasy games in to his list as possible, then yeah, I think his point was well presented.

    If anything, it sounds like this guy started playing RPGs when he got his PS2 for Christmas.

    The internet makes it pretty easy to know a game without ever playing it.

    Dude, I am starting to think we didn't even read the same article. He was trying to show the idea of gameplay balanced with story, vice XII which is entirely gameplay with little story, or X, which is ALL story and very little gameplay.

    stranger678 on
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  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    And with the exception of his copping out and using Three FF's in one Entry (Rather then just taking a stand on which one illustrates his point best) all are on there for well explained reasons.

    Are we reading the same article? He spends two to three paragraphs on FFIV tops, and his first sentence labels it cheesy and one dimensional.

    He calls it cheesy and melodramatic (with character sacrifices and betrayals left and right) and you know what? It is. He also said that it was a major turning point for stories in JRPGs and that's true as well. I don't see a problem here.

    RainbowDespair on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Sleep wrote: »
    How often do "bad" games impact a genre? How often is a bad game essential? Will you give someone a copy of Daikatana to play simply because it shows what not to do? No, you'd tell them to stay the hell away from it, and if they want to break into the FPS genre, you'd give them something like Goldeneye, Quake 2, Half Life, etc.

    Something can't be "essential" and "crap" at the same time.

    There are no bad games on his list. Several of the games are love it/hate it sort of affairs and it would be rare to find a gamer who liked every single game on the list, but every game on the list has its share of diehard fans who would attest to it being an incredible game.

    It's not a question of whether or not a game is good or bad or whether one likes it.

    "Essential"

    That imparts, "You need to play these games". He doesn't really give a reason as to why we need to play Final Fantasy IV.
    He calls it cheesy and melodramatic (with character sacrifices and betrayals left and right) and you know what? It is. He also said that it was a major turning point for stories in JRPGs and that's true as well. I don't see a problem here.

    *facepalm*

    You guys have really low standards.

    Three paragraphs for FFIV out of a 21 page article. He summarizes the story in a few sentences and moves on. If that's good enough for you, that's fine.

    Sheep on
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