David Mack: Professional Tracer (minor New Avengers spoilers)

2

Posts

  • HawkstoneHawkstone The state of intoxicationRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I admit I did not read the issue...if its litterally every page and from the same comic or even a handful of comics...that really stretches the benifit of the doubt until it damn near breaks off.

    Hawkstone on
    Inside of a dog...it's too dark to read.
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Fedora wrote: »
    This is...ugh, oh my god. Scumbag worthy, really.

    Photo referencing is one thing, completely tracing an image with little to no changes from the original and then claiming it as original or as some sort of "homage" reeks of a complete lack of integrity.

    And jesus christ, from what I can tell he completely copy/pasted an Adam Hughes comic, completely. There were more panels lightboxed then not. He got paid for that, he received monetary compensation from deliberately stealing someone else's work and then claiming it as his own.

    And then he has the audacity, when caught mind you, to claim it as a "homage".

    From the examples given it's obvious the only amount of effort he spent on the book was cropping the images stolen to fit various frames.

    Think about it like this. Adam Hughes spent time establishing the panel layouts, creating a fluid movement between panels, first using roughs and then more detailed drawings. Then he most likely set up models, took his own photo reference, researched other reference elements (backgrounds, objects, etc) and created established drawings from those. In his own unique style. He then got paid for this time and effort.

    David Mack, simply copied the finished product that Hughes did, something that most definitely took less time and effort, and also got paid for it.

    the panel layouts were not copied, unless I totally misread what you were saying.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Sentry wrote: »
    Virral wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    except they aren't identical.

    except they are.

    except they aren't.

    Maleev_Mack.jpg

    There is no denying that the pose is pretty much identical, but that does NOT look like a direct trace from one page to the other. There are plenty of differences, and the similarities are just the pose and the fact that it's the same character both times. I think they are reaching with the Wolverine one, he isn't even really in the same pose (it's not a crime to have people standing upright you know).

    And if, as he said, the intention was to mimic classic poses from other DD artists then that explains why he "stole" the pose as closely as possible. It wasn't a good idea, at least not without acknowledging it somehow, but I do accept that explanation and actually think it's an interesting idea.

    That said, if I'd known this was old news I wouldn't have bothered posting. This is the first I'd heard about it.

    Let me know when your brain has found a rationalization for this.

    No, really... I'm all fucking ears over here.

    Umm, yeah. You were talking about one specific example, and I responded to it.

    EDIT: Although not helped that the image I linked to is not displaying, which should have made it clear what I was actually talking about.
    Sentry wrote: »
    Wow... if you can't tell the difference between mimicking poses and TRACING figures, then I feel completely sorry for you.

    That one pic of Daredevil even has guidelines that show it is a freaking trace... the lines intersect the picture at the exact same place each time. that's one hell of a coincidence, no?

    But hey, if you don't care, fine. I don't particularly care. But don't go accepting such a pathetic explanation in light of the evidence. Have a little more self respect then that.

    Noone is going to deny that wedding catalogue or the Alicia Keys picture were copied too closely, it's pretty blatant and really not cool. But I don't have the same problems with the specific example you chose to use that you do, in fact I disagree that this particular example was a trace at all.

    I like the concept he was going for as explained, and I have no problem with the execution either... I just thing it was handled incredibly poorly when anyone could have guessed teh interwebs would catch on.

    But I totally agree on those cover images traced from copyrighted photo references, that's not acceptable at all.

    Virral on
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  • KyleWPetersonKyleWPeterson Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Where does Adam Hughes even figure in to it then? How does that work with his concept?

    Kyle

    KyleWPeterson on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    If you read his concept he explains, you may not buy it or agree, but it's adressed.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    If you read his concept he explains, you may not buy it or agree, but it's adressed.

    I dunno...

    Did anyone ever hear Vanilla Ice explain how his Ice Ice Baby riff is NOT a blatant rip off of Queen and David Bowies "Under Pressure?"

    I got the same vibe from both "explanations."

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • LuxLux Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The idea of using iconic Daredevil images for a Skrull posing as him is a great, cool storytelling idea.

    But it doesn't explain Echo at all.

    Lux on
  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Has Mack ever done anything like this before? I don't mean using the odd unauthorised photo reference, but basically creating an entire book using references from other peoples works?

    I ask because if he has, then the explanation is total BS and I'll join the haters. But if he hasn't, and this is unusual for him, then I don't think it's that unreasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt (considering he couldn't reveal the reasons for it without spoiling the whole point of the book).

    Virral on
    2vlp7o9.jpg
  • KyleWPetersonKyleWPeterson Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Who know? Figuring that out could potentially take years. Whoever found that Gen 13 comic sure got lucky.

    Kyle

    KyleWPeterson on
  • AngryAngry The glory I had witnessed was just a sleight of handRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    this is the first i've ever heard of mack doing something like this. he created echo, i doubt he really needs help drawing her. since this is the first time i'm going to just believe him and save my frothing hate mongering for if this becomes greg landish.

    Angry on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Angry wrote: »
    this is the first i've ever heard of mack doing something like this. he created echo, i doubt he really needs help drawing her. since this is the first time i'm going to just believe him and save my frothing hate mongering for if this becomes greg landish.

    I don't get it... is this a medium thing? I can't think of a single other profession where someone would be able to get away with this. Why is it okay in comics?

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sentry wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    this is the first i've ever heard of mack doing something like this. he created echo, i doubt he really needs help drawing her. since this is the first time i'm going to just believe him and save my frothing hate mongering for if this becomes greg landish.

    I don't get it... is this a medium thing? I can't think of a single other profession where someone would be able to get away with this. Why is it okay in comics?
    Hawkstone wrote: »
    Not that my opinion counts for a ton more than anybody elses but I am a collegiately trained artist and took an ethics in art class...so here it goes. How plaigarism in art works as I understand it law wise is that you can borrow, steal, trace etc as needed to make a work as long as you can argue (and here is the huge frickin grey area) a significant creative departure from the initial piece. From what I see of Macks work if you take most any of these pictures as a single entity he would be guilty of plaigarism because you can clearly see the reference work (which isnt his) is to similar to the end result. Now the reason I say he is resoundingly not guilty is that the indivdual drawings are part of a much larger whole that is the comic book from cover to cover. In this case he is taking multiple images and re-arranging them to create a new narrative and something new creatively despite the individual pieces being lifted. Think of it as a very highbrow collage, a warholesque approach to comics or like sampling to make a song. Do I think he should be clear that this is his process for creating his art, undoubtedly. But I dont discredit the fact that what he creates as a whole work (that being the entire comic book) is not without artistic value and since there is no royalty law for comics the law wouldnt either.

    Nogs on
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  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Mack used the same Maleev drawing of DD 4 times in 2 pages.

    Fucking Hack


    Also the Bendis boards is a joke. I called Mack a Hack, was told to apologize, ignored it, and then banned for it.

    Algertman on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Who know? Figuring that out could potentially take years. Whoever found that Gen 13 comic sure got lucky.

    Kyle

    Turns out that Hughes Gen13 books swiped all the time.

    also
    mackcopybmh3.jpg

    Spoiler for Pic, no actual spoilers

    Algertman on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Dammit, Hugh Jackman! Stop tracing your face!

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Algertman wrote: »
    Mack used the same Maleev drawing of DD 4 times in 2 pages.

    Fucking Hack


    Also the Bendis boards is a joke. I called Mack a Hack, was told to apologize, ignored it, and then banned for it.

    someone didn't read the rules of the board before they posted

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Lets take a look at the wonderful contributions Algertman made to the Bendis board.
    please tell me you people are joking

    this whole board is just living ego boost for bendis

    Yeah talk shit about Newsarama on here, cause none of you have the balls to take Bendis Dick out of your mouth and post it over there. JinxWorld is laughing stock of ComicBook forums, you people just don't know it yet, while every other place does. How laughable all of this is. Damn waste of space this board is
    Spidey is gay

    he's had sex with Thor

    Tony Stark is gay. He's like those Republican politicians who also have to make sure people know they are straight but end up gay. Telling you, somebody is gonna walk in on him and Clor going at it in a SHIELD Carrier bathroom.

    Wolverine is a virgin. He also masturbates to hentai.

    New Avengers would get their asses beat by Wonder Woman. Mainly because they would be to busy standing around do nothing the whole time. Except Dr. Strange as for some reasons his powers won't work...again

    I for one am shocked that they had the gall to ban you.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Algertman wrote: »
    Mack used the same Maleev drawing of DD 4 times in 2 pages.

    Fucking Hack


    Also the Bendis boards is a joke. I called Mack a Hack, was told to apologize, ignored it, and then banned for it.

    someone didn't read the rules of the board before they posted

    Sorry, but I'm not about to sit around on a message board suck the dick of some hack tracer.

    Algertman on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Lets take a look at the wonderful contributions Algertman made to the Bendis board.
    please tell me you people are joking

    this whole board is just living ego boost for bendis

    Yeah talk shit about Newsarama on here, cause none of you have the balls to take Bendis Dick out of your mouth and post it over there. JinxWorld is laughing stock of ComicBook forums, you people just don't know it yet, while every other place does. How laughable all of this is. Damn waste of space this board is
    Spidey is gay

    he's had sex with Thor

    Tony Stark is gay. He's like those Republican politicians who also have to make sure people know they are straight but end up gay. Telling you, somebody is gonna walk in on him and Clor going at it in a SHIELD Carrier bathroom.

    Wolverine is a virgin. He also masturbates to hentai.

    New Avengers would get their asses beat by Wonder Woman. Mainly because they would be to busy standing around do nothing the whole time. Except Dr. Strange as for some reasons his powers won't work...again

    I for one am shocked that they had the gall to ban you.

    Change the subject all you want, Mack is tracer and he and Land both deserve to be ran out of the business.

    Algertman on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Lets take a look at the wonderful contributions Algertman made to the Bendis board.
    please tell me you people are joking

    this whole board is just living ego boost for bendis

    Yeah talk shit about Newsarama on here, cause none of you have the balls to take Bendis Dick out of your mouth and post it over there. JinxWorld is laughing stock of ComicBook forums, you people just don't know it yet, while every other place does. How laughable all of this is. Damn waste of space this board is
    Spidey is gay

    he's had sex with Thor

    Tony Stark is gay. He's like those Republican politicians who also have to make sure people know they are straight but end up gay. Telling you, somebody is gonna walk in on him and Clor going at it in a SHIELD Carrier bathroom.

    Wolverine is a virgin. He also masturbates to hentai.

    New Avengers would get their asses beat by Wonder Woman. Mainly because they would be to busy standing around do nothing the whole time. Except Dr. Strange as for some reasons his powers won't work...again
    I for one am shocked that they had the gall to ban you.
    well I mean that first one is just straight up fact

    i guess the second one is kind of bad yeah

    Sars_Boy on
  • KyleWPetersonKyleWPeterson Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Yikes. Although I do kind of agree about creator boards like that. Everyone's there just to play the role of kiss-ass.

    Kyle

    KyleWPeterson on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Lets take a look at the wonderful contributions Algertman made to the Bendis board.
    please tell me you people are joking

    this whole board is just living ego boost for bendis

    Yeah talk shit about Newsarama on here, cause none of you have the balls to take Bendis Dick out of your mouth and post it over there. JinxWorld is laughing stock of ComicBook forums, you people just don't know it yet, while every other place does. How laughable all of this is. Damn waste of space this board is
    Spidey is gay

    he's had sex with Thor

    Tony Stark is gay. He's like those Republican politicians who also have to make sure people know they are straight but end up gay. Telling you, somebody is gonna walk in on him and Clor going at it in a SHIELD Carrier bathroom.

    Wolverine is a virgin. He also masturbates to hentai.

    New Avengers would get their asses beat by Wonder Woman. Mainly because they would be to busy standing around do nothing the whole time. Except Dr. Strange as for some reasons his powers won't work...again
    I for one am shocked that they had the gall to ban you.
    well I mean that first one is just straight up fact

    i guess the second one is kind of bad yeah
    Second one was meant as a joke in keeping with certain aspects of the thread.

    Algertman on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    as long as you're trolling the bendis boards I have no qualms

    Sars_Boy on
  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    edited April 2008
    yeah let's not be talking about trolling other message boards please

    DJ Eebs on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    mmm yeah probably a good idea

    sorry geebs

    Sars_Boy on
  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    can we talk about trolling this board

    Garlic Bread on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Every post on this board is a troll.

    Bloods End on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Lets take a look at the wonderful contributions Algertman made to the Bendis board.
    please tell me you people are joking

    this whole board is just living ego boost for bendis

    Yeah talk shit about Newsarama on here, cause none of you have the balls to take Bendis Dick out of your mouth and post it over there. JinxWorld is laughing stock of ComicBook forums, you people just don't know it yet, while every other place does. How laughable all of this is. Damn waste of space this board is
    Spidey is gay

    he's had sex with Thor

    Tony Stark is gay. He's like those Republican politicians who also have to make sure people know they are straight but end up gay. Telling you, somebody is gonna walk in on him and Clor going at it in a SHIELD Carrier bathroom.

    Wolverine is a virgin. He also masturbates to hentai.

    New Avengers would get their asses beat by Wonder Woman. Mainly because they would be to busy standing around do nothing the whole time. Except Dr. Strange as for some reasons his powers won't work...again
    I for one am shocked that they had the gall to ban you.

    Woah woah woah.
    This shit is out of line!

    The Muffin Man on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    well, this thread has derailed slightly.

    Regardless of the legality of what Mack did, why do more people not find this completely distasteful? I mean... the guy traces a bunch of shit, then passes off a nonsense explanation about doing because DD was a skrull? Well, super, then why trace freaking Ecco? She may be his creation, but it's clear he traced the shit out of her for this last Avengers book. Why aren't more people angry about this? I mean, imagine if your work was traced and slapped into a new book, wouldn't that upset you?

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited April 2008
    What you call a nonsense explanation other people accept on face value?

    The real answer to your question is probably a broken spirit. People are so burnt out complaining about Greg Land doing shit like this over and over and over that they don't have it in them to stay angry anymore?

    Virral on
    2vlp7o9.jpg
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sentry wrote: »
    Well, super, then why trace freaking Ecco?

    Maybe you should read all of his explenation instead of skimming it before you ask questions like this.

    I'm sure you still won't agree, but he covered this if you bother to look.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    well i mean it's a pretty awful explanation

    I mean, I get the Daredevil one, that makes sense, and it's kind of clever

    but I don't recall Echo ever meeting the girl from Gen13, so i'm failing to see how copying all her poses is an effective storytelling method

    Sars_Boy on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    well i mean it's a pretty awful explanation

    I mean, I get the Daredevil one, that makes sense, and it's kind of clever

    but I don't recall Echo ever meeting the girl from Gen13, so i'm failing to see how copying all her poses is an effective storytelling method

    I also didn't realize that copying a characters look is somehow the same as copying their style.

    I mean... I can approximate a Van Gough without tracing it...

    Well, I mean, I can't... but I imagine someone could.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sentry wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    well i mean it's a pretty awful explanation

    I mean, I get the Daredevil one, that makes sense, and it's kind of clever

    but I don't recall Echo ever meeting the girl from Gen13, so i'm failing to see how copying all her poses is an effective storytelling method

    I also didn't realize that copying a characters look is somehow the same as copying their style.

    I mean... I can approximate a Van Gough without tracing it...

    Well, I mean, I can't... but I imagine someone could.
    not the picture i was referencing at all

    try the ones with the chick in the green swim suit

    Sars_Boy on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think Van Gogh would be pissed.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • smokmnkysmokmnky Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Just ignore Algertman like I did. It makes these boards that much more enjoyable.

    smokmnky on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    well i mean it's a pretty awful explanation

    I mean, I get the Daredevil one, that makes sense, and it's kind of clever

    but I don't recall Echo ever meeting the girl from Gen13, so i'm failing to see how copying all her poses is an effective storytelling method

    I also didn't realize that copying a characters look is somehow the same as copying their style.

    I mean... I can approximate a Van Gough without tracing it...

    Well, I mean, I can't... but I imagine someone could.
    not the picture i was referencing at all

    try the ones with the chick in the green swim suit

    Hmm... I clicked through all the links (I think) and can't find the one you're referring to. I still think mine works, also, in that the very notion of Echo imitating someone by shapeshifting to look exactly like them is complete nonsense.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I.....what?

    Sars_Boy on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    KVW wrote: »
    I like Mack as much as the next guy and I don't like lumping him in with guys like Greg Land for the ol' tracing / plagerism category, but the entire issue was one big cut and paste affair. I could have "drawn" this issue of New Avengers based on how much he stole from other artists. There was no "referencing" done here. He traced the images and changed a few lines for different clothing or opened a hand or closed a mouth. That is not what original work is called. It's stealing and he deserves just about everything he gets for trying to pull something like this off. It doesn't end with his cover swipe. Check out these images from the entire issue.
    1207009279964gw0.jpg

    1207004646579cq9.jpg

    1207005058647at9.jpg

    1207005244644dq4.jpg

    1207004856213op6.jpg

    1207005324812br8.jpg

    1207005182942tx5.jpg

    1207005494347ox2.jpg

    1207005345723yr3.jpg

    Most are from the same issue of Gen 13. He didn't even try to find other's to "reference".
    are you saying that none of these are valid examples of Mack copying someones work?

    I fail to see how these have anything to do with Mack's "theme"

    Sars_Boy on
  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    edited April 2008
    sars I think he's saying that those are examples of him copying someone's work

    I will say that I liked the panel layouts of the issue, even though I'm uncomfortable with the content of the panels

    DJ Eebs on
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