I've never understood that: if the Anti-Life Equation is valid, then (a) its very acknowledged existence means that the heroes are irrefutably wrong, (b) how could there be ANY opposition to it? It's not like two different proofs can be valid AND contradictory...their very contradiction means one isn't valid...
To be honest I really hate the idea of the Anti-Life Equation basically being something that just brainwashes people into serving Darkseid.
I mean, the mighty and terrible Darkseid spending so much time and effort to obtain something that doesn't do much that a half-decent telepath can't? Seems stupid.
Although, come to think of it, telepaths are a lot rarer in DC compared to Marvel, but still.
In my timeline post from a few days ago, I placed Revelations #1-5 as taking place during the one-month gap because of Montoya's appearance in FC#4.
Except Renee specifically mentions Checkmate HQ in Revelations #3, which she couldn't possible've done since there's no gaps in Revelations for her to get there and back.
As I said earlier though, I'd bet that her short appearance in FC #4 has something to do with FC: Resist.
I just realized that L3W #5 hasn't been solicited yet, so it probably ships in February. Delays or purposeful I wonder.
I'm going to guess they're delays. If it were on purpose, why wouldn't they just start the series later? Instead we had to wait two months between L3W #1 and #2 and now another two months between #2 and #3. If they proceed at this rate, it'll finish sometime around April...
At least it's not as bad as Batman. Morrison/Daniel's delays have pushed Batman #682 and #683 into December, which'll clash with Denny O'Neil's Detective/Batman crossover.
In my timeline post from a few days ago, I placed Revelations #1-5 as taking place during the one-month gap because of Montoya's appearance in FC#4.
Except Renee specifically mentions Checkmate HQ in Revelations #3, which she couldn't possible've done since there's no gaps in Revelations for her to get there and back.
As I said earlier though, I'd bet that her short appearance in FC #4 has something to do with FC: Resist.
I just realized that L3W #5 hasn't been solicited yet, so it probably ships in February. Delays or purposeful I wonder.
I'm going to guess they're delays. If it were on purpose, why wouldn't they just start the series later? Instead we had to wait two months between L3W #1 and #2 and now another two months between #2 and #3. If they proceed at this rate, it'll finish sometime around April...
At least it's not as bad as Batman. Morrison/Daniel's delays have pushed Batman #682 and #683 into December, which'll clash with Denny O'Neil's Detective/Batman crossover.
But we get a new issue of Batman almost every week! (And a issue of detective in the off week.
To be honest I really hate the idea of the Anti-Life Equation basically being something that just brainwashes people into serving Darkseid.
I mean, the mighty and terrible Darkseid spending so much time and effort to obtain something that doesn't do much that a half-decent telepath can't? Seems stupid.
Although, come to think of it, telepaths are a lot rarer in DC compared to Marvel, but still.
The way I see it, the anti-life equation is much more.
The way it's been portrayed, the anti-life equation is like a mathematical proof that says Darkseid is bigger and better than everything ever, that it is morally right that he should rule all of existence. With the anti-life equation, his victory is written in terms of fundamental physics; it is physically impossible for Darkseid to lose.
Euclidean Geometry
Newtonian Physics
Einstein's relativity stuff
Whatever comes next
DARKSEID!!
The brain-washing is simply the effect the anti-life equation has on humans. When confronted with absolute, undeniable, almost religious proof of Darkseid's superiority and innate right to rule, the human mind shuts down and simply believes.
[EDIT] The whatever comes next probably has something to do with quantum and probability.
[EDIT 2] The way the story is progressing, I'm guessing the Speedforce is the stuff that trumps even Darkseid; the next in line, as it were.
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
And it's more than brain washing, it's more equivalent to soul washing. There is no resistance, Darkseid IS. You can't fight it, can't beat it. It shows you that everything you have ever done has been in vain, because the only thing that matters the only will that matters is his.
Bloods End on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
Yeah, but the existence of, say, Superman disproves the whole thing, and the broadcast, of, say, the Symbol of the House of El would undo all the work quite a bit, so less Euclidian Geometry and Newtonian Physics, more math no one should actually give a shit about, they just do, for some reason.
My friend just read through my Final Crisis issues and kept raising all of these annoying questions like, "why isn't Darkseid just invading, why bother with the Anti-Life Equation, why haven't they done this before, blah blah blah"
And my answer was to ask him to shut up because this is a comic book and it makes for a good story
Zeromus on
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
My friend just read through my Final Crisis issues and kept raising all of these annoying questions like, "why isn't Darkseid just invading, why bother with the Anti-Life Equation, why haven't they done this before, blah blah blah"
And my answer was to ask him to shut up because this is a comic book and it makes for a good story
Well, Darkseid was dead and trapped as a lifeless spirit until the end of 4 only capable of possession, anti-life wipes out all resistance and is a testament to his massive ego, and he's never managed to win a war in heaven before.
And Mr Miracle is immune to the ATL for some reason.
But that makes no damned sense.
Look, if the Anti-Life Equation is mathematical proof that life is meaningless, then it is literally impossible for it to be disproven. This is just the definition of the term "proof". If there is some way to disprove the ALE, then that means the ALE is not a proof of anything, but rather at best an approximate model that is actually FALSE.
It is just a fundamentally easy concept that is inexplicably nonsensical in the comic.
It's not like they're saying this is the Anti-Life Model: they describe it as a fundamental truth about the universe, and then ignore ALL the implications.
And Mr Miracle is immune to the ATL for some reason.
But that makes no damned sense.
Look, if the Anti-Life Equation is mathematical proof that life is meaningless, then it is literally impossible for it to be disproven. This is just the definition of the term "proof". If there is some way to disprove the ALE, then that means the ALE is not a proof of anything, but rather at best an approximate model that is actually FALSE.
It is just a fundamentally easy concept that is inexplicably nonsensical in the comic.
It's not like they're saying this is the Anti-Life Model: they describe it as a fundamental truth about the universe, and then ignore ALL the implications.
Well, no one said that Darkseid tells the truth all the time. They could just all be lying. Or they use cognitive dissonance as an energy source.
To be honest I really hate the idea of the Anti-Life Equation basically being something that just brainwashes people into serving Darkseid.
I mean, the mighty and terrible Darkseid spending so much time and effort to obtain something that doesn't do much that a half-decent telepath can't? Seems stupid.
Although, come to think of it, telepaths are a lot rarer in DC compared to Marvel, but still.
The way I see it, the anti-life equation is much more.
The way it's been portrayed, the anti-life equation is like a mathematical proof that says Darkseid is bigger and better than everything ever, that it is morally right that he should rule all of existence. With the anti-life equation, his victory is written in terms of fundamental physics; it is physically impossible for Darkseid to lose.
Euclidean Geometry
Newtonian Physics
Einstein's relativity stuff
Whatever comes next
DARKSEID!!
The brain-washing is simply the effect the anti-life equation has on humans. When confronted with absolute, undeniable, almost religious proof of Darkseid's superiority and innate right to rule, the human mind shuts down and simply believes.
[EDIT] The whatever comes next probably has something to do with quantum and probability.
[EDIT 2] The way the story is progressing, I'm guessing the Speedforce is the stuff that trumps even Darkseid; the next in line, as it were.
See, here's where I disagree: things like Newtonian physics and Relativity are models that we know are only approximations of what's actually governing the universe. We know for an empirical fact, for example, that Newtonian physics only cover part of the macroscopic world and completely falls apart at very small, very large, or very fast scales. However, it works as a close enough approximation that we can employ it in the right domain. The ALE, on the other hand, is described as the literal, PERFECT description of the universe. It isn't an approximation: it's the word of God, as it were, scribed in the the fabric of existence. It's not some model designed by a scientist to account for data, but rather a component of the data. The ALE is like gravity itself, not the models we propose to explain gravity.
That's what makes it so stupid to talk about a "life equation", because the existence of a "life equation" would mean that, in fact, neither the ALE NOR the LE were actually true, but rather that both were false to some degree. Otherwise, the right one would always beat the wrong one, period, full-stop.
I'm not saying the comic isn't cool (though it's a touch more complicated that I might like, I'm still pleased with the story). I'm just saying that it'd be a whole lot better if the ALE was simply talked about a bit differently.
Btw, I'd be very curious how my asking questions about something in a comic on a comic forum somehow ruins anything for you. I mean, enjoy the comic however you want, it's not like I'm trying to change your opinion about the book.
Hey, my post didn't even mention the life equation - it mentioned the speed force - but sure, I'll bite.
Maybe the speed force doesn't play by the rules. I mean, there are about 52 or so dimensions anchored into reality by New Earth. Between these dimensions is the Bleed. Nowhere in this model of the DC multiverse does it mention the Speed Force, which has been described as a dimension. Maybe the speed force exists outside of the multiverse and is thus not subject to the physics of the DCU.
This makes sense as the Flash keeps doing shit that shouldn't be possible according to the physics we know (though how close the DCU physics resembles ours is a matter of contention). He's cheating by surrounding himself with a set of rules that allows his shenanigans. Maybe that's a way to bypass the ALE, if the ALE is supposed to represent an absolute truth in the DCU.
Of course, there's no way that Morrison will write it this way. It's too contrived. We'll see, I guess.
I'm saying the comic isn't cool (though it's a touch more complicated that I might like, I'm still pleased with the story). I'm just saying that it'd be a whole lot better if the ALE was simply talked about a bit differently.
Btw, I'd be very curious how my asking questions about something in a comic on a comic forum somehow ruins anything for you. I mean, enjoy the comic however you want, it's not like I'm trying to change your opinion about the book.
And Mr Miracle is immune to the ATL for some reason.
But that makes no damned sense.
Look, if the Anti-Life Equation is mathematical proof that life is meaningless, then it is literally impossible for it to be disproven. This is just the definition of the term "proof". If there is some way to disprove the ALE, then that means the ALE is not a proof of anything, but rather at best an approximate model that is actually FALSE.
It is just a fundamentally easy concept that is inexplicably nonsensical in the comic.
It's not like they're saying this is the Anti-Life Model: they describe it as a fundamental truth about the universe, and then ignore ALL the implications.
Look, light is a particle as well as a wave.
I don't think you can break the Anti-Life Equation down into simple terms that normal people like us can understand. I mean, the god of darkness in the DCU has spent a long ass time searching for it so it seems a little bit beyond the scope of mere mortals grasping it.
Fellhand on
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
We can't comprehend the pure anti-life equation. In it's spoken form it looks like a balloon of darkness and sounds like static.
And Mr Miracle is immune to the ATL for some reason.
But that makes no damned sense.
Look, if the Anti-Life Equation is mathematical proof that life is meaningless, then it is literally impossible for it to be disproven. This is just the definition of the term "proof". If there is some way to disprove the ALE, then that means the ALE is not a proof of anything, but rather at best an approximate model that is actually FALSE.
It is just a fundamentally easy concept that is inexplicably nonsensical in the comic.
It's not like they're saying this is the Anti-Life Model: they describe it as a fundamental truth about the universe, and then ignore ALL the implications.
Look, light is a particle as well as a wave.
I don't think you can break the Anti-Life Equation down into simple terms that normal people like us can understand. I mean, the god of darkness in the DCU has spent a long ass time searching for it so it seems a little bit beyond the scope of mere mortals grasping it.
Everything behaves like a particle and a wave (which is different from BEING a particle and a wave), because "particle" and "wave" are incomplete models that function only over certain domains. However, a fully accurate descriptor would account for both. All of our scientific models are approximations that attempt to model reality, as I said.
Look, it has nothing to do with whether WE as a species can understand the ALE: Darkside apparently does, and everyone from The Source to Metron say that the ALE is an actual, literal part of the DCU reality (apparently transcending into all of the DC multiverse), and that it's true. Its truth is nonsensical in that it contradicts all story claims that there is a life equation, etc.
You can't just smear away a point by saying we can't comprehend it.
Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
Darkseid and his ilk are gods. Like literally gods. They just kicked the asses of Zeus, Athena, and the old Egyptian Gods. They can do pretty much anything they want.
The way the story is progressing, I'm guessing the Speedforce is the stuff that trumps even Darkseid; the next in line, as it were.
I think so, too. You have Barry taking away the anti-life in Iris in Final Crisis, Inertia actually hurting Libra in Rogue's Revenge (something The Spectre couldn't manage to do), and then Bart's supposed return in Legion of 3 Worlds
so the speed force probably plays a big role
Garlic Bread on
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
Darkseid and his ilk are gods. Like literally gods. They just kicked the asses of Zeus, Athena, and the old Egyptian Gods. They can do pretty much anything they want.
No, they can't: if there's one continuing truth for them it's that they're not omnipotent. They're limited by logic and the laws of the universe just like every other deity in the universe. Apparently, even the creator (i.e. The Source) is limited in this fashion, in D.C.
The fact that the New Gods are limited by the laws of the universe is evidence in a million ways, but here's the obvious one: if the laws of the ALE didn't bind the New Gods, then Darkseid wouldn't care about it.
there is one set for which both the ALE and the LE hold true, the null set. the two equations have just been working out their iterations since the beginning of existence and are about to find the null set. This will cause the DCU to end. Eventually, the DCAU will spring anew and all DC comics will take place in it.
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And Mr Miracle is immune to the ATL for some reason.
I mean, the mighty and terrible Darkseid spending so much time and effort to obtain something that doesn't do much that a half-decent telepath can't? Seems stupid.
Although, come to think of it, telepaths are a lot rarer in DC compared to Marvel, but still.
True 'dat.
Guys, stop being so fucking selfish and just give the ladies your goddamn coats!
Fuckin' giant dogs running around, Mary Marvel's dressed up like a fetish hooker, and all this just because you don't want to be cold.
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Except Renee specifically mentions Checkmate HQ in Revelations #3, which she couldn't possible've done since there's no gaps in Revelations for her to get there and back.
As I said earlier though, I'd bet that her short appearance in FC #4 has something to do with FC: Resist.
I'm going to guess they're delays. If it were on purpose, why wouldn't they just start the series later? Instead we had to wait two months between L3W #1 and #2 and now another two months between #2 and #3. If they proceed at this rate, it'll finish sometime around April...
At least it's not as bad as Batman. Morrison/Daniel's delays have pushed Batman #682 and #683 into December, which'll clash with Denny O'Neil's Detective/Batman crossover.
But we get a new issue of Batman almost every week! (And a issue of detective in the off week.
The way I see it, the anti-life equation is much more.
The way it's been portrayed, the anti-life equation is like a mathematical proof that says Darkseid is bigger and better than everything ever, that it is morally right that he should rule all of existence. With the anti-life equation, his victory is written in terms of fundamental physics; it is physically impossible for Darkseid to lose.
Euclidean Geometry
Newtonian Physics
Einstein's relativity stuff
Whatever comes next
DARKSEID!!
The brain-washing is simply the effect the anti-life equation has on humans. When confronted with absolute, undeniable, almost religious proof of Darkseid's superiority and innate right to rule, the human mind shuts down and simply believes.
[EDIT] The whatever comes next probably has something to do with quantum and probability.
[EDIT 2] The way the story is progressing, I'm guessing the Speedforce is the stuff that trumps even Darkseid; the next in line, as it were.
Perhaps it's an apt comparison afterall.
My friend just read through my Final Crisis issues and kept raising all of these annoying questions like, "why isn't Darkseid just invading, why bother with the Anti-Life Equation, why haven't they done this before, blah blah blah"
And my answer was to ask him to shut up because this is a comic book and it makes for a good story
Well, Darkseid was dead and trapped as a lifeless spirit until the end of 4 only capable of possession, anti-life wipes out all resistance and is a testament to his massive ego, and he's never managed to win a war in heaven before.
Did you tell him that beforehand there were good gods that'd fight him if he tried anything?
But that makes no damned sense.
Look, if the Anti-Life Equation is mathematical proof that life is meaningless, then it is literally impossible for it to be disproven. This is just the definition of the term "proof". If there is some way to disprove the ALE, then that means the ALE is not a proof of anything, but rather at best an approximate model that is actually FALSE.
It is just a fundamentally easy concept that is inexplicably nonsensical in the comic.
It's not like they're saying this is the Anti-Life Model: they describe it as a fundamental truth about the universe, and then ignore ALL the implications.
See, here's where I disagree: things like Newtonian physics and Relativity are models that we know are only approximations of what's actually governing the universe. We know for an empirical fact, for example, that Newtonian physics only cover part of the macroscopic world and completely falls apart at very small, very large, or very fast scales. However, it works as a close enough approximation that we can employ it in the right domain. The ALE, on the other hand, is described as the literal, PERFECT description of the universe. It isn't an approximation: it's the word of God, as it were, scribed in the the fabric of existence. It's not some model designed by a scientist to account for data, but rather a component of the data. The ALE is like gravity itself, not the models we propose to explain gravity.
That's what makes it so stupid to talk about a "life equation", because the existence of a "life equation" would mean that, in fact, neither the ALE NOR the LE were actually true, but rather that both were false to some degree. Otherwise, the right one would always beat the wrong one, period, full-stop.
edit: this is a rhetorical question
Btw, I'd be very curious how my asking questions about something in a comic on a comic forum somehow ruins anything for you. I mean, enjoy the comic however you want, it's not like I'm trying to change your opinion about the book.
Maybe the speed force doesn't play by the rules. I mean, there are about 52 or so dimensions anchored into reality by New Earth. Between these dimensions is the Bleed. Nowhere in this model of the DC multiverse does it mention the Speed Force, which has been described as a dimension. Maybe the speed force exists outside of the multiverse and is thus not subject to the physics of the DCU.
This makes sense as the Flash keeps doing shit that shouldn't be possible according to the physics we know (though how close the DCU physics resembles ours is a matter of contention). He's cheating by surrounding himself with a set of rules that allows his shenanigans. Maybe that's a way to bypass the ALE, if the ALE is supposed to represent an absolute truth in the DCU.
Of course, there's no way that Morrison will write it this way. It's too contrived. We'll see, I guess.
Quoted for Freudian slip.
Look, light is a particle as well as a wave.
I don't think you can break the Anti-Life Equation down into simple terms that normal people like us can understand. I mean, the god of darkness in the DCU has spent a long ass time searching for it so it seems a little bit beyond the scope of mere mortals grasping it.
Everything behaves like a particle and a wave (which is different from BEING a particle and a wave), because "particle" and "wave" are incomplete models that function only over certain domains. However, a fully accurate descriptor would account for both. All of our scientific models are approximations that attempt to model reality, as I said.
Look, it has nothing to do with whether WE as a species can understand the ALE: Darkside apparently does, and everyone from The Source to Metron say that the ALE is an actual, literal part of the DCU reality (apparently transcending into all of the DC multiverse), and that it's true. Its truth is nonsensical in that it contradicts all story claims that there is a life equation, etc.
You can't just smear away a point by saying we can't comprehend it.
I think so, too. You have Barry taking away the anti-life in Iris in Final Crisis, Inertia actually hurting Libra in Rogue's Revenge (something The Spectre couldn't manage to do), and then Bart's supposed return in Legion of 3 Worlds
so the speed force probably plays a big role
He's returning in issue 5.
No, they can't: if there's one continuing truth for them it's that they're not omnipotent. They're limited by logic and the laws of the universe just like every other deity in the universe. Apparently, even the creator (i.e. The Source) is limited in this fashion, in D.C.
The fact that the New Gods are limited by the laws of the universe is evidence in a million ways, but here's the obvious one: if the laws of the ALE didn't bind the New Gods, then Darkseid wouldn't care about it.
Nice.
I'm sure Morrison will be able to find a more elegant solution. Maybe.
Being Barry Allen
You shut your mouth right now.