THE INCREDIBLE H (erc, ulk, son of, and she)

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  • Folken FanelFolken Fanel anime af When's KoFRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I don't want to derail the thread with my criticism, so the short answer is that I didn't like Planet Hulk for several reasons. I'm not trying to bash it; I only like a certain subset of Hulk stories, and neither Planet Hulk nor WWH are in it.

    So... you're saying you don't want to derail a Hulk thread by talking about which Hulks you like and which you don't?

    As a fan of Planet Hulk and a newcomer to comics in general I'm interested in hearing about story arcs you thought were better.

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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I don't want to derail the thread with my criticism, so the short answer is that I didn't like Planet Hulk for several reasons. I'm not trying to bash it; I only like a certain subset of Hulk stories, and neither Planet Hulk nor WWH are in it.

    So... you're saying you don't want to derail a Hulk thread by talking about which Hulks you like and which you don't?

    As a fan of Planet Hulk and a newcomer to comics in general I'm interested in hearing about story arcs you thought were better.

    I guess I felt like this thread isn't supposed to be about just my personal tastes. I'm actually in the thread more for Herc than Hulk.

    Generally, I dislike any/all the Hulk stories where he displays a power-level that is cosmic in nature. Examples are (a) his holding millions of tons of mountain above his head to protect the collection of heroes in Secret War (which demands the question of how the spot he was HOLDING was strong enough to support the rest of the mountain, (b) his ability to heal from being thrown in the son, (c) essentially his entire Planet Hulk persona (e.g. beating Black Bolt, though admittedly that was diminished now to beating a Black Bolt Skrull, albeit one that may have had the Power Gem), etc.

    To me, the only - and I mean only - interesting Hulk stories are ones less about his actual strength being absurd, and more about the trials and tribulations of Banner and Hulk as people. Here's an example, albeit out of canon: in one of the Marvel vs. DC crossovers, there was a Hulk v. Batman fight, where Batman beat him by boxing him on the ears, then jabbing his solar plexus to make him inhale a sedative. In the same arc, we juxtaposed Hulk and his rage with the Shaper of Worlds, and Joker's madness. It was about Hulk as a superstrong but still limited person, and his emotional issues. The grey-hulk stories focused more on this, generally.

    Planet Hulk had good moments in this regard, after diminishing Hulk to an accessible level. If they'd committed to keeping him like that, I would have liked it. By making his regrowth to cosmic power inevitable, though, it ruined the story for me.

    WWH was just a nightmare...it was a Hulk wank-a-thon where we got to see Hulk just beat on people he shouldn't be able to beat. Given how much people rage against Loeb's absurd Red-Hulk (e.g. the nonsense with Thor and Mjolnir) I find it baffling how few people complain about Hulk's power level in WWH.

    mattharvest on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Addendum: one of my favorite Hulk stories is out-of-continuity, I think it was a The End story. It basically featured an immortal Banner, unable to die because he Hulks-out at any violence.

    mattharvest on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    WWH was forgettable, and for all the impact it had it might as well have not happened at all.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Anyone with a real interest in the Hulk should read Peter David's legendary run

    Balefuego on
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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    WWH was forgettable, and for all the impact it had it might as well have not happened at all.

    It gave us Incredible Herc

    Balefuego on
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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's true!

    Robos A Go Go on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    WWH was forgettable, and for all the impact it had it might as well have not happened at all.
    Yeah, we all knew how it would end before it began, so any impact it could have had was minimal.

    Fencingsax on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    WWH was forgettable, and for all the impact it had it might as well have not happened at all.

    It gave us Incredible Herc

    This is true: I had zero interest in Hercules until the post-WWH arc (though I still loathe Amadeus), but now I'm a fan. Sacred Invasion has been my favorite part of the whole Skrull-related set of stories.

    mattharvest on
  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    WWH was forgettable, and for all the impact it had it might as well have not happened at all.

    It gave us Incredible Herc

    This is true: I had zero interest in Hercules until the post-WWH arc (though I still loathe my crush on Amadeus), but now I'm a fan. Sacred Invasion has been my favorite part of the whole Skrull-related set of stories.

    Seriously, why do you hate a really smart kid? Were you like the 2nd smartest kid in your school or something?

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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Please lets not start the Cho argument again

    Balefuego on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Yeah, that's another argument that should just stay dead.

    Fencingsax on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Please lets not start the Cho argument again

    I agree: we've argued through this plenty. He can look it up in this very thread.

    mattharvest on
  • frayfray Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I don't want to derail the thread with my criticism, so the short answer is that I didn't like Planet Hulk for several reasons. I'm not trying to bash it; I only like a certain subset of Hulk stories, and neither Planet Hulk nor WWH are in it.

    So... you're saying you don't want to derail a Hulk thread by talking about which Hulks you like and which you don't?

    As a fan of Planet Hulk and a newcomer to comics in general I'm interested in hearing about story arcs you thought were better.

    I guess I felt like this thread isn't supposed to be about just my personal tastes. I'm actually in the thread more for Herc than Hulk.

    Generally, I dislike any/all the Hulk stories where he displays a power-level that is cosmic in nature. Examples are (a) his holding millions of tons of mountain above his head to protect the collection of heroes in Secret War (which demands the question of how the spot he was HOLDING was strong enough to support the rest of the mountain, (b) his ability to heal from being thrown in the son, (c) essentially his entire Planet Hulk persona (e.g. beating Black Bolt, though admittedly that was diminished now to beating a Black Bolt Skrull, albeit one that may have had the Power Gem), etc.

    To me, the only - and I mean only - interesting Hulk stories are ones less about his actual strength being absurd, and more about the trials and tribulations of Banner and Hulk as people. Here's an example, albeit out of canon: in one of the Marvel vs. DC crossovers, there was a Hulk v. Batman fight, where Batman beat him by boxing him on the ears, then jabbing his solar plexus to make him inhale a sedative. In the same arc, we juxtaposed Hulk and his rage with the Shaper of Worlds, and Joker's madness. It was about Hulk as a superstrong but still limited person, and his emotional issues. The grey-hulk stories focused more on this, generally.

    Planet Hulk had good moments in this regard, after diminishing Hulk to an accessible level. If they'd committed to keeping him like that, I would have liked it. By making his regrowth to cosmic power inevitable, though, it ruined the story for me.

    WWH was just a nightmare...it was a Hulk wank-a-thon where we got to see Hulk just beat on people he shouldn't be able to beat. Given how much people rage against Loeb's absurd Red-Hulk (e.g. the nonsense with Thor and Mjolnir) I find it baffling how few people complain about Hulk's power level in WWH.

    Generally I'd agree that having too many uber-powerful characters who end up never being used or becoming deus ex machina devices is a bad thing, but in the Hulk's case I think it's kind of justified. It's always been part of his character that he's basically a force of nature who can't really be stopped. And in theory his power has no upper limit; the angrier he gets, the stronger he gets, so in theory as long as he keeps getting angrier he's essentially infintely powerful, at least that's how I've always understood it to work.

    fray on
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  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    WWH was just a nightmare...it was a Hulk wank-a-thon where we got to see Hulk just beat on people he shouldn't be able to beat. Given how much people rage against Loeb's absurd Red-Hulk (e.g. the nonsense with Thor and Mjolnir) I find it baffling how few people complain about Hulk's power level in WWH.

    Couple we please catagorise WWH as being different from Planet Hulk, because i'm in the same boat with it being a pretty damn mehtastic series.

    psycojester on
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  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    dang I enjoyed WWH a lot.

    not everything needs to change things forever.

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited October 2008
    but everything does need to claim that it will

    Servo on
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  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    this post right here will change GV forever

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    This post will rock every poster on the forum to the core and will cause irrevocable changes until my next post

    Faynor on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    No More Posts

    Fencingsax on
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  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    man the joke was killed in 3 posts.

    this is a new record

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I'm with The Lovely Bastard

    psycojester on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    fray wrote: »
    Generally I'd agree that having too many uber-powerful characters who end up never being used or becoming deus ex machina devices is a bad thing, but in the Hulk's case I think it's kind of justified. It's always been part of his character that he's basically a force of nature who can't really be stopped. And in theory his power has no upper limit; the angrier he gets, the stronger he gets, so in theory as long as he keeps getting angrier he's essentially infintely powerful, at least that's how I've always understood it to work.

    I only agree with you about 50/50: when Hulk was around for the first few decades, his strength was clearly limited to superhuman levels, but not cosmic. I mean, until the 80s (e.g. Secret War) we never saw him demonstrate cosmic levels of regeneration or strength. However, ever since then, he's been treated as the avatar of rage - like those glowing Emotional Spectrum creatures in Green Lantern - even if no one has explicitly explained his power that way. My complaint isn't about inconsistency, but rather taste. As I said initially, it just doesn't fit my taste.

    mattharvest on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    dang I enjoyed WWH a lot.

    not everything needs to change things forever.

    My complaint with WWH isn't that it didn't change forever, but rather that it is lame to write a series about a character where that character beats everyone else's character, despite past canon, and then there are no real repercussions from it.

    My feeling is this: you can write characters beating one another, but if it's a major upset (e.g. Hulk being able to beat all the X-Men, or Black Bolt, or whatever) then you need to acknowledge that major change instead of just wiping the slate clean with a magic satellite. If you just want to have a fun story without major implications, that's totally cool, but don't write it as if that story is going to have major implications.

    mattharvest on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I just thought the Sentry was massively mischaracterised, personally.

    Wildcat on
  • Inter_dInter_d Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    dang I enjoyed WWH a lot.

    not everything needs to change things forever.

    My complaint with WWH isn't that it didn't change forever, but rather that it is lame to write a series about a character where that character beats everyone else's character, despite past canon, and then there are no real repercussions from it.

    My feeling is this: you can write characters beating one another, but if it's a major upset (e.g. Hulk being able to beat all the X-Men, or Black Bolt, or whatever) then you need to acknowledge that major change instead of just wiping the slate clean with a magic satellite. If you just want to have a fun story without major implications, that's totally cool, but don't write it as if that story is going to have major implications.

    I agree, frankly i wanted Banner to die at the end of WWH. It makes the whole thing a bit more tragic and it ties up the whole Hulk cosmic powerhouse from the Marvel U until his son finds his way to earth.

    i was just mad that frankly they trumped the whole WWH arc to be this HUGE world changing event but there were no long term implications and everything returned to the status quo, hell new york was rebuilt so quick it was ridiculous. Incredible Herc is still extremely badass, though...that was a nice result of the whole mess.

    Inter_d on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I dont remember them ever trumping up WWH to be a world changing event.

    In fact I remember specifically that they said many times it was going to be a much smaller event in comparison to Civil War

    Balefuego on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    I dont remember them ever trumping up WWH to be a world changing event.

    In fact I remember specifically that they said many times it was going to be a much smaller event in comparison to Civil War

    I can't remember much about the advertising, so I don't disagree with you. That said, when I see "world war" in the title of the event, I think people can be forgiven for thinking it's going to be a big deal (see. e.g. WWIII in D.C.).

    I suppose part of the oddness of WWH is that, if you think back, most of the 'events' in either company for the last 5 years or more have had major post-event impacts (at least as far as I recall). WWH was sort of unexpectedly ineffectual.

    mattharvest on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I remember someone saying that WWH would be the next Civil War, but I can't remember who.

    My largest complaint is that there really was no way to write that story with Hulk as a good guy, and Hulk isn't evil, so they had to write him as essentially losing any intellect he had gained during Planet Hulk.

    Fencingsax on
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  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Bale's right. WWH was always supposed to be a much smaller event.

    Crimsondude on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    It wasn't that it didn't change the world so much as it was that it didn't even change the Hulk.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    ...it was called World War Hulk and didn't leave the Tristate Area.

    What more needs to be said?

    Shadowen on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That did piss me off. I expected Hulk to gain control of the planet and stage an actual large-scale invasion of Earth. I suppose the motivation might not have been there but I dunno they could have thought of something.

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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    World War Hulk is a catchier title than Battle of New York Hulk

    Balefuego on
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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Hulk Alone 2: Lost in New York

    Robos A Go Go on
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I actually think we discussed the title thing. Maybe in the last thread.

    But hell, why not again? It's the sticking point for me. Christ, at least other big event names are halfway accurate. Secret Invasion? Been going on for years and no one knew. Civil War? American superheroes split down the middle and fight it out over leglislation and ethics. Planet Hulk? There's a planet Hulk lands on that's very well-suited to him and he ends up ruling it. House of M? Alternate reality where mutants are in charge and Magneto rules.

    World War Hulk? The Hulk beats up the New-York based superheroes and causes a few hundred million in property damage. Uh, y'know what that used to be called in the Marvel Universe?

    Tuesday.

    Shadowen on
  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Just read that Hulk #6 was the second best selling comic of September. I know some(or most) people will bemoan that but I still think it's an entertaining book. And the next arc we get Frank Cho drawing She-Hulk.

    wirehead26 on
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  • FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Just read that Hulk #6 was the second best selling comic of September. I know some(or most) people will bemoan that but I still think it's an entertaining book. And the next arc we get Frank Cho drawing She-Hulk.

    If the fires of my hatred could make that book sell less, it would be canceled.

    Faynor on
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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Faynor wrote: »
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Just read that Hulk #6 was the second best selling comic of September. I know some(or most) people will bemoan that but I still think it's an entertaining book. And the next arc we get Frank Cho drawing She-Hulk.

    If the fires of my hatred could make that book sell less, it would be canceled.

    Or it would be caught sleeping with JG Jones' wife.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Can I say that I thought Hulk #7 was actually intentionally entertaining this week?

    wirehead26 on
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