If there is any doubt as to whether Rohrshach's "insane conspiracy theories and accusations" could hold weight in the post alien attack world, let us look to our own real world situations.
Terrorists fly planes into buildings in September 2001.
Later, there are conspiracy theories that say 9/11/01 was planned, executed, and covered up by our own people.
This is real world shit. Why couldn't the ideas of one crackpot vigilante be believable in Alan Moore's world ? Dr.Manhattan is a cocksucker for killing him. But he had to die once everyone picked sides against him.
The Dark Hillbilly on
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
If there is any doubt as to whether Rohrshach's "insane conspiracy theories and accusations" could hold weight in the post alien attack world, let us look to our own real world situations.
Terrorists fly planes into buildings in September 2001.
Later, there are conspiracy theories that say 9/11/01 was planned, executed, and covered up by our own people.
This is real world shit. Why couldn't the ideas of one crackpot vigilante be believable in Alan Moore's world ? Dr.Manhattan is a cocksucker for killing him. But he had to die once everyone picked sides against him.
To be fair, Loose Change gets about as much respect (among intelligent people) as a slightly red-tinged fart on the wind.
Yeah, they're pretty horrible. Who would possibly fucking believe that we killed thousands of our own people ? Or that someone would set up the murder of millions of our people and blame it on an alien species that was created by special effects artists?
And yet, there's douchebags who would like nothing better than to believe our government is a bunch of evil war mongering bastards. The man in the ink blotted mask would be believed by a small portion of the population, regardless.
This could be bad. Fox is suing Warner Brothers for the rights to distribute the Watchmen film, and it gets worse since the judge denied WB's Motion to Dismiss the case.
The man in the ink blotted mask would be believed by a small portion of the population, regardless.
To be fair, there are people who will come to that conclusion regardless.
Of course, some of these people also suspect the CIA is secretly wiretapping their cornflakes and causing the sun to rise and set just out of sync with how they feel it should in order to drive them crazy.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
the difference between this and other conspiracy theories is that rorschach would actually be right and him or other conspiracy theorists could feasibly find evidence to support their claims, no matter how hard ozy tried to cover his tracks.
also I have no idea why ozy would leave nite owl and spectre alive. I mean while manhattan is there, sure. after that? everything about his character says he'd kill them.
This could be bad. Fox is suing Warner Brothers for the rights to distribute the Watchmen film, and it gets worse since the judge denied WB's Motion to Dismiss the case.
the difference between this and other conspiracy theories is that rorschach would actually be right and him or other conspiracy theorists could feasibly find evidence to support their claims, no matter how hard ozy tried to cover his tracks.
also I have no idea why ozy would leave nite owl and spectre alive. I mean while manhattan is there, sure. after that? everything about his character says he'd kill them.
It's sort of implied that the two of them are on the run. While that might partially be because of their prison break, it could potentially also be because of not trusting Adrien.
jkylefulton on
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HerrCronIt that wickedly supports taxationRegistered Userregular
Wasn't it confirmed that the Us Government was in some way responsible for how 9/11 turned out?
I *think* (and i may be wrong here) the official report laid some of the blame on the various intelligence services for not seeing it coming and basically not cooperating with eachother when they should have.
But oversight between various agencies is a far cry from inventing a terrorist plot to fly planes into buildings and carrying it out so as further your own nefarious schemes.
Comparisons between Loose Change and Rorschach blowing the whistle on Veidt's plan would seem to suggest that killing him was wholly unnecessary, since the 911 conspiracy theories have had zero actual effect on anything in the real world. Although I guess Rorschach could point to things like Veidt's secret arctic fortress as pretty concrete proof, whereas Loose Change and most of its ilk are clearly batshit loco.
fray on
"I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
If we assume that Rorschach is the darkest parts of Batman less the proscription against killing, then presumably there are people who approve of his work and methods. Those people would likely believe him, some maybe in a high enough position of power to actually investigate the allegations.
If we assume that Rorschach is the darkest parts of Batman less the proscription against killing, then presumably there are people who approve of his work and methods. Those people would likely believe him, some maybe in a high enough position of power to actually investigate the allegations.
Actually this makes a fair bit of sense to me, i'm sure there would still be people who'd be deeply suspicious of either side on either side, having a former superhero (albeit one with questionable methods) going around and saying "HEY GUYS, ITS ALL VEIDT! HE CONNED YOU" would probably make them at least question what happened maybe not go so far as to fully believe Rorschachs story but still to start investigating.
And that in itself could probably undo everything.
As far as the trailer the only place where how fat/not fat Nite Owl is can be seen is when he drops in the frame (I think he's coming from Archie) but I can't think where that might be in the book
As far as the trailer the only place where how fat/not fat Nite Owl is can be seen is when he drops in the frame (I think he's coming from Archie) but I can't think where that might be in the book
Looks to me like it's during the riot scene with The Comedian, after the rioters started retreating. That would explain why he's in better shape.
Man, I'm rereading Watchmen for like the third time, and I just actually caught how normal Rorscharch is in the beginning. I mean, when they are all meeting with Cap Metropolis, you can tell he's sane enough, other characters mention it as well. For some reason, I didn't remember/caught what pushed him over the edge.
Man, I'm rereading Watchmen for like the third time, and I just actually caught how normal Rorscharch is in the beginning. I mean, when they are all meeting with Cap Metropolis, you can tell he's sane enough, other characters mention it as well. For some reason, I didn't remember/caught what pushed him over the edge.
From what I understood when reading it, there was one particular case that pushed him over the edge. The one with the botched kidnapping/ransom that resulted in a little girl's body parts being fed to a couple of guard dogs. That was the first one he killed and that's the one he remembers in his psychiatrist's visit.
I finally bought and read this book and I disagree with Tube.
Rorschach has to die and Dr. Manhattan isn't an asshole for killing him. He's doing him a favor. Rorschach can't live in the world Veidt has created, and the world doesn't want/need men like Rorschach running around killing people and eating sugar cubes. It won't tolerate the kind of moral absolutes he clings too anymore.
Rorschach basically has the mind of a child, he only sees black and white. This is also shown in his lack of understanding/hatred of female sexuality. He doesn't deal with the moral ambiguities adults face every day. He certainly can't live in a world, even if it's a better one than he's always known, based on a lie.
This all works beautifully with the book's subtext about comics as well. The old heroes with staunch good vs. evil stories are dead. The audience has grown up and mostly moved on so they need to grow up as well to stay relevant.
It's also a testament to how good of a writer Alan Moore is that Veidt and Manhattan are basically both god, and yet neither is painted as necessarily all good or all bad.
It's worth noting that Manhattan isn't an asshole, period, because we simply can't talk about him using language that applies to normal, linear people. His consciousness is spread out across time, and his personality by definition isn't subject to the same descriptions as we are.
It's not clear to me at all that he should be discussed in moral terms, any more than a turtle or thunderstorm should be. He is, literally, transcendent.
I disagree with him, Dr. Manhattan, being "above" moral implications. To say that he doesn't think like we do and for that reason is immune to our judgements of morality is insane. That logic would leave sociopaths free to do whatever they want, simply because they don't see morality the same as we do. Which, if you think about old Ink Blot's approach to crime, is kind of incredible. A man who does what he sees necessary with complete disregard for the moral objections of others, Rorschach, is killed by a man who does whatever he sees necessary with complete disregard for the moral objections of others, Dr. Manhattan. It's beautiful.
But still, I have morals so I may judge freely..... Dr. Manhattan is an asshole.
Does anyone know if they might ever reprint the absolute edition of this? A friend bought my tpb from me because it got kind of messed up while he borrowed it, and I was thinking of upgrading, but I don't really want to track down a good price on a used copy.
edit:: Oh shit, there is, it's supposed to come out November 12th. SWEETNESS.
To me, both Rorshach and Manhattan are characters who are not quite human any longer. Rorshach because his mind has been broken, and therefore sees the world only 2 ways- black and white. Doc because he has trancended mortality, and sees the universe in it's infinite complexity.
Because their own moral systems are irrevicably broken, there's only one solution to each of them, and in the end, they both know it.
But still, I have morals so I may judge freely..... Dr. Manhattan is an asshole.
How is it any less "moral" to let Rorschach live knowing he could bring about an end to peace on earth?
Doc's just doing what needs to be done. In the end it's Rorschach who tells him to do it anyway. In almost every situation Manhattan does what's asked of him.
Drool on
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Muse Among MenSuburban Bunny Princess?Its time for a new shtick Registered Userregular
I finally bought and read this book and I disagree with Tube.
Rorschach has to die and Dr. Manhattan isn't an asshole for killing him. He's doing him a favor. Rorschach can't live in the world Veidt has created, and the world doesn't want/need men like Rorschach running around killing people and eating sugar cubes. It won't tolerate the kind of moral absolutes he clings too anymore.
Rorschach basically has the mind of a child, he only sees black and white. This is also shown in his lack of understanding/hatred of female sexuality. He doesn't deal with the moral ambiguities adults face every day. He certainly can't live in a world, even if it's a better one than he's always known, based on a lie.
This all works beautifully with the book's subtext about comics as well. The old heroes with staunch good vs. evil stories are dead. The audience has grown up and mostly moved on so they need to grow up as well to stay relevant.
It's also a testament to how good of a writer Alan Moore is that Veidt and Manhattan are basically both god, and yet neither is painted as necessarily all good or all bad.
Rorschach was pretty messed up in terms of sexuality of any kind. He sees the Hiroshima Lovers and immediately assumes that they are engaged in some sort of foreplay.
see, i don't know if manhattan can be held accountable for his actions. look at the issue where we see things from his point of view. he seems like basically an observer in his own body, at literally every moment his body is/was/will be. he can speak of the future as we speak of the past. its already happened for him. i don't know if he sees multiple futures (it doesn't appear so based on his issue) but it seems like there is only one set of actions he can take.
its kind of tragic that he can literally do anything and is stuck with one set of actions that he is always doing (im assuming he exeriences everything in what would seem like an instant to us, because a mind trying to differentiate the various moments he's acting in when experiencing them simultaneously is kinda hard for me to wrap my head around).
edit: what i was trying to say was that since he knows what actions he will be taking at any moment im not sure he has the free will to choose to do otherwise.
I disagree with him, Dr. Manhattan, being "above" moral implications. To say that he doesn't think like we do and for that reason is immune to our judgements of morality is insane. That logic would leave sociopaths free to do whatever they want, simply because they don't see morality the same as we do. Which, if you think about old Ink Blot's approach to crime, is kind of incredible. A man who does what he sees necessary with complete disregard for the moral objections of others, Rorschach, is killed by a man who does whatever he sees necessary with complete disregard for the moral objections of others, Dr. Manhattan. It's beautiful.
But still, I have morals so I may judge freely..... Dr. Manhattan is an asshole.
You misunderstand my point: it's not about him thinking differently, it's about him being fundamentally greater and broader than we. His connection with time is exceedingly different, and calls into question issues of determinism and free will. Speaking of him "choosing" something is complicated, given that he does move in a cause-and-effect timeline the same way we do.
Dr. Manhattan technically isn't as omnipotent or as far-seeing as he believes he is. That little Tachyon field that Veidt built caused him to become fuzzy in his perceptions. I assumed he was diminished to the point of not being able to completely predict the future, or experience the future if you see it that way, and he was at least somewhat closer to a normal person. He was still somewhat capable of simultaneously experiencing chronological events, given his "I'm explaining it 90 seconds ago", but he wasn't entirely up to speed. He didn't just KNOW to go to Veidt's fortress, he had to find the source of the Tachyon fields. He never disabled those disruptions, and I think he CHOSE to kill Rorschach.
Posts
Terrorists fly planes into buildings in September 2001.
Later, there are conspiracy theories that say 9/11/01 was planned, executed, and covered up by our own people.
This is real world shit. Why couldn't the ideas of one crackpot vigilante be believable in Alan Moore's world ? Dr.Manhattan is a cocksucker for killing him. But he had to die once everyone picked sides against him.
To be fair, Loose Change gets about as much respect (among intelligent people) as a slightly red-tinged fart on the wind.
EDIT: Well, it's a conspiracy theory film.
And yet, there's douchebags who would like nothing better than to believe our government is a bunch of evil war mongering bastards. The man in the ink blotted mask would be believed by a small portion of the population, regardless.
As long as it comes out, I really don't give a flying shit
Yeah, apparently my bad. What I meant to say must've been:
So, I'm really disappointed with the lack of Ozy having a hairstyle that is longer in the back than it is in the front.
He's not Billy Ray Cyrusin' it, but my point was that Oxy had a hairstyle in the comics that was popular in the 80s, and is not now.
Also, the new Ozy looks remarkable like McCully Culkin.
However, it's one of those things where I've faith in the director, so it doesn't really bother me much.
To be fair, there are people who will come to that conclusion regardless.
Of course, some of these people also suspect the CIA is secretly wiretapping their cornflakes and causing the sun to rise and set just out of sync with how they feel it should in order to drive them crazy.
also I have no idea why ozy would leave nite owl and spectre alive. I mean while manhattan is there, sure. after that? everything about his character says he'd kill them.
Eh. I don't really see this as a big problem, since it's just the distribution rights. Won't affect the actual film.
Maybe he actually did have a heart after all.
Or maybe he totally intended to kill them later.
I *think* (and i may be wrong here) the official report laid some of the blame on the various intelligence services for not seeing it coming and basically not cooperating with eachother when they should have.
But oversight between various agencies is a far cry from inventing a terrorist plot to fly planes into buildings and carrying it out so as further your own nefarious schemes.
Or a unleashing a psychic alien on new york.
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
Actually this makes a fair bit of sense to me, i'm sure there would still be people who'd be deeply suspicious of either side on either side, having a former superhero (albeit one with questionable methods) going around and saying "HEY GUYS, ITS ALL VEIDT! HE CONNED YOU" would probably make them at least question what happened maybe not go so far as to fully believe Rorschachs story but still to start investigating.
And that in itself could probably undo everything.
fuck, i'd forgotten about that.
You will.
From what I understood when reading it, there was one particular case that pushed him over the edge. The one with the botched kidnapping/ransom that resulted in a little girl's body parts being fed to a couple of guard dogs. That was the first one he killed and that's the one he remembers in his psychiatrist's visit.
He doesn't look too skinny. I mean, if you can at least squeeze into your tight leather suit, wouldn't that hold in the fat?
Mike's Hard Lemonade: When the world has gone soft, Rorschach will kill you.
Rorschach has to die and Dr. Manhattan isn't an asshole for killing him. He's doing him a favor. Rorschach can't live in the world Veidt has created, and the world doesn't want/need men like Rorschach running around killing people and eating sugar cubes. It won't tolerate the kind of moral absolutes he clings too anymore.
Rorschach basically has the mind of a child, he only sees black and white. This is also shown in his lack of understanding/hatred of female sexuality. He doesn't deal with the moral ambiguities adults face every day. He certainly can't live in a world, even if it's a better one than he's always known, based on a lie.
This all works beautifully with the book's subtext about comics as well. The old heroes with staunch good vs. evil stories are dead. The audience has grown up and mostly moved on so they need to grow up as well to stay relevant.
It's also a testament to how good of a writer Alan Moore is that Veidt and Manhattan are basically both god, and yet neither is painted as necessarily all good or all bad.
It's not clear to me at all that he should be discussed in moral terms, any more than a turtle or thunderstorm should be. He is, literally, transcendent.
But still, I have morals so I may judge freely..... Dr. Manhattan is an asshole.
edit:: Oh shit, there is, it's supposed to come out November 12th. SWEETNESS.
Because their own moral systems are irrevicably broken, there's only one solution to each of them, and in the end, they both know it.
How is it any less "moral" to let Rorschach live knowing he could bring about an end to peace on earth?
Doc's just doing what needs to be done. In the end it's Rorschach who tells him to do it anyway. In almost every situation Manhattan does what's asked of him.
Rorschach was pretty messed up in terms of sexuality of any kind. He sees the Hiroshima Lovers and immediately assumes that they are engaged in some sort of foreplay.
its kind of tragic that he can literally do anything and is stuck with one set of actions that he is always doing (im assuming he exeriences everything in what would seem like an instant to us, because a mind trying to differentiate the various moments he's acting in when experiencing them simultaneously is kinda hard for me to wrap my head around).
edit: what i was trying to say was that since he knows what actions he will be taking at any moment im not sure he has the free will to choose to do otherwise.
You misunderstand my point: it's not about him thinking differently, it's about him being fundamentally greater and broader than we. His connection with time is exceedingly different, and calls into question issues of determinism and free will. Speaking of him "choosing" something is complicated, given that he does move in a cause-and-effect timeline the same way we do.