The Final Crisis Thread

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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Keith wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    i think grant morrison must have done something horrible to you as a child

    i've never seen you make a post that wasn't slandering him in some way

    on that note, why are you stirring up shit in this thread anyway?

    no he totally loves All Star Superman #6 it's one of his favorite issues in his 23 years of reading comics

    you see? twenty three years

    that's longer than you've been alive!
    oh man why have i even been arguing with this guy he totally owns me

    Sars_Boy on
  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    I don't understand why a lasting impact on a line of comics is seen as indicative of an individual comic's quality.

    Ultimatum is set to destroy the Ultimate Universe. Does that make it good?

    Because we would like continuity to matter, knowing that a story changes the medium in which it is told. That makes it more worthwhile. It gives the story more impact.

    [EDIT] By the way, continuity is not the sole determining factor of quality, but it certainly adds to it. Ultimatum is pretty bad because of the horrible, soul-rendering shit that happens in it.

    Except history has shown us no change is permanent and that the virtue of continuity lies solely in scope of a publisher's universe, not in its capacity for change.

    Sure, nothing is permanent, not even life, so you might as well kill yourself now, right? Given the hype and gravitas of Final Crisis, I would like there to be change that lasts longer than the mini itself, even if it will eventually be undone. The illusion of change is enough, but we're not even given that.

    I want Final Crisis to be given weight because I like the concept, even if the execution leaves something to be desired.

    TeaSpoon on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Keith wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    i think grant morrison must have done something horrible to you as a child

    i've never seen you make a post that wasn't slandering him in some way

    on that note, why are you stirring up shit in this thread anyway?

    no he totally loves All Star Superman #6 it's one of his favorite issues in his 23 years of reading comics

    you see? twenty three years

    that's longer than you've been alive!
    oh man why have i even been arguing with this guy he totally owns me

    We're arguing?

    jkylefulton on
    tOkYVT2.jpg
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Final Crisis was an ok story that was very poorly told. If it has a legacy that leads to good stories, that'll give it some more value.

    deadonthestreet on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    Sure, nothing is permanent, not even life, so you might as well kill yourself now, right?

    What the fuck?

    Robos A Go Go on
  • bobgorilabobgorila Registered User
    edited January 2009
    If Bendis's approach to story-telling is to come into a scene late and leave early, then I think Morrison's is to take 5-second snapshots of a number of scenes then throw them at you in no particular order.

    Not that I didn't like it, it was just... a little confusing?

    When a sensible reading order has been determined I shall perhaps try again, under the influence of powerful drugs.

    bobgorila on
    I like my women how I like my coffee.

    Anally.
  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    Sure, nothing is permanent, not even life, so you might as well kill yourself now, right?

    What the fuck?

    I was demonstrating the fallacy of thinking in terms of binary oppositions. Single Story vs. Permanent Change. Was it the entire post you didn't understand or just this one sentence? Because you seem to have ignored the rest of my post.

    TeaSpoon on
  • Futt BuckerFutt Bucker Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Morrison gave the reading order in an interview.

    Final Crisis 1-3
    Superman Beyond 1-2
    Submit
    Final Crisis 4-5
    Batman 682-683
    Final Crisis 6-7

    Futt Bucker on
    My color is black to the blind
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Hahaha. What? No Legion of 3 Worlds? Sweet.

    Crimsondude on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    Sure, nothing is permanent, not even life, so you might as well kill yourself now, right?

    What the fuck?

    I was demonstrating the fallacy of thinking in terms of binary oppositions. Single Story vs. Permanent Change. Was it the entire post you didn't understand or just this one sentence? Because you seem to have ignored the rest of my post.

    Well, that's really not a fair representation of what I was expressing.

    In any case, Batman's "death" and certainly Darkseid's death probably constitute as much of a permanent change as you'll see in any other comic, outside of an origin story of course.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • RansRans Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Hahaha. What? No Legion of 3 Worlds? Sweet.

    nah that counts, it's just not in the Written By Morrison reading order

    i would also argue that the batman issues occur between 4 and 5 rather than 5 and 6 but whatever

    Rans on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited January 2009
    I don't understand why a lasting impact on a line of comics is seen as indicative of an individual comic's quality.

    Seriously. This would make Secret Wars II the greatest comic event of all time.
    (it's actually Secret Wars I :P )

    Jacobkosh on
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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited January 2009
    Morrison apologists, start the line over here please.

    So you're not actually interested in discussing anything, then.

    Jacobkosh on
    rRwz9.gif
  • TankTank Registered User
    edited January 2009
    Okay, so I just read FC#7.

    I don't consider myself to be a Morrison-hater. I loved the hell out of his New X-Men run and All-Star Superman. But when I read FC#7 I had a really hard time understanding what the hell was going on half the time. And from what I have read here on the message boards it seems like the only way to fully understand this series is to read all the other 20 or so comics related to it. I'm not sure if I'm up for that right now. Maybe when the trades come out or when someone makes a outlined explanation of what happened, then I'll give this another look.

    Tank on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    If I understand Superman Beyond and FC #7 correctly, then I really liked Final Crisis as a story. If I didn't, then I still like the story in my head about the power of words and myth.

    Crimsondude on
  • Unco-ordinatedUnco-ordinated Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Ok, so I just read FC7 and I have a shitload of questions. I've read pages 96, 97, and 98 of this thread as well as the various linked articles and I'm still confused on a number of things:

    1.) Who is Anthro? His significance as "Old Man" escapes me.
    2.) When did Orion beat up Darkseid? I somehow missed that. All I saw was a bunch of chit-chatting between Superman and Darkseid. But I didn't see anyone beat the hell out of him.
    3.) What became of Hawkman and Hawkgirl or Kendra or whatever her name is? They were fighting the OMAC, and at the bottom of the page it says "Boom." Does that mean that OMAC exploded and killed them, or what?
    4.) How exactly is Aquaman back from the dead? And what significance does it have on the story? He was in exactly 1 panel, and he wasn't doing anything.
    5.) Where the hell did Mandrakk come from? He had no previous development in this story and I have no clue who he is, other than what I've learned from these boards. It seems that if he's gonna show up at the end and say "Ta-dah, I'm the new badguy" that we should at least know who he is.
    1) Anthro? He's the first boy, the first homo sapien kid that evolved from Neanderthals.
    2) Before the series. Darkseid fell through time and space to earth, Orion followed him and got shot.
    3) They were transported to Earth-51 via boomtube (which explains the boom).
    4) Earlier in the series they said that a new Aquaman had appeared, implying that he'd fallen to earth through a crack in the multiverse, like Overgirl (Nazi Supergirl).
    5) He's actually the first monitor, the one that was in Crisis on Infinite Earths. He was also in Superman Beyond.

    Lastly, I'm fairly certain that Final Crisis took place over a couple of months.

    Anyway, I thought Final Crisis was decent but could've been much better if it'd been a 10-12 issue series. It seemed like Morrison came up with so many ideas for the series that he wasn't really able to explain or even use them all.

    Still better than all the other 'event comics' I've read (unless you include 52 and Sinestro Corps War in that group).

    Unco-ordinated on
    Steam ID - LiquidSolid170 | PSN ID - LiquidSolid
  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    Sure, nothing is permanent, not even life, so you might as well kill yourself now, right?

    What the fuck?

    I was demonstrating the fallacy of thinking in terms of binary oppositions. Single Story vs. Permanent Change. Was it the entire post you didn't understand or just this one sentence? Because you seem to have ignored the rest of my post.

    Well, that's really not a fair representation of what I was expressing.

    In any case, Batman's "death" and certainly Darkseid's death probably constitute as much of a permanent change as you'll see in any other comic, outside of an origin story of course.

    Only if you assume both will stay dead. Given the prominence of both characters in the DCU, there is no doubt they'll return. So I don't think their deaths count as change, permanent or otherwise.

    Anyway, the severity of Final Crisis was portrayed mainly with the scale of events. The whole multiverse was on the verge of collapse. It showed us the last bastions of humanity scattered around the globe, with scenes of destruction in every city of every country; the ALE took everyone. Destruction was near complete. That's how Final Crisis told its story.

    Since Final Crisis takes place in a continuity, the knowledge that two days later the destruction will have been repaired and no one will have remembered the events of Final Crisis detracts from the epic scale Final Crisis wanted to evoke. This is what I meant with change (or, to be more precise, the lack of it), not the death of one or two characters who are sure to return.

    What's even worse is that Morrison's ideas of the multiverse will most likely be abandoned along with the other cool ideas/concepts he introduced. It's like putting the genie back in the bottle.

    Of course, my line of reasoning hinges on the assumption that the destruction will be ignored and that the concept of the New Gods as actual gods, the nature of the ALE, and all the rest of Morrison's crazy talk never again appear in comics. However, I'm fairly confident in this prediction.

    [EDIT] Whoa, huge post, which is just as well since it's going to be my last on the subject. Page 100 too. Yay.

    TeaSpoon on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    At least with Morrison returning to Batman soon we know something will happen with that plot point.

    Bloods End on
  • Unco-ordinatedUnco-ordinated Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    What's even worse is that Morrison's ideas of the multiverse will most likely be abandoned along with the other cool ideas/concepts he introduced. It's like putting the genie back in the bottle.
    It's been pretty much confirmed that Morrison will be writing a multiverse focused book sometime within the next couple of years.

    Unco-ordinated on
    Steam ID - LiquidSolid170 | PSN ID - LiquidSolid
  • OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    Since Final Crisis takes place in a continuity, the knowledge that two days later the destruction will have been repaired and no one will have remembered the events of Final Crisis detracts from the epic scale Final Crisis wanted to evoke. This is what I meant with change (or, to be more precise, the lack of it), not the death of one or two characters who are sure to return.
    I haven't read FC#7 properly myself, but the fact that this month's Birds Of Prey show that there's still crap to clean up like big spray-painted Omega signs shows that things aren't automatically fixed 100%. In a way, it's a nice reverse of what happened with the ending of the First Crisis in which there was this big fight for a few minutes but other then that, no one remembered the first Crisis or the original Multiverse. Now the Final Crisis has everyone knowing that the end of everything was almost upon them if it weren't for their heroes and the heroes of other Earths.

    Owenashi on
  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    What's even worse is that Morrison's ideas of the multiverse will most likely be abandoned along with the other cool ideas/concepts he introduced. It's like putting the genie back in the bottle.
    It's been pretty much confirmed that Morrison will be writing a multiverse focused book sometime within the next couple of years.

    Sure, Morrison will. Share your toys, Morrison. Share them!
    Owenashi wrote: »
    I haven't read FC#7 properly myself, but the fact that this month's Birds Of Prey show that there's still crap to clean up like big spray-painted Omega signs shows that things aren't automatically fixed 100%. In a way, it's a nice reverse of what happened with the ending of the First Crisis in which there was this big fight for a few minutes but other then that, no one remembered the first Crisis or the original Multiverse. Now the Final Crisis has everyone knowing that the end of everything was almost upon them if it weren't for their heroes and the heroes of other Earths.

    Fair point, but it's a matter of scale. The destruction of Final Crisis will take more than a single issue (or arc) to repair, even if every DCU book gives the reconstruction effort a mandatory single issue.

    I realize I'm being unfair. To do Final Crisis justice, all DCU books would have to take place in post-apocalyptic world with rival gangs and society slowly trying to re-establish itself. A world-wide No-Man's Land like in Batman. However, I understand that the nature of comics simply doesn't permit this - it would fuck up established stories and ruin books, not to mention make things very uniform and boring.

    I just wish some books would take the effort to convey how all-encompassing the destruction really was. The discontinuity is hurting my head. But yeah, unworkable, so I'm going to shut up now.

    TeaSpoon on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Last time that happened we got Countdown.

    Really, I'm just still pissed that Booster Gold's book went from him being sheriff of the multiverse, to aimlessly dicking around through time.

    Munch on
  • TairuTairu Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I really liked Final Crisis 7, you guys.
    Honestly.

    I get the feeling that people will be trying to make sense of it for a long time, and thats a good thing.

    Tairu on
  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    JLA in March deals with Final Crisis (probably just Batman's death)
    Oracle's mini-series is about Calculator trying to get remnants of Anti-Life from Oracle (who saw a bit of it when she SHUT DOWN THE INTERNET) to save his daughter
    Flash: Rebirth is about Barry who came back in Final Crisis
    Adventure Comics is about the Legion, who is going through a huge story in FC: Legion of Three Worlds (granted, so far, it has nothing to do with FC)
    The Bat-books and The Outsiders are dealing with the loss of Batman
    Green Lantern will almost definitely pick up strings from Final Crisis (since the Alpha Lantern concept was created by Grant Morrison)
    JSA is dealing with the Marvel Family, who (especially Mary) were big in FC

    Just because we don't have sixteen new series spinning out of it that will be changed/canceled after next year's big event doesn't mean it's being ignored

    Garlic Bread on
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I'm still really curious about the rubik's cube of doom that never did anything

    deadonthestreet on
  • thorpethorpe Registered User
    edited January 2009
    So I just finished reading through FC 1-7, along with Submit, Resist, and Superman Beyond.

    It actually all comes together pretty awesomely.

    thorpe on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Can you explain the rubik's cube, then?

    deadonthestreet on
  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    So did DC do a good thing by letting Morrison helm this thing? And by good thing, I mean, is it good for business? Cause, as a casual comic book fan, and more incline with Marvel to begin with, I could follow Secret Invasion from just the main comic, not to mention that even my friends could be pointed to scans daily and be able to not only get the gist of it, but also known the state of the Marvel U when it ended.

    Can the same be said for DC? My gf asked if it was true that Batman died when FC 6, and if so, how, but she toned out after I started talking about the fourth world and Omega Sanction beams.

    noir_blood on
  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Can you explain the rubik's cube, then?

    Nix Uotan is the rubik's cube. Alternatively, the miracle machine is the rubik's cube. Or Superman.

    TeaSpoon on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    noir_blood wrote: »
    So did DC do a good thing by letting Morrison helm this thing? And by good thing, I mean, is it good for business? Cause, as a casual comic book fan, and more incline with Marvel to begin with, I could follow Secret Invasion from just the main comic, not to mention that even my friends could be pointed to scans daily and be able to not only get the gist of it, but also known the state of the Marvel U when it ended.

    Can the same be said for DC? My gf asked if it was true that Batman died when FC 6, and if so, how, but she toned out after I started talking about the fourth world and Omega Sanction beams.

    Definitely a bad business decision. Just compare its sales to SI's.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited January 2009
    Can you explain the rubik's cube, then?

    Rubik's Cube = motherbox. When he solved it, it transformed crippled dude back into Metron, god of knowledge, and helped Nix Uotan remember his magic word.

    Jacobkosh on
    rRwz9.gif
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited January 2009
    By the way, I am fucking flabbergasted that nobody has mentioned the triumphant return of
    CAPTAIN CARROT!

    Jacobkosh on
    rRwz9.gif
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Can you explain the rubik's cube, then?

    Rubik's Cube = motherbox. When he solved it, it transformed crippled dude back into Metron, god of knowledge, and helped Nix Uotan remember his magic word.

    Whoa! That actually makes sense when you explain it like that.

    Lucascraft on
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Can you explain the rubik's cube, then?

    Rubik's Cube = motherbox. When he solved it, it transformed crippled dude back into Metron, god of knowledge, and helped Nix Uotan remember his magic word.
    That almost makes sense though I don't remember that all happening, I'll believe you

    deadonthestreet on
  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Can you explain the rubik's cube, then?

    Rubik's Cube = motherbox. When he solved it, it transformed crippled dude back into Metron, god of knowledge, and helped Nix Uotan remember his magic word.

    Speaking of motherboxes, I like how everyone had their own interpretation of that the Miracle Machine was, including a bigger version of Motherbox (Darkseid) and more advanced GL technology (Green Lantern). The idea, I guess, is that the Miracle Machine is so powerful that it transcends a single explanation: all the interpretations were true. Or maybe all branches of technology reach the same conclusion.

    TeaSpoon on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited January 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Can you explain the rubik's cube, then?

    Rubik's Cube = motherbox. When he solved it, it transformed crippled dude back into Metron, god of knowledge, and helped Nix Uotan remember his magic word.

    Whoa! That actually makes sense when you explain it like that.

    I cheated a bit. Any time you see a new god with something box-shaped, it's probably a motherbox.

    It's also a simple visual metaphor. The guy is goading Nix Uotan to try and remember his word at the same time that Metron is solving the cube. Nix goes "....Weeja Dell?" at the same time that the cube goes CLICK. It's not really much different than drawing a lightbulb above his head.

    ...especially if in the next panel the bulb exploded and killed the guards.

    Jacobkosh on
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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    That was pretty obvious, dudes

    When he goes "17" the cube goes "PING PING PING"

    that's the motherbox sound

    Garlic Bread on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    With all this whataya do with the main series, what happened in Revelations?

    Bloods End on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    hmm... okay... I actually liked Final Crisis, despite it being a clusterfuck that made my eyes bleed. Honestly, I think I'm kind of a lazy reader and that might be why it was such a mess in my mind. Plus I'm reletively new to DC, and have never grasped the Multiverses or the New Gods...

    but what the fuck is a motherbox?

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited January 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    hmm... okay... I actually liked Final Crisis, despite it being a clusterfuck that made my eyes bleed. Honestly, I think I'm kind of a lazy reader and that might be why it was such a mess in my mind. Plus I'm reletively new to DC, and have never grasped the Multiverses or the New Gods...

    but what the fuck is a motherbox?

    It's basically the ultimate computer, so advanced that it has a soul. All the good New Gods have one. They can manipulate matter, change time and space, and open Boom Tubes (teleport gates to anywhere). Orion's motherbox kept people from seeing his true form (he actually looks like Darkseid, being the latter's son); Mr. Miracle's motherbox helps teleport him out of danger (since he's an escape artist).

    Jacobkosh on
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