(SPOILERS) Watchmen is the greatest book ever written

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  • BurnageBurnage irregular Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    3. For those of you wondering what it would be like if Dr. Manhattan channeled his abilities to prevent the climax, you might want to check in to Sam Hamm's atrocious scipt, which normally I will not mention and would assault someone just for bringing up.

    I just read this script.

    Do not follow my example.

    Burnage on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited March 2008
    Anjin-San wrote: »
    Adrian was wrong and he subconsciously knew it.

    One, because he had to ask if what he did was right.

    Two, because of his dreams involving a certain pirate ship.

    I like the pirate ship analogy for Adrian, because taken to it's best match it means that he was wrong and he knows it. The people the castaway killed could represent the 2 million who died in New York, and if the analogy is taken literally the threat was never actually real. I hope that the purgatorial aspects of the story apply to him, because he deserves to be cast out from humanity and cursed with his guilt, because fuck him.

    but if you look at that analogy another way, it illustrates how adrian was so consumed by his fear of the war and desire to save others that he never considered that it might be better to not do anything. the ship might not be real, but if it is, then shouldn't you do something?

    Servo on
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  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited March 2008
    Algertman wrote: »
    Dr Manhattan is bullshit.

    So what would you have done if you were rorschach/nite-owl?

    Nobody would have believed Rorschach anyway. He was known to be delusional and if, and that's a big if, his journal would have saw print it would have been in a newspaper that was already filled with wild ass conspiracies. Nobody would have believed it.

    i disagree, if only because unlike most other nutty-ass conspiracy theories, this one is actually true.

    Servo on
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  • AlephAleph Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Why do people love Rorschach so much? He was frigging off his rockers, dude was no better than The Comedian.

    Aleph on
  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Aleph wrote: »
    Why do people love Rorschach so much? He was frigging off his rockers, dude was no better than The Comedian.

    Yeah, I'm kind of with you on this. He was a bad guy, even if his heart was in the right place. Really no different than Ozy when you break it down.

    amateurhour on

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Aleph wrote: »
    Why do people love Rorschach so much? He was frigging off his rockers, dude was no better than The Comedian.

    What the hell?

    The Comedian was a self-centered egotist who worked for the government because it allowed him to hurt people.

    Rorschach was a sociopath who killed the worst sort of criminals out there, pursuing his own form of justice.

    DarkPrimus on
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  • AlephAleph Registered User
    edited March 2008
    But he thought The Comedian was a genuine hero, he was also a homophobe, his political preference is shady at best, and most important of all; he was a genuine murderin' sociopath.

    Aleph on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Rorschach was uncompromising. Complete faith & confidence in himself and his values. Crazy in an admirable way.


    I mean, it helps that his values were along the lines I'd agree with to start.

    Scooter on
  • Synthetic OrangeSynthetic Orange Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Rorschach needs a bath, badly.

    Synthetic Orange on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Aleph wrote: »
    But he thought The Comedian was a genuine hero, he was also a homophobe, his political preference is shady at best, and most important of all; he was a genuine murderin' sociopath.

    Rorschach did not know about the Comedian's personal foibles. The Comedian stood for something that Rorschach believed in (America), even if he (the Comedian) couldn't care less about the American ideal.

    DarkPrimus on
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  • The One Dark KnightThe One Dark Knight Registered User
    edited March 2008
    The whole reason I love Rorshach is that he's not going to compromise his values for the sake of anything. There's nothing superficial or bullshit about him, he's only going to settle for the absolute truth. He's the only character that sticks to his guns instead of flaking out.

    The One Dark Knight on
    [END]
  • edited March 2008
    Aleph wrote: »
    He was also a homophobe

    When???

    Shamuuu on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I think Adrian gets whats coming to him in the end - he's destroyed all of his friendships, he's killed millions of people, and, as noted in the Graphitti HC, he lives to be 150 years old. So he's got 110-120 years of punishing himself for what he's done. In a way, Adrian is as alien as Dr. Manhatten - look at how he engages his young secretary right before she's murdered (in his pre-planned faux assassination), look at how he executes his Antartic stuff, or even his pet cat. Hell, read the backstory stuff with all of the fake interviews, he clearly has no problem manipulating people, or seeing them as basic economic units.
    He doesn't care, he's completely goal-oriented, a hero for doing what had to be done, and a monster for doing it.

    Fuck, I'm just rambling.

    jkylefulton on
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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited March 2008
    Yeah, I'm kind of with you on this. He was a bad guy, even if his heart was in the right place. Really no different than Ozy when you break it down.

    He's different from Ozymandius in that Rorschach's heart is genuinely in the right place. His big moral "flaw" is that he believes that if you're a rapist, murderer or what have you, you don't deserve to live. There's a fair gap from that to killing two million innocent people for some nebulous "greater good". Veidt's main motivation appears to be his belief that he's inherently better than everyone and knows what's good for them. Witness his creepy obsession with Alexander the Great for evidence of how much he respects people who dominate others to their will. Rorschach doesn't think he's better than you because he's smarter or more talented. Rorschach doesn't even really seem to think he's better than anyone, other than murderers and rapists. He's deranged and cruel, but at least he has strong principles, ones he's ready to die for.

    There's no comparison to the comedian at all. Blake was just a psychopath. Come back to me if you can find a panel where Rorschach shoots a defenseless pregnant woman.

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  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    There's no comparison to the comedian at all. Blake was just a psychopath. Come back to me if you can find a panel where Rorschach shoots a defenseless pregnant woman.

    He comes close with his landlady. If Night Owl isn't there, or if her kids aren't there, I think he crosses that line.

    Also, he does shoot a cop in the chest with a grappling hook gun.

    jkylefulton on
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    He wasn't going to kill his landlady, but he was probably going to beat her up. But why? Because she had made defaming remarks about him!

    The police was a case of him defending himself against a threat.

    Neither is unjustified by his code.

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  • edited March 2008
    So what about the part about being homophobic?

    Shamuuu on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Shamuuu wrote: »
    So what about the part about being homophobic?

    When writing in in his journal, he says something about how he believes Veidt to be a homosexual. He doesn't say anything about whether that's good or bad, but given that he mentions it at all, and combined with his Nixon worship, and conservative ideals, it's a safe bet he doesn't like gays.

    Also, I don't think Rorschach would have beaten up his landlady. For some reason he doesn't seem like the type to beat up women, unless it becomes absolutely, completely necessary.

    Munch on
  • edited March 2008
    More like he just wanted her to get the hint, don't do it ever again.

    Shamuuu on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Well he was going to do something to her, before he saw all the frightened kiddies.

    DarkPrimus on
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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited March 2008
    I think extrapolating homophobia from Rorschach based on the fact that he is somewhat conservative is somewhat prejudiced in itself.

    Tube on
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  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    my.php?image=watchmen1006gv8.jpg

    jkylefulton on
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    He probably doesn't care as long as they don't diddle kids.

    DarkPrimus on
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  • The One Dark KnightThe One Dark Knight Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Rorschach is an asshole.

    But he's our asshole. It's truly the mark of good writing when people are led to mainly sympathize with the fundamentalist, objectivist, totally a paranoid conspiracy theorist character.

    The One Dark Knight on
    [END]
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited March 2008
    He doesn't actually do anything there though. He just scares a massively unpleasant woman and then thinks better of it because he doesn't want to intimidate her in front of her children. Nowhere there is there a suggsetion of violence.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    The bit about Ozy being homosexual is probably just a point of interest because it would contribute to Rorschach's profile of the man.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • edited March 2008
    He doesn't actually do anything there though. He just scares a massively unpleasant woman and then thinks better of it because he doesn't want to intimidate her in front of her children. Nowhere there is there a suggsetion of violence.

    Thanks for agreeing with my valid point. :)

    Shamuuu on
  • AlephAleph Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Munch wrote: »
    When writing in in his journal, he says something about how he believes Veidt to be a homosexual. He doesn't say anything about whether that's good or bad, but given that he mentions it at all, and combined with his Nixon worship, and conservative ideals, it's a safe bet he doesn't like gays.

    This. He also said "must investigate further," in the said journal entry, as if Veidt's being homosexual or not were of some great significance to him.

    Aleph on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited March 2008
    That's still pretty vague grounds to declare him a disgusting homophobe.

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Rorschach admired Nixon and Comedian specifically because they were both tough, manly men. I'm not saying he'd be holding old fashioned fag drags from the back of a pickup truck, but it's likely that he'd be uncomfortable with the notion of homosexuality. Especially if his views lined up with Nixon's.
    I don't mind the homosexuality. I understand it. Nevertheless, goddamn, I don't think you glorify it on public television, homosexuality, even more than you glorify whores. We all know we have weaknesses. But, goddammit, what do you think that does to kids? You know what happened to the Greeks! Homosexuality destroyed them. Sure, Aristotle was a homo. We all know that. So was Socrates.

    Munch on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I don't think it was manliness that he admired, but rather their resolve.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    There's a fair gap from that to killing two million innocent people for some nebulous "greater good".
    There's absolutely nothing nebulous about it. The U.S. and Soviet Union were locked on a course that could only end in nuclear showdown, and his plan was to give them a threat too great for either to ignore, and too powerful for either to face without the whole cooperation of the other. Sometime down the road, when it is realized that there was no threat, that the whole thing was a fabrication, it's not going to matter. It's going to be a huge revelation that will stir up immense controversy as people come to grips with what it means, but the world will go on regardless. No one is going to say, 'This peace was built on a lie? I hope everyone remembers what side of the iron curtain they were living on, because we have to go right back to the brink of annhilation where we left off!"

    However, that is decades, centuries down the road. Contemporarily, it's still possible for things to be undone. The new peace will be relatively fragile for some time, and the untimely revelation of the truth could return things right to where they were. That's why Rorschach had to die.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • Retarded_TurkeyRetarded_Turkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Ugh, I have A Clash of Kings sitting on my desk begging to be read yet, I'm sitting here at work reading this terrible script. :(

    Retarded_Turkey on
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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
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    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Retarded_TurkeyRetarded_Turkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    That makes me smile<3

    Retarded_Turkey on
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  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited March 2008
    Aleph wrote: »
    Munch wrote: »
    When writing in in his journal, he says something about how he believes Veidt to be a homosexual. He doesn't say anything about whether that's good or bad, but given that he mentions it at all, and combined with his Nixon worship, and conservative ideals, it's a safe bet he doesn't like gays.

    This. He also said "must investigate further," in the said journal entry, as if Veidt's being homosexual or not were of some great significance to him.

    think about it this way, though. if green arrow were to turn out to be gay, batman would know before anyone else. not because batman hates fags or something, but because he likes to know things about people. it can come in handy.

    it's the same principle at work with rorschach. he doesn't have time to hate gay people, really.

    Servo on
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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Yeah, he's too busy hiding in dudes' fridges.

    Delduwath on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited March 2008
    So this is an odd question, but I have a friend whose wife is into comics, and I think she'd like Watchmen. She doesn't speak real good English though, so I was wondering if anyone knew if it was ever translated into other languages? Specifically Italian.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    So this is an odd question, but I have a friend whose wife is into comics, and I think she'd like Watchmen. She doesn't speak real good English though, so I was wondering if anyone knew if it was ever translated into other languages? Specifically Italian.

    Maybe? I can't read Italian, so I don't know if the original story is included in this book.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    Aleph wrote: »
    Munch wrote: »
    When writing in in his journal, he says something about how he believes Veidt to be a homosexual. He doesn't say anything about whether that's good or bad, but given that he mentions it at all, and combined with his Nixon worship, and conservative ideals, it's a safe bet he doesn't like gays.

    This. He also said "must investigate further," in the said journal entry, as if Veidt's being homosexual or not were of some great significance to him.

    think about it this way, though. if green arrow were to turn out to be gay, batman would know before anyone else. not because batman hates fags or something, but because he likes to know things about people. it can come in handy.

    it's the same principle at work with rorschach. he doesn't have time to hate gay people, really.

    Yeah. I think Rorschach would want to know just because. Not because he hates gays or anything-- though I do kind of picture him being uncomfortable around gays. He would want to know everything he could about everyone and everything. Like how Batman knows everyone's dirt and things he can exploit if he ever has to fight them or whatever. Same kind of thing.

    Watchmen is a really great comic book. I'm not sure if it is the best comic ever written, but it is one of the best uses of the medium I have ever seen. I may be the best comic ever, I am not sure. It is not my favorite comic ever, I think because of its darkness maybe. I'm not sure. I really enjoy it.

    To echo someone else, it really says something about the qaulity of the work when a guy as deranged and goofy as Rorschach-- a paranoid (perhaps rightly so) objectivist creep with hygiene problems-- is everyone's favorite character. All of the characters are really screwed up, damaged people though with serious problems.

    The page when Veidt stops his own assassination in his Antarctic base, with all of the symmetry and the V, that was amazing.

    I remember way back a really long time ago, I think when the comics stuff was still in D and D, guys had Watchmen character avatars. Kind of in the microheroes style, with horns thrown up and headbanging.

    DouglasDanger on
    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
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