(SPOILERS) Watchmen is the greatest book ever written

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  • grendel824_grendel824_ Registered User
    edited May 2008
    see317 wrote: »
    I don't know if it was relief so much as grief or anguish or maybe just sheer rage. I mean, the guy had to be pretty screwed up at that point if you look at what he just witnessed.

    I mean, he just watched his friend and one time partner turn his back on everything that Rorshach thought he believed in, watched Veidt (another long time acquaintance murder New York with a smile on his face and worst of all, he was completely powerless to do anything but stand by and watch.

    I'd imagine, given Rorshach's code of ethics, that made him as bad as an accomplice to the crime in his own eyes.

    I think I like Grendel's explanation better though. It's a little happier ending for Rorshach, him being glad to die without having to comprome his values.

    Well, my explanation changes every time I read it, I have to admit. One of the many reasons why I re-read the thing every year or two at least.

    grendel824_ on
  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    edited June 2008
    So I was never into comic books, but all my friends were. Then this one friend, whose aesthetic sense I generally trust, said, "You should read The Watchmen." "But I don't like comic books.", I replied. "You should read this one.", says he.

    Blew my fucking mind. Great stuff. This was maybe a year ago. So last week I am on the phone with this friend (we no longer live near one another). "You should read The Sandman", says he.

    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    Tiger Burning on
    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Well the guys who wrote those comics also wrote other comics.

    So you could start there.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Without turning this into a recommendations thread... Arkham Asylum is pretty darn good, if you like Sandman.

    Zetetic Elench on
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  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited June 2008
    People go nuts for League of Extraordinary Gentlemen also by Moore and to a lesser extent V for Vendetta.

    Just don't judge them on their movies!

    Virral on
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  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Holy shit, yes, League is amazing. And the intro to the second book alone made me fall in love with it.

    Zetetic Elench on
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  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited June 2008
    I should really read them one of these days... I think I haven't because I'd like the Absolute version (I like big shiny hardcovers) but by the time I got to the party they were pretty much sold out/crazy expensive.

    That's why I'm getting the Absolute Sandman even though I borrowed and read them all quite recently. I know long term I want to own these, so I want the nicest version.

    Virral on
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  • thorpethorpe Registered User
    edited June 2008
    I still think my favorite moment in all of comics is the panel right after Veidt thinks he's killed Dr. Manhattan, and you just see a giant blue fist punch through a massive bank of computer monitors and Jon's face in this look of complete "Did you really think THAT was going to do me in you poor fucker?"

    That said, the two or three full page spreads of the devastation of New York really did almost make me cry.

    thorpe on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited June 2008
    So I was never into comic books, but all my friends were. Then this one friend, whose aesthetic sense I generally trust, said, "You should read The Watchmen." "But I don't like comic books.", I replied. "You should read this one.", says he.

    Blew my fucking mind. Great stuff. This was maybe a year ago. So last week I am on the phone with this friend (we no longer live near one another). "You should read The Sandman", says he.

    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    the invisibles

    alan moore's swamp thing

    grant morrison's doom patrol

    Servo on
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  • LuxLux Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    august wrote: »
    Owl and Specter are pretty much the only sane, normal humans present, being buffeted around by personalities and forces beyond their understanding.

    Really, the only sane reaction to the end of the book is to hold on to one another.

    That's what's got me a little worried about the costumes. They don't look like normal, sane humans.

    Lux on
  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    That's a pretty big theme throughout the book, though; the kind of slightly odd mindset you have to have to dress up in costume and go performing acts of violence on muggers.

    Zetetic Elench on
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  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited June 2008
    dan dreiberg does it at least partly because he thinks it's sexy

    Servo on
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  • wyrlsswyrlss Registered User
    edited June 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    So I was never into comic books, but all my friends were. Then this one friend, whose aesthetic sense I generally trust, said, "You should read The Watchmen." "But I don't like comic books.", I replied. "You should read this one.", says he.

    Blew my fucking mind. Great stuff. This was maybe a year ago. So last week I am on the phone with this friend (we no longer live near one another). "You should read The Sandman", says he.

    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    the invisibles

    alan moore's swamp thing

    grant morrison's doom patrol

    this + we3 (goddamn make me cry comic book i love my pet bunny) + DMZ + Ex Machina + Y the last man + Walking Dead + Top10 + Transmetropolitan (Spider. Jerusalem.) + The Authority + Planetary

    I might have missed something. A few of these don't have any superheroes.

    wyrlss on
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  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Oh! DMZ is amazing. But very different from the Moore/Gaiman stuff we were discussing before.

    He may like the Invisibles. Maybe.

    Zetetic Elench on
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  • MugginsMuggins Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Eh.

    DMZ started falling after the second TPB for me.

    Watchmen is still great. I reread it like every 2 months and still pick up new things.

    Muggins on
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  • wyrlsswyrlss Registered User
    edited June 2008
    I actually don't regularly read DMZ. I don't regularly read many things. ([strike]Green Arrow[/strike], [strike]Action Philosophers[/strike], All-Star Superman)
    I go to my local public library. That's where I picked up the Watchmen, after reading some of the more recent stories in other TPBs, after reading Swamp Thing and Top10. I had no idea what I was getting into.
    So, I actually only read the first and second TPBs of DMZ.

    wyrlss on
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  • grendel824_grendel824_ Registered User
    edited June 2008
    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    They're some of the best of the best, but there's lots more out there. Unless you're the type to quit seeing movies after watching "Citizen Kane" and "Star Wars," just keep branching out from there. There's lots of crap, and lots of great stuff. The good stuff can help you appreciate the "okay" stuff a little more, too, if you let it.

    grendel824_ on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    They're some of the best of the best, but there's lots more out there. Unless you're the type to quit seeing movies after watching "Citizen Kane" and "Star Wars," just keep branching out from there. There's lots of crap, and lots of great stuff. The good stuff can help you appreciate the "okay" stuff a little more, too, if you let it.

    Starman (which is now being released in Omnibus, so you can get in on the ground floor)
    Fables
    New Frontier
    Golden Age
    Astro City

    jkylefulton on
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  • LegbaLegba Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Blankspace wrote: »
    Tube, what is your opinion on:
    Img_watchmen_0603_5.jpg

    Everyone said it looked super cool and I don't think it does. Rorscach doesn't wear a $300 leather coat, he wears a ratty brown trenchcoat with buttons missing.

    I'm fairly sure all those pictures are of the Watchmen in their heyday, before Nite-Owl became a fatty, Rorscach became a bum, The Comedian is murdered, etc etc.


    Emanuel

    Legba on
  • LegbaLegba Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    Bone
    Hellboy
    The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen

    It's a pretty high standard to live up to, but those never fail to blow me away, no matter how often I read them. Hellboy is more akin to Sandman with the whole mythology/mystical stuff, with some fantastic art. Make sure you pick up one of the trades with Mignola's art rather than a guest artist (don't worry, that's the majority of them) - I always found the stories lost something without Mignola's fantastic artwork.

    Bone is simply a fantastic story, from one end to the other - plus it's completed, and you can pick up the On Volume edition for a song. I've bought two of it so far.

    Finally, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is so ram-packed with references to Victorian litterature that I guarantee you'll never catch them all. But you really don't need to. All you need to know is that it's nothing like that rubbish movie.

    Legba on
  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited June 2008
    I've read Bone and I have to say I wasn't that impressed. It started strong and I did love the stupid rat-things, but I felt it just kept going down hill at a steady pace as it progressed. A bit like Lost, it felt like he was making shit up without thinking about where it was all going.

    Virral on
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  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    From Hell.

    Red or Alive on
  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited June 2008
    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    From Hell sucks, avoid it at all costs.

    fixed.

    Virral on
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  • LegbaLegba Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Virral wrote: »
    I've read Bone and I have to say I wasn't that impressed. It started strong and I did love the stupid rat-things, but I felt it just kept going down hill at a steady pace as it progressed. A bit like Lost, it felt like he was making shit up without thinking about where it was all going.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one - Bone is one of the favourite books on my bookshelf. Of course, it helps that Smith's art is really nice to look at, and that the various characters are sympathetic. The story itself is more akin to a bedtime story than anything else, but don't let that turn you away, because unlike Lost, it does tie itself up nicely by the end and it's quite obvious that Smith had a single story in mind from one end to the other.

    Legba on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Virral wrote: »
    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    From Hell sucks, avoid it at all costs.

    fixed.

    Not everyone agrees with you on that, see.

    From Hell isn't for everybody, but if he's looking to be challenged and liked Watchman, it's worth a try.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited June 2008
    august wrote: »
    Virral wrote: »
    So now my mind is being blown again (I'm about halfway through the compilation). Amazing stuff. My question, then, is how much stuff is out there in comic book land that delivers on this level? Where do I go next? Or, is this (The Watchmen and The Sandman) pretty much the peak and I should quit while I'm ahead?

    From Hell sucks, avoid it at all costs.

    fixed.

    Not everyone agrees with you on that, see.

    From Hell isn't for everybody, but if he's looking to be challenged and liked Watchman, it's worth a try.

    from hell is amazing and virral disappoints me.

    Servo on
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  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited June 2008
    I just like books that don't make me weep blood, that's all.

    Virral on
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  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Virral wrote: »
    I just like books that don't make me weep blood, that's all.

    You have a problem with the lettering. We Know.

    Red or Alive on
  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited June 2008
    Umm, apparently you don't. Because I have a problem with the art, not the lettering. I believe the lettering is all handwritten (although I might be wrong) and while I wasn't thrilled by it it's hardly noticable when compared to the egregious drawings.

    Look, I was being a bit flip, so shoot me! It's not like this is a stuffy forum where everyone feels the need to be totally serious all the time. I'm sorry I don't automatically worship at the Altar of Moore that some of you do, I know he's a great writer but that doesn't change the fact I don't like everything he's ever done.

    If you want my serious response to your two word recommendation, it would be that I disagree that this is on the same level as Watchmen and Sandman. I'm happy to acknowledge that to the right person it's a very good read, but it's hardly as universally loved as those other two.

    Speaking personally, I find the art to be so bad that it is an insurmountable barrier to enjoying the story and without a strong grasp of the time and the characters he used the uninitiated will be quite lost for the majority of the book. I would very strongly recommend that anyone contemplating buying this book should flip through it first and decide if you can handle the art, because if you can't you're going to find it almost impossible to read.

    In comparison I wouldn't hesitate to urge people to buy Sandman or Watchmen sight unseen, because I was so confident that anyone who actually sat down and read those two seriously would enjoy them.

    Better?

    Virral on
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  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Virral wrote: »
    Umm, apparently you don't. Because I have a problem with the art, not the lettering. I believe the lettering is all handwritten (although I might be wrong) and while I wasn't thrilled by it it's hardly noticable when compared to the egregious drawings.

    Look, I was being a bit flip, so shoot me! It's not like this is a stuffy forum where everyone feels the need to be totally serious all the time. I'm sorry I don't automatically worship at the Altar of Moore that some of you do, I know he's a great writer but that doesn't change the fact I don't like everything he's ever done.

    If you want my serious response to your two word recommendation, it would be that I disagree that this is on the same level as Watchmen and Sandman. I'm happy to acknowledge that to the right person it's a very good read, but it's hardly as universally loved as those other two.

    Speaking personally, I find the art to be so bad that it is an insurmountable barrier to enjoying the story and without a strong grasp of the time and the characters he used the uninitiated will be quite lost for the majority of the book. I would very strongly recommend that anyone contemplating buying this book should flip through it first and decide if you can handle the art, because if you can't you're going to find it almost impossible to read.

    In comparison I wouldn't hesitate to urge people to buy Sandman or Watchmen sight unseen, because I was so confident that anyone who actually sat down and read those two seriously would enjoy them.

    Better?

    Eh.

    Red or Alive on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited June 2008
    The idea that someone somewhere thinks that Eddie Campbell - Eddie fucking Campbell, the Bacchus and Alec guy - is an any way a bad artist makes my head vein pop out. "But it's all skritchy!" ARRRRGH.

    Jacobkosh on
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  • Mai-KeroMai-Kero Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Seaguy.

    Mai-Kero on
  • LegbaLegba Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Virral wrote: »
    Umm, apparently you don't. Because I have a problem with the art, not the lettering. I believe the lettering is all handwritten (although I might be wrong) and while I wasn't thrilled by it it's hardly noticable when compared to the egregious drawings.

    There's a lot of comics out there that I know I ought to love, because I'm a big story guy, but I just can't get into due to the art. Maybe it's bad, maybe it's just not my bag of chips, but holy cow I can not get past the 3rd page of this comic because of the art. Off the top of my head 30 Days of Night springs to mind. I really liked the concept and I really wanted to like the comic, but the art was such a turn-off.

    Conversely, there are comics that I absolutely loved, mainly because of the art. I don't bother with any Hellboy stories not drawn by Mignola, even if he wrote them. Sin City was fantastic, but without Miller's distinct art it wouldn't have been nearly as impressive.

    Legba on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    It's difficult to accept the "inevitability" of nuclear war when real life has shown it's not inevitable at all.

    I think it's safe to say that, in the Watchmen reality, it was an inevitability. The US had superpowered operatives, the Russians did not.

    The thing about Dr. Manhatten though is that he basically renders himself (and the other heroes) obsolete by virtue of the level of power he wields. By being as strong as he is he forces the Russians to create something even more powerful, ad nauseum.

    (I just finished reading this last night and holy shit it was good)

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited August 2008
    the russians can't and don't create anything more powerful

    Tube on
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  • Regicid3Regicid3 Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Regicid3 wrote: »
    God damn it, Tube!

    Why did I click this thread? I haven't finished the book and I didn't know he died . . .

    I only have myself to blame. :(

    I completely forgot about this spoiler when I actually finished the comic.

    It made me sad as fuck.

    Regicid3 on
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    the russians can't and don't create anything more powerful
    Wasn't that the whole point? Since the Russians couldn't do better, their only "hope" would be nuclear weapons. To avoid nuclear holocaust, Manhattan had to leave and there had to be a crisis that brought the countries together.

    Or did I miss something? I definitely have to read this again either way.

    Quoth on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The point was that while he existed, Manhattan precluded anyone from attacking the USA, but it was always understood that Manhattan was, at best, precariously situated. As evinced by how easily
    Veidt
    was able to manipulate him, it was only a matter of time before he abandoned the US and the world. The Russians, and everyone else, knew that at that point, there would be a massive shuffling of power as the table reset itself. If they didn't have those nukes ready, they'd be nowhere fast.

    As a result, Manhattan resulted in an end to the Cold War (i.e. building towards an seemingly distant but inevitable event of war) and the birth of, well, a Frozen War (i.e. building towards a distant but DEFINITELY inevitable event of war when Manhattan leaves).

    The fact that everyone knew this is evinced by the US' use of handlers to keep him attached.

    mattharvest on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    the russians can't and don't create anything more powerful

    "More powerful" was a poor choice of words - I should have just said "powerful". Manhatten existing created absolutely no level of security for America, despite all them looking at him as their security blanket. In the end all Manhatten's existence means to the Russians is "we need to build more, and bigger, bombs".

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I bet a lot of Russian scientists had their Intrinsic Field subtracted.

    jkylefulton on
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