He 'won', but he got his ass kicked by Orion in the process. His broken body fell backwards through time and space and he was left without much of his power, and had to find a human host. This was explained in Mr. Miracle, DC Universe #0, FC #1 and again in FC #6.
Why did Orion kicking his ass send him backwards in time? Why did he lose so much of his power?
It wasn't explained, it was just stated, "this is what happened, nevermind the why or the how".
Why is it breaking the Multiverse?
Because he's a God. He (and the concepts he represents, like evil and slavery) is bigger than time, space, and parallel dimensions.[/QUOTE]
So why have we never seen any of these effects in any other story he's been in in the past?
Just read it in the parking lot. Complete train wreck. Hah hah hah hah.
You're glad that you didn't like something you spent $3.50 on? Isn't that a little...you know...retarded?
It was worth the $2.60 (35% off of $3.99) to see what a giant clusterfuck FC ended up being. It's an undefensible joke of a finish to a shoddy story, period. It does maintain the fine "Crisis tradition" of having shitty stories, though.
He 'won', but he got his ass kicked by Orion in the process. His broken body fell backwards through time and space and he was left without much of his power, and had to find a human host. This was explained in Mr. Miracle, DC Universe #0, FC #1 and again in FC #6.
Why did Orion kicking his ass send him backwards in time? Why did he lose so much of his power?
Apokolips and New Genesis exist beyond time and space. If you got forcibly ejected from someplace outside the normal universe, why wouldn't you turn up at some random place in the past or future? As for losing his power because he was beaten nearly to death - I mean, isn't that kind of self-explanatory? He barely survived a war that apparently killed almost all the other gods, and he has been removed from the source of his power.
Why is it breaking the Multiverse?
Because he's a God. He (and the concepts he represents, like evil and slavery) is bigger than time, space, and parallel dimensions.
So why have we never seen any of these effects in any other story he's been in in the past?
Is this a trick question? It hasn't been seen to happen before!
So are you a Grant Morrison fan, or a hater? Morrison really polarizes readers.
Situational - I think he's written some wonderful super-hero stories (I'd put ALL-STAR SUPERMAN #6 up as one of the best comics I've read, in 23 years of reading the things), but he's written a lot of horrible super-hero stuff as well (I would place FINAL CRISIS into this category).
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
It was worth the $2.60 (35% off of $3.99) to see what a giant clusterfuck FC ended up being. It's an undefensible joke of a finish to a shoddy story, period. It does maintain the fine "Crisis tradition" of having shitty stories, though.
These two sentences represent almost everything that's wrong with the entire creepy codependent world of fandom. I literally cannot fathom the profound, almost sublime idiocy of spending time or money reading something you don't like just to have the privilege of lol'ing about it on the Internet. I mean, do you even realize how messed up and cynical that is?
It was worth the $2.60 (35% off of $3.99) to see what a giant clusterfuck FC ended up being. It's an undefensible joke of a finish to a shoddy story, period. It does maintain the fine "Crisis tradition" of having shitty stories, though.
These two sentences represent almost everything that's wrong with the entire creepy codependent world of fandom. I literally cannot fathom the profound, almost sublime idiocy of spending time or money reading something you don't like just to have the privilege of lol'ing about it on the Internet. I mean, do you even realize how messed up and cynical that is?
My problem is more that buying things you don't like encourages production of things you don't like.
(In other words: Why the fuck did you schmucks by Countdown?)
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
edited January 2009
I only by things I hate because I love hating things.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
No more messed up than you judging me for it, I suppose. But that's part of the fun too, right?
Not really, no. If I don't like a book, I don't wander into its thread and hurfdurf all over the place.
EDIT: also, what Fencingsax said. But it's not just that. Lots of people go "oh it's okay I just pirated it." No! It's not okay. You wasted valuable minutes of your life and contributed to a toxic culture that's strangling the life out of comics.
It was worth the $2.60 (35% off of $3.99) to see what a giant clusterfuck FC ended up being. It's an undefensible joke of a finish to a shoddy story, period. It does maintain the fine "Crisis tradition" of having shitty stories, though.
These two sentences represent almost everything that's wrong with the entire creepy codependent world of fandom. I literally cannot fathom the profound, almost sublime idiocy of spending time or money reading something you don't like just to have the privilege of lol'ing about it on the Internet. I mean, do you even realize how messed up and cynical that is?
My problem is more that buying things you don't like encourages production of things you don't like.
(In other words: Why the fuck did you schmucks by Countdown?)
COUNTDOWN cannot be explained - it sold 70k units per issue! I'm still convinced that 40-50k of those are sitting in retailer's quarter boxes, somewhere.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited January 2009
Why did Batman arrive in the past (possibly from Barry and Wally) in Superman's baby-rocket?
No more messed up than you judging me for it, I suppose. But that's part of the fun too, right?
Not really, no. If I don't like a book, I don't wander into its thread and hurfdurf all over the place.
EDIT: also, what Fencingsax said. But it's not just that. Lots of people go "oh it's okay I just pirated it." No! It's not okay. You wasted valuable minutes of your life and contributed to a toxic culture that's strangling the life out of comics.
Hey, the comic companies are the ones that fucked up, by catering to an older crowd to begin with. You used to be in the minority if you read comics for 20+ years - now, that's the entire fanbase.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited January 2009
I reread Final Crisis #1-6 this morning before reading #7, and it was all well and good. The story made sense (as much as it could) without months between reading the issues
but then I read #7 and I honestly have no clue what happened at all.
I reread Final Crisis #1-6 this morning before reading #7, and it was all well and good. The story made sense (as much as it could) without months between reading the issues
but then I read #7 and I honestly have no clue what happened at all.
Hey, the comic companies are the ones that fucked up, by catering to an older crowd to begin with. You used to be in the minority if you read comics for 20+ years - now, that's the entire fanbase.
But the older crowd punishes them every time they try something new. Kyle Rayner got DC years of death threats and convention fights and god knows what else. I'm certainly not excusing the companies or the long string of idiotic decisions they've made over the years, but I feel like the relationship between them and the hardcore remaining fanbase can best be described as intensely fucked up and weird.
I reread Final Crisis #1-6 this morning before reading #7, and it was all well and good. The story made sense (as much as it could) without months between reading the issues
but then I read #7 and I honestly have no clue what happened at all.
You're reading Superman Beyond too, right?
Does it explain why that Monitor is a vampire?
From what I've heard and read, the Monitor(s) are supposed to be literally feeding off of the events and stories going on in the Multiverse via the hourglass-like device in the middle of their home. I dunno if it connects to the Bleed at all though.
I reread Final Crisis #1-6 this morning before reading #7, and it was all well and good. The story made sense (as much as it could) without months between reading the issues
but then I read #7 and I honestly have no clue what happened at all.
You're reading Superman Beyond too, right?
Does it explain why that Monitor is a vampire?
From what I've heard and read, the Monitor(s) are supposed to be literally feeding off of the events and stories going on in the Multiverse via the hourglass-like device in the middle of their home. I dunno if it connects to the Bleed at all though.
Oh, I thought he was the Monitor from the vampire Earth or something.
I reread Final Crisis #1-6 this morning before reading #7, and it was all well and good. The story made sense (as much as it could) without months between reading the issues
but then I read #7 and I honestly have no clue what happened at all.
You're reading Superman Beyond too, right?
Does it explain why that Monitor is a vampire?
Yes.
t Owenashi:
You've got it. Bleed = life/story/consciousness = monitor food.
Hey, the comic companies are the ones that fucked up, by catering to an older crowd to begin with. You used to be in the minority if you read comics for 20+ years - now, that's the entire fanbase.
But the older crowd punishes them every time they try something new. Kyle Rayner got DC years of death threats and convention fights and god knows what else. I'm certainly not excusing the companies or the long string of idiotic decisions they've made over the years, but I feel like the relationship between them and the hardcore remaining fanbase can best be described as intensely fucked up and weird.
I completely agree. And it doesn't help that the entire industry is essentially held hostage by the (approximate) 2500 or so retailers in North America, most of which are every bit the Simpsons Comic Book Guy stereotype. You can have absolutely terrific books get passed by because they aren't part of an event.
But we all know that - I bet every member of this forum has had a favorite book cancelled out from under them due to low sales.
I thought the Hal lovers were a minority. Kyle did last for quite a while.
It's hard to say. The 90s get a (partially deserved) bad rap for the Image/speculator era and the horrid lengths the big two went to try and copy their success, but there was also an audience for new stuff in the 90s that led Marvel and especially DC to take a lot of chances on books that nobody would do nowadays - Young Heroes in Love, Aztek, lots and lots of crazy Vertigo stuff like Shade the Changing Man.
That audience liked Kyle, because his debut made a great entry point into what had been a really continuity-burdened corner of DC. However, a lot of those people got chased away from comics by, as jkyle points out, assy retailers, books they liked getting cancelled out from under them, et cetera. I don't know if we can ever get those people back - I imagine the ones that still read comics probably do so from the sidelines, picking up the occasional trade at Borders.
The Issue is narrated by Lois Lane and is told mainly in flashback. half the story deals with Darkseid, the other deals with Mandrakk.
On the Watchtower everyone prepares a rocket ship holding relics and trophies of the League, in hopes that if reality dies a memory of earths superheroes remain
Renee Montoya and the Supermen of the multiverse pick up Obama Superman and Nubia Wonder Woman.
Superman confronts Darkseid in his bunker while holding the body of Batman. Darkseid tells Superman that he's to late and that he turned his back on his people, and that if Superman kills him everyone infected with the ALE will die (as they are all a part of Darkseid now)
Darkseid has the ALE infected attack Superman as he readies the God gun that Batman shot him with to kill Superman. That's when the Flash's shows up with the Black Racer hot on their tails and they run through Darkseid, sparing Superman.
"The terminal moment is here. I come to all, even you" replies the Black Racer to a shocked Darkseid.
Cut to Aquaman back from the dead fighting the Deep Six.
It appears that Dan Turpin regains control of his body.
Cut to the future as Superman and Supergirl are trying to recreate the Miracle Machine that Brainiac 5 showed him as a way of channeling the Life Equation. Silvana and Luther look at the scematics with aw.
Back in the past. Checkmate castle has been breached as Justifiers and Omac's battle it out. on the watchtower we see Earth covered in Metrons circuit. The Japanese heroes fight the Omac's as Lord Eye shuts down.
Looks like Everyone in the castle made it to the Kamandi universe.
Superman stands over Darkseid and explains that Darkseid is dying from the bullet. Wonderwoman and the rest of the furies show up along with Luther who has gained control of the Secret Society of Supervillians. Luther sides with Superman as Frankenstein fights Wonder Woman, Supergirl takes out Gigantrix, and the army of supervillians take out Batwoman and Catwoman. the virus that Wonderwoman has has no effect on Frankenstein as he's dead and the supervillians has been given a vachine.
Back to the present, an unifected Wonder Woman, Supergirl, and Superman watch over the last remaining humans as they are shrunked and placed in cold storage for a journey to another earth.
As Darkseid weakens and dies his hold on everyone slips, allowing Wonder Woman to break free and chain Darkseid's essense with her Lasso.
As Superman completes the Miracle machine, Darkseid's essense shows up, Superman uses a counter-vibration to finish off Darkseid "Darkseid always hated music"
Mandrakk shows up with Vampire-Ultraman, having just fed on the Radiant and the Spectre and leaving them powerless. Superman uses his own solar powered cells to jump start the Miracle Machine.
The Superman arrive and attack Ultraman.
The miracle macine contacts Nix Uotan who summons Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew. the Supermen, the Green Lanterns, and the Zoo crew all attack Mandrakk. Using the last of their energies Hal Jordan and the rest of the GL stake Mandrakk in the heart.
back on earth everyone is rebuilding, tearing down Darkseid's statues and destroying his justifier helmets. With Darkseid gone the gods of New Genesis are reborn on Earth-51. The Monitors decide that their continueing presense is harmful to the multiverse and decide to end it. Nix and Weeja share a tender moment before the Nil is erased and Nix awakens as his human counterpart.
Years ago as an old man Anthro finds the rocket ship that the JLA launched. He goes into his cave and passes away in his sleep
A figure arives and picks up the utility belt.
The last page shows Batman covered in shadow and painting his symbol on the cave wall
The Issue is narrated by Lois Lane and is told mainly in flashback. half the story deals with Darkseid, the other deals with Mandrakk.
On the Watchtower everyone prepares a rocket ship holding relics and trophies of the League, in hopes that if reality dies a memory of earths superheroes remain
Renee Montoya and the Supermen of the multiverse pick up Obama Superman and Nubia Wonder Woman.
Superman confronts Darkseid in his bunker while holding the body of Batman. Darkseid tells Superman that he's to late and that he turned his back on his people, and that if Superman kills him everyone infected with the ALE will die (as they are all a part of Darkseid now)
Darkseid has the ALE infected attack Superman as he readies the God gun that Batman shot him with to kill Superman. That's when the Flash's shows up with the Black Racer hot on their tails and they run through Darkseid, sparing Superman.
"The terminal moment is here. I come to all, even you" replies the Black Racer to a shocked Darkseid.
Cut to Aquaman back from the dead fighting the Deep Six.
It appears that Dan Turpin regains control of his body.
Cut to the future as Superman and Supergirl are trying to recreate the Miracle Machine that Brainiac 5 showed him as a way of channeling the Life Equation. Silvana and Luther look at the scematics with aw.
Back in the past. Checkmate castle has been breached as Justifiers and Omac's battle it out. on the watchtower we see Earth covered in Metrons circuit. The Japanese heroes fight the Omac's as Lord Eye shuts down.
Looks like Everyone in the castle made it to the Kamandi universe.
Superman stands over Darkseid and explains that Darkseid is dying from the bullet. Wonderwoman and the rest of the furies show up along with Luther who has gained control of the Secret Society of Supervillians. Luther sides with Superman as Frankenstein fights Wonder Woman, Supergirl takes out Gigantrix, and the army of supervillians take out Batwoman and Catwoman. the virus that Wonderwoman has has no effect on Frankenstein as he's dead and the supervillians has been given a vachine.
Back to the present, an unifected Wonder Woman, Supergirl, and Superman watch over the last remaining humans as they are shrunked and placed in cold storage for a journey to another earth.
As Darkseid weakens and dies his hold on everyone slips, allowing Wonder Woman to break free and chain Darkseid's essense with her Lasso.
As Superman completes the Miracle machine, Darkseid's essense shows up, Superman uses a counter-vibration to finish off Darkseid "Darkseid always hated music"
Mandrakk shows up with Vampire-Ultraman, having just fed on the Radiant and the Spectre and leaving them powerless. Superman uses his own solar powered cells to jump start the Miracle Machine.
The Superman arrive and attack Ultraman.
The miracle macine contacts Nix Uotan who summons Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew. the Supermen, the Green Lanterns, and the Zoo crew all attack Mandrakk. Using the last of their energies Hal Jordan and the rest of the GL stake Mandrakk in the heart.
back on earth everyone is rebuilding, tearing down Darkseid's statues and destroying his justifier helmets. With Darkseid gone the gods of New Genesis are reborn on Earth-51. The Monitors decide that their continueing presense is harmful to the multiverse and decide to end it. Nix and Weeja share a tender moment before the Nil is erased and Nix awakens as his human counterpart.
Years ago as an old man Anthro finds the rocket ship that the JLA launched. He goes into his cave and passes away in his sleep
A figure arives and picks up the utility belt.
The last page shows Batman covered in shadow and painting his symbol on the cave wall
That all makes sense enough for me.
Did the superheroes end up moving everyone to a new Earth, though, or was that plan abandoned?
it was aborted, and while 51 was rebuilt and the New Gods were born there, everyone else who was supposed to go to 51 actually stayed behind on New Earth (earth 0)?
it was aborted, and while 51 was rebuilt and the New Gods were born there, everyone else who was supposed to go to 51 actually stayed behind on New Earth (earth 0)?
God damn....
It helps that Superman managed to save the primary Earth thanks to the Miracle Machine. Still, Earth's a bit messed up still as the latest Birds Of Prey show people cleaning up all the mess made when everyone was caught under the spell of the ALE.
He is stuck in the past. He etches his symbol into the rock, someone in the modern era finds it, and they send, oh, let's say Booster Gold back to get him.
He is stuck in the past. He etches his symbol into the rock, someone in the modern era finds it, and they send, oh, let's say Booster Gold back to get him.
He is stuck in the past. He etches his symbol into the rock, someone in the modern era finds it, and they send, oh, let's say Booster Gold back to get him.
I'm not certain, but I believe you're mistaken:
it looks like he's not even in the past, but rather in the distant future of Earth 51. This is actually a reasonable result of the Omega Sanction. The problem is, how can he send a message back in time?
Personally, I find this kind of time travel in multiple universes irritating and incomprehensible:
whatever future Batman is in, it's purely the current future of the present of Earth 51, which means that if ANYTHING changes the future, Batman ceases to exist since futures aren't just alternate worlds. 52 ditched the concept of a branching multiverse to have ONLY 52 worlds, which means Batman is screwed.
He is stuck in the past. He etches his symbol into the rock, someone in the modern era finds it, and they send, oh, let's say Booster Gold back to get him.
I'm not certain, but I believe you're mistaken:
it looks like he's not even in the past, but rather in the distant future of Earth 51. This is actually a reasonable result of the Omega Sanction. The problem is, how can he send a message back in time?
Personally, I find this kind of time travel in multiple universes irritating and incomprehensible:
whatever future Batman is in, it's purely the current future of the present of Earth 51, which means that if ANYTHING changes the future, Batman ceases to exist since futures aren't just alternate worlds. 52 ditched the concept of a branching multiverse to have ONLY 52 worlds, which means Batman is screwed.
In that newsrama interview linked above Morrison says
The old man dying at the end is Anthro, which would put him in the past. I'm not really serious with my prediction of Batman's return, but that premise was used when Aquaman came back from the dead after the whole Imperiex thing
Ok, so I just read FC7 and I have a shitload of questions. I've read pages 96, 97, and 98 of this thread as well as the various linked articles and I'm still confused on a number of things:
1.) Who is Anthro? His significance as "Old Man" escapes me.
2.) When did Orion beat up Darkseid? I somehow missed that. All I saw was a bunch of chit-chatting between Superman and Darkseid. But I didn't see anyone beat the hell out of him.
3.) What became of Hawkman and Hawkgirl or Kendra or whatever her name is? They were fighting the OMAC, and at the bottom of the page it says "Boom." Does that mean that OMAC exploded and killed them, or what?
4.) How exactly is Aquaman back from the dead? And what significance does it have on the story? He was in exactly 1 panel, and he wasn't doing anything.
5.) Where the hell did Mandrakk come from? He had no previous development in this story and I have no clue who he is, other than what I've learned from these boards. It seems that if he's gonna show up at the end and say "Ta-dah, I'm the new badguy" that we should at least know who he is.
Was there anything more during the event to show him coming back? Other then a throwaway panel with him on a seahorse with the narration going "Oh, hey! Aquaman's back!"
Posts
It wasn't explained, it was just stated, "this is what happened, nevermind the why or the how".
Because he's a God. He (and the concepts he represents, like evil and slavery) is bigger than time, space, and parallel dimensions.[/QUOTE]
So why have we never seen any of these effects in any other story he's been in in the past?
All that sounds pretty crazy and amazing.
It was worth the $2.60 (35% off of $3.99) to see what a giant clusterfuck FC ended up being. It's an undefensible joke of a finish to a shoddy story, period. It does maintain the fine "Crisis tradition" of having shitty stories, though.
Apokolips and New Genesis exist beyond time and space. If you got forcibly ejected from someplace outside the normal universe, why wouldn't you turn up at some random place in the past or future? As for losing his power because he was beaten nearly to death - I mean, isn't that kind of self-explanatory? He barely survived a war that apparently killed almost all the other gods, and he has been removed from the source of his power.
Is this a trick question? It hasn't been seen to happen before!
Situational - I think he's written some wonderful super-hero stories (I'd put ALL-STAR SUPERMAN #6 up as one of the best comics I've read, in 23 years of reading the things), but he's written a lot of horrible super-hero stuff as well (I would place FINAL CRISIS into this category).
These two sentences represent almost everything that's wrong with the entire creepy codependent world of fandom. I literally cannot fathom the profound, almost sublime idiocy of spending time or money reading something you don't like just to have the privilege of lol'ing about it on the Internet. I mean, do you even realize how messed up and cynical that is?
(In other words: Why the fuck did you schmucks by Countdown?)
Not really, no. If I don't like a book, I don't wander into its thread and hurfdurf all over the place.
EDIT: also, what Fencingsax said. But it's not just that. Lots of people go "oh it's okay I just pirated it." No! It's not okay. You wasted valuable minutes of your life and contributed to a toxic culture that's strangling the life out of comics.
COUNTDOWN cannot be explained - it sold 70k units per issue! I'm still convinced that 40-50k of those are sitting in retailer's quarter boxes, somewhere.
Hey, the comic companies are the ones that fucked up, by catering to an older crowd to begin with. You used to be in the minority if you read comics for 20+ years - now, that's the entire fanbase.
but then I read #7 and I honestly have no clue what happened at all.
You're reading Superman Beyond too, right?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
But the older crowd punishes them every time they try something new. Kyle Rayner got DC years of death threats and convention fights and god knows what else. I'm certainly not excusing the companies or the long string of idiotic decisions they've made over the years, but I feel like the relationship between them and the hardcore remaining fanbase can best be described as intensely fucked up and weird.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Yes.
t Owenashi:
I completely agree. And it doesn't help that the entire industry is essentially held hostage by the (approximate) 2500 or so retailers in North America, most of which are every bit the Simpsons Comic Book Guy stereotype. You can have absolutely terrific books get passed by because they aren't part of an event.
But we all know that - I bet every member of this forum has had a favorite book cancelled out from under them due to low sales.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
It's hard to say. The 90s get a (partially deserved) bad rap for the Image/speculator era and the horrid lengths the big two went to try and copy their success, but there was also an audience for new stuff in the 90s that led Marvel and especially DC to take a lot of chances on books that nobody would do nowadays - Young Heroes in Love, Aztek, lots and lots of crazy Vertigo stuff like Shade the Changing Man.
That audience liked Kyle, because his debut made a great entry point into what had been a really continuity-burdened corner of DC. However, a lot of those people got chased away from comics by, as jkyle points out, assy retailers, books they liked getting cancelled out from under them, et cetera. I don't know if we can ever get those people back - I imagine the ones that still read comics probably do so from the sidelines, picking up the occasional trade at Borders.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
That all makes sense enough for me.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
God damn....
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
I am not entirely sure how I felt about the last issue.
I... I don't think I liked it?
That would be horribly lame.
I'm not certain, but I believe you're mistaken:
Personally, I find this kind of time travel in multiple universes irritating and incomprehensible:
In that newsrama interview linked above Morrison says
2.) When did Orion beat up Darkseid? I somehow missed that. All I saw was a bunch of chit-chatting between Superman and Darkseid. But I didn't see anyone beat the hell out of him.
3.) What became of Hawkman and Hawkgirl or Kendra or whatever her name is? They were fighting the OMAC, and at the bottom of the page it says "Boom." Does that mean that OMAC exploded and killed them, or what?
4.) How exactly is Aquaman back from the dead? And what significance does it have on the story? He was in exactly 1 panel, and he wasn't doing anything.
5.) Where the hell did Mandrakk come from? He had no previous development in this story and I have no clue who he is, other than what I've learned from these boards. It seems that if he's gonna show up at the end and say "Ta-dah, I'm the new badguy" that we should at least know who he is.
The Obsidian Age was much better. same type of themes and "channel-zapping" pacing, but a lot more coherent.
look, i'm a huge fan of morrison but even i am going to have trouble defending this one