Sabs, perhaps the fact that there are only four women in itself is something to consider?
When there's only eight main characters? Not really.
Then why are the lines so dominated by men?
She only counted the lines from the first episode, I would like to see how it would be like if she counted the whole show or other episodes. The first episode River is introduced late, and can't even form coherent sentences yet, and all the side characters except for one were male.
If you did it for the Heart of Gold episode for you would most likely have female lines outnumbering the male lines.
Okay, so it should be a 4:3 ratio then, not a 4:1 - especially if it's the first episode where you want to introduce the main characters and the thrust of the show. Also, all the side characters are male. Chances are that if you did this for most episodes you would find similar data. Male gaze, etc.
Sabs, perhaps the fact that there are only four women in itself is something to consider?
When there's only eight main characters? Not really.
Then why are the lines so dominated by men?
She only counted the lines from the first episode, I would like to see how it would be like if she counted the whole show or other episodes. The first episode River is introduced late, and can't even form coherent sentences yet, and all the side characters except for one were male.
If you did it for the Heart of Gold episode for you would most likely have female lines outnumbering the male lines.
Okay, so it should be a 4:3 ratio then, not a 4:1 - especially if it's the first episode where you want to introduce the main characters and the thrust of the show. Also, all the side characters are male. Chances are that if you did this for most episodes you would find similar data. Male gaze, etc.
Not all the side characters are male, but a lot are yea. But with all the side characters in the show its odd how you are connecting the ratio of lines to just the main characters, sure its easier that way but doesnt make it right.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
I think Podly might be having some fun with us ITT...
Not at all. Just because she has a tremendously radical stance doesn't make her ultimate thesis wrong - that Firefly is a subtle Ideological Manifestation of the misogynistic west.
Probably one of the most insufferable feminists who's opinion I have had the displeasure of reading. I have to just first state that I am in a healthy relationship as of now and have complete respect for women as equals, and no I do not rape my girlfriend. So in accordance to this extremely misguided man-hater's opinion that sex = evil, I mean, why even continue to propagate our species? Unless we establish an Amazonian society here and now, we might as well just repress that natural urge and let stagnation take it's course, as our continued survival is definitely not worth the price of someone's imagined "rape". What's even more aggravating is the comments posted at the bottom, which are arguably one sided due to her censuring of conflicting opinions (except for the one case of a supposed "pro pornographer"). These comments range from praise of her "well articulated essay" to some pretty vile defamation of Joss's character. Well articulated? As a member of the academic strata I can tell you that in no certain terms is a paper that resorts to such narrow minded opinion, statement of outlandish "facts and probabilities", as well as a resortment to profanity, at all a well articulated article, and is instead a wildly spinning vortex of self hypocrisy that is as far from professional as possible.
Beren39 on
Go, Go, EXCALIBUR! - Trent Varsity Swim Team 2009, better watch out for me Phelps!
I think Podly might be having some fun with us ITT...
Not at all. Just because she has a tremendously radical stance doesn't make her ultimate thesis wrong - that Firefly is a subtle Ideological Manifestation of the misogynistic west.
see, you say you're serious, and then you say something that's almost impossible to take seriously. so i gotta say, no matter what, you're pretty impressive in this thread
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
Podly, are you actually trying to defend this lady or what? I directly countered one of your points and you dismissed it as if you were just talking about your opinion of Whedon's writing ability. But then you say shit like this:
I think Podly might be having some fun with us ITT...
Not at all. Just because she has a tremendously radical stance doesn't make her ultimate thesis wrong - that Firefly is a subtle Ideological Manifestation of the misogynistic west.
So either you are trying to defend her with your comments or you aren't. If you're just going to pussy out when someone responds to you, don't bother.
Jesus. Reading the comments on the link is like feeling my brain melt. The intellectual bankruptcy is mind-numbing.
Chake99 on
Hic Rhodus, Hic Salta.
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Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
edited March 2008
Oh ok well that honeymoon thing makes sense then.
@Kagera: It has nothing to do with statistics. It has to do with the frame of representation. If, in the main characters, there are equal numbers of men and women, but the mode of presentation is shown through the male perspective, then you have to wonder if the women are really 'Main" at all.
Scrubs is a good example against this. JD is, by far the main character on the show. However, the core group of JD, carla, turk, and elliot, have pretty much similar numbers of lines and the show is progressed equally through all the characters.
@Drez: in a thread on misogyny, it might not be wise to use a phrase like "pussy out"
I kind of want to post "You will never be happy or satisfied with your life, and you will die alone and shivering" on that site, but you need to be a member.
I like to think they are equal in the show, espcially since its not like the girls are the ones who are always getting into trouble and the males are the ones who have to save them.
@Drez: in a thread on misogyny, it might not be wise to use a phrase like "pussy out"
This isn't about me being a misogynist. This is about Whedon being a misogynist. You are aware of the scope of this thread, right? I mean you basically just told me that your comments about the amount of women represented in dialogue have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Whedon is a misogynist and yet you continue to discuss this, so I have to wonder what you are doing in this thread at all.
I'm definitely not a radical feminist - it would be hard, since I'm a man, and I'm not that ashamed about it - but the radical definitions of rape and the radical interpretations of just how far patriarchy and female subordination reach into our culture and the way we interact aren't just crazy talk. I disagree with the blogger in question, mostly, but Joss Whedon is definitely not a feminist, in my opinion, and the sexism that can be found in his work is all the more disturbing because he thinks he is. People like this blogger are working with perfectly valid tools, but their only crime is taking it way too far.
@Drez: in a thread on misogyny, it might not be wise to use a phrase like "pussy out"
This isn't about me being a misogynist. This is about Whedon being a misogynist. You are aware of the scope of this thread, right? I mean you basically just told me that your comments about the amount of women represented in dialogue have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Whedon is a misogynist and yet you continue to discuss this, so I have to wonder what you are doing in this thread at all.
I'm just pointing out that all the DUMBEST THING EVER posts are pretty unfounded.
I'm definitely not a radical feminist - it would be hard, since I'm a man, and I'm not that ashamed about it - but the radical definitions of rape and the radical interpretations of just how far patriarchy and female subordination reach into our culture and the way we interact aren't just crazy talk. I disagree with the blogger in question, mostly, but Joss Whedon is definitely not a feminist, in my opinion, and the sexism that can be found in his work is all the more disturbing because he thinks he is. People like this blogger are working with perfectly valid tools, but their only crime is taking it way too far.
That's a good point. I don't think Whedon is either a feminist or a misogynist, or at least not pointedly either. I think he's just a writer and accidentally displays one or the other which is up to interpretation. I don't think there is any feminist or misogynistic agenda in his writing whatsoever.
My feeling about this blog situation, though, is that radicalism is a very short path to failure. Even if you have a good point, you end up doing two things:
1) Rallying other crazy, radical people.
2) Alienating everyone else.
If the goal is to "wake up" the world, then radicalism on just about any conceivable topic seems to be the worst way to go about it.
I'm definitely not a radical feminist - it would be hard, since I'm a man, and I'm not that ashamed about it - but the radical definitions of rape and the radical interpretations of just how far patriarchy and female subordination reach into our culture and the way we interact aren't just crazy talk. I disagree with the blogger in question, mostly, but Joss Whedon is definitely not a feminist, in my opinion, and the sexism that can be found in his work is all the more disturbing because he thinks he is. People like this blogger are working with perfectly valid tools, but their only crime is taking it way too far.
i think you can find just about anything in virtually any context if you're given enough material. if you pick and choose and then blow up things to a ridiculous degree, then yeah, it's gonna look like the evidence supports your theory. what's hilarious about this lady is that even after doing that, she still looks like a crazy person.
how can you take any of that seriously, even a little bit?
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
I am more concerned about the kneejerk loathing and dismissal and contempt of any expression of radical feminism, without bothering to even investigate the ideas, that I see in this thread and in any discussion of these issues, than I am with radical feminists themselves.
@Drez: in a thread on misogyny, it might not be wise to use a phrase like "pussy out"
This isn't about me being a misogynist. This is about Whedon being a misogynist. You are aware of the scope of this thread, right? I mean you basically just told me that your comments about the amount of women represented in dialogue have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Whedon is a misogynist and yet you continue to discuss this, so I have to wonder what you are doing in this thread at all.
I'm just pointing out that all the DUMBEST THING EVER posts are pretty unfounded.
And I'm just pointing out that you seem to curl up into a ball whenever someone directly responds to one of your points which kind of weakens your entire presence in this debate.
I think the issue here is chauvinism rather then simply misogynistic concepts. She is viewing the human state as a duality of two special interest groups, females and males, rather then the working cohesive unit that is needed for a species to function as intended. Whedon is being accused as an extreme pro-male (male chauvinist) while she is championing the female side (female chauvinist). In no way is this a correct view despite whatever sexism exists in society.
Beren39 on
Go, Go, EXCALIBUR! - Trent Varsity Swim Team 2009, better watch out for me Phelps!
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I am more concerned about the kneejerk loathing and dismissal and contempt of any expression of radical feminism, without bothering to even investigate the ideas, that I see in this thread and in any discussion of these issues, than I am with radical feminists themselves.
I think radicalism should always be rejected unless there is some kind of revolutionary military end. Which I hope to God isn't some kind of hidden aspect to the radical feminist agenda.
Idealistic radicalism is absolutely worthless and it should be stomped out whenever possible. It ends up hurting movements more than it helps.
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Okay, so it should be a 4:3 ratio then, not a 4:1 - especially if it's the first episode where you want to introduce the main characters and the thrust of the show. Also, all the side characters are male. Chances are that if you did this for most episodes you would find similar data. Male gaze, etc.
Not all the side characters are male, but a lot are yea. But with all the side characters in the show its odd how you are connecting the ratio of lines to just the main characters, sure its easier that way but doesnt make it right.
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Cause actions speak louder then words.
Oh wait.
3DS: 2852-6809-9411
God i hope so
No. But four to one, when I am introducing the show and its characters? Sounds like shitty writing, to me.
I'm clinging to this hope.
Not at all. Just because she has a tremendously radical stance doesn't make her ultimate thesis wrong - that Firefly is a subtle Ideological Manifestation of the misogynistic west.
I never knew how good a show's writing was depended on the number of lines.
3DS: 2852-6809-9411
....yeah..... I don't see how a HONEYMOON episode is a strong case against the argument.
see, you say you're serious, and then you say something that's almost impossible to take seriously. so i gotta say, no matter what, you're pretty impressive in this thread
You haven't seen the Out of Gas episode I am guessing. :P
3DS: 2852-6809-9411
Does this go by racial lines too? Maybe religious lines? Class lines? Species lines, gotta give the dog a fair share too?
Is this a thread about shitty writing or that Joss Whedon is the antichrist? It's the latter, Podly.
So either you are trying to defend her with your comments or you aren't. If you're just going to pussy out when someone responds to you, don't bother.
@Kagera: It has nothing to do with statistics. It has to do with the frame of representation. If, in the main characters, there are equal numbers of men and women, but the mode of presentation is shown through the male perspective, then you have to wonder if the women are really 'Main" at all.
Scrubs is a good example against this. JD is, by far the main character on the show. However, the core group of JD, carla, turk, and elliot, have pretty much similar numbers of lines and the show is progressed equally through all the characters.
@Drez: in a thread on misogyny, it might not be wise to use a phrase like "pussy out"
3DS: 2852-6809-9411
This isn't about me being a misogynist. This is about Whedon being a misogynist. You are aware of the scope of this thread, right? I mean you basically just told me that your comments about the amount of women represented in dialogue have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Whedon is a misogynist and yet you continue to discuss this, so I have to wonder what you are doing in this thread at all.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I'm just pointing out that all the DUMBEST THING EVER posts are pretty unfounded.
Yes, sarcasm. It's valid method of rebuttal.
Also, Podly does make a fine devils advocate. Always has.
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
That's a good point. I don't think Whedon is either a feminist or a misogynist, or at least not pointedly either. I think he's just a writer and accidentally displays one or the other which is up to interpretation. I don't think there is any feminist or misogynistic agenda in his writing whatsoever.
My feeling about this blog situation, though, is that radicalism is a very short path to failure. Even if you have a good point, you end up doing two things:
1) Rallying other crazy, radical people.
2) Alienating everyone else.
If the goal is to "wake up" the world, then radicalism on just about any conceivable topic seems to be the worst way to go about it.
I think its genuine, espcially with the comments and the blogger talking to people who read it.
3DS: 2852-6809-9411
i think you can find just about anything in virtually any context if you're given enough material. if you pick and choose and then blow up things to a ridiculous degree, then yeah, it's gonna look like the evidence supports your theory. what's hilarious about this lady is that even after doing that, she still looks like a crazy person.
how can you take any of that seriously, even a little bit?
And I'm just pointing out that you seem to curl up into a ball whenever someone directly responds to one of your points which kind of weakens your entire presence in this debate.
She was in a few of the flashbacks too. But yeah, during most of the current action she was out cold.
Whoop, guess that means Whedon likes to bludgeon his wife into unconsciousness with... fireballs.
I think radicalism should always be rejected unless there is some kind of revolutionary military end. Which I hope to God isn't some kind of hidden aspect to the radical feminist agenda.
Idealistic radicalism is absolutely worthless and it should be stomped out whenever possible. It ends up hurting movements more than it helps.