(SPOILERS) Watchmen is the greatest book ever written

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    Quoth wrote: »
    Doesn't Manhattan specifically tell what's-her-face that he's going to kill someone? And we're meant to think it's her because he won't say who, but it's Rorschach?

    Manhattan can only vaguely see him killing someone in the snow, or him standing over a blood(we are led to believe that it might be the Nite Owl). I can't remember that exactly without the book in front of me. But the reason is the tachyons that Oz released, it was keeping Manhattan from being fully, consciously connected throughout time. "I had almost forgotten the rush from the feeling of uncertainty!"

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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I can't imagine someone seeing DKR Batman as a sympathetic character.


    But he's entirely without flaw!

    Just like me!!

    And Frank Miller!!!

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Was there moral ambiguity to Batman's actions in DKR? I thought everything he did made sense in the world Miller constructed. It's been years since I read the book, though.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Was there moral ambiguity to Batman's actions in DKR? I thought everything he did made sense in the world Miller constructed. It's been years since I read the book, though.

    It was kind of ambiguous at what point he should have realized that he's the best person who ever lived.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    It's worth it to not try and rationalize Manhattan's POV with regards to time. It doesn't fully work due to the break caused by the tachyons, and it's unclear if that just creates a momentary cloud in his stream of consciousness or if it severs his stream of consciousness to a large degree.

    Considering how arrogant Manhattan is, either is possible. He is used to being a man among ants, used to seeing the strings. Veidt manages to beat him for a brief moment by taking away Manhattan's sight.

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  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Is Manhattan really arrogant, or just aloof? Detached?

    Quoth on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    Oh he's certainly aloof and detached. But having those factors does not exclude arrogance.

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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Quoth wrote: »
    Is Manhattan really arrogant, or just aloof? Detached?

    He's the exact opposite of arrogant. He has no preconceptions at all, except in the most literal sense: he is profoundly aware of the future and the present in a simultaneous way, and this exceedingly non-linear consciousness is forced to operate within our linear reality. He has nothing in common, really, with a normal human. He's a force of nature by the time we meet him, and his interactions with humanity are more vestigial than anything else.

    mattharvest on
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I'm not saying those are mutually exclusive qualities, just that I did not perceive any arrogance on his part, merely detachment. Arrogance carries with it a connotation, even a denotation, of pride, and I never felt like Manhattan was overly proud. Any assumption of self-worth or superiority was, in a way, justified because he was valuable and superior. Even so, it seemed more that other people were telling him how important he was; he wasn't going around proclaiming his worth.

    Edit: Also what Matt said.

    Quoth on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    I rather disagree. His arrogance comes from his sense of time, his knowledge of the certainty of the future. I think that this is apparent when you compare the scenes of him looking to the future on Mars and then experiencing it in New York. The complete change of his demeanor is telling.

    And while he certainly loses more and more of human notions and conventions, that doesn't mean he totally loses his humanity. He cares more about humanity at the end of Watchmen than the beginning, albeit not quite in the manner we would expect. I would argue that his murder of Rorschach is an act of compassion and his final conversation with Veidt is an act of whimsy. And the comparison of Veidt's actions as the acts of 'the world's smartest ant' show a personality that is not just a force of nature.

    And then Manhattan leaves to go spread life in the universe.

    He's basically like a godhead E.O. Wilson.

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  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited October 2008
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Servo wrote: »
    no, he was always going to have been killed by jon. jon's known it since the day he became dr manhattan.

    No, Jon couldn't see that far, remember? Something Veidt did.

    i was under the impression that the tachyon field fuzzed out everything up to and around when jon was disintegrated again by veidt, but after that not so much. i would say it's probably unclear.

    Servo on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Servo wrote: »
    no, he was always going to have been killed by jon. jon's known it since the day he became dr manhattan.

    No, Jon couldn't see that far, remember? Something Veidt did.

    i was under the impression that the tachyon field fuzzed out everything up to and around when jon was disintegrated again by veidt, but after that not so much. i would say it's probably unclear.

    I agree with this interpretation.

    I've always pictured Jon's perception of reality as being analogous to looking from above down at a sheet of paper. The tachyon emitters created a blurred splotch on the page that Jon could see around - he could see what happened on all sides of the tachyon field, but not into it - and that field runs up to right about the end of the book.

    By contrast, humans normally live in the page, progressing from one side to the other, unable to look back or forward but rather only able to see the exact point in the page they occupy.

    Jon's ability to perceive the entire structure - seeing "cause and effect" as illusions of form instead of aspects of substance - completely obviates morality. To Jon, it isn't even meaningful to talk about moral choices in most senses, as "people" are just patterns of complexity moving through the universe, inextricable from one another and all other things.

    It bumps up against the rather involved theories of metaphysics, morality and psychology that come out of discussions of determinism.

    mattharvest on
  • CohsaeCohsae Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Hey look it's a new trailer! Well technically it's like an extended cut of the other trailer but still.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GUmgQHvqqc

    Cohsae on
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  • LegbaLegba Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's no longer available. Is it the same footage as here?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5EXW2-Fj9Q

    Legba on
  • CohsaeCohsae Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Loads fine for me. But yeah it's the same trailer. Just without the intro bit with the cast.

    Cohsae on
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  • LegbaLegba Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Cohsae wrote: »
    Loads fine for me.

    Might be some arbitrary region restriction. Oh well. Pretty cool footage, anyway.

    Legba on
  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    edited October 2008
    There's an option to disable the inline function on certain youtube videos

    DJ Eebs on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Man need a higher quality version of that like yesterday.

    Not sure why they're calling it an extended trailer when it's like at least 50% new stuff.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • ManonvonSuperockManonvonSuperock Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    ManonvonSuperock on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That trailer came out officially in high quality yesterday.

    http://74.53.95.28/

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • ManonvonSuperockManonvonSuperock Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    that gran torino eastwood flick at the top of that page looks good. i digs some deathwish type shit.

    ManonvonSuperock on
  • bdshortbdshort Registered User
    edited October 2008
    august wrote: »
    That trailer came out officially in high quality yesterday.

    http://74.53.95.28/

    Thanks, I wondered where that site had gone off to!

    bdshort on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    So I just read Watchmen, and it was awesome.

    I have just one question though. Did Laurie's mother and The Comedian have a relationship, or was Laurie's mother successfully raped at some point?

    DodgeBlan on
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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It was consensual.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yeah, that's the impression you get from the scene where Laurie's mother explains what happened.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • Toxic ToysToxic Toys Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I thought it was a little of both. She hooked up with The Comedian at some point in time but that one time it was rape. He thought he could get away with it because she gave it up before.

    Toxic Toys on
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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Toxic Toys wrote: »
    I thought it was a little of both. She hooked up with The Comedian at some point in time but that one time it was rape. He thought he could get away with it because she gave it up before.

    Pretty sure they never had sex until after the rape attempt.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yeah.

    He attempted to rape her and got the shit beat out of him.

    Then at some point they reconciled and he impregnated her.

    She still doesn't want him hanging out with her daughter, though. Their daughter.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • McClyMcCly Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    So the lesson here is: Try to rape a girl and she'll fall in love with you.

    McCly on
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  • SaphSaph Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Sally Jupiter obviously had a lot of issues.

    Saph on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    McCly wrote: »
    So the lesson here is: Try to rape a girl and she'll fall in love with you.

    That's that era: where characters like James Bond can be shown explicitly forcing a woman into sexual contact, only to have her 'melt' into his arms.

    For women in the 30s-early 60s especially, the contradictory roles you were expected to occupy were dizzying. A woman was simultaneously supposed to represent a virginal flower, and a world waiting to be discovered and conquered. If she resisted too hard, she was a lesbian. If she didn't resist at all, a whore. They were in a real no-man's land.

    To make it worse, many women internalized this facade, and as a result you have women like here where they're literally raped, and then they find themselves caring for the rapist as a conquering hero, with time. It's epically disturbing.

    (There's more to this topic, obviously, but I think I'm being true to the discussion)

    mattharvest on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited November 2008
    She didn't love him as a conquering hero. It was specifically when he showed tenderness. She didn't fall in love with him because he raped her, she fell in love with him despite it.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    See, I don't agree: she loved him because he showed her the affection she needed after being raped. He created the very emptiness she then needed him to fill.

    mattharvest on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited November 2008
    well there's not enough in the text for us to judge so your interpretation is as good as mine! I guess I think the way I do because I am a big softie.

    Tube on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I have to tell you: if your definition of "softie" includes thinking it's a nice thing that she fell in love with a man whom raped her, then you and I are operating with very different dictionaries.

    The man raped her. There's no do-overs in that little game: you rape someone, you're an evil, sick bastard. The idea of a woman falling in love with that person, at any point in the future, immediately tells of a broken woman with mental illness.

    mattharvest on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I thought he tried to rape her, but then Hooded Justice stopped him. Am I remembering things wrong?

    Robos A Go Go on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    You are not.

    Wildcat on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    IMAGE SPOILERS - ALSO, MIGHT NOT BE WORK SAFE DUE TO ASS CRACK:
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    Also, Sally clearly had issues - hell, one of the themes of WATCHMEN is that you 'have to be a little crazy' to be a superhero.

    jkylefulton on
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  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Stockholm syndrome in case it hasn't been mentioned.
    Loyalty to a more powerful abuser — in spite of the danger that this loyalty puts the victim in — is common among victims of domestic abuse, battered partners and child abuse (dependent children). In many instances the victims choose to remain loyal to their abuser, and choose not to leave him or her, even when they are offered a safe placement in foster homes or safe houses. This mental phenomenon is also known as Trauma-Bonding or Bonding-to-the-Perpetrator. This syndrome was described by psychoanalysts of the object relations theory school (see Fairbairn) as the phenomenon of psychological identification with the more powerful abuser. A variant of Stockholm Syndrome includes cases of abusive parents and abusive siblings in which the victim, even after entering adulthood, still justifies the family abuse.

    Quoth on
  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Anyone getting the Watchmen hardcover that's coming out on Wednesday? It's 40 bucks but you do get a new Dave Gibbons cover and the re-colored pages from the absolute edition.

    wirehead26 on
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