As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

(SPOILERS) Watchmen is the greatest book ever written

1101113151619

Posts

  • The Dark HillbillyThe Dark Hillbilly Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    If there is any doubt as to whether Rohrshach's "insane conspiracy theories and accusations" could hold weight in the post alien attack world, let us look to our own real world situations.

    Terrorists fly planes into buildings in September 2001.

    Later, there are conspiracy theories that say 9/11/01 was planned, executed, and covered up by our own people.

    This is real world shit. Why couldn't the ideas of one crackpot vigilante be believable in Alan Moore's world ? Dr.Manhattan is a cocksucker for killing him. But he had to die once everyone picked sides against him.

    The Dark Hillbilly on
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    If there is any doubt as to whether Rohrshach's "insane conspiracy theories and accusations" could hold weight in the post alien attack world, let us look to our own real world situations.

    Terrorists fly planes into buildings in September 2001.

    Later, there are conspiracy theories that say 9/11/01 was planned, executed, and covered up by our own people.

    This is real world shit. Why couldn't the ideas of one crackpot vigilante be believable in Alan Moore's world ? Dr.Manhattan is a cocksucker for killing him. But he had to die once everyone picked sides against him.

    To be fair, Loose Change gets about as much respect (among intelligent people) as a slightly red-tinged fart on the wind.

    KalTorak on
  • The Dark HillbillyThe Dark Hillbilly Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Would Loose Change be the conspiracy theorists behind the "9/11 is an inside job" ?

    The Dark Hillbilly on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Yes.

    EDIT: Well, it's a conspiracy theory film.

    august on
  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    edited August 2008
    9/11 conspiracy theories piss me off more than just about anything in the world

    DJ Eebs on
  • The Dark HillbillyThe Dark Hillbilly Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Yeah, they're pretty horrible. Who would possibly fucking believe that we killed thousands of our own people ? Or that someone would set up the murder of millions of our people and blame it on an alien species that was created by special effects artists?

    And yet, there's douchebags who would like nothing better than to believe our government is a bunch of evil war mongering bastards. The man in the ink blotted mask would be believed by a small portion of the population, regardless.

    The Dark Hillbilly on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Nikolai! wrote: »
    This could be bad. Fox is suing Warner Brothers for the rights to distribute the Watchmen film, and it gets worse since the judge denied WB's Motion to Dismiss the case.

    http://www.firstshowing.net/2008/08/18/warner-bros-watchmen-in-serious-legal-trouble/

    As long as it comes out, I really don't give a flying shit

    Me Too! on
  • ManonvonSuperockManonvonSuperock Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    ozy doesn't even have a minimullet. he just has longer hair.

    Yeah, apparently my bad. What I meant to say must've been:

    So, I'm really disappointed with the lack of Ozy having a hairstyle that is longer in the back than it is in the front.

    He's not Billy Ray Cyrusin' it, but my point was that Oxy had a hairstyle in the comics that was popular in the 80s, and is not now.

    Also, the new Ozy looks remarkable like McCully Culkin.

    However, it's one of those things where I've faith in the director, so it doesn't really bother me much.

    ManonvonSuperock on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The man in the ink blotted mask would be believed by a small portion of the population, regardless.

    To be fair, there are people who will come to that conclusion regardless.

    Of course, some of these people also suspect the CIA is secretly wiretapping their cornflakes and causing the sun to rise and set just out of sync with how they feel it should in order to drive them crazy.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • SaphSaph Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Wasn't it confirmed that the Us Government was in some way responsible for how 9/11 turned out?

    Saph on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Please try to be more vague.

    august on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited August 2008
    the difference between this and other conspiracy theories is that rorschach would actually be right and him or other conspiracy theorists could feasibly find evidence to support their claims, no matter how hard ozy tried to cover his tracks.

    also I have no idea why ozy would leave nite owl and spectre alive. I mean while manhattan is there, sure. after that? everything about his character says he'd kill them.

    Tube on
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Nikolai! wrote: »
    This could be bad. Fox is suing Warner Brothers for the rights to distribute the Watchmen film, and it gets worse since the judge denied WB's Motion to Dismiss the case.

    http://www.firstshowing.net/2008/08/18/warner-bros-watchmen-in-serious-legal-trouble/

    Eh. I don't really see this as a big problem, since it's just the distribution rights. Won't affect the actual film.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    the difference between this and other conspiracy theories is that rorschach would actually be right and him or other conspiracy theorists could feasibly find evidence to support their claims, no matter how hard ozy tried to cover his tracks.

    also I have no idea why ozy would leave nite owl and spectre alive. I mean while manhattan is there, sure. after that? everything about his character says he'd kill them.

    Maybe he actually did have a heart after all.

    Or maybe he totally intended to kill them later.

    Quoth on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    It's sort of implied that the two of them are on the run. While that might partially be because of their prison break, it could potentially also be because of not trusting Adrien.

    jkylefulton on
    tOkYVT2.jpg
  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Saph wrote: »
    Wasn't it confirmed that the Us Government was in some way responsible for how 9/11 turned out?

    I *think* (and i may be wrong here) the official report laid some of the blame on the various intelligence services for not seeing it coming and basically not cooperating with eachother when they should have.

    But oversight between various agencies is a far cry from inventing a terrorist plot to fly planes into buildings and carrying it out so as further your own nefarious schemes.

    Or a unleashing a psychic alien on new york.

    HerrCron on
    sig.gif
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Honestly the biggest problem I have with 9/11 conspiracys is the level of competence it attributes to the government.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • frayfray Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Comparisons between Loose Change and Rorschach blowing the whistle on Veidt's plan would seem to suggest that killing him was wholly unnecessary, since the 911 conspiracy theories have had zero actual effect on anything in the real world. Although I guess Rorschach could point to things like Veidt's secret arctic fortress as pretty concrete proof, whereas Loose Change and most of its ilk are clearly batshit loco.

    fray on
    "I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
    "And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    If we assume that Rorschach is the darkest parts of Batman less the proscription against killing, then presumably there are people who approve of his work and methods. Those people would likely believe him, some maybe in a high enough position of power to actually investigate the allegations.

    Quoth on
  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Quoth wrote: »
    If we assume that Rorschach is the darkest parts of Batman less the proscription against killing, then presumably there are people who approve of his work and methods. Those people would likely believe him, some maybe in a high enough position of power to actually investigate the allegations.


    Actually this makes a fair bit of sense to me, i'm sure there would still be people who'd be deeply suspicious of either side on either side, having a former superhero (albeit one with questionable methods) going around and saying "HEY GUYS, ITS ALL VEIDT! HE CONNED YOU" would probably make them at least question what happened maybe not go so far as to fully believe Rorschachs story but still to start investigating.
    And that in itself could probably undo everything.

    HerrCron on
    sig.gif
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    And indeed still might, if his journal is ever researched.

    Wildcat on
  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Wildcat wrote: »
    And indeed still might, if his journal is ever researched.

    fuck, i'd forgotten about that.

    HerrCron on
    sig.gif
  • wyrlsswyrlss Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    As far as the trailer the only place where how fat/not fat Nite Owl is can be seen is when he drops in the frame (I think he's coming from Archie) but I can't think where that might be in the book

    wyrlss on
    K9Violator.png
  • GR_ZombieGR_Zombie Krillin It Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    wyrlss wrote: »
    As far as the trailer the only place where how fat/not fat Nite Owl is can be seen is when he drops in the frame (I think he's coming from Archie) but I can't think where that might be in the book
    Looks to me like it's during the riot scene with The Comedian, after the rioters started retreating. That would explain why he's in better shape.

    GR_Zombie on
    04xkcuvaav19.png
  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Man, I'm rereading Watchmen for like the third time, and I just actually caught how normal Rorscharch is in the beginning. I mean, when they are all meeting with Cap Metropolis, you can tell he's sane enough, other characters mention it as well. For some reason, I didn't remember/caught what pushed him over the edge.

    noir_blood on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Yeah well.

    You will.

    august on
  • The Dark HillbillyThe Dark Hillbilly Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    noir_blood wrote: »
    Man, I'm rereading Watchmen for like the third time, and I just actually caught how normal Rorscharch is in the beginning. I mean, when they are all meeting with Cap Metropolis, you can tell he's sane enough, other characters mention it as well. For some reason, I didn't remember/caught what pushed him over the edge.

    From what I understood when reading it, there was one particular case that pushed him over the edge. The one with the botched kidnapping/ransom that resulted in a little girl's body parts being fed to a couple of guard dogs. That was the first one he killed and that's the one he remembers in his psychiatrist's visit.

    The Dark Hillbilly on
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    its when everyone else got soft.

    PantheraOnca on
  • wyrlsswyrlss Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    http://watchmencomicmovie.com/posters/2008-nite-owl-poster-big.jpg

    He doesn't look too skinny. I mean, if you can at least squeeze into your tight leather suit, wouldn't that hold in the fat?

    wyrlss on
    K9Violator.png
  • Mai-KeroMai-Kero Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    its when everyone else got soft.

    Mike's Hard Lemonade: When the world has gone soft, Rorschach will kill you.

    Mai-Kero on
  • DroolDrool Science! AustinRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I finally bought and read this book and I disagree with Tube.

    Rorschach has to die and Dr. Manhattan isn't an asshole for killing him. He's doing him a favor. Rorschach can't live in the world Veidt has created, and the world doesn't want/need men like Rorschach running around killing people and eating sugar cubes. It won't tolerate the kind of moral absolutes he clings too anymore.

    Rorschach basically has the mind of a child, he only sees black and white. This is also shown in his lack of understanding/hatred of female sexuality. He doesn't deal with the moral ambiguities adults face every day. He certainly can't live in a world, even if it's a better one than he's always known, based on a lie.

    This all works beautifully with the book's subtext about comics as well. The old heroes with staunch good vs. evil stories are dead. The audience has grown up and mostly moved on so they need to grow up as well to stay relevant.

    It's also a testament to how good of a writer Alan Moore is that Veidt and Manhattan are basically both god, and yet neither is painted as necessarily all good or all bad.

    Drool on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    It's worth noting that Manhattan isn't an asshole, period, because we simply can't talk about him using language that applies to normal, linear people. His consciousness is spread out across time, and his personality by definition isn't subject to the same descriptions as we are.

    It's not clear to me at all that he should be discussed in moral terms, any more than a turtle or thunderstorm should be. He is, literally, transcendent.

    mattharvest on
  • The Dark HillbillyThe Dark Hillbilly Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I disagree with him, Dr. Manhattan, being "above" moral implications. To say that he doesn't think like we do and for that reason is immune to our judgements of morality is insane. That logic would leave sociopaths free to do whatever they want, simply because they don't see morality the same as we do. Which, if you think about old Ink Blot's approach to crime, is kind of incredible. A man who does what he sees necessary with complete disregard for the moral objections of others, Rorschach, is killed by a man who does whatever he sees necessary with complete disregard for the moral objections of others, Dr. Manhattan. It's beautiful.


    But still, I have morals so I may judge freely..... Dr. Manhattan is an asshole.

    The Dark Hillbilly on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Does anyone know if they might ever reprint the absolute edition of this? A friend bought my tpb from me because it got kind of messed up while he borrowed it, and I was thinking of upgrading, but I don't really want to track down a good price on a used copy.

    edit:: Oh shit, there is, it's supposed to come out November 12th. SWEETNESS.

    SageinaRage on
    sig.gif
  • TachTach Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    To me, both Rorshach and Manhattan are characters who are not quite human any longer. Rorshach because his mind has been broken, and therefore sees the world only 2 ways- black and white. Doc because he has trancended mortality, and sees the universe in it's infinite complexity.

    Because their own moral systems are irrevicably broken, there's only one solution to each of them, and in the end, they both know it.

    Tach on
  • DroolDrool Science! AustinRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    But still, I have morals so I may judge freely..... Dr. Manhattan is an asshole.

    How is it any less "moral" to let Rorschach live knowing he could bring about an end to peace on earth?

    Doc's just doing what needs to be done. In the end it's Rorschach who tells him to do it anyway. In almost every situation Manhattan does what's asked of him.

    Drool on
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Drool wrote: »
    I finally bought and read this book and I disagree with Tube.

    Rorschach has to die and Dr. Manhattan isn't an asshole for killing him. He's doing him a favor. Rorschach can't live in the world Veidt has created, and the world doesn't want/need men like Rorschach running around killing people and eating sugar cubes. It won't tolerate the kind of moral absolutes he clings too anymore.

    Rorschach basically has the mind of a child, he only sees black and white. This is also shown in his lack of understanding/hatred of female sexuality. He doesn't deal with the moral ambiguities adults face every day. He certainly can't live in a world, even if it's a better one than he's always known, based on a lie.

    This all works beautifully with the book's subtext about comics as well. The old heroes with staunch good vs. evil stories are dead. The audience has grown up and mostly moved on so they need to grow up as well to stay relevant.

    It's also a testament to how good of a writer Alan Moore is that Veidt and Manhattan are basically both god, and yet neither is painted as necessarily all good or all bad.

    Rorschach was pretty messed up in terms of sexuality of any kind. He sees the Hiroshima Lovers and immediately assumes that they are engaged in some sort of foreplay.

    Muse Among Men on
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    see, i don't know if manhattan can be held accountable for his actions. look at the issue where we see things from his point of view. he seems like basically an observer in his own body, at literally every moment his body is/was/will be. he can speak of the future as we speak of the past. its already happened for him. i don't know if he sees multiple futures (it doesn't appear so based on his issue) but it seems like there is only one set of actions he can take.

    its kind of tragic that he can literally do anything and is stuck with one set of actions that he is always doing (im assuming he exeriences everything in what would seem like an instant to us, because a mind trying to differentiate the various moments he's acting in when experiencing them simultaneously is kinda hard for me to wrap my head around).


    edit: what i was trying to say was that since he knows what actions he will be taking at any moment im not sure he has the free will to choose to do otherwise.

    PantheraOnca on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I disagree with him, Dr. Manhattan, being "above" moral implications. To say that he doesn't think like we do and for that reason is immune to our judgements of morality is insane. That logic would leave sociopaths free to do whatever they want, simply because they don't see morality the same as we do. Which, if you think about old Ink Blot's approach to crime, is kind of incredible. A man who does what he sees necessary with complete disregard for the moral objections of others, Rorschach, is killed by a man who does whatever he sees necessary with complete disregard for the moral objections of others, Dr. Manhattan. It's beautiful.


    But still, I have morals so I may judge freely..... Dr. Manhattan is an asshole.

    You misunderstand my point: it's not about him thinking differently, it's about him being fundamentally greater and broader than we. His connection with time is exceedingly different, and calls into question issues of determinism and free will. Speaking of him "choosing" something is complicated, given that he does move in a cause-and-effect timeline the same way we do.

    mattharvest on
  • The Dark HillbillyThe Dark Hillbilly Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Dr. Manhattan technically isn't as omnipotent or as far-seeing as he believes he is. That little Tachyon field that Veidt built caused him to become fuzzy in his perceptions. I assumed he was diminished to the point of not being able to completely predict the future, or experience the future if you see it that way, and he was at least somewhat closer to a normal person. He was still somewhat capable of simultaneously experiencing chronological events, given his "I'm explaining it 90 seconds ago", but he wasn't entirely up to speed. He didn't just KNOW to go to Veidt's fortress, he had to find the source of the Tachyon fields. He never disabled those disruptions, and I think he CHOSE to kill Rorschach.

    The Dark Hillbilly on
Sign In or Register to comment.